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In this episode, we chat about the Komoot acquisition and what it’s likely to mean, as well as, of course, the beginnings of the Garmin Connect+ fallout. An iceberg we’re likely only at the tip of.
0:00 Intro
3:08 Komoot Acquisition
14:54 Garmin Connect+ Fire
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Good in-person pod. I had the same sentiment as you regarding Connect+. I’m on the free trial too but don’t like or use any of the “premium” features and see no reason to extend beyond the free trial. The AI Insights feature takes up valuable home screen real estate, displacing actual important data, so Connect is actually better without the “premium” AI feature.
Good listen, thanks.
Is Garmin the only company that I can mount my watch as a drive a rip the training file from the drive manually? Experience with Sunnto and Polar was that I had to use their SW to get my data. Unsure about Corus
Always fun when you are physically colocated.
Even more so when I had an immature chuckle when you said you “brought the wind”.
I’ve been a Garmin user since the Garmin Forerunner 410, and after I moved to the Garmin fenix line. In between, I tried 1 Suunto, 1 Polar and an Apple Watch, but I always retuned to Garmin because, despite the higher cost, always felt that I was getting enough back. The training programs, the route planner, the workouts, etc.etc.
My concern is that the subscription will fail because the value proposition is very bad, and Garmin will think “‘we need to put more features behind the paywall, so that people will pay for it”. Similar to what Strava did, where they started to put features that were until then free, behind the subscription.
But if Garmin changes that, I won’t buy another one. I don’t know what will be the next one, time will tell.
Let me repeat – and Ray please keep repeating: we pay a Massive premium to buy a Garmin watch. When you say”these features are worth like $25 a year” we already paid that in the watch price. So no, thank you.
I am just looking for my new workout watch. Until recently, Garmin was first in line, then Suunto/Polar. I’m currently using a Polar, so I wanted to try something new. After the action with the new subscription, Garmin dropped out of the race. Emerging news of underdeveloped software+subscription idea (even if it is optional)=I’m sorry Garmin didn’t. Thus, the next one will be Suunto.
My concern is the future. Now all future features will just be pushed in this plan.
I recently got the Fenix 7 pro. The only reason I got this is because of the golf features. As soon as another brand gets some quality golf features I’m jumping ship.
What Garmin really needs for connect+ is not compelling features, but a clear commitment that it will remain a feature bucket exclusively for stuff that has significant per user cost (vs development costs that remain the same for 10 and for 10000 users). As in SMS for those new livetrack features, ML server time (“ai”) that’s orders of magnitude more expensive than just running a few formulas for e.g. updating a power curve, or third party licenses.
Then it’s all “if you want some of those features, we’re happy to sell, but if you don’t we won’t consider you second class customer”. If this commitment is held (and *believably* held!), the conversation can’t be “are the addon features worth it”. That would be entirely up to the individual buyer. But as soon as the conversation does move to “are the features good enough to pay” it becomes the game of enshittification. Where Garmin is almost forced to move cheap but *useful* features (e.g. power curve used as an example before) out of the free tier. Even people who would never start a subscription won’t think too fondly of a company that gives them awesome stuff on the free tier but has a premium tier that looks like a joke. A weak premium tier makes them look like losers. They need to avoid getting perceived through free/premium lense in the first place.
I could probably be ok with the paid subscription idea if they’d at least included 3-5 years of GC+ with their premium watches like Fenix, Epic and Marq. It is insane to pay $1K+ for a fitness watch and still not get access to everything.
I imagine a lot more of casual athletes will be taking a good long look at AW Ultra 3 this fall.
Would have liked to see true AI training from Garmin Connect+, like Xert or similar. If not taking that approach, maybe focus on integration and advanced training metrics. It’s so hard these days to get all of my activity data into one single platform that has solid fitness and activity metrics. Everyone’s walling off their gardens. Unfortunately, Garmin did neither, so it’s a no from me. We’ll see how their feature development progresses from here.
Is there a free and manufacturer agnostic platform where it would be possible to store and perform simple analysis of training data.
My wife and I have Garmin wathces and edge units. We are satisfied with GC currently, but I might choose a Polar, when my watch dies. We do not need anything fancy: simple graphs, total distance in a week, maps, etc…
I do not rule out self hosting (have a bit of experience), but the system should be easy to maintain and more importantly easy to use.
Strava is free and device agnostic, in terms of what you’re looking for in basic data analysis.
May be import everything to Golden Cheetah.
Intervals.icu
Garmin has become far too big
and they will exploit this more and more.
I hope many old Garmin users now buy the Polar M3 and the Suunto Race S.
Polar and Suunto current offerings have many shortcomings but I’m hoping their next releases will be much closer to Garmin. As for the features: why no other brand have led light?
Both Polar and Suunto will tell you straight up they can’t compete with Garmin on features. They aren’t going to try, and are very clear about that. They don’t have anywhere near the resources that Garmin has (and in most ways, have further reduced those resources in the last few years through layoffs).
Instead, they’re attempting to compete on either price/value, or differences in implementation of those features.
To be clear, I won’t be upgrading or paying for gc+. It isn’t clear to me: will any watch data uploaded with gc+ be displayed/analyzed with gc+ no better or worse than before?
Unfortunately, Garmin does what many platforms do: new features/analysis options are declared “premium” and they want money for them.
The comparision between Strava and Garmin is absolutely incorrect.
I use Strava since 2014 and I’ve never had a subscription. I’ve never paid a cent and I can use it. For me is enough only the top10 segment ranking and I dont need the stupid training advices.
On the Garmin side, I’ve paid thousand of euros for different watches, activity trackers and bike computers in the last decade. The products are calculated with enough profit.
I like the Garmin ecosystem.
But if I use Garmin express and Garmin Connect, they are full with bugs and they were never intern 100% compatible with each other.
My Edge 540 is a step back to my Edge 530 etc.
Why should I pay extra and for what.? To extra sponsor that developer?
I’m not sure what comparison you’re talking about.
But either way, just as with Strava, you don’t need to pay to use the base functionality (but do need to pay for route planning, various ranking features, Strava Live Segments, etc…). For many people, those features are very core to Strava. In Garmin, you don’t need to pay for anything, except the newly outlined features. I can’t imagine there’s anyone that would say those new features are either required, or even core to being important.
Garmin is arguing that they believe the extra features require extra employees to deliver, and thus, require extra funding. Now, I’m definitely not saying I agree with that, just noting what they’re saying.
If you don’t think the Garmin devices are worth the money (due to whatever reason), then honestly, i’d stop buying them. I guess I just don’t understand the mentality of saying “I’ve bought them for a decade, but keep hating them”. There’s plenty of other options out there.
I pay for Strava because I find it useful enough that I want it to continue, and the extra features are worth it for me. I want Garmin Connect to continue as well, and in the past the way I paid for that was by buying Garmin devices. I see little reason to pay for Connect+, since what they’re offering during the trial isn’t very compelling, although I do check in several times a day to see what stupid thing the AI says.
But what other device options out there for, say, cross country skiing power? Watches with full topographic maps with place/trail/street names, POI’s and onboard navigation? Devices that support ANT+ (which won’t matter going forward, but I still have lots of ANT+ sensors)? Personally I’ll continue to buy and use Garmin devices, but Connect+ not so much unless they either drastically lower the price or offer something more compelling and useful. (Or they remember that way back in the day, shortly before Motionbased was acquired by Garmin, Motionbased started a subscription tier which I payed for. They were acquired by Garmin shortly after, and nothing came of that. So in a sense, I’ve already paid for Connect+.)
Why as my Garmin forerunner 245 download to my Garmin connect?
Huh?
I’ve been an early technology adopter all of my longish life.
And a rabid Garmin user (bolstered by a partner company discount, which has greatly reduced recently, which along with price creeps and some new product missteps, is causing my fandom to wane a bit) of far too many devices, since the Forerunner 301.
Two technologies that are huge dead-ends and non-starters for me, in all aspects of technology:
AI features and subscription fees for added services.
I am not using nor wanting AI in any aspect of my life. The negatives of AI far outweigh the gains.
Execution is across the board terrible, and not value-added, and chalk full of errors.
I am sure there are fringe use cases where it seems like there is some value, at the expense of essentially stolen data, IP, and humans uncredited work.
Subscription fees for software added to hardware that I’ve already purchased, is a money-grab at best, and a threat to disable functionality after purchase, at worst.
I will continue to avoid devices and services that pile on these two undesirable things.
I am not a Luddite or curmudgeon.
These are both new ‘features’ where the juice is not worth the squeeze.
And, imo, we should all continue to verbally and with our wallets, voice opposition to these trends.
To add insult to injury – Garmin deleted my 20 year Garmin Connect account (which I use daily, across dozens of products) today.
I can only assume it’s some error generated by their botching of Connect+.
On the phone for 15 minutes so far, waiting to talk to customer service…
Between the $1000+ cost of a new Fenix and the Garmin + subscription plans, I’m done with Garmin. I switched to a polar M3 and while it is a different experience, I’m quite pleased with my switch and I don’t plan to return to Garmin.
@Kevin – Yes Golden Cheetah is a great option, however. in order to get data to golden cheetah, you would have to use strava as they paid the Garmin API fee (and Mark does not have that money, although i’m sure we could do a funding round to pay for it – if i’m not mistaken it started at 5000USD and have no idea what it is at now). downloading a fit-file for each training session is not a viable solution. I use it myself especially for erg-mode indoor training where i do my own intervals, but datacollection from a watch or bikecompter relies entirely on the “grace” of the manufacturer and their willingness to allow data being accessed ny others. Imagine if Garmin out that in a premium subscription plan?
There’s no longer a Garmin API fee (and hasn’t been for many years).
Any entity, as long as they have a publically posted privacy agreement on a website, can request the Garmin Connect API (for pushing data from Garmin, to a 3rd party site). It’s free.
Thanks Ray – i did not know that. That is actually rather interesting that they did that.