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24 Comments

1. Larry Tomie

   November 10, 2024 at 8:12 am #1

   I find it interesting how Zwift and earlier Rouvy has acknowledged that “outdoor” cycling is a good thing and that their products can help you to enjoy or enhance your outdoor riding experience. Previously (to me anyway) it seemed the indoor cycling apps wanted nothing to do with the outdoor experience.

   I guess they realize it’s better to expand their audience in any way.

   Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 10, 2024 at 9:29 am #2

     Yeah, I think to a degree they all always said outdoors played a part in it, but I agree they seem to be embracing aspects of that better than in the past.

     Reply
2. Ed Felkerino

   November 10, 2024 at 9:26 am #3

   The $399 deal on Amazon Prime Days for the Epix Gen 2 was for the white titanium sapphire model with dual band GPS, not the standard. There seems to be a lot of these, as I’m seeing a number of authorized sellers offering them for under $500. Interesting, I see one seller already discounting the Fenix E at $689.

   Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 10, 2024 at 9:29 am #4

     Interestingly, the records I had showed it was black titanium/sapphire. Didn’t see they also offered white.

     Reply
   • Anon

     November 12, 2024 at 2:07 am #5

     I, too remember this as being the white titanium version.
     The Wayback machine: link to web.archive.org
     Also matches this – the picture is of the white model, the link is to the same white titanium model, (currently at 450).
     At the time, I tried for the black titanium model, and it was not on sale at the time – nor is it now.

     It was the Apple Watch Ultra that was the black titanium model.

     Since I missed out on it, I’m kind of bummed that it’s now an extra $50 higher, and that none of the other models appear to be on sale again. :(

     Reply
   • Anon

     November 12, 2024 at 1:15 pm #6

     Ugh, and now it’s at 500 today. I’m unclear why they can’t just leave the price alone for a bit.

     Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 12, 2024 at 1:36 pm #7

     Nice, internet archive for the win!

     As for Amazon doing Amazon changing the price…I suspect that’s what keeps getting you back to Amazon’s page to buy some kitchen spatula you didn’t think you needed till Amazon suggested it.

     Reply
   • Anon

     November 12, 2024 at 3:25 pm #8

     Sure, I recognize that it’s a bit of a ploy to upsell, but it seem counter to the whole “be stably priced so sellers don’t have to deal with credits and returns” that you mention at the top.
     I guess maybe I can’t tell the difference between the seller deal and the Amazon deal, but it seems like thrash either way.

     Reply
3. LoneLeaf

   November 10, 2024 at 10:18 am #9

   Mallorca…, Mallorca…, where have I heard that place name recently?… 🤔 😉

   Interesting news about TPC. Looking at the ungodly amount of stuff in that auction my initial thought is no wonder they went out of biz. And the level of “investment” debt (~$80M!) for a “used bike reseller” is bonkers.

   I’m not thrilled about TPC returning. Read many insider and customer comments that their “professional vetting” of bikes was a joke/sham. And some people made a lot of money gobbling up used bikes to flip to TPC at absurd prices, and then TPC jacked them up even more. It’s difficult to say the average bike user really benefitted. And the statement in the article that their new attempt at a dealer trade-in program “provides value to dealer” suggests dealers will be paid more, which means more markup for end buyer.

   I don’t see how wholesale commercialization of the used bike market into corporate hands is a good thing for the average cyclist. I think anyone shopping for a used bike in local markets knows firsthand the effect it had. But it will be interesting to see how v2 unfolds.

   Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 10, 2024 at 2:39 pm #10

     Having been to their facility a few times, they definitely had a lot of stuff. But essentially you have to divide that into two buckets:

     A) Typical bike shop repair bench stuff
     B) Stuff they were trying to sell to consumers (e.g. parts/etc…)

     For the bike shop repair bits, that was all pretty much normal stuff to be expected for having dozens of high end bike mechanics on staff servicing boatloads of high-end bikes (since, most of these were high-end bikes). So that’s not really what got them in trouble.

     The warehouse space was massive, obviously, and certainly, that contributed a lot. Looking at similar space costs in the area, for 265,000sq ft, we’re talking the $3M/year range. Which is nuts.

     “Read many insider and customer comments that their “professional vetting” of bikes was a joke/sham”

     Not sure about that, but certainly not what I saw when I visited there. In fact, their processes were far beyond what you’d see at most bike shops. Obviously, you’re going to see exceptions at either end of the bike shop spectrum, but on the whole, I’d say the servicing level of TPC was beyond that of your average LBS.

     Again though, the ‘problem’ was the prices they were willing to buy bikes at wasn’t going to make money once they accounted for how much money they put into bikes. That’s the piece most people didn’t really understand. TPC didn’t just wash the bike, add some lube, and call it done. They almost always swapped out well-used parts/etc… to increase the resale value. That costed real money, as they were almost always brand-new parts. And then ultimately, the cost the final consumer bought for it, just didn’t leave a ton of margin.

     There’s still absolutely a huge market for this. After all, TPC was a tiny drop in the bucket for used bike sales in the US. At roughly 1,000/bikes in inventory at any point in time, we’re only talking taking 20/bikes per US state. That’s nothing. A few bike shops in a random town are going to have 2-4 bikes each on-hand that might be lightly used.

     Of course, as always, whenever you add VC or private equity, things often go wrong…and ultimately, that’s what happened here s well. Remember, TPC was around for like 20 years.

     Reply
   • LoneLeaf

     November 11, 2024 at 10:50 am #11

     >>”“Read many insider and customer comments that their “professional vetting” of bikes was a joke/sham””

     >”Not sure about that, but certainly not what I saw when I visited there. In fact, their processes were far beyond what you’d see at most bike shops. Obviously, you’re going to see exceptions at either end of the bike shop spectrum, but on the whole, I’d say the servicing level of TPC was beyond that of your average LBS.”

     I’m just going by some of the many threads I read after the closure news broke, particularly on reddit (sent you a link to one back then). Obviously take with a grain of salt but there certainly seems to be enough there from insiders and especially customers that all was not well, moreso in recent years.

     >”Of course, as always, whenever you add VC or private equity, things often go wrong…and ultimately, that’s what happened here s well.”

     ^^^ This. Surfaces in those threads a lot.

     Don’t get me wrong, I was really excited when I first discovered TPC (thru your coverage actually) and I checked their listings regularly. One of the biggest appeals was the claimed verification of carbon frames, which is always a big hesitation with used bikes (and let’s be honest they leveraged that as part of their value pitch). I communicated directly with them about their inspection methods, the equipment they used, their damage detection rates, etc. and was considering sending my frame there because proper NDT inspection services are really hard to find. (Theirs wasn’t terrifically sophisticated, but certainly better than tapping a coin. And when they were closing I considered offering to buy their NDT equipment…, it sold in the auction.)

     But for purchasing a bike, the value just wasn’t there, and no surprise with buying up used bikes at insanely inflated prices and then marking them up even more. Up until the closure “sale” hit I was still seeing prices above original sale prices.

     A service needs to offer real value for bike buyers first and foremost, and not just value to investors. (And that value can’t just be “we offer bikes you can’t find locally… because we bought those up at inflated prices”.) They would need to up their inspection game, address the surprising complaints (at least from the most recent years), and the price distortion. Yes that means no longer throwing thousands at your 10-yr old tradein you found in your uncle’s garage, sorry everyone lol. But that also translates into more appropriate market pricing that reflects the actual value they add to the bike for the buyer.

     I do want to see something like this succeed, provided it *increases* options in the used market, not reduces them in favour of commercial profit.

     I suspect they have quite of bit of reputational / confidence repair to do now as well. Will be interesting to see if they keep the name.

     Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 12, 2024 at 1:38 pm #12

     Yeah, it’s always hard to tell with the internet, but I’d say that short of pile-on type scenarios, I heard virtually no negative feedback on TPC. Actually, literally none came into my inbox that I can remember.

     As for the naming, I agree, but for different reasons. I don’t think TPC as a name helped at all. The change from “The Pros Closet” to TPC I think is actually a part of the failure. So much so that I always kept a graphic I made myself that had both “TPC” and “The Pros Closet” stacked atop each other.

     Nobody except industry bike geeks knows what the heck TPC is. It’s just three random letters. The Pros Closet at least brought in some intrigue, enough for people to click on. And the name of the game in marketing is getting people to click. If people see TPC and can’t possibly see how a TLA is going to have reputable bike stuff, then they won’t click.

     Reply
   • LoneLeaf

     November 12, 2024 at 2:19 pm #13

     Oh wow I didn’t even realize they were using “TPC” as the name! I always called it “The Pros’ Closet” but TPC for short.

     Reply
4. Rob

   November 10, 2024 at 5:41 pm #14

   Please do a better power meter stats page as that linked page is terrible. A graph that seems to compare different years but also swaps and compare women’s for one year and men the other.
   Then a pointless pie chart (all pie charts are terrible. This is more terrible).
   And.. no, I just don’t trust it having looked at it

   Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 11, 2024 at 5:57 am #15

     Unfortunately as noted, they don’t list the exact numbers as was usually the case in past years (allowing me more flexibility/analysis potential).

     I had assumed that they were comparing Nice 2023 to Kona 2024, but, if not, yeah, that would explain the wild swings.

     Reply
5. Cal

   November 11, 2024 at 3:45 am #16

   For a first time smart trainer purchaser, would you recommend the JB Victory over the Kickr Core with Zwift Play bundle?

   Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 11, 2024 at 5:23 am #17

     Generally speaking, yes. About the only exception being:

     A) You plan to purchase the Wahoo KICKR CLIMB (only compatible with CORE)
     B) You didn’t pre-order and need the trainer immediately (since JetBlack Victory timeline for newly placed orders is like late December I think now).

     Reply
6. Jonathan Rial

   November 11, 2024 at 5:08 pm #18

   Hey Ray,
   Not sure if you have seen that Zwift are offering 10% off the ride, kickr core and the bundle with code CYCLINGZ10 for their 10 year anniversary. This is available in the UK, US and EU.

   Reply
7. Anon

   November 12, 2024 at 3:51 am #19

   At what point do we expect the majority of Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals to stop rolling in? I’d love to make a decision earlier, but would also hate to have to deal with the changes if I should have waited a few more days.

   Reply
   • MartinM

     November 12, 2024 at 6:58 am #20

     I would guess sometime around Black Friday or Cyber Monday, and even then some of the deals might continue past that date. The small premium you pay now in the event that a price drops below a current sale price is basically an insurance fee, as some items may run out of sale inventory if the deal is good. If you are buying something reliable that you need, it’s going to last long enough that an extra $20 or $50 shouldn’t hold up your decision too much.

     Reply
   • Anon

     November 12, 2024 at 12:41 pm #21

     I’m specifically referring to Ray’s comment:

     > In general, for most companies, if they announce sales now, won’t introduce lower prices on Black Friday for those same exact models/products, as it annoys the @#$@# out of retailers, who have to deal with price credits or returns.

     It sounds like the “saving an extra 20-50” is the least likely of the things to change.

     Thus why I’m asking if there’s a time range for those early deal announcements. Or if companies (like Garmin) might announce deals for some items now, and then add in other products only on Black Friday.

     Reply
   • Ray Maker

     November 12, 2024 at 1:40 pm #22

     Garmin tends to go-live usually around this week each year, typically later in the week, but we’ll see.

     Generally speaking Garmin announces all their deals as-is at this time, for the holiday season. Any subsequent deals for Black Friday specifically, are either retailer driven (if in Europe), or non-MAP deals if in the US (e.g. older products Garmin has taken off of restricted MAP pricing, and then companies can go wild). Uncle Amazon’s Epix deals fall into that category.

     I don’t have an exact list of which products are on MAP (and Garmin certainly wouldn’t say it), but generally speaking it’s anything other than current gen. I believe Fenix/Epix Pro are still MAP though.

     Reply
   • Anon

     November 12, 2024 at 3:31 pm #23

     Great, thanks! That makes a lot of sense, and was seeing pricing for the Epix/Fenix 7 Pro as pretty stable vs the previous models.

     Also, feel free to the duplicate message below (about the $500 price for the Epix) that got double-sent.

     Reply
8. Anonymouse

   November 12, 2024 at 1:14 pm #24

   Ugh, and now it’s at 500 today. I’m unclear why they can’t just leave the price alone for a bit.

   Reply