There’s always one acquisition each year that comes out of left field, and this year’s award is online training log platform TrainingPeaks announcing the acquisition of IndieVelo, which is an indoor cycling app akin to Zwift or Rouvy. Indievelo is a bit over a year old now, and has slowly grown from being a technology demonstrator app (focused on race integrity) to a very legit online cycling platform used by thousands of people each day. Indievelo also has had two tiers, free and paid – with the free tier offering essentially all the same functionality.
What’s been most impressive about IndieVelo is the rapid pace of development, with each Monday morning bringing a new version of the app and a slate of features. Just look at this list of each week’s additions (no, for real, go look at it). And the kicker? The development of the entire app has been just a single person: George Gilbert.
Just 9 days ago, IndieVelo noted in an e-mail that they had signed up their 40,000th person. Of course, that doesn’t mean there are 40,000 active users on the platform, but simply 40,000 accounts. Still, that’s impressive. First, though, let’s quickly recap what IndieVelo is.
A Tiny Bit of History:
Dr. George Gilbert originally started out owning much of Zwift’s anti-cheating programs (ZADA), focused on big data, primarily on the pro side (and also has been on the board at British Cycling, has a PhD in Astrophysics from Cambridge, among others). In any case, virtually all of the high-profile reports that you’d have read about bans in Zwift, and how they caught each person, were written by George. Of course, ultimately, Zwift generally only puts resources into hanging cheaters out to dry if money is on the line (pros).
But George felt indoor training platforms could do better if they leveraged technology more in-game for everyone. Things like built-in dual recording verification, and various other algorithm concepts (such as looking at power accuracy variance between trainer models and units in big data ways). All of which resulted in IndieVelo. The rough idea was that companies would license IndieVelo technologies in various topic areas (sorta like FirstBeat, before Garmin bought them). The problem of course, was that there just aren’t that many indoor trainer apps as potential customers.
Nonetheless, George kept expanding IndieVelo into the sorta-Zwift clone that it is today. In some cases, things are eerily identical between the two (such as some menu styling). In other places, they’re vastly different. Still, I asked Zwift’s leaders about this specifically (this past spring/summer), and they said they saw George as a great technology partner, rather than a competitor.
Of course, that always struck me as odd, because at the end of the day, IndieVelo was factually taking away customers from Zwift – whether or not each side wanted to admit it. Of course, maybe Zwift knew that as a single-person entity, IndieVelo could only scale so much.
In any case, as for IndieVelo, it’s got most of the non-social features you’d see on Zwift. Things like structured workouts, support for every trainer out there, and support for a gazillion sensor types. Just two weeks ago he included in the release notes:
– Added support for SmO2 Saturation sensors.
– Added support for SmO2 Concentration sensors.
– Added support for Core Temperature sensors.
– Added support for Skin Temperature sensors.
– Added support for Heat Stress Index sensors.
This is of course in addition to all the other normal cycling sensors supported already (power/speed/cadence/trainers/HR/etc…). The platform also does neat stuff like show you both your power meter and trainer power numbers concurrently, so you can see how they might differ.
It’s got a number of routes you can take, though nowhere near as many worlds/locations/routes as Zwift. In fact, it’s really only got one world. But hey, Zwift only had one world for years as well.
Again, the key thing that IndieVelo hung their hat on was their performance verification aspects technically, to aim to have the best racing experience from a validation standpoint – ensuring that efforts to cheat were heavily minimized. Even if that cheating was accidental/unrealized (such as crappy trainers or uncalibrated power meters). After all, the majority of people that are seen as ‘cheaters’ flying by on Zwift, are likely just unknowing individuals with old and stinky inaccurate trainers.
Ok, with that quick overview done, let’s get into the details.
TrainingPeaks Acquisition:
TrainingPeaks has announced, effective immediately, that IndieVelo is now part of TrainingPeaks. George has become a full-time employee of TrainingPeaks as part of this, and no longer has any ties to Zwift/ZADA.
IndieVelo is rebranded (today) as TrainingPeaks Virtual, and the game update that’s going out today will reflect the new branding, which looks like the above screenshot.
From a game standpoint, today, very little changes, except that as of today you can tie your TrainingPeaks & IndieVelo accounts together as one cohesive thing, or, just login with an existing TrainingPeaks account. You’ve been able to link TrainingPeaks and IndieVelo for a while now (both for pushing completed workouts to TP, but also having planned workouts push to IndieVelow), that remains the same. But behind the scenes the two accounts are now officially tied together, versus just a generic API call.
For the duration of the northern hemisphere winter, IndieVelo will remain free to all users, just as it is today. And, it’ll continue getting updates too as usual. However, sometime after March 2025, IndieVelo will only be available on the TrainingPeaks Premium Tier ($19.99/month or $124.99/year). That tier also has a 30-day trial as well. Of course, a heck of a lot of athletes simply get TrainingPeaks as part of plans their coach has subscribed to.
The company says that the “through March 2025″ date isn’t super firm, but it’ll at least be that long (meaning, it could be April 2025 or July 2025 too), but the target is at least through then before the freebie ends. Let’s circle back to this free thing in a second.
IndieVelo Founders Club members will receive 1 year of TrainingPeaks Premium subscription. As a reminder, that’s worth $125, and includes IndieVelo and of course the full TrainingPeaks Premium Subscription. Heck, that’s cheaper than the Founders Club membership was (which was $130 and didn’t include TrainingPeaks).
Going forward, George will start to gain additional developers/development resources to expand the TrainingPeaks Virtual game/platform. Of course, they also see other short-term updates coming quickly as well, such as automatically keeping your FTP/power zones/heart rate zones/weight, etc…all in sync between TrainingPeaks (web) and the Virtual game.
Lastly, I asked how this might impact the relationship TrainingPeaks has with other (every other) online training platform today. They said all existing partnerships remain and that “we very much and firmly believe in an open ecosystem”, going on to talk about how TrainingPeaks as a platform loses value the moment TrainingPeaks starts to limit who can upload to/from the platform.
Said differently, as appealing as IndieVelo and indoor cycling is as a revenue source/drive, ultimately, the underlying cash cow of TrainingPeaks’ training log platform is the near universal compatibility with every device/app/platform out there. Just like Strava, if you start to limit that, you limit your potential customers, and they’ll simply go somewhere else.
Let’s Talk About Free:
In general, I think this acquisition is a good thing as it’ll increase competition by providing funding to a platform that needs it to grow. The simple reality is that having a single person developing an online training platform with tens of thousands of users simply isn’t viable or scalable in the long term. How on earth George has managed to pull this off for this long is mind-boggling. But practically speaking, it wouldn’t last forever. It never does.
Of course, there will unquestionably be a portion of the population that’s upset that come next spring, IndieVelo as we know it will cost money. And that’s a fair complaint. But it ignores the reality that every single “free” indoor cycling platform to date has failed. Because ultimately, free doesn’t pay the bills.
In fact, many of the people that are now doing free racing and such on IndieVelo came from RGT en masse, when it shut down (including its widely used free tier). And before RGT? They were on VirtuGo or CVRcade (before it got really weird). And before that? Probably using one of the free-but-now-dead platforms of 8+ years ago.
Ultimately, there are only three ways to have a free commercial anything in the world:
– Method 1: Your costs are covered by serving you ads or selling your data (e.g., FaceBook, YouTube, etc…). – Method 2: Your costs are covered by a billionaire with too much free time (e.g., some pro cycling teams) – Method 3: Your costs are covered by a government or corporation underwritten for various ulterior reasons (e.g., MyWhoosh, a number of pro cycling teams, etc..)
And unfortunately, for the first ad-served model, it just doesn’t work for indoor training apps. Companies (including Zwift) have tried it, but unsurprisingly people simply don’t pay much attention to ads in-game during a hard interval. And likewise, there isn’t a lot of demand/money in selling your trainer workout data.
Now, do I think TrainingPeaks could find some middle-ground and offer a TrainingPeaks Virtual-only tier for $10 and rake in the extra money? Yeah, probably. Will they? Who knows…but I’d bet probably not.
That said, one thing to keep in mind is that while there is a chunk of people that are losing free access to IndieVelo, there’s a *FAR LARGER* chunk of people that is gaining access to IndieVelo for free: All existing TrainingPeaks Premium members. George has always been clear, that IndieVelo is free “while in beta”, but wouldn’t necessarily remain that way long term. Because after all, free without strings is never viable long term.
Going Forward:
So, the biggest question then is how this will impact other platforms like Zwift, Rouvy, TrainerRoad, and more. Or even Xert, for that matter. Well, let’s start off with the easy one, Xert. I don’t think it’ll actually impact them at all. After all, people using Xert as a training log are likely doing so because they didn’t like TrainingPeaks to begin with. And with the just-announced Xert-Zwift integration last week, things only get better there for them.
Next, another easy one – TrainerRoad. Again, I don’t think this immediately impacts them in any meaningful way. If people are using TrainerRoad, then they’re likely using the automated/AI plans/etc within TrainerRoad. That’s kinda the point of TrainerRoad these days. And TrainingPeaks doesn’t have anything that dynamic today. Could TrainingPeaks create that? Certainly. Will they? Seems unlikely. As good as TrainingPeaks is as a training log platform, it’s never really excelled at cutting-edge technology. It’s often seen as a cargo ship (and a really slow-moving one at that), rather than a swanky new cruise ship with a race car track and Cirque du Soleil on it. Plus, TrainingPeaks risks upsetting their big revenue source (coaches), if they push AI stuff too much.
So that leaves Zwift and like platforms (Rouvy, BKool, etc…). Yes, this actually has the potential to impact them. But only if that potential is leveraged. Right now, IndieVelo has mostly been a niche platform not well-known in the mainstream cycling realm. It’s going to take an actual effort from TrainingPeaks to firstly make it aware to their existing customers and coaches. And even more, TrainingPeaks needs to give a reason for people to start leveraging it.
I could see many super-interesting potential scenarios here though. For example, TrainingPeaks already allows coaches to display notes inside indoor workouts to automatically appear on the screen of an IndieVelo (err..TrainingPeaks Virtual) workout. But they could go further and do things like short voice notes. Many coaches now (especially younger ones), prefer recording a simple voice message that explains why/what/etc of a given workout section. That would also increase the connection between the coach and the athlete, rather than generic text. Point is, there’s tons of potential here.
My wife is a great example of this. Currently, her coach uses TrainingPeaks, and then she executes those workouts on Zwift. For most of her structured workouts, she’s listening to a podcast or reading a book. She doesn’t tend to focus on Zwift as a social world for these workouts. Thus, she’s the perfect customer/scenario where if TrainingPeaks + IndieVelo can deliver a superior structured training experience, she doesn’t really care which platform she logs into.
Thus, back to the iffy cruise/cargo ship analogy, TrainingPeaks will need to spend real marketing dollars and time/effort to raise the profile of TrainingPeaks Virtual both within the existing customer base, but also the general cycling customer base. Sure, it could likely survive merely as a structured training platform, but I think it’s got serious potential to expand itself as a key racing and social cycling platform – but as always, only if there are lots of people on it. In other words, TrainingPeaks needs to shift a bit from a slow and steady cargo ship approach, to a more exciting cruise ship approach, and let George and his team do what they do best: Add a bunch of new stuff constantly to stay on the cutting edge. If they hamper that, it won’t work.
But, I’m looking forward to seeing what comes down this pipeline.
With that – thanks for reading!
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Damn, back to the drawing board for another decent free virtual cycling app. I’ve been on IV for the whole journey and have regularly conversed with George regarding bugs and improvements. Like you I am surprised he managed to do what he did every week and I hope for him it has been a decent pay day. Any subscription is too much for me as i’m not a very regular user and money is tight. What a shame, but i have to accept what’s happened of course!
Two other very good aspects of indieVelo could have been mentioned in the article:
1) indieVelo has very good virtual shifting that can be used by all smart trainers
2) There is a pretty nice wind and draft simulation in indieVelo that can be seen on screen and felt while riding
As far as free apps are concerned you might want to look at biketerra. Could become interesting in the future, virtual rinding in a browser. If the development pace keeps constant it could become a nice free alternative. Have a look at the changelog: link to biketerra.com
I am similar to your wife—I subscribe to a coach-developed plan in TP and send the plan’s workouts to Zwift.
I suppose in this case, I also don’t really care where the workout is performed, other than the occasional zone 2 ride where I have to pound out 90 minutes at a specific HR/power setting. In that case, the social side of Zwift is a touch more appealing.
Hmm, I do hope they keep a mid-priced tier for Indievelo/Trainingpeaks Virtual.
I use TrainerRoad for workouts, and Indievelo for a race once or twice a week.
I’d accept some kind of subscription, but I can’t justify an additional $20pm for that.
Same here. Intended to sign up to the founders club this winter, despite not using it that much, having enjoyed IV for a while and wanting to support George. The latter has gone away obviously, but would still consider a cheaper yearly sub for it as I like the platform and routes. TP Premium would be too much for me though, but extremely chuffed for George with this turn of events.
I’d seen the $19.99/month figure for TP Premium, which was a huge uplift vs Founders Club, but somehow missed the $124.99/year …. d’oh. Definitely in the ballpark then.
Not sure what i’d use from TP, to be honest, that i’m not getting elsewhere but worth a look too.
Sadly this news I was expecting for a while. It was always the case George spent the time and effort to sell it off. I only used it as it was free and I get bored of others whether free or not, so no big deal to me I have to say !
Training Peaks should develop a new feature for people like your wife and myself. It could be included in the TP Premium account and look something like TraineRoad. It could execute the structured w/o’s from your TrainingPeaks account on screen. For many of us that is all we really need.
Where’s the value prop in that – in addition to the platforms, if all you really want to do is load a workout and pedal looking at a data screen and literally nothing more, you can just use your garmin and ANT+ control.
That seems like a waste of programming resources to address what is a fundamentally solved problem.
Serious bummer.. would have been nice to have a real zwift alternative for a reasonable monthly fee, guess you had to pay into the founders club to work through the growing pains of the platform and for 13/month that was hard to swallow…. I hated not knowing if I was riding with all bots and the rider and bike/rider movement kind weirded me out – mechanical.
Impressive nonetheless to get to where it went, but for 20/year not worth leaving zwift as much as I hate the way they operate..
I think this is a very interesting move for TP. I tried IV and liked it, ultimately stuck with Zwift mostly because my PC died and Apple TV was a more simple replacement option.
I agree with your point, if TP can stay out of the way, let IV continue to develop, they could start to bring some people back that have left over the years. I think the idea of swapping a $20 Zwift subscription for a $20 TP subscription makes sense for a lot of people.
Always wonder what percentage of Zwift users does that, or custom workouts in general, because they haven’t done anything to improve the overall workout experience in at least 5 years. But we’re clearly not the target audience for the product. Otherwise they might have just bought and integrated TR at some point.
It’s going to be interesting to see if IV is gaining more users through TP premium subscribers, even though they already could have used the platform for free right now, or lose more customers who want a free app to MyWoosh.
Wow, was not expecting this! Currently I use Training Peaks with TrainerDay because I don’t need the social world and TrainerDay is $4/month.
But if this works well, I’ll just save the $4/month.
My worry is that TP mobile apps are terrible and have only improved once in 3 years (adding the analytics/stack-up screen). And the website is mediocre. I don’t trust them to do a good development job with innovation.
I moved across to IndieVelo when Zwift decided they needed a massive price increase. I’ve been happily paying the Founders Club subscription each month but have zero interest in Training Peaks so would see no benefit in taking out a premium subscription to TP just to get access to IV, chances are I’ll go back to Zwift.
But Premium TP is only $125 per year, so $10 a month, this is less than zwift and also less than founders club $13 (that I pay for) it’s not a bad deal at all
Except it is actually a big middle finger to the founders club subscribers. I’m pretty sure on their website they stated that when a subscription model ever comes to IV then they would benefit from a reduced price. Now he has sold out to trainingpeaks, I can’t see them holding that bargain. Even the indievelo has completely removed the founders club page from their website.
If you buy the annual subscription, that price is less than the annual Founder’s Club price. It would be nice if Founder’s Club members get Training Peaks Premium until the end of our current Founder’s Club subscriptions, but I don’t see how this is a slap in the face.
The original wording as I remember it was that, when subscription rates came to iV, Founder’s Club members would initially not pay more than the Founder’s club rate. Since the TP annual rate is less than the Founder’s Club annual rate, I don’t see how this changes anything. Sure, Founder’s Club members don’t appear to be getting anything cheaper than anyone else (still haven’t gotten the email that was promised that’s supposed to tell us how things are going to swap over), but I don’t see how I’m losing anything by this.
If I try Training Peaks and decide that using it means that I can do without intervals or one of the other subscriptions I currently pay for, that would mean I end up saving some money by this merger, which would be nice.
Here’s a copy of what the Founders Club said pre-acquisition. While it does mention a move to commercial and potential discount, I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that carries through to an acquisition.
Plus, as noted, it’s literally cheaper now for TP than Founder Club.
Well, except as I founder I have been given a full year of Training Peaks Premium for free. So not the worst deal and TBH I was paying George as I appreciated what he was trying to build and I stopped giving Zwift £17.99.
I got 5 features I suggested added to the platform and got to wear my club kit all the time. I think it was a fair deal.
Like many others, we praised IV for the progress and speed with which they’ve been developing the platform, especially compared to competitors like Zwift—and, let’s be honest, because it’s free.
However, with the new €20 per month subscription model, people will likely start evaluating it differently. For example, graphics that seem impressive for a free game might be considered inadequate for a €125 per year product.
If IV is offering a €125 annual plan, it would make sense to clearly show what subscribers can expect over the year. A roadmap, new worlds, improved graphics, UI enhancements, or other in-game upgrades would be helpful. Because, realistically, if the price is comparable to competitors like Zwift and Rouvy, users will compare it to those platforms.
I believe IV has the potential to become as successful as Zwift, but starting with a lower price point might be a smarter approach.
With the better racing dynamics and anti-cheating technology TP/Indivelo need to persuade a racing league like WRTL to jump ship from Zwift. Suspect very large proportion of racers are using TP to log activities and training. So getting an established racing league to move would be a logical move and probably attract a lot of zwift users to make the switch as there’s lots of frustration with the slow pace of changes in zwift and concentration as a game rather than training and racing tool
This to me has always been the selling point of iV. It’s not just the anti-cheating aspects that this article outlines; it’s the diversity of racing on the platform. Points races, Keirins, elimination, etc.–it’s not just a bunch of scratch races that always end in a bunch sprint. Racing on Zwift is so homogenous (the newly introduced scoring system has not changed this at all) in the way they play out that once I started participating on indie there was no going back to the big orange Z. I’m sure you’ve also seen all the series that have started popping up. (Being able to run your own series is also another massive thing.). I’d love to see some of the bigger series consider this platform as the proper place to run a race.
I for one am quite excited by this, as someone who has on-again/off-again paid for Training Peaks (currently “off again”, and same for Zwift over the years, this, combined with the Polar integration announcement for Q1 or whenever coming up…. this gives me a reason to “on-again”… I’ve used TP as a repository for years, as I’ve played with various watch brands (Coros, Garmin, Polar) as well as Zwift data (Yeah, it’s a mess in my TP, LOL, have to delete lots of dupe stuff every now and then)…
These changes potentially make for solid reasons to absolutely subscribe and centralize on TP that didn’t exist before (assuming the riding experience is enjoyable, I’ve not tried it but from the screenshots and DCR description, sounds likely it’s perfectly good).
Bottom line, some people may be like me, they really like TP for both planning and analysis (it’s like a more nerdy/less pretty version of Polar Flow in my book, and way more cohesive than Connect), but it’s not QUITE valuable enough to keep all the time… but with the extra value-adds coming in for the premium tier, if they keep pricing the same (sounds like the initial plan)… now the value is much higher for those who might use those extra things.
It’s exciting and nervy at the same time. The good thing is, George tends to make excellent decisions so I trust this one is going to pay of for iV (TPV) users long-term.
Two words: Zwift cog
(I was planning to buy a Zwift cog trainer, but now I am thinking again, specially because I already pay for Training Peaks Premium, but, the Zwift Cog trainers are much cheaper than the non Zwift cog equipped)
Two other very good aspects of indieVelo could have been mentioned in the article:
1) indieVelo has very good virtual shifting that can be used by all smart trainers
2) There is a pretty nice wind and draft simulation in indieVelo that can be seen on screen and felt while riding
As far as free apps are concerned you might want to look at biketerra. Could become interesting in the future, virtual rinding in a browser. If the development pace keeps constant it could become a nice free alternative. Have a look at the changelog:
I love IndieVelo, and all the work done. But, let’s be honest, I can’t really call Virtual Shifting all that great. And that’s no fault of George’s, that’s the trainer companies being stuck on Zwift.
Having to use a keyboard isn’t really awesome. Again, I don’t fault Geoge there, but I can’t with a straight face say that’s really a comparable feature to what Zwift has natively now.
The good thing about the keyboard, is that keyboard commands are easily mappable to other things. iV also supports game controllers. I personally use Avotro handlebar controllers to control everything on iV apart from chat.
My other issue with any virtual racing platform other than Zwift is… running.
I have no problem running outside, all the year, but here in the house there are some people who don’t like that idea very much, specially when is raining or hailing or there is wind over the 40 kilometres per hour.
Ray, those numbers aren’t massive. e.g. the 38 million workouts planned – I plan 7-9 workouts a week, but let’s say the average is 5 per week for most people. That would be 146,000 people.
If instead you assumed 2 workouts per week average (unlikely that low), that’s still only 365,000 people.
The thing is, a lot of people don’t actually plan workouts on Training Peaks. It’s just used as a data repository for a lot of athletes. I’d bet of their active/paying user base, planned workouts represent less than half of users.
And then of those users, planned workouts probably are only a certain chunk of the year. Also, 7 years ago was a time when far less devices supported TrainingPeaks workouts (e.g. no Suunto, no Polar, no Apple, and not even Wahoo had structured workouts back then). Basically, it was Garmin…or…Garmin.
Actually I think this isn’t as bad as first seems. I have always felt that Training Peaks is massively overpriced, however this now makes it a good value proposition especially on the annual plan. However that is only if TP can get decent number of users on the platform and if they provide some form of included training plans
Last time I checked indieVelo the only world was the island…and new routes entailed re-arranging the roads. To compete with Zwift, for me, they need new worlds. I get bored easily. TP means nothing to me as I do not do structured workouts so the virtual world would have to carry the load of my interest.
If I every left Zwift it would be to BigRingVr or Rouvy.
I keep meaning to check it out but that’s disappointing if it lacks content. When I started with Zwift in 2020 it was fun working through all the routes especially the super long ones and doing the first AdZ climb but despite the basic graphics and relatively basic interaction in the environment (just bikes going by with a fixed camera) their content seems to almost come to a complete halt. I know there’s meant to be a new expansion at the end of Tour of Watopia but it looks similar in scale to the grade and the one that goes along the coastline, both ok additions but very minor
That’s an interesting one as in 2020 Zwift was quite a mature product. I was on it from beta and it only had Jarvis island, 1 route 5km.
TVP (iV) is at that stage now, but has 2 islands and more routes, the game has been built much more around strong foundations and amazing physics, with wind, proper draft and you can’t ride through each other 🤣 and so many race formats, elimination, TT, points races with live scoreboards.
The racing is totally fair and tier one races use Performance verification so you can’t do microbursting or sticky watts or badly calibrated trainers etc.
It tricky to compare with Zwift as its a pretty different product and IMHO aimed a different kind of rider. If you want free and stuff to look at the MW is possibly better
After Zwift raised their prices to $20/month in May, I cancelled my account & started using myWhoosh. Despite it feeling gross because it’s owned by UAE, it was free. And since I really only use the virtual software for training & not racing, I did not care about it having a smaller user base. Before today, I had not even heard of indieVelo, but because (like most) I have a TP account through my coach, I may give it a try. Best case, I get something closer to that Zwift experience & it is still free. Worst case, I go back to myWhoosh…& it’s still free.
Weird question: I’m a bottom of the barrel D cat rider on Zwift. Is there anyone like me on Training Peaks Virtual? I really enjoy racing, but wouldn’t jump ship if my races are just me vs. one or two other people.
Hi Myles
There aren’t a huge number of riders at our bottom of the barrel level but what makes the platform absolutely great is the ability matched pen system whereby you can race against bots (or humans as it’s impossible to tell them apart) and have some great racing.
For example I run a weekly series where the winner of the level 7 race gets the same points as the winner of the level 1 race so everyone is motivated not just a select few.
The racing on TVP is way fairer than Zwift. I left Zwift after 9 years due to my dissatisfaction with fair racing. The beauty of TVP (iV) is that there are also bots of all abilities with real CP Curves and W’. If you do a matchmaking race the participants are split into pens of ability 1 min before the start. That way you race with people/bots of a similar ability and non one rips the race apart by bering in the wrong pen.
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As a coach, this is awesome news for me. Now my athletes and I will have a virtual cycling app built right in, instead of me having to explain to them that they’ll likely need an additional subscription (if they don’t want to train staring at a wall lol). Are group rides possible? Excited to try it out!
I’ve been playing with indieVelo for quite some time now. I’m also coached on TP. So, just natural that I’d try to install TP Virtual. No go. Installer got to 100% and then locked my computer (W10). Forced a reboot, saw that TP Virtual was installed (menu) and tried to run it. Lots of checking and double checking followed by…100% install and complete non-responsiveness. Maybe this is b/c I also have indieVelo installed, but someone wake me up when this issue is resolved.
I saw some notes on the IndieVelo FB forums that all sorts of people were getting hung installers today. I assume something behind the scenes minor changed that wasn’t caught till at scale (seemed vaguely like a DNS type issue). I’d probably give it another whirl today.
Some people reported that running it as Administrator (if on Windows) seemed to solve the problem. Wasn’t required for me on Mac.
Ray, have you tested the Android version? I tried it for the first time today and it is buggy. It wouldn’t even get into the session because it kept telling me it found my Tacx but it had no signal (which makes no sense). I tried unpairing, turning off/on Bluetooth, closing, opening the app but none of that worked. Then I force stopped it and cleared the cache (something I haven’t had to do in an android app in 3 years) and when I reopened it, everything I had unpaired was paired and working. Not a great experience.
I think the integration of virtual reality training with comprehensive structured training and coaching is great and the logical way forward. Seamless integration of training, whether outside or virtual, without having to think too hard about how the workout gets to your head unit (watch or tablet etc…) and without duplication (watch and tablet etc…) will be great.
The weather is so changeable these days that on occasions training outside is not really a sensible option (ironic that this virtual reality is probably hosted on some gas guzzling server somewhere!).
I am another user with no interest in the social aspects/community but just have it burbling away in the background (while watching TV on another screen!). There are some good cycling videos on Youtube too which pretty much does the same thing for me and is free.
The name suggests a cycling focus. Will other sports such as running be supported in time? It would be good to get proper support for running. Zwift does but it is half hearted and does not appear to be being actively developed.
TrainingPeaks Virtual sounds much more like a virtual place to train. I won’t bet my house, but it seams a no brainer to add running to fit with TPs core users and would be surprised if it didn’t get added.
I’ve tried indieVelo a few times and it looked pretty cool but indoors I do mostly structured workouts using ERG but their workout library is pretty weak compared to Zwift/TrainerRoad/MyWhoosh.
Also the lack of a direct Garmin integration is a minus. If they can “fix” these two points in the comming months i’ll serious consider subscribing.
“Also the lack of a direct Garmin integration is a minus. If they can “fix” these two points in the comming months i’ll serious consider subscribing.”
Sadly, Garmin says that inbound API is closed to new trainer app companies (and has been for a few years now). Once they had the Tacx app, they basically stopped new entrants. Far larger apps have gotten denied. About the only app that Garmin would approve these days is Peloton, if Peloton wanted, given the value/size of the platform.
Considering that TP already can push workouts to Garmin I though that they could also start to push activities but they probably don’t have access to that API and like you said the chances of Garmin opening that door is 0.
It can be done manually tough… But an integrated process is much more user-friendly.
Which potential integration are missing? Is it the ‘pushing’ of activities from TP into Garmin Connect? I believe it does work the other way around (ie, activities from GC can sync to TP)? And TP can push workouts (including scheduled workouts from training plans) to GC, correct?
With IV/TPV, I suppose the way to go is dual recording of workouts both in the IV/TPV app and on a Garmin device, but either delete the duplicate activity in TP or not sync those activities from GC to TP.
The integration missing is pushing completed activities into Garmin Connect, like what you get with Zwift or TrainerRoad.
The only option right now is to upload the fit file manually or dual recording like you mention. The integration avoids the hassle of having to delete the duplicates.
I guess we’ll see more consolidations in the coming years like this TP & IV merger. I wonder if, as an example, Strava is already looking around to onboard a virtual riding platform.
I don’t understand why no one has implemented a more realistic representation of structured training so far. A route with low intensity must under no circumstances lead uphill where you then mutate to a crawl etc. This then leads to the fact that the graphic representation is not taken into account anyway by the User and could then just as well be omitted.
Maybe TP is interested in improving something here in their own field!
Goodbye IndieVelo innovation. TrainingPeaks hasn’t bothered developing better graphs and analytics for decades, and it became the annoying platform trying to sell you their stuff non-stop, even to coach accounts clients. It’s workout builder is also outdated and slow. And it’s expensive. So many platforms outperform TrainingPeaks and yet, it’s the only auto-sync training platform with Zwift and so many coaching businesses and athletes continue to use it.
Did I understand your video to say that if you are a TP Premium member, you will automatically have the indievelo included?
If so, is it there now? If it is, how do I access it?
Well. the whole situation for me is pretty meta. I’m on zwift b/c I have a Sufferfest/WahooX subscription and they kneecapped their integrated virtual riding platform (RGT). I got a year of Zwift as compensation. So, that’s ending soon. I’m a coached athlete on TP, so ‘premium’ on TP. Now I have access to indieVelo…ummm…TP Virtual as an integrated virtual riding platform. I was using indieVelo off and on for some time – it’s pretty good, excellent for free and the updates/communications were 1st rate. But…but…but…Wahoo/Sufferfest/WahooX could not make RGT a profitable component of their business model. Will TP be any different with indieVelo/TPV? Time will tell and the two business cases have some differences – but some similarities. I agree with most – it’s now time for TPV to expand the environment and develop the community…
As a coach of a High School road racing team with a 15-station Kickr spin studio I LOVE this. We buy a special school team coach edition of TP that allows us to have a premium coach TP account and upgrade all our athletes to premium TP but then to really do indoor training we’ve had to have all of them buy Zwift accounts. Now, we could pivot to using TP Virtual and our students would not need to pay $199 for an annual Zwift membership.
It also sounds like this will allow us to host our own races or race series for just our team or to race against other schools, which sounds awesome!
at the end of the day u get A LOT more for a TP Premium subscription with IV than a Zwift subs. Now hopefully TP stays out the way and let the development continue at a rapid pace (perhaps provide more resources) instead of becoming a blocker.
Having been a TP member for a while, I gave this a shot yesterday. It was…fine. I’m more into structured workouts than racing, so the virtual environment isn’t a big draw for me (I’ll be keeping my Trainer Day subscription).
At the end of my structured workout, which I had designed in TP, TPV did…nothing. As far as it was concerned, I should have just kept on riding. Seems like it should at least pop up a “finish your workout” button.
Getting get data *out* was irritating. On iOS, there are the apps RunGap and HealthFit for syncing, but indieVelo has never had a connection to either, and still doesn’t. There is also no way to export a .fit file from the TPV app. Had to log into the TP website on my desktop and download the .fit file from there.
Apple’s own Health/Workouts apps connect to both RunGap and HealthFit. Ride with GPS, Komoot, Cycling Analytics, and so on. RunGap connects to 40 different services, HealthFit to 25, not including connections to the local file store and iCloud.
Technically speaking, Apple actually just connects to HealthKit, and then RunGap and HealthFit pull from it. But RunGap and HealthFit both support TrainingPeaks just fine.
Now, IndieVelo could do more to push into HealthKit (Apple Health), but I suspect that was a very low-requested item, else George probably would have added it.
Ray, the spammer “David” in post #61 might be here about your helicopter yacht 😉
First thing I noticed was how much the UI feels like a Zwift clone, especially the fonts and iconography (and on “The Hub” screens especially). At times I wasn’t sure which app was being shown in the video. I realize it’s cycling and there’s only so much variety to present the same info, but one wonders how jumpy the IP lawyers will be now after the acquisition…
Would be great to see them develop a more distinctive style and featured UI for cycling with less of the gamey Fisher-Price flavour of Zwift.
Zwift was developed with the idea that riding a trainer was boring, so we need to make it as exciting as possible, adding in surreal scenery and power-ups to keep riders engaged.
RGT was developed with the idea that Zwift lacked racing realism, and race realism included real-world courses, as well as corner braking, better pack dynamics, and manual steering to facilitate racing tactics like holding a wheel or getting a clean line to attack. But it was missing the most important factor: riders. And it failed to support community organizers, although it provided them with custom “branding” for in-game logos. But no riders, no racing. So t died.
Biketerra has taken up the custom course task, and does it much better than RGT did with real-world terrain beyond the course profile. But it’s not attempting to be a race simulator yet.
Indie Velo came along and decided to go all in on racing: focus on organizer support, superior pack dynamics, various event types. It completely neglected the “world”: riding around in the game I find to be incredibly dull, unlike in Zwift. And no real-world courses. The focus was completely on the events. And it’s gotten some traction.
It will be interesting where TP takes it: will the world be enhanced? Will they support custom courses? Will it hold onto a critical mass of racers, without the silly bots which have been for me a turn-off? I don’t know. The market simply isn’t big enough to support too many players, and MyWhoosh is making a play for the cheapskates with its oil money business model (to me MyWhoosh racing dynamics appear inferior to Zwift, but I’ve not tried it myself).
Thanks for the update. Can you do a short video about the Indievelo virtual gear settings? In particular can it be turned off? (Without a controller, I find it a bother to have to use the keyboard to shift). Many thanks!!! Best, Louie
Hi again Thought that I had replied but it appears that my last posting did not post. If this is a dupe…sorry!
Good to hear that it can be turned off. Can you tell me how to turn it off? Have looked (emarrasse to say how long!) but cannot find how to do it. (I have it set up on a Mac) Again, thanks so much!
Looking forward to trying this out. I pay for TrainingPeaks for structured workouts from a coach. Then for the winter months pay a Zwift subscription also. Nice to get rid of a subscription where possible!
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Damn, back to the drawing board for another decent free virtual cycling app. I’ve been on IV for the whole journey and have regularly conversed with George regarding bugs and improvements. Like you I am surprised he managed to do what he did every week and I hope for him it has been a decent pay day. Any subscription is too much for me as i’m not a very regular user and money is tight. What a shame, but i have to accept what’s happened of course!
Two other very good aspects of indieVelo could have been mentioned in the article:
1) indieVelo has very good virtual shifting that can be used by all smart trainers
2) There is a pretty nice wind and draft simulation in indieVelo that can be seen on screen and felt while riding
As far as free apps are concerned you might want to look at biketerra. Could become interesting in the future, virtual rinding in a browser. If the development pace keeps constant it could become a nice free alternative. Have a look at the changelog:
link to biketerra.com
TrainerDay is $4/month
125$/year is really fair isn’t it?
Droga, vou desinstalar o aplicativo. 1
I am similar to your wife—I subscribe to a coach-developed plan in TP and send the plan’s workouts to Zwift.
I suppose in this case, I also don’t really care where the workout is performed, other than the occasional zone 2 ride where I have to pound out 90 minutes at a specific HR/power setting. In that case, the social side of Zwift is a touch more appealing.
Is TP virtual available to use on my Apple tv?
Hi George!
There was/is a kind of beta available via TestFlight.
With acquisition, I’m not sure if you can apply for the beta and how.
Best
Oliver
Thanks Olly
Hmm, I do hope they keep a mid-priced tier for Indievelo/Trainingpeaks Virtual.
I use TrainerRoad for workouts, and Indievelo for a race once or twice a week.
I’d accept some kind of subscription, but I can’t justify an additional $20pm for that.
If you don’t mind going yearly, the $125 annual subscription is a lot less than Zwift.
I only hope they don’t change their mind and leave the integration with intervals.icu alone.
Same here. Intended to sign up to the founders club this winter, despite not using it that much, having enjoyed IV for a while and wanting to support George. The latter has gone away obviously, but would still consider a cheaper yearly sub for it as I like the platform and routes. TP Premium would be too much for me though, but extremely chuffed for George with this turn of events.
TP annual costs less than founders club
$125/yr is barely $10/month. That’s pretty cheap for the benefits received.
I’d seen the $19.99/month figure for TP Premium, which was a huge uplift vs Founders Club, but somehow missed the $124.99/year …. d’oh. Definitely in the ballpark then.
Not sure what i’d use from TP, to be honest, that i’m not getting elsewhere but worth a look too.
Sadly this news I was expecting for a while. It was always the case George spent the time and effort to sell it off. I only used it as it was free and I get bored of others whether free or not, so no big deal to me I have to say !
Training Peaks should develop a new feature for people like your wife and myself. It could be included in the TP Premium account and look something like TraineRoad. It could execute the structured w/o’s from your TrainingPeaks account on screen. For many of us that is all we really need.
Where’s the value prop in that – in addition to the platforms, if all you really want to do is load a workout and pedal looking at a data screen and literally nothing more, you can just use your garmin and ANT+ control.
That seems like a waste of programming resources to address what is a fundamentally solved problem.
Serious bummer.. would have been nice to have a real zwift alternative for a reasonable monthly fee, guess you had to pay into the founders club to work through the growing pains of the platform and for 13/month that was hard to swallow…. I hated not knowing if I was riding with all bots and the rider and bike/rider movement kind weirded me out – mechanical.
Impressive nonetheless to get to where it went, but for 20/year not worth leaving zwift as much as I hate the way they operate..
TrainingPeaks is $10/month with the yearly plan. That’s pretty reasonable
I think this is a very interesting move for TP. I tried IV and liked it, ultimately stuck with Zwift mostly because my PC died and Apple TV was a more simple replacement option.
I agree with your point, if TP can stay out of the way, let IV continue to develop, they could start to bring some people back that have left over the years. I think the idea of swapping a $20 Zwift subscription for a $20 TP subscription makes sense for a lot of people.
I was a closed beta tester and have spent a lot of time in the discord and on the platform.
The name does not have a capital I, indieVelo. George never wanted indieVelo to be abbreviated to IV from intravenous.
That has always bugged me through the journey. I guess now there is worry going forward.
Very happy for George and the platform.
I’m synching TP workouts to Zwift, too.
Always wonder what percentage of Zwift users does that, or custom workouts in general, because they haven’t done anything to improve the overall workout experience in at least 5 years. But we’re clearly not the target audience for the product. Otherwise they might have just bought and integrated TR at some point.
It’s going to be interesting to see if IV is gaining more users through TP premium subscribers, even though they already could have used the platform for free right now, or lose more customers who want a free app to MyWoosh.
Wow, was not expecting this! Currently I use Training Peaks with TrainerDay because I don’t need the social world and TrainerDay is $4/month.
But if this works well, I’ll just save the $4/month.
My worry is that TP mobile apps are terrible and have only improved once in 3 years (adding the analytics/stack-up screen). And the website is mediocre. I don’t trust them to do a good development job with innovation.
I moved across to IndieVelo when Zwift decided they needed a massive price increase. I’ve been happily paying the Founders Club subscription each month but have zero interest in Training Peaks so would see no benefit in taking out a premium subscription to TP just to get access to IV, chances are I’ll go back to Zwift.
But Premium TP is only $125 per year, so $10 a month, this is less than zwift and also less than founders club $13 (that I pay for) it’s not a bad deal at all
Except it is actually a big middle finger to the founders club subscribers. I’m pretty sure on their website they stated that when a subscription model ever comes to IV then they would benefit from a reduced price. Now he has sold out to trainingpeaks, I can’t see them holding that bargain. Even the indievelo has completely removed the founders club page from their website.
If you buy the annual subscription, that price is less than the annual Founder’s Club price. It would be nice if Founder’s Club members get Training Peaks Premium until the end of our current Founder’s Club subscriptions, but I don’t see how this is a slap in the face.
The original wording as I remember it was that, when subscription rates came to iV, Founder’s Club members would initially not pay more than the Founder’s club rate. Since the TP annual rate is less than the Founder’s Club annual rate, I don’t see how this changes anything. Sure, Founder’s Club members don’t appear to be getting anything cheaper than anyone else (still haven’t gotten the email that was promised that’s supposed to tell us how things are going to swap over), but I don’t see how I’m losing anything by this.
If I try Training Peaks and decide that using it means that I can do without intervals or one of the other subscriptions I currently pay for, that would mean I end up saving some money by this merger, which would be nice.
Here’s a copy of what the Founders Club said pre-acquisition. While it does mention a move to commercial and potential discount, I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that carries through to an acquisition.
Plus, as noted, it’s literally cheaper now for TP than Founder Club.
AND the email to user states that Founders Club members will “… receive a separate email about how their benefits will transfer to TrainingPeaks. “
Well, except as I founder I have been given a full year of Training Peaks Premium for free. So not the worst deal and TBH I was paying George as I appreciated what he was trying to build and I stopped giving Zwift £17.99.
I got 5 features I suggested added to the platform and got to wear my club kit all the time. I think it was a fair deal.
Like many others, we praised IV for the progress and speed with which they’ve been developing the platform, especially compared to competitors like Zwift—and, let’s be honest, because it’s free.
However, with the new €20 per month subscription model, people will likely start evaluating it differently. For example, graphics that seem impressive for a free game might be considered inadequate for a €125 per year product.
If IV is offering a €125 annual plan, it would make sense to clearly show what subscribers can expect over the year. A roadmap, new worlds, improved graphics, UI enhancements, or other in-game upgrades would be helpful. Because, realistically, if the price is comparable to competitors like Zwift and Rouvy, users will compare it to those platforms.
I believe IV has the potential to become as successful as Zwift, but starting with a lower price point might be a smarter approach.
With the better racing dynamics and anti-cheating technology TP/Indivelo need to persuade a racing league like WRTL to jump ship from Zwift. Suspect very large proportion of racers are using TP to log activities and training. So getting an established racing league to move would be a logical move and probably attract a lot of zwift users to make the switch as there’s lots of frustration with the slow pace of changes in zwift and concentration as a game rather than training and racing tool
This to me has always been the selling point of iV. It’s not just the anti-cheating aspects that this article outlines; it’s the diversity of racing on the platform. Points races, Keirins, elimination, etc.–it’s not just a bunch of scratch races that always end in a bunch sprint. Racing on Zwift is so homogenous (the newly introduced scoring system has not changed this at all) in the way they play out that once I started participating on indie there was no going back to the big orange Z. I’m sure you’ve also seen all the series that have started popping up. (Being able to run your own series is also another massive thing.). I’d love to see some of the bigger series consider this platform as the proper place to run a race.
I for one am quite excited by this, as someone who has on-again/off-again paid for Training Peaks (currently “off again”, and same for Zwift over the years, this, combined with the Polar integration announcement for Q1 or whenever coming up…. this gives me a reason to “on-again”… I’ve used TP as a repository for years, as I’ve played with various watch brands (Coros, Garmin, Polar) as well as Zwift data (Yeah, it’s a mess in my TP, LOL, have to delete lots of dupe stuff every now and then)…
These changes potentially make for solid reasons to absolutely subscribe and centralize on TP that didn’t exist before (assuming the riding experience is enjoyable, I’ve not tried it but from the screenshots and DCR description, sounds likely it’s perfectly good).
Bottom line, some people may be like me, they really like TP for both planning and analysis (it’s like a more nerdy/less pretty version of Polar Flow in my book, and way more cohesive than Connect), but it’s not QUITE valuable enough to keep all the time… but with the extra value-adds coming in for the premium tier, if they keep pricing the same (sounds like the initial plan)… now the value is much higher for those who might use those extra things.
It’s exciting and nervy at the same time. The good thing is, George tends to make excellent decisions so I trust this one is going to pay of for iV (TPV) users long-term.
Two words: Zwift cog
(I was planning to buy a Zwift cog trainer, but now I am thinking again, specially because I already pay for Training Peaks Premium, but, the Zwift Cog trainers are much cheaper than the non Zwift cog equipped)
The cost is incremental, isn’t it? You can get a zwift cog trainer and then change to a cassette.
TBH if TP keep it open to Intervals that would be crazy …
However don’t forget can use strava to do the same thing and not pay but who knows how long that will stay ?
I agree, that’s why I’m worried :-\
eventually free can not last as someone has to pay costs. IV was always clearly going to be sold to do that, I am surprised it was TP though.
Two other very good aspects of indieVelo could have been mentioned in the article:
1) indieVelo has very good virtual shifting that can be used by all smart trainers
2) There is a pretty nice wind and draft simulation in indieVelo that can be seen on screen and felt while riding
As far as free apps are concerned you might want to look at biketerra. Could become interesting in the future, virtual rinding in a browser. If the development pace keeps constant it could become a nice free alternative. Have a look at the changelog:
link to biketerra.com
I love IndieVelo, and all the work done. But, let’s be honest, I can’t really call Virtual Shifting all that great. And that’s no fault of George’s, that’s the trainer companies being stuck on Zwift.
Having to use a keyboard isn’t really awesome. Again, I don’t fault Geoge there, but I can’t with a straight face say that’s really a comparable feature to what Zwift has natively now.
The good thing about the keyboard, is that keyboard commands are easily mappable to other things. iV also supports game controllers. I personally use Avotro handlebar controllers to control everything on iV apart from chat.
My other issue with any virtual racing platform other than Zwift is… running.
I have no problem running outside, all the year, but here in the house there are some people who don’t like that idea very much, specially when is raining or hailing or there is wind over the 40 kilometres per hour.
How many people use TrainingPeaks? Is that public information?
None public. The closest public statement I’m aware of is in 2017, they published a year by numbers: link to trainingpeaks.com
That dives into just how massive it was (7 years ago), and it’s only continued to grow.
Ray, those numbers aren’t massive. e.g. the 38 million workouts planned – I plan 7-9 workouts a week, but let’s say the average is 5 per week for most people. That would be 146,000 people.
If instead you assumed 2 workouts per week average (unlikely that low), that’s still only 365,000 people.
The thing is, a lot of people don’t actually plan workouts on Training Peaks. It’s just used as a data repository for a lot of athletes. I’d bet of their active/paying user base, planned workouts represent less than half of users.
And then of those users, planned workouts probably are only a certain chunk of the year. Also, 7 years ago was a time when far less devices supported TrainingPeaks workouts (e.g. no Suunto, no Polar, no Apple, and not even Wahoo had structured workouts back then). Basically, it was Garmin…or…Garmin.
Actually I think this isn’t as bad as first seems. I have always felt that Training Peaks is massively overpriced, however this now makes it a good value proposition especially on the annual plan. However that is only if TP can get decent number of users on the platform and if they provide some form of included training plans
Last time I checked indieVelo the only world was the island…and new routes entailed re-arranging the roads. To compete with Zwift, for me, they need new worlds. I get bored easily. TP means nothing to me as I do not do structured workouts so the virtual world would have to carry the load of my interest.
If I every left Zwift it would be to BigRingVr or Rouvy.
I keep meaning to check it out but that’s disappointing if it lacks content. When I started with Zwift in 2020 it was fun working through all the routes especially the super long ones and doing the first AdZ climb but despite the basic graphics and relatively basic interaction in the environment (just bikes going by with a fixed camera) their content seems to almost come to a complete halt. I know there’s meant to be a new expansion at the end of Tour of Watopia but it looks similar in scale to the grade and the one that goes along the coastline, both ok additions but very minor
That’s an interesting one as in 2020 Zwift was quite a mature product. I was on it from beta and it only had Jarvis island, 1 route 5km.
TVP (iV) is at that stage now, but has 2 islands and more routes, the game has been built much more around strong foundations and amazing physics, with wind, proper draft and you can’t ride through each other 🤣 and so many race formats, elimination, TT, points races with live scoreboards.
The racing is totally fair and tier one races use Performance verification so you can’t do microbursting or sticky watts or badly calibrated trainers etc.
It tricky to compare with Zwift as its a pretty different product and IMHO aimed a different kind of rider. If you want free and stuff to look at the MW is possibly better
After Zwift raised their prices to $20/month in May, I cancelled my account & started using myWhoosh. Despite it feeling gross because it’s owned by UAE, it was free. And since I really only use the virtual software for training & not racing, I did not care about it having a smaller user base. Before today, I had not even heard of indieVelo, but because (like most) I have a TP account through my coach, I may give it a try. Best case, I get something closer to that Zwift experience & it is still free. Worst case, I go back to myWhoosh…& it’s still free.
Weird question: I’m a bottom of the barrel D cat rider on Zwift. Is there anyone like me on Training Peaks Virtual? I really enjoy racing, but wouldn’t jump ship if my races are just me vs. one or two other people.
Hi Myles
There aren’t a huge number of riders at our bottom of the barrel level but what makes the platform absolutely great is the ability matched pen system whereby you can race against bots (or humans as it’s impossible to tell them apart) and have some great racing.
For example I run a weekly series where the winner of the level 7 race gets the same points as the winner of the level 1 race so everyone is motivated not just a select few.
100%
The racing on TVP is way fairer than Zwift. I left Zwift after 9 years due to my dissatisfaction with fair racing. The beauty of TVP (iV) is that there are also bots of all abilities with real CP Curves and W’. If you do a matchmaking race the participants are split into pens of ability 1 min before the start. That way you race with people/bots of a similar ability and non one rips the race apart by bering in the wrong pen.
Is TP virtual available to use on my Apple tv?
I asked TrainingPeaks support to add me to the Apple TV beta users and they said they are no longer supporting Apple TV.
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As a coach, this is awesome news for me. Now my athletes and I will have a virtual cycling app built right in, instead of me having to explain to them that they’ll likely need an additional subscription (if they don’t want to train staring at a wall lol). Are group rides possible? Excited to try it out!
Group rides as well as group workouts 😄
I’ve been playing with indieVelo for quite some time now. I’m also coached on TP. So, just natural that I’d try to install TP Virtual. No go. Installer got to 100% and then locked my computer (W10). Forced a reboot, saw that TP Virtual was installed (menu) and tried to run it. Lots of checking and double checking followed by…100% install and complete non-responsiveness. Maybe this is b/c I also have indieVelo installed, but someone wake me up when this issue is resolved.
On PC you need to right click and run as Admin the first time you run it.
I saw some notes on the IndieVelo FB forums that all sorts of people were getting hung installers today. I assume something behind the scenes minor changed that wasn’t caught till at scale (seemed vaguely like a DNS type issue). I’d probably give it another whirl today.
Some people reported that running it as Administrator (if on Windows) seemed to solve the problem. Wasn’t required for me on Mac.
Fixed today with a new installer that everyone should use.
George updated the installer for TPV this evening. No need to use Administrator on Windows now.
Ray, have you tested the Android version? I tried it for the first time today and it is buggy. It wouldn’t even get into the session because it kept telling me it found my Tacx but it had no signal (which makes no sense). I tried unpairing, turning off/on Bluetooth, closing, opening the app but none of that worked. Then I force stopped it and cleared the cache (something I haven’t had to do in an android app in 3 years) and when I reopened it, everything I had unpaired was paired and working. Not a great experience.
No, I haven’t tried the Android version. Just Mac and Apple TV (and maybe PC a while back).
I think the integration of virtual reality training with comprehensive structured training and coaching is great and the logical way forward. Seamless integration of training, whether outside or virtual, without having to think too hard about how the workout gets to your head unit (watch or tablet etc…) and without duplication (watch and tablet etc…) will be great.
The weather is so changeable these days that on occasions training outside is not really a sensible option (ironic that this virtual reality is probably hosted on some gas guzzling server somewhere!).
I am another user with no interest in the social aspects/community but just have it burbling away in the background (while watching TV on another screen!). There are some good cycling videos on Youtube too which pretty much does the same thing for me and is free.
The name suggests a cycling focus. Will other sports such as running be supported in time? It would be good to get proper support for running. Zwift does but it is half hearted and does not appear to be being actively developed.
The name IndieVelo was very much a cycling name.
TrainingPeaks Virtual sounds much more like a virtual place to train. I won’t bet my house, but it seams a no brainer to add running to fit with TPs core users and would be surprised if it didn’t get added.
I’ve tried indieVelo a few times and it looked pretty cool but indoors I do mostly structured workouts using ERG but their workout library is pretty weak compared to Zwift/TrainerRoad/MyWhoosh.
Also the lack of a direct Garmin integration is a minus. If they can “fix” these two points in the comming months i’ll serious consider subscribing.
“Also the lack of a direct Garmin integration is a minus. If they can “fix” these two points in the comming months i’ll serious consider subscribing.”
Sadly, Garmin says that inbound API is closed to new trainer app companies (and has been for a few years now). Once they had the Tacx app, they basically stopped new entrants. Far larger apps have gotten denied. About the only app that Garmin would approve these days is Peloton, if Peloton wanted, given the value/size of the platform.
Considering that TP already can push workouts to Garmin I though that they could also start to push activities but they probably don’t have access to that API and like you said the chances of Garmin opening that door is 0.
It can be done manually tough… But an integrated process is much more user-friendly.
Which potential integration are missing? Is it the ‘pushing’ of activities from TP into Garmin Connect? I believe it does work the other way around (ie, activities from GC can sync to TP)? And TP can push workouts (including scheduled workouts from training plans) to GC, correct?
With IV/TPV, I suppose the way to go is dual recording of workouts both in the IV/TPV app and on a Garmin device, but either delete the duplicate activity in TP or not sync those activities from GC to TP.
Is that understanding correct?
The integration missing is pushing completed activities into Garmin Connect, like what you get with Zwift or TrainerRoad.
The only option right now is to upload the fit file manually or dual recording like you mention. The integration avoids the hassle of having to delete the duplicates.
I guess we’ll see more consolidations in the coming years like this TP & IV merger. I wonder if, as an example, Strava is already looking around to onboard a virtual riding platform.
Hi, is it possible to upload the trainings into my garmin app?
I don’t understand why no one has implemented a more realistic representation of structured training so far. A route with low intensity must under no circumstances lead uphill where you then mutate to a crawl etc. This then leads to the fact that the graphic representation is not taken into account anyway by the User and could then just as well be omitted.
Maybe TP is interested in improving something here in their own field!
Goodbye IndieVelo innovation. TrainingPeaks hasn’t bothered developing better graphs and analytics for decades, and it became the annoying platform trying to sell you their stuff non-stop, even to coach accounts clients. It’s workout builder is also outdated and slow. And it’s expensive. So many platforms outperform TrainingPeaks and yet, it’s the only auto-sync training platform with Zwift and so many coaching businesses and athletes continue to use it.
I am not excited about this partnership at all.
so lessons learned from the wahoo RGT debacle? indievelo will ask huge resources to expand. also will zwift let their ex employee get away with this?
George wasn’t an employee of zwift. He was contracted.
Did I understand your video to say that if you are a TP Premium member, you will automatically have the indievelo included?
If so, is it there now? If it is, how do I access it?
Should be a big link on the TP homepage!
Well. the whole situation for me is pretty meta. I’m on zwift b/c I have a Sufferfest/WahooX subscription and they kneecapped their integrated virtual riding platform (RGT). I got a year of Zwift as compensation. So, that’s ending soon. I’m a coached athlete on TP, so ‘premium’ on TP. Now I have access to indieVelo…ummm…TP Virtual as an integrated virtual riding platform. I was using indieVelo off and on for some time – it’s pretty good, excellent for free and the updates/communications were 1st rate. But…but…but…Wahoo/Sufferfest/WahooX could not make RGT a profitable component of their business model. Will TP be any different with indieVelo/TPV? Time will tell and the two business cases have some differences – but some similarities. I agree with most – it’s now time for TPV to expand the environment and develop the community…
As a coach of a High School road racing team with a 15-station Kickr spin studio I LOVE this. We buy a special school team coach edition of TP that allows us to have a premium coach TP account and upgrade all our athletes to premium TP but then to really do indoor training we’ve had to have all of them buy Zwift accounts. Now, we could pivot to using TP Virtual and our students would not need to pay $199 for an annual Zwift membership.
It also sounds like this will allow us to host our own races or race series for just our team or to race against other schools, which sounds awesome!
Yes you can set up your own races or series and set up with a 6 digit access code. Just share the event link and code with those you wish to include.
Also you can do group workouts where only the event creator needs the workout and all can follow which sounds good for your set up.
at the end of the day u get A LOT more for a TP Premium subscription with IV than a Zwift subs. Now hopefully TP stays out the way and let the development continue at a rapid pace (perhaps provide more resources) instead of becoming a blocker.
What about Apple TV? I think it will open up significant access to a lot of people, especially those already using Zwift on Apple TV.
Would also like to find this. It was a hidden feature of IV unless you paid but I can’t see it as an ultimate TP user
Confirmed available and running on AppleTV.
Where is the third button?
At this price, you would think Coros could afford a third button.
Having been a TP member for a while, I gave this a shot yesterday. It was…fine. I’m more into structured workouts than racing, so the virtual environment isn’t a big draw for me (I’ll be keeping my Trainer Day subscription).
At the end of my structured workout, which I had designed in TP, TPV did…nothing. As far as it was concerned, I should have just kept on riding. Seems like it should at least pop up a “finish your workout” button.
Getting get data *out* was irritating. On iOS, there are the apps RunGap and HealthFit for syncing, but indieVelo has never had a connection to either, and still doesn’t. There is also no way to export a .fit file from the TPV app. Had to log into the TP website on my desktop and download the .fit file from there.
The locations TPV app puts your completed .FIT file in: link to wiki.indievelo.com
It also syncs to Strava, and other platforms. Which cycling training platforms like direct to HealthFit and RunGap?
Huh. Thanks for that.
Apple’s own Health/Workouts apps connect to both RunGap and HealthFit. Ride with GPS, Komoot, Cycling Analytics, and so on. RunGap connects to 40 different services, HealthFit to 25, not including connections to the local file store and iCloud.
Technically speaking, Apple actually just connects to HealthKit, and then RunGap and HealthFit pull from it. But RunGap and HealthFit both support TrainingPeaks just fine.
Now, IndieVelo could do more to push into HealthKit (Apple Health), but I suspect that was a very low-requested item, else George probably would have added it.
Ray, the spammer “David” in post #61 might be here about your helicopter yacht 😉
First thing I noticed was how much the UI feels like a Zwift clone, especially the fonts and iconography (and on “The Hub” screens especially). At times I wasn’t sure which app was being shown in the video. I realize it’s cycling and there’s only so much variety to present the same info, but one wonders how jumpy the IP lawyers will be now after the acquisition…
Would be great to see them develop a more distinctive style and featured UI for cycling with less of the gamey Fisher-Price flavour of Zwift.
It’s the cost of a pair of decent tires… which you are not wearing out while riding the trainer.
The whiners and complainers about cost are ignoring what they’re spending on riding outdoors.
Zwift was developed with the idea that riding a trainer was boring, so we need to make it as exciting as possible, adding in surreal scenery and power-ups to keep riders engaged.
RGT was developed with the idea that Zwift lacked racing realism, and race realism included real-world courses, as well as corner braking, better pack dynamics, and manual steering to facilitate racing tactics like holding a wheel or getting a clean line to attack. But it was missing the most important factor: riders. And it failed to support community organizers, although it provided them with custom “branding” for in-game logos. But no riders, no racing. So t died.
Biketerra has taken up the custom course task, and does it much better than RGT did with real-world terrain beyond the course profile. But it’s not attempting to be a race simulator yet.
Indie Velo came along and decided to go all in on racing: focus on organizer support, superior pack dynamics, various event types. It completely neglected the “world”: riding around in the game I find to be incredibly dull, unlike in Zwift. And no real-world courses. The focus was completely on the events. And it’s gotten some traction.
It will be interesting where TP takes it: will the world be enhanced? Will they support custom courses? Will it hold onto a critical mass of racers, without the silly bots which have been for me a turn-off? I don’t know. The market simply isn’t big enough to support too many players, and MyWhoosh is making a play for the cheapskates with its oil money business model (to me MyWhoosh racing dynamics appear inferior to Zwift, but I’ve not tried it myself).
Thanks for the update. Can you do a short video about the Indievelo virtual gear settings? In particular can it be turned off? (Without a controller, I find it a bother to have to use the keyboard to shift). Many thanks!!! Best, Louie
Yup, you can turn it off. No reason to use it if you don’t want to.
Hi again Thought that I had replied but it appears that my last posting did not post. If this is a dupe…sorry!
Good to hear that it can be turned off. Can you tell me how to turn it off? Have looked (emarrasse to say how long!) but cannot find how to do it. (I have it set up on a Mac) Again, thanks so much!
It’s only on if you shift gears virtually, if you don’t press they change gear keys,, then virtual gears are irrelevant.
Great write up – any idea if TPVirtual can be loaded up on a Peloton similar to how you’ve described the same process with Zwift?
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Looking forward to trying this out. I pay for TrainingPeaks for structured workouts from a coach. Then for the winter months pay a Zwift subscription also. Nice to get rid of a subscription where possible!