Elite has just announced a new smart-bike setup of sorts, as well as two new trainers. The new smart bike is effectively an upscale take on the also recently announced Zwift Ride, seemingly addressing the three most common complaints of that unit, albeit, for a price. This includes things like adjustable crank arm length, a belt drive, as well as Elite RIZER compatibility.
Meanwhile, the company has also announced two new trainers. Or rather, one entirely new trainer line, Avanti, and then the second edition of another, Justo 2. In both cases, both units get built-in WiFi, while the Justo 2 gets an included 12-speed cassette.
Of course, these units were just announced, and I haven’t had any real rides on them yet – just some brief time pre-show on the Eurobike show floor. Still, I’ve got a couple of quick thoughts we’ll dive into down below.
Elite Square Smart Trainer Frame:
The Elite Square follows in the mold of being a smart bike, without the baggage of a smart bike. It’s technically just a frame, but with built-in handlebars and virtual shifting like a smart bike. Except, without the baggage of the smart bike. No dealing with massive units that are impossible to upgrade, no dealing with massive units that are expensive to ship, and no dealing with massive units that are a nightmare to repair/get fixed when something goes wrong.
Of course, the even more interesting thing here is that you can actually pair this frame with *any* trainer, not just Elite trainers. That’s because, in effect, the Square is attaching to its own little cassette of sorts. So, for a 3rd party trainer, you can just mount that new belt-cassette onto the existing trainer using existing free hub standards.
But let’s back up a second, the Elite Square features four big-ticket items that the Zwift Ride Frame doesn’t:
1) Adjustable crank length (165/167.5/170/172.5/175mm)
2) Belt drive for entirely silent operation
3) Support for Elite Rizer gradient simulator accessory
4) Proper road-bike style shifters, as opposed to game-style buttons for shifters
In addition, it also has more adjustability, specifically, the ability to slide the saddle forward/back.
When it comes to that belt drive system, as noted, it effectively attaches to any trainer using a new-style cassette on the back.
To attach the frame to the trainer, you’ll lower a tension adjustment lever on the back of the frame (below the seat post, as seen in the video), which then removes tension. From there, there’s one additional bolt that must be loosened up.
From a ride feel standpoint, it felt pretty good when paired to an Elite Avanti trainer. But I was just in street clothes and running shoes on the Eurobike show floor, so hardly a very useful test. But everything did feel smooth.
Here’s a closer look at the adjustable crank length system, which is kinda like what we see on other smart bikes for adjustable crank length, except frankly, a whole lot cleaner looking than most of those.
For the remaining adjustability, here’s some fit-type spec goodness:
– Minimum rider height: 152cm / 4’11”
– Maximum rider height: 198cm / 6’6”
– Maximum rider weight: 110kg / 242.51lbs
And then here’s a quick page of all the rest of the fit coordinates:
Next up is the handlebars. These handlebars feature both clickity-clackity actual real-bike style shifters, as well as built-in Zwift Play style control buttons, for controlling both Zwift and other apps/devices. For example, here they’ve got it also set up to control the fan speed.
On the shifting, you can customize both the shifting style – such as SRAM/Shimano/Campagnolo, as well as the entire virtual gearing setup (exact gears you want, and the number of gears).
You can also do the more basic sequential style-shifting.
For gearing, you can choose a virtual cassette with 10/11/12/13 speeds, as well as the number of teeth for each cog, from 9 to 52. You can select 1-3 chainrings, and the number of teeth from 60 to 22. You can further create specific ride profiles too, saved for quick swapping (e.g., hilly vs flat). All of this is done with the Elite App, roughly like other smart bikes. The controllers are run using a coin cell battery (CR2032), which is found on the inside of the handlebars, and easily accessed. Though, the battery life there is 80 hours, so a bit less than I’d have hoped. Albeit, 80 hours of actual indoor ride time is still a fair bit for most people.
One other nice touch is that they’ve built in a Garmin quarter-turn mount. This allows you to quickly mount your Garmin Edge device there. Of course, it’d be easy enough to get a plastic insert made for Wahoo-style mounts too:
Ultimately, the Square is a pretty interesting option. Of course, priced at 1,250EUR for just the Elite Square (not including a trainer), it’s the same price as the Zwift Ride (including trainer). Zwift expects to start selling the standalone Zwift Ride Frame later this summer (likely in late August or early September), and while they haven’t announced exact pricing, I’m told to expect it to be roughly the simple math of the total price, minus a Wahoo KICKR CORE+COG+PLAY. That’d put the Zwift Frame somewhere in the $600-$700 ballpark, depending on how one prices the above components.
So basically, the Elite Square is twice the price(ish). Of course, with that increased price you’re getting a belt drive, adjustable crank length, more adjustability in rider positioning, Elite Rizer compatibility, and much better feeling shifters. A lot of people asked for that on the Zwift Ride, without probably realizing each of those four things costs more money. Here’s roughly how much more money it costs in real life.
It’ll be up to you to decide whether or not those extra features are worth the cash – much like pretty much every other higher-priced thing in the indoor cycling world. Still, it’s cool to see these concepts exist, which continue to be a fraction of the price of the larger and bulkier smart bikes.
Elite Avanti Smart Trainer:
Next up we’ve got the new Elite Avanti lineup. This is effectively a head-to-head competitor with the Wahoo KICKR CORE series (including the Zwift Hub One variant of it). Except Elite is aiming to one-up the Wahoo/Zwift offering in pretty much every possible spec department. Albeit, at a slight premium to that price.
The biggest ticket item here is the inclusion of WiFi, but also things like Race Mode in Zwift, as well as lateral sway/movement. Plus a higher accuracy spec, higher simulated gradient, and heart rate bridging/passthrough to solve the issue on Apple TV.
Here’s the tech specs for the Elite Avanti smart trainer:
– Direct drive trainer: This means you remove your rear wheel
– Flywheel: It has a flywheel weight of 4kg/8.8lbs
– Cassette: Not included, compatible 9-12speed
– Sound: Essentially silent.
– Handle: Yes
– Flexible Feet for Motion/Sway: Yes, 4.5° lateral sway
– Protocol Compatibility: ANT+ FE-C, ANT+ Power, Dual Bluetooth Smart Trainer Control, WiFi DirCon, Bluetooth Smart Power (everything you need).
– WiFi: Yes, Direct Connect to all apps via WiFi
– Wired Ethernet: With Elite Gateway accessory
– Zwift Race Mode: Yes, 10 Hz
– Heart Rate & Cadence Bridging: Yes, can rebroadcast your heart rate sensor within a single channel, ideal for Apple TV Zwift users (who are Bluetooth channel limited)
– Control trainer from Di2 buttons in ERG mode: Using The Elite My E-Training app, you can increase/decrease resistance levels using the Di2 extra buttons
– App Compatibility: Anything and everything
– Skewer Compatibility: All the skewers and adapters you could ask for: Road 130mm, 135mm, 142x12mm
– RIZER Compatible: Yes
– Max Incline: 18% simulated grade
– Max Wattage: 2,100 watts resistance (2,100w at 40KPH, 920w @ 20KPH)
– Stated Accuracy: < +/1.0%, Automatic Calibration
– Power Cable Required: Yes, power block compatible with 100-240v
– Pricing and Availability: €749/$849 August for Europe, September rest of world
In this case, I didn’t have a chance to ride the unit yet, since it was physically mounted to a shelf. Though, I did convince them to spend about 20 minutes detaching the 78 bolts that had been used to hard-attach it to the shelf, to put on the ground for some photos. I’m sure the Elite booth folks love me now.
Below is the back of the unit, for both the power plug as well as the Ethernet adapter port (in case you wanted a wired connection via Ethernet with their Elite Gateway accessory).
My initial thoughts are that this is super interesting as a mid-tier trainer. It’s certainly one-upping the specs of the Wahoo/Zwift offerings, but at that slight price premium. The KICKR CORE is selling for about $500 these days, and with the bundles from Zwift, you’re looking at around $650 or so. This is a bit higher at $849, but with added features like Race Mode and WiFi, it’ll appeal to a higher-end audience. Same goes with higher gradient simulation. But features like heart rate bridging are genuinely useful for all riders, especially (actually almost entirely) for Apple TV users, that run up against the limitations there. All while sticking the landing with a +/- 1% accuracy claim.
But of course, my favorite feature is the tiny little drawer holding all the axle adapters, that hangs out in the bottom of the trainer:
Years ago, when James Huang reviewed the Wahoo KICKR CLIMB, he noted that it’d be awesome to have a small compartment to hold all these adapters, else they get lost. Finally, that’s arrived. Only took 6 years. Still, kudos to Elite here.
Nonetheless, I’m keen to see how all these things hold up in real-world usage of course – including both bits like road feel, as well as, of course…accuracy. Assuming it’s just a mini-version of the Elite Justo, then all will likely be well.
Elite Justo 2 Smart Trainer:
Next up is the Elite Justo 2, which is a minor incremental update to the Justo 1, which was announced two years ago this week, which adds the following features:
– WiFi built-in
– Switch to 12-speed cassette included
That’s it. Quick and easy. Elite says that they didn’t want a scenario where the cheaper Avanti had WiFi, but the Justo 2 didn’t. This solves that. And of course, the upgrade to 12-speed is logical given the target market here.
In any case, here’s the Justo 2 specs:
– Direct drive trainer: This means you remove your rear wheel
– Flywheel: It has a flywheel weight of 7.2kg/15.98lbs
– Cassette: 12-speed cassette
– Sound: Essentially silent
– Handle: Yes
– Flexible Feet for Motion/Sway: Yes, both 7° and 4.5° lateral sway feet
– Protocol Compatibility: ANT+ FE-C, ANT+ Power, Dual Bluetooth Smart Trainer Control, WiFi DirCon, Bluetooth Smart Power (everything you need).
– WiFi: Yes, Direct Connect to all apps via WiFi
– Wired Ethernet: With Elite Gateway accessory
– Zwift Race Mode: Yes, 10 Hz
– Heart Rate & Cadence Bridging: Yes, can rebroadcast your heart rate sensor within a single channel, ideal for Apple TV Zwift users (who are Bluetooth channel limited)
– Control trainer from Di2 buttons in ERG mode: Using The Elite My E-Training app, you can increase/decrease resistance levels using the Di2 extra buttons
– App Compatibility: Anything and everything
– Skewer Compatibility: All the skewers and adapters you could ask for: Road 130mm, 135mm, 142x12mm
– RIZER Compatible: Yes
– Max Incline: 24% simulated grade
– Max Wattage: 2,300 watts resistance (2,100w at 40KPH, 920w @ 20KPH)
– Stated Accuracy: +/1.0%, Automatic Calibration
– Power Cable Required: Yes, power block compatible with 100-240v
– Pricing and Availability: €1099/$1,199 – August for Europe, September rest of world
Just in case you’re trying to figure out the actual differences between Avanti and Justo 2, they are:
1) Justo 2 is $1,199 vs $849 on Avanti
2) Gradient simulation is 24% on Justo 2, and 18% on Avanti
3) Justo 2 includes a 12-speed cassette, Avanti doesn’t include a cassette
4) The flywheel weight is bigger on Justo 2 at 7.2kg versus 4kg on Avanti
5) Justo 2 claims greater than +/-1.0 % accuracy, versus +/- 1% for Avanti
6) Justo 2 includes two different flex feet styles, versus one set for Avanti
7) Slightly higher max wattage of 2,300w on Justo 2 versus 2,100w on Avanti
8) The Justo 2 includes 2 years of the Elite app, versus 1 year on the Avanti
9) That said, only Avanti includes the new bottom axle accessory drawer
Got all that? Good.
Going Forward:
Obviously, down the road, I’ll have in-depth reviews of all these things. Likely Avanti and Justo 2 first, sometime in the August-ish timeframe, and then following with the Square in the November-ish timeframe. Some of that will depend on exactly when units arrive at the DCR Cave, and how deep the queue is at that point. Currently, I’m predicting a very long queue this year, between indoor trainers and smart bikes.
Still, I’m looking forward to it – especially for both Avanti as well as the Square, and then, the two of them together of course.
With that – thanks for reading, and stay tuned for plenty more from Eurobike!
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Thats looks promising.
Looking forward to see what other companies have to offer at Eurobike.
Assuming this thing will be App-neutral. So will support “free ride” across all apps and not just ERG-mode like the Zwift Ride?
Yup, correct!
It’s almost as if dedicated hardware companies know how to make hardware than other want-to-it-all entities. Thanks for the write-up !
Hi Ray, a question not only refferring to Elite product. I train a lot in TT position with aero bars and it seem to me that there is still nothing ‘smart’ for this kind of bike except for the “trainer plus tt bike” combination and even in this case the button are not easy to use.
IS there a better way?
Hmm, not at the moment, as you couldn’t really use the Zwift Click with this at this point, unless I suppose you were paired to a trainer that supports the Click. Currently no Elite trainers do.
So I could mount the Square on a Tacx Neo and freeride Fulgaz with no problem? Great!
you can :-)
Thanks Mattia, sign me up in the UK!
You won’t be able to use the riser though as the Neo doesn’t support the ability for the frame to be able to shift up and down the way its mounted…
Hi Mattia I sent you a direct message about UK delivery of Square, hoping you don’t mind!
I’m thinking about investing in my first indoor bike setup that’s very “app-neutral”, will be compatible with anything, reliable and “maintenance free” over the next 5-8 years. This new option looks very interesting! Zwift Frame is absolutely no-go due to the propriety nature of it and other limitations. I don’t want to constantly pay subscription fees.
Would Elite Square Smart Frame make sense to combined with Jetblack Victory, that’s much cheaper than Avanti? Would it work together and be cheaper/better than alternatives? In the future I’d extend it with the climb option.
I will, of course, keep an eye on other stuff presented on Eurobike.
The Italian flair you would associate with design appears lacking in The Square? It’s no looker, aesthetics aside, has decent features but is that the final product or protype? The Zwift Ride kicks its ass on looks….
For me, the design doesn’t matter. Square, Round, or Frame. Just quality/price, maintenance, repairability and open platform. Zwift Ride is too coupled with the Zwift online platform for me.
Elite’s designs have always been function driven.
Also maybe the issue is that the Rizer is visually different from the rest with it’s rounded silver design.
I was at Eurobike yesterday and I would say that the Square looks much better in person because the build quality is so good.
In any case I think it’s a really solid product. For me, 3rd party compatibility is a necessity. The Square is the best product of this kind right now.
Does The Frame virtual shifting work only with the Avanti? How about older Elites like the Direto XR? Or perhaps (dreaming) it can work with any smart trainer similarly to how indieVelo does? Thanks!
Ciao Todd, the virtual shifiting Elite has developed in the Square works with no connection at all with any indoor training app. That means it works with any smart trainer of both Elite and other brands al long as they come with FEC communication protocol. Indeed the trainer only will be connected to the software while the Square won’t. So yes the Direto XR is compatible and works superbly well. And again, since the Square virtual shifting is not controlled by any app’s protocol, it can work with all these apps.
The trainer will be controlled both by Square (virtual shifting) and by the app (e.g. braking while you hit a climb).
What happens when I’m in ERG mode and use virtual shifting?
In my setup I use a softer gear for ERG because if I would set a harder gear the vibration / inertia of the trainer would be greater.
Would this be identical with virtual shifting? Would shifting up during an ERG mode session increase the vibration / inertia of the trainer and virtual shifting down reduce the vibration / inertia of the trainer??
Compatible with the regular Direto as well?
Maybe I missed it, but does the frame come with a “fork” or something similiar? Or do you need a Rizer? Would it be compatible to the Kickr Climb as well?
Ciao Thomas, it’s got its own fork which in this video was removed because of the Elite Rizer. The Square is not compatible with Kickr Climb right now.
Mattia, what will be the price for UK consumers in GBP and how soon will the Square be available? Thanks
Both price and availability should be decided soon. The price won’t drastically be far away from 1250 euro while availability I’d say around mid Nov and mid Dec
There is a photo above, showing the Square with the regular fork. It’s the one with the plain white background.
*Update…err…I guess I didn’t drag it in. Will do in a second.
Really intrigued by the Square (though at 107 kg, I’m close enough to the upper weight limit that I’m not sure I’d want to risk it). It really seems like the buttons would lead to a need to be able to lock out the steering on the Riser. I wonder if that means that virtual shifting is coming to their “legacy” trainers soon (I ride Elite Direto XR-T).
If cross-brand compatibility is an option, the Square plus the JetBlack Victory would provide just about everything that is lacking in the Zwift Ride for a small-ish premium. If they worked together (and I was in the market for something like that), that’s they way I’d go.
Ciao Paul, by stating 107kg we are actually just following the general guidelines in terms of safety. The Square has been tested with much more weight than 107kg.
The Square is already compatible to Direto XR-T so you can virtually shift. Square is compatible with all the most recent direct drive trainers which come with FEC protocol communication. Both Elite trainers and other brands’ trainers.
so a Tacx Neo 2T will work too with The Square?
yep
Hello.
How much more weight was it tested on? Because i am 125 kg and am very interested in elite square.
Also will it be compatible with saris hammer h3?
Does this frame has the adjustability to mimic a TT/triathlon geometry?
Regarding the Square, does the regular front fork have feet that enable any side-to-side tilting movement, if your attached trainer at the rear also happens to allow some tilting?
Or is the front rock solid stable on the ground, such that it would impede any side-to-side tilting at the trainer end?
In regard to pricing of the Avanti: Why would you compare to a Zwift bundle…it’s only the trainer, right? Therefore, it has to be compared to a Kickr Core at 500$… and, honestly, imho that’s not the same ballpark, it’s not even close, but it’s almost double that price.
I don’t feel that we (or the market) needs more trainers close to a thousand bucks, but more low cost trainers. Or higher end ones with new features.
I personally feel that it is too close to the Justo, both in terms of specs and pricing.
Can you elaborate how the Square connects to a trainer? Do you have to go through the Elite app?
And do you have to go through that each time or does the Square remember the trainer and connect automatically as soon as it wakes up?
I am trying to understand how virtual shifting with a Tacx Neo 1 while free-riding/racing in Zwift will work in practice:
1. Elite Square will connect over ANT+ FE-C protocol to Neo
2. Zwift will connect over ANT+ FE-C protocol to Neo as well
3. Zwift will send incline data to the trainer
4. Square will also increase/decrease resistance/incline based on the user’s shifting
Will the trainer be able to combine this data and provide a smooth experience for free-riding/racing?
Or, after reading the specs for Square: Square will act like a bridge between apps and trainer, and will do the magic of the combing this data (slope and shifting) and send it to the trainer?
How think is the Square’s frame? Is thigh rub a concern like some of the thicker smart bikes?
What’s the real benefit of WiFi connectivity for a trainer? I see discounting on Justo 1s now, but what would I be giving up?
Guessing this frame is a vapor product because I can’t find any website that sells it.
It’s not vapor. It’s a brand new product announcement that is not necessarily linked to actual ability to buy it as of today.
I have a Tacx neo 2T with motion plates. Would the square work with my trainer? Would there be some way to allow the “fork” to move forward and backward? I can imagine making a little motion plate for under the “fork”, but it would be great to have an off the shelf solution.
Not sure I would be ambitious enough to attempt getting the Elite riser to work in this setup—several issues would need resolution: allowing the whole riser to slide front to back, allow the square frame to rotate on the 2t, and finally allow zwift to somehow control the riser which currently requires an elite trainer. While all three are difficult, the last seems insurmountable, unless the square can take the place of the trainer to bridge the riser control.
Also, one question about the square controls, does it have steering controls like zwift play?
Also I wonder how well the shifting works? It sounds too good to be true? There is no precedent for this approach. Did Elite figure out a new way?
Do the handlebars turn? Does the Rizer attchment part use standard Front axle? I love the innovation in this and in the Zwift Ride, but at the same time I’m a bit disappointed that neither seems to be compatible with my Gymrail X1 Rocker. The quick adjustments etc. would enable mutliple users, but it still looks like that thoase with rockers that connect to front axle (Gymrail, E-Flex…) cannot use this or Zwift Ride.
I like the Elite Square brake lever design over the “gamified” version that Zwift Ride bike. I personally want my trainer bike to feel like my real bike, not a game controller.
How close are the major groupset brands to bringing out a “Indoor only” groupset? Either bespoke components (direct to customer or OEM) or repackaged and developed current components? I really like the look of the Elite shifters from this review, more so than the frame etc. Frame adjustability is great if it’s multiple users, but for solo users once you’ve set up, you never touch the adjustability again!
For controlling my Di2 setup and Zwift, I really don’t want shifters AND a Zwift play controller/buttons, I’d much prefer a virtual platform agnostic shifter with the Play Controller bits and pieces also controlling my Di2 mech/derailleur (or eTap or EPS if that’s your flavour). And I’m still in the mind of a cassette over a Zwift cog so that I can use my indoor and road bike on my trainer. I’d love to be able to have my road bike shifters to have the same feel to my indoor shifters but with the added Zwift controls. With current Zwift cog and virtual shift options, as soon as you lose the cassette the normal shift triggers become useless and the indoor/road muscle memory and shift feel changes.
Will Shimano/SRAM/Campag(?)/other Chinese brand come to the market with an “Indoor Groupset”?
* Single crank option but with the crank length variability, greater corrosion resistance on chain rings.
* Beatings sealed for sweat dripping all over them (especially bottom bracket), reliability and efficiency over weight loss.
* Corrosion resilient chain (again, reliability and noise over weight loss)
* No brake options available, as who needs brakes inside??
* Shifters shift button can easily be switched to be assigned to either physical mechs or virtual shifting depending on if your have a cassette or Zwift cog on that session.
* Common/generic mappable/assignable buttons for controlling fans, Zwift/platforms, climb devices, Spotify volume/skip functions etc.
* Brake levers reassigned from physical cable pulls/hydraulic cylinders to in-game virtual braking
* D-fly type link to Zwift/virtual platforms for integrations
* Front mech (optional) greater sweat and corrosion resistance and better sealing, weight is irrelevant
* Rear mech (optional) reliability, weight is irrelevant, slightly greater bash protection if frequent removal
Aesteticly, my wife will leave me if I ever brought that square into our home…
Ray,
Do you know what the effective physical gear combination is for the Square? That is, how many teeth does the front “chainring” have, and how many does the rear “cog”?
Have you asked Elite, Wahoo, etc. why they don’t build in native ethernet instead of requiring stupidly expensive (the Elite ethernet Gateway is like ~$150USD) dongles? How expensive are the parts for native ethernet? $5? $10?
Then they can’t sell you a proprietary 3.5mm TRS or RJ-11 to RJ-45 adapter at 10 000% markup.
It’s hip to be Square ;-) I was about to pull the trigger on the Zwift Ride, but this looks so much better!
With the shifters, adjustable crank lengths, belt drive, rizer compatibility, and standalone mode, I’m sold!
I even prefer the looks.
Sadly not available until December apparently :-(
I just found a great deal on Direto trainer, so I’m gonna use that with my bike in the meantime and get the Square later.
Ray,
On crank arm length: can you change this “on the fly”? That is, once I’ve selected a crank arm length and added my pedals, can I change the crank arm length without removing my pedals?
From Square:
“The handlebar on the Square frame is fixed and non-interchangeable. However, you can customize the handlebar tape to reflect your personal style.”
Bummer… it’s nice having a more flat, ergonomic handlebar indoors.
I don’t understand how the handlebar isn’t replaceable. Looking at the picture it looks like a normal stem that is holding in a handlebar, so unless the handlebar is a non-standard diameter, why couldn’t you simply replace the handlebar like with any bike?
I thought the same thing, unless the shifters are somehow integrated with the bars with internal wiring or something. Seems crazy to lock users into a specific handlebar style and width when the rest of the bike is so customizable. I normally ride 46cm bars, so 42 would be quite an adjustment. For a small rider, 42 might be way too wide. Plus I’m pretty picky about bar shape, too ;-)
Dear DCRainMaker, is there any estimate for a release date of the Square bike ? Thanks !
Looking like first week in October now – that’s in UK, think same in Europe.
thank you Charlie :)
UK importer has 5 Squares (yes only five!) due in UK this week, one of them has my name on. If it turns up I may report back!
Where do you find that type of information ? I can’t find any anywhere in France…
Hi Geoffroy, I contacted UK importer some time ago and asked when they planned to have in stock. They confirmed my local shop could take a pre-order and deposit so I did that, there’s been a month’s delay but in theory I should have my Square this week I hope. Bonne chance, courage!
FYI early October delivery in UK put back by UK importer to last week of October… and a contact with Elite tech support says Square release will be mid-November! Maybe it will all be over by Christmas ;)
Any news about if/when the Square will be available in the US? Thanks!
hello Charlie,
after your comment I contacted as well my local bikeshop doing Elite, and I was able to order the Elite Square for 1300euros, and expecting arrival mid-december approximately.
I have to wait now :)
I was thinking of buying a new smart trainer, but I am still waiting for some tests of the Justo 2 before doing anything. I am on a Neo 2 right now, and need a second one for another home. Most likely I will go with a Neo2T considering the 3M is too expensive and Neo3 does not exist.
Thanks (y)
Ryan, I have no clue about the US release date sorry.
Hi Geoffroy, Having had a date of 20 Nov for delivery my LBS now tells me UK importers can’t offer any date before January 2025. They have had my deposit since August… What a PITA, I am seriously considering the Zwift oiffering now :( grrrr
Charlie, any follow up on your Elite Square smart frame now that it’s January 2025?
It’ll all be over by Christmas ;) Delivery to UK importers scheduled for Jan 22 (not yet confirmed!)
We live in hope…
– Early September
– 1st week October
– Last week of October
– Mid-November
– 20th November
– Mid-December
– January 2025
– January 22nd
What a joke. I’ve been waiting for it to release too but I live in Australia. The Avanti isn’t even here yet. Hopeless 🤷
In a social media comment today Fri 10th Jan, Elite wrote regarding Square “Production has started so it should be available pretty soon, a month or so in Europe, a couple of months/spring overseas!”
so it now seems the initial deliveries (in UK at least) will be for Square pre-orders placed in July 2024, at release. I only put a deposit down in August so maybe I will get lucky in February… peak indoor training period slipping by fast…
In a social media comment today Fri 17th Jan, Elite wrote regarding Square “It should be available in March in Europe, June overseas!”
They’re still constantly pushing back the date. What a circus 🤡
UK importers tell me now that their first delivery from Elite will be late February; maybe I will be lucky as I am ‘very high up the list’ of pre-orders :)
UK importer just updated me regarding “the ongoing delivery saga for the Elite Square Trainer. I’ve just checked the ETA and it has moved back slightly to the 4th March from the previous Feb 28th “
My Square has landed, picked up 19 Feb from my LBS in UK. May take me a few days to recover from the shock ;) and get set up, but hey it’s real (and heavy!) Hopefully @Ray Maker has his too and can report to us all in due course…
Hello Charlie,
I was going to update that feed as well. I pre-ordered the square and it landed last week as well. I got it last Friday and it is all set up.
I gonna post another message for a “preview” and first impression.
Hopefully someone from Elite can answer dont know where else to send them mail.
So i am an owner of drivo and will be upgrading this winter. I am interested in avanti and square combo. My dealer is getting avanti in like two weeks. Will you have like bundled options so i wait a bit. And will it be compatible to use as virtual shift from start when i get square later or i need to invest in cogs.
Hi Ray, thank you for review! When is review for Avanti / Justo 2 is coming up?
Hi, does the Justo 2 have a descent simulation like the Tacx Neo 2T?
Hi, any news about the Avanti detailed review?
If you had to choose between a Direto XR and Avanti, which one would you pick. Is one more robust? Avanti is obviously 6 or 7 years newer than the original Direto platform, but that’s not necessarily a good thing.
I’ve spent a couple of hours today trying to order this, to no avail. My local Canadian dealer contacted 3 distributors and non were getting or able to get with an ETA which is the same as who knows if or when it’ll arrive. I then called some US based dealers and both had not even heard of this but they checked with the US distributor for Elite, and didn’t see it listed as a SKU, so I’m told.
I have emailed Elite support for their confirmation but my hope to have something with all this adjustability that I can use with my Neo 2T is diminishing.
I failed to specify that I tried to order the Elite Square
Also in Canada. Was it bicyclesquilicot? I can’t get an answer from anyone either. Seems disingenuous to have it marked as in stock shipping mid-December. It’s discounted right now but I guess you’re buying an undetermined ship date preorder.
I first tried through Bike Depot in Thornhill who refunded my deposit once the distributors confirmed no incoming quantity but mentioned I could wait if I wanted to take that chance.
Bicyclesquilicot was the other dealer in Canada I called. They said that it’s not in stock now but on order without saying when they’d get them.
Quilicot recently quoted me a February date, but I’ve seen online that this might have been pushed to June.
Not really comfortable leaving a deposit until this date is firmed up.
On the plus side it now has a 5 star review! 🙄
Thanks for posting this up, i am looking to upgrade my equipment very soon and the Square seems to be ticking all the boxes as to what I’m after, so just for clarity this will drop straight onto the Justo 2 but would need to swap out the cassette for the belt drive hub, is that correct, does the hub come with the Square?
Regards
Carlos
Hello, When is planned the review of Elite Square ? Thanks for your feedback
Roughly 2-6 weeks after I receive one, or typically aligned to them starting to ship.
Right now shipping has been delayed till sometime in the Jan-Feb timeframe.
And what about Avanti and Justo 2? Those are available on the market.
Hi Ray! Can you say if you have gotten a Square yet?
Just learnt that this exists and I’m quite interested, as everyone else I’m interested in getting an opinion from someone that has had their hands on it before i pull the trigger :)
If this is reliable, the elite frame +neo 2t looks like a good option for when l eventually replace my neo bike, which is great when it works, but I’m about to get my 4th warrantied replacement.. Garmin support has been good though.
Having spent some time recently on my back up wheel-on trainer I’m reminded just how flimsy these are compared to a decent smart bike.
Many advantages to a fixed frame/ indoor bike like rigidity, ease of adjustment for multiple users, instant shifting and resistance changes.
I find I much prefer to train indoors on a less aggressive set up.. it’s simply not necessary to replicate my road bike position indoors, given it’s set up for aerodynamic advantage, an efficient climbing position, lightweight and compliant in the right ways, as the bike and I move over varied terrain and road surfaces.
It’s nice, but I wished all of these companies would start to focus more on comfort rather than their gearrings. Like for example, I would much rather see Zwift, Elite and other companies creating a bike that offers InsideRide’s E-Flex Plus type comfort than a bike with virtual shifting. Something that is better than a rockerplate, more natural and stable, and allows me to ride my indoor bike for longer than 1 hour without feeling sore, because you’re in this static position on the bike indoors.
DC, any plans for JUSTO 2 in-depth review? I haven’t seen any reviews yet.
Yup! Working on it. First up though this week is wrapping up the Decathlon D100 trainer. Just editing photos as we speak. Almost all set.
Hi,
Just received my Elite Square today that I ordered almost 50 days ago from a Norwegian retailer. (Bikeshop.no)
Unfortunately I don’t think I´ll be able to try it out until a couple of days. But I thought I could share some pictures with you all.
Cheers!
– Jim
Continued…
Fit-chart
Parts included
“Cassett” installation
Controls (from manual)
Controls (picture from the manual)
Controls 2 (picture from the manual)
Very cool! Thanks for posting. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts. Also am curious to know if it looks like you could swap the handlebar? Apparently Elite says no, but it looks possible from the pics. Enjoy the new ride!
Change bar tape yes, bars no. The shifters are wired together so you cannot alter their angle either. You can rotate bars but not change them.
As a Garmin Fenix/Edge/HR strap user, which Square set-up would you recommend?
Elite Square + Elite Avanti + Elite Rizer
RRP $4,800 total AUD
or
Elite Square + Garmin Tacx NEO 3M
RRP $5,500 total AUD
I only have a spin bike indoors and budget isn’t a concern.
Thanks
Honestly, I’d wait for reviews to come out. Essentially, it’s too early to know what the final implementaiton looks like, especially with 3rd party trainers.
That said, I’d probably first decide what kind of trainer you want. The 3M is a fantastic trainer, argueably the most accurate trainer on the market today by a large margin. But it’s also equally overkill. And you’d be paying for the forward/back movement that you’d have to lockout on Rizer. Inversely, the Avanti is also a great trainer, though, not in the same interial realm as some of the higher-end units (from Elite or otherwise).
Elite has confirmed in the past couple of days they’ll be shipping me a Square next week. It’ll be going to Mallorca, which means…well…sometimes shipping can be on island time. It’ll be paired with an Avanti I have there, and another Justo 2 they’re sending me, after my first one ran into issues.
What kind of issues did you run into with the Justo 2? I have a brand-new one, and I’d like to know if I need to pay special attention to something. Thanks in advance!
I’m having high flywheel accuracy issues. So basically, if I put it in the big ring and are on the flats and start putting in some power (even just 250-300w), I’m seeing some substantial overages (e.g. 20-30w at 300w, and 200w @ 800w). This is on firmware version 21, which is the new firmware covering UCI racing. But it’s also the current public/prod firmware.
I dropped off the unit with DHL yesterday back to Elite to look into, and they’re concurrently sending me a new unit to see if that solves it.
Elite Square first impressions in Reddit: link to reddit.com
Hi,
I agree with the impressions written in Reddit by another Square owner.
Some other initial impressions:
Hardware:
Installation of the Square was straight forward. I installed it on a Kickr Move and had no issues. (Yes, the kickr Move must be in locked position always :) ) My only comment with respect to the build quality, is that the seat post kept sliding down into the frame when riding and I really needed to tighten the seat post clamp to the point where I was afraid it was going to break it. I needed to tighten it much more that what I’m used to. Maybe I’ll try some assembly gripper paste if the problem persists.
Software:
Using the Square with a non-Elite trainer is a bit confusing. I don’t have the “it just works” impression. (All software and firmware are the latest.)
I got the virtual shifting to work in Zwift and the Square App to display the gear information, initially…
But then the gear display got messed up. Short story short, I jumped into a ERG mode workout and when finished I couldn’t get the Square App to show the gears again. I tried with Zwift opened and closed and with different sensor setup combinations in Zwift.
I also have yet to get the square buttons to control the Aria fan. The Aria is now paired to the Kickr, which is paired to the square (through the app). The Aria does not show up in the Square app.
My impression of the whole solution with a non-elite trainers is that the apps and units are playing some sort of telephone game and the necessary data is lost along the way or never sent at all between the units.
I’m going to continue with the trial and error today. But to be honest, I’m not going to spend much time on getting this particular setup to work. I’m moving the frame to its permanent location where I have an Elite trainer+. There I can try out the Square with a Justo1 trainer, an Aria Fan and a Rizer. Hopefully the experience is better on an all Elite setup. I’ll give further impression when I have tried it out. (this weekend)
Currently, the square controls do not work with Zwift. Zwift finds the Hardware, but that is where it stops. When selecting SQUARE as the device for Power/Controls/etc. Zwift notifies me that a firmware update on the SQUARE is needed for the SQUARE to work in Zwift. So the ball is in Elite’s court, I guess…
-Jim
PS. I wish Elite would start working on a One Master App to rule all their products, including the updating of their Firmware.
Not a great experience for me so far – it’s a solid bit of kit but even the label on the pulley saying ‘this side out’ was on the wrong side! Using it with a Tacx Neo 2T and trying an erg mode workout on zwift was a shambles, multiple attempts to pair and eventually managed that but then spinny resistance for a minute followed by just getting stuck in old school spiral of death with massive resistance, trainer fan going berserk. I guess there are some issues to sort out and I will be patient, but having waited since August I had hoped they would have all these software issues sorted. If anyone in UK is looking for one and they have a degree in rocket science there may be a Square available some time soon :(
Thanks for the impressions. I’m actually interested in using it with a Tacx Neo 1. I don’t usually use ERG mode (and I understand that it could be used by connecting the Neo directly to Zwift without using the Square), so I’m more interested in how it performs in managing virtual gears in simulation mode. How does it work in that case?
Hey Jose, you might want to check if Square is compatible with Tacx Neo 1. Elite compatibility page says comaptible with Tacx Neo 2 & Neo 3m so I am even wondering if my Neo 2t is actually compatible. Anyway I am trying later today the scenario you suggest…
The issue with locking the seat post has worsened.
I needed to adjust the height, and when tightening it again, a part in contact with a special nut cracked (see red arrow). Consequently, I had to replace the entire mechanism with a regular screw and nut, tightening it with a wrench. Now, the post should remain locked, but I can no longer make adjustments without using a toolbox. :) / :(
This might only be a problem for heavier riders like me. I weigh 100kg, which is below the specified user weight limit of 110kg. The seat post slides in between three curved walls (yellow arrows) welded to the frame, with some thin plastic in between (orange arrow). I believe the seat post clamp solution that comes with the square struggles to press these strong walls together enough to effectively hold the seat post in position. I think I’ve managed to lock it as I mentioned, but this is with different parts and tools.
This is my only hardware complaint; everything else is of good build quality.
Secondly, I’ve given up on connecting non-elite trainer to Zwift through the square. It works randomly. I’ve had a) Ergmode workouts where I suddenly couldn’t reach the target power numbers and b) ‘circle of death’ situations when changing the resistance and power sensors to the trainer instead of the square. The only apparent solution has then been to restart everything.
At this point, I will no longer use the square with a non-elite trainer as I think it is intended. I will only treat it as a ‘dumb’ bike frame when connecting to Zwift.
Jim your experience with non-elite trainers and zwift sounds similar to mine. I have a tech support ticket raised but like you I will be pairing zwift with the trainer directly, not via square for now. onwards and upwards lol.
managed a ride, sort of!
OK so I just tried another plain ride in Zwift… so just a ride, not a workout, not ERG
Using Tacx Neo 2T
Paired trainer directly with Zwift for power and resistance etc – see screenshot
No Square app used for first 10 minutes of ride
Could ride but not able to change gear, no idea what gear I am in, just default neo spin I guess
After 10 minutes turned on Square app and rode in ‘stand alone mode’ ie it’s only connected to trainer, not Zwift.
Able to change gears but NOT Campa style (which is my default gearing in squareapp fyi) – only two buttons behind brake lever on right made it harder, buttons on left made it easier.
Got in a 30 minute ride.
It’s quiet, apart from my swearing lol ;)
Thanks for the heads-up. Yes, I saw that the Elite documentation doesn’t explicitly state compatibility with the Tacx Neo 1, although it leaves the door open for other smart trainers besides the ones mentioned. I assume they only list the models they have tested.
The Neo 1 is quite old, but as far as I remember, its exterior design and dimensions are the same as the later Neo models from Tacx. Also, the QZ app offers virtual gear compatibility for all Neo models (I’m a user of the app, and it works perfectly).
For all these reasons, I assume the Elite Square should work with a Neo 1. However, before buying it, I’ll contact Elite to confirm.
Thanks again for sharing your experience with the Elite Square.
Based on my experience with the QZ app and its use for enabling virtual gears on devices that are not compatible with Zwift’s protocol, such as the Tacx Neo, the Elite Square app should connect to Zwift, while the smart trainer should connect to the Elite Square app. This way, the app receives gradient simulation data from Zwift and adjusts it according to the selected virtual gear before sending the corresponding value to the smart trainer. On the return path, the power measured by the smart trainer is sent to the app and then forwarded to Zwift.
This is how the QZ app works, and I understand that smart bikes like the Neo Bike or Kickr Bike function similarly. It would be interesting to know if this setup aligns with the actual experience of using the Elite Square for Zwift simulation with a non-Elite smart trainer, such as the Tacx Neo or Wahoo Kickr.
On the other hand, for Elite smart trainers, I would expect that the same result could be achieved by connecting the Square directly to the smart trainer, with Zwift recognizing the Square as a smart bike that implements the virtual shifting protocol (similar to the Kickr Core and Kickr V6). This setup would have the advantage of displaying the selected gear number in Zwift’s hub.
Regarding the use of SRAM or Campagnolo virtual gearing style: link to forum.elite-it.com
From Elite Square Frame post in reddit:
“Here are some set-up details of the Square Frame, hope they ate useful –
1. The first step is always to pair the Square Frame with your trainer (Elite or other brand) using the Square app.
2. Once you’re ready, connect to the app you’re using and start riding, both trainer and Square Frame will appear in the device pairing dashboard.
When using an Elite trainer, the Elite trainer is in control of the ecosystem. So in your training software’s device list, make sure to select the elite trainer (ie direto xr) not Square Frame.
When using a non-Elite trainer (Wahoo, Tacx, etc), the Square Frame takes control of the ecosystem. In this case, in the training software, you should select Square, not the Wahoo, Tacx, etc trainer you’re using.
And the Square app can be used for:
Pairing Square Frame with your trainer
Configuring profiles and gear settings
Displaying the current gear ratio you’re using during workouts
As for the handlebar buttons, they are a bit limited ATM waiting for implementations with 3rd party apps. They can currently be used to search for the trainer and control something like the Elite smart fan Aria if you have one which you can adjust the speed with the top buttons. Virtual Steering is being implemented soon, you have the option to use Elite’s Rizer for that ATM.
Hope that helps.”
Hey Jim, success today, managed a 45 min TrainerRoad workout on Zwift with no issues except erratic reporting of cadence. Yesterday I did a short free ride on Zwift and Square behaved well with virtual shifting working as it should. Getting there I hope.
FYI process I followed
switch on trainer (my tacx neo)
Wake up Square
open Square app to make sure Square sees trainer
Open up Zwift
Pair SQUARE as source for CONTROLLABLE – POWER – CADENCE (it took some time to find the Square on all 3)
Load workout and ride
Elite tech support said ERG mode gearing ratio is set to 2.0, so it might be 34 FRONT-17 BACK, or similar to 39 FRONT – 20 BACK… that’s sounds about right, felt OK
Onwards and upwards
Do you know if the “cassette” compatible with any type of hub? I have a SRAM XDR hub in my trainer
Hello,
Disclaimer: I have the square at home but have not installed it on a trainer yet. And what I write below may be wrong…
First: What is written in the manual is, “Square’s rear pulley is compatible with Shimano – SRAM bodies”.
Assuming the Elite square is compatible with Justo2/Avanti trainers without having to purchase a special freehub for the “Pulley/Cassette”, I looked at the attached hub-cassette compatibility chart for Elite trainers.
From what I can deduce is that “Shimano and SRAM bodies” in the manual means freehubs that is compatible with these cassettes; (GREEN LINES on chart)
SRAM NX/SX Eagle 12 Speed,
Shimano/Sram 9/10/11 Speed, and
Shimano 12 Speed Road.
To use the SRAM XD/XDR 12 Speed cassette you need another hub than what comes included with the Justo2/Avanti trainer. (see yellow Line) So if you are using a hub that is meant for the SRAM XDR, it is from the reasoning above not compatible with the Square “Pulley/CAssette”
Again, I might be wrong here. If so, I apologize. :)
– Jim
Thanks for the detailed answer.
Your investigation and conclusion looks pretty reasonable. I do not think it would be quite easy to create a cog that would fit with al the different hub bodies in the market.
If your hypothesis is correct I may need to dig into the huge amount of spare parts I have from different bicycles and find the original shimano hub from tacx neo that was included in the box. 🤦 (kind of a nightmare)
Thanks again Jim
Jim, Have you been able to use the Square yet? Are the shifting buttons working with Zwift?
Don’t know about Jim but yesterday I successfully did a free ride on Zwift and shifting worked fine. Today I have just done a 45 minTrainerRoad workout on Zwift and the Square worked fine, only issue I had was erratic reporting of cadence (workout unaffected by that). I am on a Tacx Neo 2t if that helps. I am beginning to like the Square lol
Charlie, where did you buy your Square from? I’m trying to find one in the EU that would ship to the US or, alternatively, Greece.
Bought from local bike store in UK… but I put down a deposit back in August and UK importers only had 5 in total when delivery eventually made in February! Good luck
Hi people,
I just got my Elite Square last week and it is all set up today. Delivery was later than expected, and I am not riding outdoor so I am not sure to use it more immediately.
First impression after the setup and a quick try on Zwift :
– compare to a spinning bike, the box is ‘relatively’ light (can be carried by one person) and loaded into my truck. I remember carrying a 50kg spinning bike thought the stairs to the 5th floor…
– all the elements of the bike, packaging, documentation are very well described and translater. Thanks.
– Setup on a Tacx Neo 2 is easy. It took me a few hours to unbox, remove my cassette, setup the bike, etc. and another few hours to set it exactly to my fitting.
– Bike fitting to my specific measurement was as easy as a normal bike. I changed the saddle (nice one though) with my usual saddle. Once done, I keep the data somewhere if i need to change it. I wouldn’t say that changing the setup on a regular basis is the best practice because they are all screw (note: impossible to remove the elite tool from the rear of the saddle post as the magnet is too strong, i used my own tool).
– overall quality is very good and i really like it
– contrary to the zwift bike, there isn’t anything on the handlebar to leave a phone or tablet, but at the same time it leaves space to setup my extended bars for TT position, or to buy something elsewhere.
– connecting to zwift was straightforward : i selected Square everywhere. It seems to work fine but I can’t see any information about my chosen gear in the zwift HUD. Zwift said i need to update the square bike (via another Squara upgrado app, which I did already, so I don’t know really. I will try again.
– I didn’t understand how to steer yet, but it is not the most convenient as the handlebars are fixed i need to press a button. Let’s see how it goes.
– Gear shifting seems to work properly. Setup can be modified in the Elite app (not very clear though, you need to click at the top left and then on the first line to chose you setup between 1/2/3 x 10/11/12 speeds)
– Noise : it is very low youhou ! much better than my metal chain. The major noise comes from my trainer freewheel now. I need to eliminate that as a baby sleeps on the other side of the wall. I can hear my movies and music now :)
– I saw that with an elite trainers, the bike connects to the trainer and the trainer to the compute. With non-elite trainer, the trainer connects to the bike and the bike to the computer. Is there a benefit of having an elite trainer ? not sure, perhaps you will have an opinion
– i still find the price quite high, but that’s how it is at the moment basically…
Hi everyone, I have ordered mine a few days ago since my old bike gave up on the trainer, and needs to be replaced.
I can’t understand how Elite has been so silent about the bike since it is been launched few weeks from now and no reviews at all. I really hope Ray can have his sooner than later.
I hace the first Justo and the Rozer so I will have the full Elite Ecosystem and hope that it will perfom quite nicely
For you guys who already have it, just to know the virtual shifting does work with in the Myetraining app in the level training option??
I don’t like Erg mode since it is a waste of time and I do all the intervals playing with Justo’s resistence level and depending and I just play with the cog and cadence, so can the Square replicet it with the virtual shifting??
Regards
Hi Phellan, I can confirm that virtual shifting works fine in non-ERG mode. You can configure your choice of virtual gearing for Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM or sequential shifting in the Square app. All works well. If you are used to mechanical shifting in the real world the buttons on the bike take some getting used to, but it works well.
Thank you for the heads up. I know that trainers have evolved a lot, but I fear that my frame suffers for being attached to a fixed axle.
I can’t wait to get my hands on it and for @DCR s review
Somebody said that pricewise is a bit steep however seeing Zwift’s bike price or the Rivet frame’s price I don’t find it that high considering you can get between 10-15% discount in some stores.