Update: My complete Tacx NEO 2T In-Depth Review is now available here! Hit it up for all the details after months of testing!
At Eurobike this year Tacx has announced their latest update to the Tacx Neo Series, with the new 2T trainer. For those not familiar with the Tacx lineup, the Neo series is their top of the line trainer. It’s virtually silent, has an electromagnetic flywheel that allows it to replicate road surfaces (like cobblestones), and is arguably the most powerful trainer out there.
The new NEO 2T essentially takes the Tacx NEO 2 trainer that was announced last fall and gives it more power. It does this through a combination of stronger magnets and tweaks to the magnet topology. The reasons you care about this is that it eliminates the ‘slip’ feeling that the Neo exhibited in the past when hard-sprinting at extremely low speeds. It also means faster ERG mode responsiveness. Way, way, way faster. And now native thru-axle support.
Meanwhile, on the software side, they’re close to releasing a firmware update (which isn’t ready yet) that will bring Cycling Dynamics to not just the NEO 2T, but also the existing NEO 2 trainer. That helps to close the loop a bit on Tacx’s promise last fall to ‘bring undefined new features’ to the Tacx Neo 2 down the road.
Now, I’ve been testing this trainer for a number of weeks. But part of the reason you don’t see a full in-depth review yet is that the firmware simply isn’t final yet (pre-production) – though the hardware is final. I’ll get more into the specifics down later in the post, but ultimately, I’m calling this a ‘hands-on’ look at things, with a full in-depth review to follow once some issues are worked out. In fact, even in the last 5 hours since the official announcement there’s been some tweaks to the firmware.
But again – we’re getting ahead of ourselves. Let’s talk trainer geekery first!
What’s different:
The vast majority of the changes to the Tacx NEO 2T are internal, not external. In fact, the only external change you’ll notice is a new ‘racing stripe’ inset on the back panel of the folding NEO wing. Here you can see it next to the Tacx NEO 1 and Tacx NEO 2:
But like they teach you in grade school, it’s what’s inside that matters most. And in this case what matters most is magnets. The company has made a pile of changes internally around the magnets. It’s magnet mania. Here’s what’s different inside at a geeky level:
– Stronger Magnets: This gives it the higher torque that eliminates the slip
– Thicker Wiring: This reduces the heat output and improves efficiency
– Changing Wiring Topology: This reduces vibrations but also reduces the sensitivity of manufacturing tolerances
– Skewing of Magnets: This reduces vibrations and sounds
– New Magnet Holder: This helps in manufacturing by increasing position accuracy, but also reduces vibrations
Like I said, it’s magnet mania.
What does that all mean in real-life? Well, we’ll get to that in the First Rides section. But first, let’s look at a graph, since again, geeky. This shows you the braking power of the Tacx NEO 2T versus the NEO2, against your speed. This shows why you could cause ‘slip’ at low speeds on the NEO2 at lower speeds, as it’s more than tripled in those lower scenarios.
But beyond all this magnet mania, there’s a few practical considerations. First, it’s quieter. At least in theory, frankly – I can’t tell the difference in my studio. Maybe if I move the whole setup to the podcast recording room with the soundproofing now installed on the walls I’ll be able to hear it.
The other change coming, but not yet in any firmware, is Cycling Dynamics. That’ll give us access to the typical Cycling Dynamics suite of data, though I haven’t tried it yet to see if all the metrics are carried through, or how it stacks up against Garmin Vector 3. After all, those two should match in my mind. So I’m keen to see how that looks. And for that matter, how it might stack up against Favero Assioma and their recent Cycling Dynamics update as well.
Fun testing times ahead for sure!
First NEO 2T Rides:
When I say ‘first rides’, I mean like, first, second, third, fourth, ninth, tenth, and so on. But before we get there, let’s start with some quick NEO basics – it’s the same here regardless of which model you’re on. The NEO 2T folds out just like the rest of them. Aside from the aforementioned racing strip, you’d never notice the difference between them.
Once unfolded you can either plug it in or not. Plugging it in ensures downhill drive (meaning, it’ll spin the flywheel when you go down a hill in apps like Zwift), and also makes it easier to pair with apps since you don’t have to pedal for it to wake up.
You’ll also need to install a cassette on it. Despite being the most expensive consumer smart trainer on the market, it doesn’t come with one:
Once that’s all done, toss your bike on it, and you’re good to go. The unit supports both quick-release and thru-axle bikes (natively now!), and includes adapters in-box for both as well:
Next, you’ll pair it up to your favorite app of choice. In my case, I used both TrainerRoad & Zwift as my main testing platforms. Both will see it enumerate via either ANT+ or Bluetooth Smart, depending on which type of device you’re using.
With that, you’re ready to pedal and get cookin:
The first thing past Tacx NEO users will notice is that the slip is gone. If you aren’t familiar with the slip, essentially it meant that if you were going a very slow speed (such as when climbing a really steep hill), and then threw down a sprint effort, it’d feel like the trainer ‘slipped’ for a second. It didn’t last very long, again, about a second or so. And for most people, you might never encounter it. But it was one of those unique Tacx Neo things. Either way, it’s gone now.
That’s largely due to the pile of extra magnets in there, and that also manifests itself in other ways – most notably ERG mode. For example, in TrainerRoad, the shifts in wattage on my 30×30 workouts were astoundingly quick. My usual test workout is ~150w up to ~400w, in 30-second sets back and forth. I do this on all trainer tests. It’s a great way to test responsiveness.
(Note: It was overshooting the ERG set point in Sunday’s firmware, that’s supposed to be fixed in today’s firmware.)
And indeed, the Tacx NEO 2T is incredibly responsive. In fact, one might make the argument that it’s actually too responsive, potentially too fast. Most trainers will take between 2-4 seconds to complete that 150w to 400w transaction, or a normal time for your body to adjust. But the NEO 2T delivers that in about 1-1.5 seconds. Now, I say ‘might’ make the argument, because the firmware isn’t quite final yet and there’s still some tweaks to come and test there. So I’ll hold my final judgment.
Speaking of which, let’s talk about why this isn’t a full review. After all, that was definitely the plan: Hardware was final, and software was looking final too (save the Cycling Dynamics bit, which might have been a later update anyway). Unfortunately, I just couldn’t get power values to match with trusted power meters in my arsenal. I tried a Quarq DZero, Garmin Vector 3, Favero Assioma, and 4iiii Precision Pro. And while the values on the latest firmware were close – they weren’t good enough.
I was consistently getting the Tacx NEO 2T underreporting power by about 4-6% – which is way too much, even despite the drive chain loses. I went through a few more new 2T’s, and in turn they made some tweaks to firmware and calibration machines, and the process repeated itself a few times. But ultimately, even with new tests this morning – I couldn’t get accuracy where I want it.
And more importantly – I just wasn’t on final consumer firmware anymore, which is generally my bar for an in-depth review.
Now, it’s very likely they’re gonna sort this out pretty quick. Even just in the last 5 hours since the NEO 2T’s announcement they think they may have cracked the nut on what’s going on. They had engineers spending all day, and frankly, all this past weekend on it. I even met them Saturday afternoon at the factory on my way to Eurobike so they could diagnose not just the trainer, but my bike too, to try and figure it out and if it was something unique to me.
At this point (10PM our time), they think they know what might be going on, and are working on a firmware update to address it. If they can do that, and if I can get some more rides in with various software and it checks out, then I’ll happily release my in-depth review accordingly. It doesn’t sound like they’re shipping products until they sort this out. Which again, could be tomorrow.
I don’t want this to sound negative by the way – I think it’s hugely positive that a company is willing to listen and iterate to the feedback, working quickly to sort out what’s wrong. The best companies do that, and they don’t just pretend it doesn’t exist.
Wrap-Up:
Assuming Tacx can work out the minor firmware issues – I suspect the NEO 2T will easily firmly implant itself in the usual Neo series location at the top of the trainer pyramid. The stronger magnets have resolved the virtual slip aspects, and atop that, you’ve got Cycling Dynamics coming. This will be the first trainer to support the standard (remember it became a standard a while back). Right now it does though already show power balance between left and right legs, though again, I’ll withhold judgment on that until I get the final firmware.
As far as pricing and availability, it’s essentially the same as the NEO 2, so that’s €1,299/$1,399/£1,199, with availability being pretty close to immediate – they’ve already been building and stockpiling units over the last month. Again, pending the final firmware update piece – which can be done after the fact anyway.
I’m looking forward to getting that and putting it through its paces. As many readers know, most of the time when I’m not testing something I’m using the Tacx NEO 2 as my main trainer. So getting rid of the minor slip issue will be great. Hang tight for that review soon, oh, and thanks for reading!
Found This Post Useful? Support The Site!
Hopefully you found this review/post useful. At the end of the day, I’m an athlete just like you looking for the most detail possible on a new purchase – so my review is written from the standpoint of how I used the device. The reviews generally take a lot of hours to put together, so it’s a fair bit of work (and labor of love). As you probably noticed by looking below, I also take time to answer all the questions posted in the comments – and there’s quite a bit of detail in there as well.
If you're shopping for the Tacx NEO 2T Smart or any other accessory items, please consider using the affiliate links below! As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. It doesn’t cost you anything extra, but your purchases help support this website a lot.
On Sale!I've also put together a quick list of some of my favorite or most compatible accessories for this unit:
This virtually invisible base plate gives motion to (more)
This virtually invisible base plate gives motion to your Tacx NEO. It's awesome - especially for longer workouts, albiet, also pricey.
And finally, here’s a handy list of trainer accessories that most folks getting a smart trainer for the first time might not have already:
There's no better bang for your buck in getting Zwift (or FulGaz/etc) on your big screen TV than Apple TV - it's the primary way I Zwift.
This is a super basic trainer mat, which is exactly what you'll see me use. All it does is stop sweat for getting places it shouldn't (it also helps with vibrations too).
Cassette Installation/Removal Tools
There are *many* variations of cassette removal tools, this is the best bang for your buck. Don't overthink this. You'll likely only use this tool once every 2-3 years.
Here's the thing, some people like front wheel blocks, some don't. I'm one of the ones that do. I like my front wheel to stay put and not aimlessly wiggle around. For $8, this solves that problem. Note some trainers do come with them. Also note, I use a riser block with *every* trainer.
I've got three of these $12 fans floating around the DCR Cave, and I frequently use them on rides. They work just fine. Sure, they're not as powerful as a Wahoo Headwind, but I could literally buy 20 of them for the same price.
This desk is both a knock-off of the original KICKR Desk, but yet also better than it. First, it's got wheel locks (so the darn thing stays put), and second, it has two water bottle holders (also useful for putting other things like remotes). I've been using it as my main trainer desk for a long time now and love it. Cheaper is better apparently. Note: Branding varies by country, exact same desk.
This is by far the best value in trainer desks, at only $59, but with most of the features of the higher end features. It's got multi-tier tablet slots, water bottle holders, non-stick surface, adjustable height and more. I'm loving it!
Lasko High Velocity Pro-Performance Fan (U15617)
One of the most popular trainer fans out there, rivaling the Wahoo Headwind fan in strength but at a fraction of the price. It doesn't have smartphone/ANT+/Bluetooth integration, but it does have secondary outlets. I've been using it, and a similiar European version lately with great success (exact EU variant I use is automatically linked at left).
Shimano R7000 105 Cassette (11-speed)
This is a Shimano 105 cassette (thus, slightly more budget compared to the Ultegra), in most cases, you probably won't notice the difference. Ensure that the number of speeds matches your bike (e.g. 11-speed, 10-speed, 9-speed, etc...).
Shimano R8000 Ultegra Cassette (11-speed)
This is a Ultegra cassette, you can save about $10-$15 by picking up a Shimano 105 instead. Ensure that the number of speeds matches your bike (e.g. 11-speed, 10-speed, 9-speed, etc...).
I've had this for years, and use it in places where I don't have a big screen or desk, but just an iPad or tablet on my road bike bars.
And of course – you can always sign-up to be a DCR Supporter! That gets you an ad-free DCR, access to the DCR Quarantine Corner video series packed with behind the scenes tidbits...and it also makes you awesome. And being awesome is what it’s all about!
Thanks for reading! And as always, feel free to post comments or questions in the comments section below, I’ll be happy to try and answer them as quickly as possible. And lastly, if you felt this review was useful – I always appreciate feedback in the comments below. Thanks!
I was really hoping for their “climb” version. Well, there’s still time till Eurobike.
I was thinking exactly that. I ditched my Tacx Neo to use the Wahoo Climb. A Neo and Climb comparability would be my ideal set up.
Anything here (or in other Tacx products) reflecting that Tacx is now part of Garmin? I was sort of hoping that we might see some sort of novel integration. Not even sure what that would look like–I’m not a product designer–but you’d think there might be something Garmin could leverage to make Tacx trainers stand out from the crowd. As you’ve discussed previously, we’re approaching the flat of the curve on improvements in power accuracy and noise. . .
It’s only Tuesday evening. Show hasn’t quite started yet.
Jeez I hope not.
I’m hoping Garmin keep at arms length. I wouldn’t use another Garmin product if they gave it me.
Whereas I see few if any issues with The Neo (a ton of QA issues with their cheaper trainers though) but this one seems to work.
Amazed that there’s never a mention of bike compatibility. I recently purchased Neo 2 to use for fitness with Trek FX2. Unfortunately crank arm or chain stay length is too long to trigger cadence sensor. Supposedly there’s an extension kit available but never does Tacx mention this anywhere
Generally Tacx is pretty good about exact part lists. Have you tried contacting Tacx support and asking for the exact part number?
I filed ticked with Tacx weeks ago. They are very responsive but couldn’t identify the cause. Lucked on to tacxfaqx.com and Drew Epstein suggested that it might be crank arm chain stay length. I’m just suggesting that Tacx or u point out in requirements and equipment reviews that this is an issue. Saves a user from either buying the equipment or a lot of wasted troubleshooting effort. Your reviews are always spot on
Yeah, to be honest, bike compatibility issues are super rare on the Tacx NEO 2 at this point (and most other trainers that have shifted to support longer derailleur cages).
Tacx does actually have a cutout you can print somewhere on their website for you to double-check compatibility with your frame. Though again, since the switch from NEO1 to NEO2, I haven’t seen any discussion in the comments about people running into issues. In fact, I think you’re the first person.
The challenge with frame compatibility in general is there are tens of thousands of bikes out there, and even simple component changes can make or break something.
I suspect most don’t pair a Trek FX2 with this trainer as it’s a fitness bike vs serious road bike. I’ve scoured Tacx website and have never seen the cutout you mentioned. There are more than one of us with the cadence trigger issue, mostly soft vs. Hardware but, we’re out here. If this saves one person the aggravation then it was worth mentioning. Btw, Tacx is making no commitments re extender at this point
Hi Ray.
Thanks for the article. I’m looking forward to the final report.
The cadence sensor doesn’t work on either of my bikes when fitted to the Neo 2. Scott Spark RC 29er and my Merida hardtail with 27.5 wheels, both with 175mm cranks fitted. Tacx support is aware of the issue and suggested an adapter was on the way. A bent teaspoon tucked into a crank boot works a treat while we wait!
The problem can be caused by shorter cranks or a longer chain stay. It’s very real on many bike frames out there, but I think most people don’t care much. It’s easy to add an extension or use another cadence sensor.
I’m sure the sentiment will change rapidly when the cycling dynamics you mention start to become useful.
Have fun at Eurobike!
Ross.
Hmm, this could be a problem for those that want to use the Apple TV with out the companion app or an additional sensor. Tacx supports Boost 148, which is common on mountain bikes, and those have really long chainstays. So, the use of a Trek FX2 with only a 445mm chainstay is really not that long. Touring bikes can have 460mm chainstays (Surly Long Haul Trucker), and mountain bikes can get even longer. I think the random frame I bought for a trainer bike, off craigslist is around 460mm.
I’ve not heard of this problem before, and it’s a good thing I stumbled across it, when considering a Neo 2T.
Where on the trainer is the capacitive cadence sensor located?
It’s a little bit annoying that I didn’t know about it before purchasing my Neo2. The fix is simple enough in my case and works perfectly. See attached image.
The cadence sensor is in front of the LEDs that your left foot passes. Behind my teaspoon!
This is officially the most hilarious thing I’ve seen today.
I went with a chopstick with aluminum foil to class it up. Still no word from Tacx on a fix or the adaptor they promised
Is there any mention of FTMS support? The latest XERT app on iOS only works with it.
Or have Tacx just silently dropped the issue?
It’s coming this fall. Part of the challenge is that FTMS doesn’t support the rider weight, which is used on the NEO & NEO bike series.
It looks like ordering thru Garmin is delayed 5-8 weeks.
Is that a purposeful choice because of some other retailer agreements?
I get a small Garmin discount, so looking for when I may be able to apply it.
Garmin always does that to support their retailers first.
(Fwiw, while you don’t get a discount using the DCR/CT link, you do at least get VIP points back, which is a crapton of points – $130 worth to be exact). :)
If you have any insights, I’m curious why Garmin does that with some products, and not others.
For example the Fenix 6 seems to be fully available on the Garmin site from day one.
Hi Ray,
How do the electronics of the Tacx Bike compare to the 2T? Does it have the slip issue? It would be a shame to finally get a Tacx Bike and find out that it was a generation behind in capability.
No slip issue on the bike in my testing.
Any chance this will support Wahoo Climb?
It could, but Wahoo has backtracked on their previous public promise to support 3rd party companies who wanted to add CLIMB compatibility.
I also was wondering this. They’ve formally backtracked? Pshhh.
In that case, it’s nice to see Garmin not match the pettiness, and for example prevent Wahoo from integrating its radar standard.
Ray, just curious whether the source for this information was publicly released information or just your privileged back-and-forth with Wahoo? And, is this the final word, or is there still hope of opening up the compatibility? Lastly, there seems to be sufficient interest in pairing a Climb with other trainers, so any professional influence you have with them would be welcome! Thank you.
Conversations with both sides about it.
Yet, both Elite and Tacx have designed their latest trainers to be physically capable, should Wahoo change back their mind on it.
I’ve made my point a few times to them (Wahoo).
So does this potentially mean, if one is so inclined, they can purchase the climb and just manually adjust the slope on the climb remote even though there’s no native control/support from Elite & Tacx line of trainers (since they’re physically capable of supporting climb)?
Correct. That’s pretty much always been that way for the most part though.
Oh ok. Didn’t know that.
I thought the rear axle connections had to be updated if you didn’t want instantaneous carbon explosions from Wahoo’s “even some of our own models are NOT compatible.” statements.
I could have sworn that on Neo2 the bike is fixed. I just checked and I can move up and down (with the thru-axle adaptor). But are you certain about that Ray?
As always, use at your own risk.
But you can pretty easily look at it and see if there’s any resistance or not, and if the axle adapter moves with the bike, or if it’s grinding against it. In the case of Wahoo’s past trainers, some of them weren’t even compatibility issues (such as the original SNAP), just marketing reasons as they once admitted.
That’s exactly my thought; the axle adaptor. Going from classic QR adaptor to say thru-axle one will notice that the bits are tight fixed to the tacx. No parts can move like they can on the Kickr18 (which I eventually swapped to a Tacx due to issues). I would not dare to use a climb module on the Neo 2…
I agree with you Thomas.
In my case, I use MTB’s on the Neo 2. Even with the suspension locked out you get some movement up and down.
Over a short period of time the drop outs started creaking loudly. Upon inspection it’s easy to see some (minimal)wear on the bike frame.
A tiny bit of grease stopped the noise for now. I’ll probably contact support for some washers?
Tacx really need to come up with something if we’re going to have the bike moving up and down to simulate climbing.
I saw GPLama reporting the same power reading issues, I want to upgrade from my Neo 1, think I will wait until the firmware is sorted and the power readings are good.
Me too. :)
So while you sort of covered the question about frame compatibility, after reading an overview on another site, I am unckear on the issue of thru-axles. So if you have a disc brake frame with 12×142 thru-axle, does that mean the bike can be attached to the Neo 2T with the bikes thru-axle or is Tacx still insisting on users insert adapters into the frames thru-axle holes which some have reported has caused issues with damaging the threaded side?
I have the same question. I have the Neo2, and not a huge fan of the thru-axle solution (although Tacx support is AWESOME with doing whatever it takes to make your bike work – I just received a custom cone adapter for my Neo2 because there was wobble on my new 2020 Specialized Roubaix – the cone adapter was too long so they sent me one 3-4mm shorter). I’d love to see a pic or get a definitive answer on this one. If you can indeed use a standard 12×142 thru-axle, that would be great news. No need to mess with additional adapters, and I don’t like the piece that screws in to the drive side on the current adapter.
With the bikes thru-axle, like most other trainers now days.
Thanks for this Ray – the Neo Bike is something I’m very, very interested in seeing. I’m never buying another trainer that I have to remove a wheel for…I just can’t be bothered (and my Specialized pain-in-the-ass weird chain stay Diverge makes it a hassle anyway).
Is it just me or is there a really obvious way to tell the NEO 2T and NEO 2 (and NEO 1) apart:
The screws on the case on the NEO 2T seem to be black, silver on the other two models.
NEO1 is all black. NEO 2 has the blue highlights in the base. NEO 2T has the gloss black wide/narrow stripes on the upper rear portion of the base, just under the rear hinge.
Would the Cycling Dynamics data come though to GC/Strava when riding on Zwift or do you need to record directly onto a head unit? I ride indoors just on Zwift and just happy to have the ride sync through to Garmin/Strava from the app. Cheers.
Zwift doesn’t record Cycling Dynamics (or even Left/Right split on power meters) at this point.
Surprised they do not have a larger alpha and beta test group. No offense Ray but you shouldnt be this involved in their testing power output. This should already be known this close to ship date.
I love my origin Neo but may sell and buy this once they work out the bugs.
I thought about that too . And not just Tacx, many other companies do this too – it seems like they never really test new models, but send them to reviewers and start finetuning from there. Or is this actually the the new ‘de facto’ testing model in this industry?
Thanks for the post. Any improvement to the difference in inertia between ERG and non-ERG modes that is created by the virtual flywheel? The Neo 1 had less in ERG (to me noticeably and making pedaling harder) but it sounds as if the new hardware might improve this?
Does this mean the Neo 2 will be discounted in price?
I suspect at some point, like last fall, we’ll probably see them clearance out some older units.
Thanks, I’ve been following the “don’t buy a trainer in the summer commandment” written in DCR stone, and saving money for that matter. But now I am torn which Neo 2 to go with… Thanks for all the great content!
Any chance they’re going to have xd-r drive bodies available in the US? I’ve searched around and haven’t found anywhere to buy them. Garmin interestingly doesn’t even have it listed on their site.
Try asking your local bike shop to order it in? I needed a different (obscure) part from tacx that I couldn’t find anywhere online, but just asking my local bike shop to order it in was easy.
You can order it directly from the Tacx.com website. I did, and switching to the new xdr free hub to support sram AXS 12 speed was a piece of cake. I’m in the US in North Carolina. They shipped to me, and it didn’t take too long.
Hi, can you tell me how you’ve managed to put the cassette on the XDR body? The flywheel spins if i try to tighten te cassette…
Any chance we’ll ever see the Tacx Magnum?
It’s already shipping and available. But I don’t plan to review it. Not sure how big the market is for $10K units here.
Yes but not in the USA.
Too difficult to provide the white glove service?
No, concerns around US folks falling off and suing because they can’t ride their bike.
A uniquely American problem. ;)
Surely, you must be joking Mr Maker.
Presented as a joke…but the reason is actually the real reason last I checked/asked.
Wow! I know it is beyond many can justify the expenditure, but I would have thought the US market to have been one of their targets…
Perhaps the whole Garmin acquisition may change it.
On a more related note, I’m contemplating whether I should buy the 2T, or if I should just keep the dumb wheel-on trainer + Favero Assioma combo. Certainly, the most economical solution is to keep things as they are, but we all know how it goes.
Even now, during north hemisphere warm season, I’m limited to only two outdoors rides per week, and it definitely won’t get better in the winter. I wonder if controlled resistance would make enough difference on my training to justify the cost. No matter what, I’ll wait for the CT fall sale, I know that :)
Typical Garmin business model. Rush the product to market. Expect the public to beta test it. Release numerous firmware fixes. Get it right by the 3rd version.
Which part of the public beta tested this?
By and large people are pretty happy with the Tacx 1 & 2 units out there.
Also, pretty hard to blame Garmin on this one, they haven’t owned Tacx for very long, their influence likely not that great so far.
XDR hub support?
You can get and XDR hub from tacx that you then put on your unit. link to tacx.com
hope the firmware Update of Neo 2 will come soon, one year waiting for Cycling Dynamics is very weird, as i remind, this was one of the main features for Neo 2 during their marketing presentations?
…. The big 2019/2020 trainer buyer’s guide on the horizon? The days are getting shorter again. ;-)
I’d think the 2T will be accompanied by an updated Flux. And Wahoo will release new Kickr (Pro’s) … not to speak of Elite and the others.
Thanks for the review! Will the 2T model be compatible with bikes having R.A.T-axles?
Not certain on R.A.T. support, but if you need (or want) to swap for a more standard through axle, you can find a kit here:
link to robertaxleproject.com
I changed out the stock R.A.T. system for these on my Cervelo R5. The kit worked flawlessly and is of a very high quality.
I’m hoping that’s the case. It’s the main reason I’m upgrading my 2 to 2T. I 3D printed an adapter to use with the Tacx axle but it’s a pain to switch all those parts out every time I want to switch riding outdoors or on the trainer.
FYI: I asked from the Taxc support if the new Neo 2T model will be compatible with bikes having R.A.T. axle such as 2019 Cervelo S3 Di2 disc.
Answer: You should be able to use your own axle, as long as it is 12mm or less.
So, should be fine :)
Daniel–what specific kit did you purchase at robertaxleproject.com? I have a 2018 Cervelo R5 and would like to do the same. Thanks!
Has there been any comment on a Neo 2 upgrade kit? I.E. Can the 2T flywheel be used on the 2 to address some (maybe not all) of the slip issue? I’d imagine there’s a lot of disgruntled Neo 2 owners as a result of this release.
Hi Ray, Is the firmware updating going to reduce the slip effect of Neo 2.
I too would like to know if Tacx will release a 2T flywheel kit or similar for those with Neo 2.
For the sprinters, the slip effect is hugely frustrating.
Ray, can you get an answer from a Tacx on this please? Really would be great to know.
I suspect not, as the 2T has different magnets and different placement of the magnets. GPLama filmed at the TACX factory, watch his video and you can see in more detail.
Sorry this was supposed to be a reply to Kari’s comment.
Totally agreed. They promised me a fix for it because you get the slip but then no resistance at all and you have to stop your session losing the work already done. Its not what was described when purchased and so they have a legal obligation to fix it.
The slip issue has been around since the beginning of time with the Neo. As noted, there isn’t a retrofit kit here, it’s a totally different beast.
When I’m working on my neuromuscular power I do standing starts kicking up to 1450w and the slip effect is shocking.
Ray,
Thanks for the review. One question, do you think that. Neo 2 will receive the firmware update to be open to third parties cycle-computers (as wahoo, polar, sigma) in order to see the data of the advanced cycling dynamics? At the current date they updated only for Garmin devices … secondly, do you know if they want to add new firmware for Bluetooth in order to permit that two devices that use BLE could be connected (for example record data in Polar and Tacx software?
Many thanks
Cycling Dynamics is actually an open standard these days. It’s up to other companies to adopt it. Favero has already, on the broadcast side.
I don’t know of any plans to add secondary Bluetooth sensor connectivity, though, Wahoo is implementing such today via firmware update…
What TaxcX NEO trainers are compatible wit the Sram AXS line up.? I got a NEO 1 an I am not sure if a Force Axn would fit. The website said it is not compatible with Red AXS. But I am not sure if it’s also the not compatible with Force AXS
Where did you see that Red AXS is not compatible? You would need a XDR driver body, but the fact that they make that available implies AXS compatibility. I can’t imagine why Red vs Force would be different — they both have approx the same RD cage length and crank setup…
It was stated at their old support website. TACX is now part of Garmin and I could not find a compatibilty list at the new Garmin site.
I would buy a DD trainer if only they came with some sort of construction/quick-release to swap different cassettes quickly! The girl is using 10 speed campa and I use 11 speed shimano. We’re using the same trainer due too space issues and are now forced to a wheel-on trainer :(
I am still rocking( haha) the Tacx Neo 1, and so far, I have seen very little incentive to upgrade between their models. I guess that is a good news/bad news situation.
Now, please, please, please, give us a great trainer bike product TACX!
Do the Wahoo Kickr/Kickr Core also have these slipping issues at low speed? Meaning this is another reason to choose a Tacx Neo 2T over a Wahoo Kickr (Core)?
i have a Kickr that is a few years old and do not have any slippage issues. I tried a Neo last year but returned it after trying a few climbs.
I wonder if the Neo smart bike will also have the new 2T internals or if its still based on the Neo 2
“Which part of the public beta tested this?
By and large people are pretty happy with the Tacx 1 & 2 units out there.”
I can only speak for myself and I have had this slipping issue since the first day. I lodged 3 complaints and was told in June a fix would come in September. So i fully expect a fix or a full refund.
Will this really fix the virtual tire slip issue, or will it just slightly move the point at which it will occur? (I mean according to the specs, the motor doesn’t seem to be that much stronger?)
It fixes it (both on paper, and in my testing). The chart/graph shows it’s not just barely moving it. You’d have to put out massive power to override it.
I certainly can’t come anywhere even close to achieving that power to make it slip.
Hi Ray,
is it possible to aks how support is handled in the future and of course today, seems Tacx homepage isn’t up to date and the Garmin sites aren’t up to date too?
Tacx Training Software will get updates too, or no changes nor new things?
cheers
fl33tStA
THX for the great Live Ticker!
Ok sounds great. Heard that the release date is Jan 2020 though, atleast here in Sweden. So currently considering if I should sent the neo 2 that I ordered and if it’s worth the wait.
Would love to get one of these, but I ride quick release bikes while my wife rides a thru axle bike. Switching between the two seems easier on the Kickr than on the Tacx, plus some people seem to find it challenging to fit their disc brakes next to the body of the NEO. Any thoughts on this?
Tacx have just agreed to replace my faulty Flux2 with a Neo2 under warranty, I guess this release is why they are now happily shifting the older units as warranty replacements. I’ll see if they’ll send me a 2T instead, but I doubt it…
I have a warrenty case with my 2. Neo2. I asked whether to get the new one – me willingly paying extra for it – but they said no… :-(
My replacement arrived and I was very surprised to get a 2T, when they had told me I could only upgrade to a 2. Don’t know if I just got a lucky mistake from the warehouse or it was intentional.
Fingers crossed for you.
Hi Ray,
I have a thru-axle bike (Canyon Ultimate) and am hesitant between the Neo 2 (at 1099€ with Mantel in the EU) or the 2T (higher price point but direct thru-axle compatibility). What would you choose?
Thanks,
Alex
Here’s the question… is the new Smart Bike using these 2T internals or the previous 2 internals?
I believe in one of the comments Ray mentioned that the 2T was “borrowing” from Neo Bike.
I got a Neo 2, and tried my first Level mode power test on it (Sufferfest Full Frontal) and had huge problems with “slip.” I had to quit my test. I’ve had zero problems over a about a month of Erg mode workouts.
Is there something weird about Level mode on this trainer? The slip occurred over a wide range of power/torque/cadence. From 100W to 400W 50-100RPM.
Wait for Tacx Neo 2T
or
buy Wahoo Kickr Core + Kickr Climb (now with cadence support and BT)
My first smart trainer.
I would appreciate the help.
P.S.
No need for cobblestone feel. :)
I started with a 1st gen Neo, and then moved to a KICKR + Climb this past December. For me, the ability to ride the hilly routes on Zwift with my position moving to a true climbing position was the most important feature to make my training more realistic. Pretending to ride hills with the bile in a static position is not the same. Ask any Dutch rider who trains on pancake flat roads. I’ve had that experience years ago.
I’ve used both and prefer the addition of the Climb.
Thank you for the advice.
I am also attracted to the Climb as I live in the Alps and would like to have the riding position feel over the winter.
I also own pair of Assioma powermeter pedals and would like the power output similarity with the Kickr Core.
So I guess the only issue would be the need for calibration and stuff but I don’t mind.
Not really sure if the cadence transmission works ok now with the SW update or not.
How does the Climb help you get better at climbing hills?
That seems like a ridiculous claim.
Any of the erg trainers on the market can do that by pushing you over your threshold for extended periods. Even my old fluid trainer can do this.
I’d say it’s harder to stay comfortable on the very static Kickr vs the Neo that flexes.
On one hand I agree, there isn’t in theory a difference from a wattage/incline standpoint.As you noted, any trainer can do that.
But there is a difference from a position perspective. You’re pushed back on the saddle, and that’s going to engage different muscles. Hugely? Unlikely (Wahoo says there’s some study around it, but it seems somewhat limited).
I think if one flips the equation around though and asks instead: If training for a long climb would it be better to mimic a climb, or better to mimic flat ground – I think everyone would realistically say ‘mimic a climb’. Even from a mental standpoint there’s undoubtedly something there.
As for flex – one interesting tidbit is that both solutions flex, but in different ways. In the case of the NEO you get more flex under your seat (but really, it’s pretty small). However, in the case of the KICKR/CLIMB you actually get some subtle rotational flex because the CLIMB unit rotates slightly left/right if you press on it (just as the NEO does in the back). I’m not sure either are huge deals, but worthwhile noting.
Not all are equally impacted going uphill. So if training on flat grounds, then some will feel the difference on a climb a lot while others (like myself) are not very much affected.
Fair play Ray. I don’t own a Climb unit so have nothing to compare to.
I have had the Kickr18 with a climb module. But swapped it to a Neo2. I think the Neo2 is quite a bit comfier to ride compared to Kickr. The Kickr is a harsh ride. The climb module did not change that a lot for me. Just saying…
Oh waw, now I’m lost again.
Haha.
If you live in the Alps, buy a climb module. It’s fun nonetheless ;-)
FWIW: My Neo2T has currently shipped (ordered at Tacx website). So they’re shippping right now…
woo hoo! I guess i should just order then
…doesn’t mean the accuracy issues that both myself and Lama are waiting on are fixed.
any information about upcoming firmware update?
We got a note today saying they’re getting close on one, with a bunch of detail around what they’ve found. They expect to have that update ready on Monday.
Great news! I’m getting mine on Monday. I’ll report back my findings (compared to a Quarq).
Bielieve It , when I see It
Can you share any updates about firmware ?
I wont buy 2T before they fixed accurance issues
I got my N2T yester (on Monday 17th.) and currently I’m running firmware 0.0.27. I believe my old N2 was running the same firmware version. So I think it’s not the new firmware? @Ray can you comment on that?
I have had two rides on my N2T. Both with a lot of testing. My initial input on accuracy is – it varies. I have riden ERG-mode with 30s @ 700W with less than 1% difference (Quarq vs Neo). But then later that day I did a SIM-mode with 5% too little from Neo.
So if I should give a very initial and short summary, I’d say accuracy is between 0-5% less than Quarq. It’s not bad, but definitely needs to improve.
I hope the next firmware fixes that. Any news on that Ray?
Hi Guys-
I don’t have any updates yet on firmware, it hasn’t been released yet. I think they’re close, as we’ve been chatting about other topics, but nothing yet on this one.
I wouldn’t surprise me if I see an update later today.
Cheers.
Not a ridiculous claim at all. When I was an amateur racing in Italy during late 80’s and 90’s I lived in Bologna, where part of the city is pancake flat, extending to the Po Valley, that is miles of pancake flat roads. While to the south we had amazing hills. I’ve had real life training experiences with top riders on how to train. No one trains on flat roads to ride up a hill. Big gear, low cadence, is still riding a flat road. Riding your bike in a horizontal position stresses your muscles in slightly different way than when your on an incline. Shifting your weight to back of the saddle changes how you pedal up hill. I’ve been riding trainers for almost 30 years now. Yes, you can build strength in a static position, but riding on undulating roads with long climbs is not static. Now that I have an opportunity to properly simulate a proper riding position, I’ll take it.
Hi JCG. If it works for you, that’s great. I’ll take note and take that on board.
Personally, I’ve found lower cadence drills in lower gears give the best results for hill training, but I can see the merit in changing the angle of attack also. On the trainers in erg mode at least.
I’ll happily throw some books under the front wheel for the mornings intervals to see if it makes a difference.
Admittedly, I can ride hilly terrain right outside my door all year round, so I’m probably already doing the work outdoors.
Sorry if my comment came across as a personal attack. Written words can come across that way when trying to keep things short.
Hi, Ray.
I have read the reviews of Kickr Core and NE2t extensively.
I am wondering witch one to get? I have a Bushido that is a good trainer but I want to upragde to a direct drive, both because of that they are more silent and that I don´t want to change to trainer tire. I tried to leave the regular tire on now, but last workout the tire overheated I thnink. It got all sticky.
Now I read the Neo 2t and I get even more confused. If I Choose between Neo2 and 2t, should I pot for the newer one? But then I don´t think I have the budget anymore, cause I found the Neo2 like 280 Euro cheaper than the 2t.
So i´m back I think to choose between NEO2 and Core (maybe with a Climb) ?
Is the Climb any more than just gimmick? If I don’t get the climb total cost is cheaper, but it could be nice to simulate uphill.?
I feel that the while the Neo doesn’t seem to need calibration, that’s nice. I don’t have power meters and such stuff so it would be nice to have accuracy. Not sure how often you need to calibrate the Core and if its tedious? Read somewhere her I think that in the future climb will be compatible with Neo?
What should one choose ?
Some things to note:
1) The climb doesn’t work in ERG mode. So, if you only do workouts and don’t free-ride Zwift, the Climb is not worth the investment.
2) Kickr 2018 has some noise issues. Ray has a video on it, but the fixes from the factory are not always performed correctly and you get continuing issues.
3) Kickr should be calibrated every week or 2 weeks of usage.
After a couple of days thinking i want the Neo 2.
However is the Neo 2 T worth the extra money,?
I should think that the Neo2 is still pretty good for about 270 dollars less
As of 17th September with Zwift with firmware 0.0.27 and Zwift 1.0.39812 the road feel doesn’t work, as Zwift doesn’t recognise the Neo2T as being a Neo if you connect using ANT+. Apparently works fine over Bluetooth. Tacx are aware, hopefully it should be a simple fix but I think it needs to come from the Zwift side.
A quick headsup on my 3. run on the N2T. So far – I’m quite happy with it. Accuracy is almost there; I’m seeing an offset vary from 3-10W. That is not much and one could say it is ok. But thing is, I see 5W error on a 1000W sprint! But then again, I see 10W off on a 2min interval @ 350W…?! So IT IS GOOD – but still needs a bit on finetuning, if you ask me…
Check out my data here: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
BTW – Z.E.R.O tireslip on my 10s 1kW intervals. The two first one was starting at 50 rpm. The next two about 75 rpm. This is really great.
I’m still in dialog with TACX about some kind of spacer on the NDS. Issues is that my Tarmac disc caliber touches the N2T housing. For now I have solved it with an extra spacer between the frame and the N2T adaptor. But that seems like a cheap solution. I’m awaiting Tacx’ input…
Oh gotta mention the noise level. It is true. The N2T IS really quiet. So I hope the next firmware will fix the last wattage finetuning and then I think we have the perfect trainer. I really think the N2T has that potential…
And a quick follow up. I did a 30 min cool down ride afterwards. Here the offset is bit more clear. This is what I don’t get. On one file, I get rather good wattage accuracy. Then on the other, i bit more off. Please look into this TACX. Once that’s fixed – things are looking really good…
DCR’s analyzer: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Yup, that’s what the firmware update should be fixing. Your set looks exactly like mine when things go awry.
Working link to DCR analyzer: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Are the features that low thru-axle support on the 2T transferable to a Neo 2 by purchasing different adapters?
I’m not keen on the Neo 2 solution of having a straight metal rod resting on the female threads of the thru-axle drop out on my bike as the point of support for my weight.
Is there now a solution that screws into the dropout properly that can be used on a Neo 2?
Is
No there not compatible. The thread on N2T is bigger, thus adaptors from N2 don’t fit.
Does anyone know of compatibility issues with Oversized PulleyWheels (such as CeramicSpeed) and short cranks (155) with the NEo 2T???
The only thing I know about is the cadence sensor. Read the other comments.
Hi Karla. I’m running SRAM eagle on the Neo2.
The pulley wheels are pretty large and the cage is quite long.
I can use the full 12 speed 10-50 range of the cassette. There is a slight rub of the cage on the trainer when I’m in the 50 tooth.
All quite on the firmware update?
I checked yesterday – no news :-( Still on 0.0.27 which has the minor issues.
@Dc Rainmaker – any news why we still wait for update? 3 weeks ago you mentioned that It would happen in a moment
When I checked on Friday, they were still working on it and polishing it a bit.
Just ordered a neo 2t … I think this is actually a good thing. It’s better if they take their time and do it right instead of pushing buggy updates!
You will not regret the N2T. I think it’s quite a bit better than N2. It’s really quiet and so strong. I just hope that next firmware will fix the minor wattage issues, which Ray mentioned earlier and Tacx confirmed looking at. But even though these minor issues, I would at any time recommend the N2T over previous Neo’s. Just my 2 cent…
I experience a strange behaviour from my 2T:
When i switch the trainer on (ie. plug it in) the red light glows as it should. When i first start pedalling i see the cadence sensor is reporting the cadence correctly but after aprox. 5 seconds the red light starts flashing and the cadence is not reported any more. The red light then keeps flashing indefinitely. Everything else seems to work normally although i once had an “overheating” error displayed…
Does anyone experience similar issues?!
Nope…. Mine just works out of the box (except the known minor wattage issues mentioned earlier in the thread)
3rd test today…my NEO 2T is overheating after 7 minutes Zwift with avg power of 161w :P … i think this one has to go back!
The deep discounts on Neo2 starting to look attractive.
I just received my 2t today and I had the same issue. It works for about 5 minutes and then overheats and resistance drops out (no resistance, 0 watts in Zwift). The internal cooling fan doesn’t seem to be working. It works when first plugged in but doesn’t stay on or come on when the trainer heats up. If I unplug it and plug it back in, the fan starts up on a high speed and it take about 10 minutes to cool down. I called Garmin and they said I have to return it for a new one. What stinks is I’m in the US and I received the unit directly from Tacx in Holland. They don’t have them in the US yet, I’ve learned, and it will take 2-3 weeks to get the replacement.
They seem to be having some manufacturing issues. I wanted to remove the freehub body to return the trainer but it was impossible due to the endcap being extremely overtightened. They ensured me that they will send a new trainer as soon as they receive the old one. I’d hope that they will send you a new one as soon as your old one is on it’s way back…let’s see how this plays out. Looks like tacx has some serious issues in QC anyway…
This is weird. I have done several 280-300W 30 min sessions workout any issue. The fans are working though they’re very quiet. Maybe I’m just lucky with mine…
I think this is an issue only affecting a (hopefully small) subset of units probably due to manufacturing tolerances/issues. If you could do 30 min of ~300w you should be fine. My 2T overheated in 3 testrides after several minutes of very light (sub 200w) pedaling. I did hear the fan so this is not the problem, at least with mine…
I hope it’s a small number. I enjoyed the trainer when it was working. My overheated in the same way, after about 5 minutes at around 200w. For mine, I believe the fan was the issue. It would run at a high speed when first plugged in, but then I wouldn’t hear it run at the speed again as I rode and eventually it would overheat.
@Johannes – Did you receive your replacement trainer yet? Curious to hear if you had similar problems with the new trainer?
Not yet, although they received the unit yesterday they are taking their time :/ … you’ll probably receive yours before i do after all :D … i’ll report back here when i get mine and have it put through it’s paces!
Ray, any updates on the firmware and the overheating issue? Should I buy a discounted Neo2?
I upgraded to the latest firmware and it didn’t make a difference. When I called support, they made it sound like this wasn’t something that could be fixed with a firmware update.
What version firmware?
It was .27 I believe. I updated the firmware last night, so whatever was the most current at that point. I have the trainer packed up and ready to ship back, so unfortunately I can’t bring up the firmware version on the Tacx app. But I’m pretty sure it was 27 (or .27, whatever their versioning number convention is).
The newest firmware version is 0.0.27
The overheating issue can not be fixed with a firmware update…
That’s the current version.
You’re lucky, it seems you live in a country where they can quickly ship it. In the US, Garmin is telling me it will take 2-3 weeks for a replacement because they are unable to order a replacement directly from Tacx due to the two companies not being fully integrated yet. So, they’re waiting for their shipment of 2T’s. I wonder how widespread the overheating problem is.
Fingers crossed that it will not take so long for you until you get the replacement. Pretty annoying!
Yeah, hope you’re back up and running soon too! Keep us posted.
I’m thankful for this discussion. I was on the fence between a 2T and a Wahoo Kickr 2018 / Climb. (The Wahoo delivery is scheduled for Tuesday.)
Good luck with your purchase! It sounds like that trainer is very comparable. I’ll keep folks up to date on where my situation goes.
Kickr 2018 vs Neo 2T…you have t read the comments in the thread have you?
Quick update – Tacx contacted Garmin to speed things up and they arranged to have the replacement shipped this week, should arrive tomorrow. So, happy that they were able to switch things out quickly. They actually shipped the new trainer out before actually receiving the old one, but they were able to see that I shipped it. I’ll update folks on whether I have any issues with the replacement.
One more update – I received the replacement Neo 2T today and set it up right away. It arrived much faster than Garmin first said thanks to some help from Tacx directly I believe (sent it back on Sat and got it today (Thurs)). I’m happy to report that I’ve had no issues with the replacement. It’s practically silent, super smooth, and a big upgrade from my previous trainer. 6 years ago or so, I bought the Cycleops Powerbeam Pro, which was one of the first smart trainers out I believe when smart trainers started becoming popular. But it was a wheel on trainer. When I got it, I loved it, coming at that time, from a basic fluid trainer. The trainer was very reliable, and worked well with Rouvy (and whatever Cycleops called it before that) and Zwift. Over the years, though, I grew tired of the tire on design (slips, limited possible resistance, only decent road-like feel), and that trainer wasn’t incredibly quick with resistance changes. The 2T is a huge upgrade on all fronts. Resistance changes are relatively instantaneous. The road-like feel is much better. Resistance, particularly on hills is much greater and there seems to be more range on the low end too. With the old trainer, the resistance never really let up that much going down a virtual hill. With the 2t, it’s much more noticable.
So, overall, I’m very pleased with the trainer and hope I get as many years out of it as my old one. If anything changes I’ll come back and provide an update.
Hi Matt,
good to hear that TACX was able to replace your broken 2T so quickly. I am still waiting on the replacement 2 weeks after i sent it back with no change to the status visible in their system. I am living in Europe, so sending a new trainer would take 2 days…
Although i believe the 2T has the potential to be a great trainer i am really pissed about the way TACX is handling their QC and support. I hope they can get their act together soon!
If I had to make a purchase today, Neo 2T at $1400 or Wahoo Kickr/Climb for $1600?
Keep this in mind when answering the previous question posted. I also MTB (29er on Eagle platform) quite a bit through summer alternating between mountain and roads and with Zwift trying out MTB with possible turning for funzies. I live in NoDak so a trainer is very useful for me, but would like the ability to do both if more MTB trails come to fruition.
I do all sorts of biking, road, MTB, and gravel.
Which trainer you use depends heavily on what you’re doing on it. I use Zwift as well, but only because it makes it easier to access training plans with automatic imports, and it makes it less monotonous. Though, with Garmin integration, it’s probably an area where I can save $15/month.
That said, I only do 2 things on the trainer. ERG workouts, or Zwift racing. I never futz around, and I don’t think the MTB adder to Zwift will be the least bit interesting to me. Because of those, the climb is out of the question, for me, since. it doesn’t do anything in ERG mode and would be an expensive fork dropout holder. Also, the way accelerometers work in the phone and the connectivity to Zwift being a tad slow, I’m not sure their MTB feature is going to pan out, other than being annoying with missed turns and subtle adjustments being missed or completely off. In short, it’s going to be nothing like steering on a real bike, and be just as annoying as trying to play some games on a phone.
That makes it a base Kickr 2018 or the Neo 2T. Having had problems with a Kickr 2018, I would not use it. I even bought the Kickr *after* the supposed fix, and have had multiple returns with exchanged units continuing to fail, well into 2019 as it is. That leaves the Neo, by default. The 2T, though, seems to be having problems, so I’m in a holding pattern, running my older Kickr at the moment to see how the 2T plays out.
link to dcrainmaker.com
The comments show repeated issues by multiple people, even after the supposed fix. That’s pretty annoying. But, Wahoo support is awesome. That said, they have some problems, their latest fitness app seems to have stopped working properly on my Kickr 1, and I don’t know if I’m getting any power matching at all when I use Zwift on AppleTV, so have to go back to using the Zwift Companion. Their support can’t seem to respond to this issue. Tacx, I have no idea about. Garmin support, though, is slow and sucks. Their software has historically been not that great, at least on their GPS devices, and slow to update. Garmin having bought Tacx, brings a bit of a dark cloud over things.
Which poison is better? I don’t know. The 2018 Kickr issue has really soured it for me having dealt with it first hand, and would like to see a 2020 Kickr that’s not so poorly designed in a key area. The Neo, people seem to like alot, but they have some design issues, and (for me) Garmin, which is an albatross. Even then, I’m leaning towards the 2T at the moment, but will wait some more.
Also, when I had the Kickr, I didn’t find the power accuracy to be that great. It was off, and it varied considerably more than my power meters.
In all honesty, I’m considering going back to a dumb trainer and a power meter, as well. But, the 2T is in the lead at the moment.
Just sharing my thought process, and hope to bring some insights, having been burned by the Kickr 2018.
It is good information for sure… Doesn’t really help me, but thanks for adding your thoughts. It sounds more like whatever route I go, expect issues and I don’t like that. Thanks!
Sure, no problem.
I also wanted to point out how you will use the trainer and what matters to you. For me, the Climb add-on isn’t worth it, as it would never really be used in an interactive manner. I might set it to max height, to work on climbing, but it’ll sit that way for the duration. That can also be accomplished by putting blocks under the front wheel.
One point that may have been lost in all that, is that ERG mode and the Kickr Climb don’t play together. The incline of the course doesn’t affect the climb, when doing an ERG mode workout. It only works in Sim mode, or in other words, free riding on Zwift. Workouts just won’t have your front end going up and down with the Zwift course.
That, by itself, may save you some money on the Kickr side and may alter your price point for decision making.
“In all honesty, I’m considering going back to a dumb trainer and a power meter, as well.”
nunya, since you’ve touched on this, allow me a question.
I have a power meter and a dumb trainer. I use Zwift to break the monotony but it’s difficult to match power profiles of outside and inside rides. (ie, for a given slope/grade one always seems to output more power outside compared to inside on the dumb trainer)
Do you find the smart trainer matches the outside ride power profile a bit better?
“In all honesty, I’m considering going back to a dumb trainer and a power meter, as well.”
nunya, since you’ve touched on this, allow me a question.
I have a power meter and a dumb trainer. I use Zwift to break the monotony but it’s difficult to match power profiles of outside and inside rides. (ie, for a given slope/grade one always seems to output more power outside compared to inside on the dumb trainer)
Do you find the smart trainer matches the outside ride power profile a bit better?
@Ihsan
“Do you find the smart trainer matches the outside ride power profile a bit better?”
No, but I also don’t have that problem until it gets steep. Flat stuff, I’m closely matched. The steep stuff, it’s different muscles due to a different angle and saddle position and pedal stroke, compared to being flat.
That said, the resistance on the pedal stroke is very different than a real bike ride. It feels different, but the numbers do match for me. I can last longer outside, because it’s not as hard.
The SMART trainers I have used, Kickr 1 and Kickr 2018, I have had to use a power meter, as I found the Kickr 1 to be highly inaccurate and variant. The Kickr 2018 didn’t quite match as well. Between the replacement units on the 2018, even after spindowns and the like, it was off.
Based on reviewers and the like, it seems the expectation is to warmup, do a spindown and then continue on. That’s not really how I workout. I just get on and go. Wahoo recommends every few weeks or so, I can’t remember. But, I find variations. The Wahoo 1 is especially bad, hence the power meter, and that’s what I’ll continue to use. It would be nice to be more accurate, and one reason why the Neo catches my eye.
nunya,
Thanks a lot! I agree 100% on the warmup-spin-calibrate thing.
That’s why I’m considering the Neo series as well.
@nunya
I’m with you on the accuracy of the original Kickr. I bought mine new in 2014. It always seems to be reading much higher than my power meter but improves as my Kickr warms up. However, over a one hour ERG mode workout, the average power is off by as much as 20%. For example, using the Wahoo Fitness app, if I set my Kickr to 240 watts and ride for an hour, my Stages power meter paired to my Garmin head unit will say that I only rode at 200 watts for an hour. Is this the type of difference that you are seeing? I would like to get a second power meter to be certain that it is not my power meter that is the problem.
Like you, I am looking at buying a second trainer but waiting until the issues are sorted out on the Neo 2T. I am also considering the Drivo II but concerned about its accuracy, especially with short intervals in ERG mode.
On the positive side for the Kickr is that Wahoo support has been good. I have not been able to convince them that the Kickr is inaccurate but they have been good at resolving any other issues that I have had during the past five years and sending me parts, as needed. The other factor in the Kickr’s favor is the new Inside Ride E-Flex motion system that is soon to be released. It only works with the Kickr and could make riding indoors for long periods more comfortable.
Like you, I only ride in ERG mode. I have mostly been using TrainerRoad.
@Phil
“It always seems to be reading much higher than my power meter but improves as my Kickr warms up. However, over a one hour ERG mode workout, the average power is off by as much as 20%. For example, using the Wahoo Fitness app, if I set my Kickr to 240 watts and ride for an hour, my Stages power meter paired to my Garmin head unit will say that I only rode at 200 watts for an hour. Is this the type of difference that you are seeing? I would like to get a second power meter to be certain that it is not my power meter that is the problem.”
I bought mine early in the first release, as it seemed to be a game changer compared to my Kurt Kinetic.
This is exactly the type of problem I see with it, and why I have had to put a power meter on it. Though it’s not always higher, it’s lower. There’s a heavy temperature variance. I’ve done spindown multiple times, and the spindown is highly inconsistent. I can spindown once and have power higher. Spindown again, and power is lower. I do it after a workout, so it’s definitely warm. The next morning, the power is not even close to what the power meter reads. Then they converge about 20 minutes in. About 40 minutes in, they diverge. Without the consistency of the power meter, the workouts would sometimes feel easy and sometimes feel hard. I would think it’s me, and look through fitness data, and can’t figure out why I would feel so weak or so strong. Then I put a power meter on, and found the nonsense. I used that for a couple of more years, and finally got the 2018 model, and boy that was a big mistake.
The 2018 model was better in terms of power consistency, but within the different trainers I had, the variances were different. Sometimes high, sometimes low. It did not diverge as much as the Kickr 1.
For the Drivo II, I have looked at it, but I have heard that their support is not good, and slow to respond, and that there are ERG response issues which have not been resolved. I don’t know for sure, the user base seems to be much smaller than the Wahoo Kickr or the Neo. The Wahoo experience has definitely made me gun shy about buying a new trainer, and seriously considering going back to a Kurt Kinetic with a power meter, which can survive an atomic bomb. I may just wait for the bearings to go out on my Kickr 1, I already had to replace the belt tension bearing, due to pitting in the steel from the environment in which it sits (the sweat and humidity, I presume).
The Kickr 1 with a power meter kinda works, except they screwed up something with their latest Fitness App release. The toggles no longer work, and the cadence from ANT+ is all screwed up. Power from ANT+ no longer works as well. So, using it with Zwift on an AppleTV is going back to the old Zwift Companion method, which is annoying.
Since you have a Kickr 1, does the Fitness App work for you now? It got screwed up with the latest update. This is on iOS. I don’t know if Android is any better.
I agree, Wahoo support has been good, but this fiasco of the 2018 model has me taking them off my list.
The main problem is that they are using the user base to screen their problems. They claimed a fix, and then they continue to cycle trainers through the use base in a rotating fashion, retrofitting them as they come back and sending them back out. Who knows how large an inventory they have to cycle through. Also, that means that if you buy a new trainer, you’re likely to get a refurbished one. That’s really not cool. I also got my trainer after seeing the DCR Wahoo CEO video. I got it in mid 2019. The SN was after the range indicated, and I still had to go through multiple trainers until I got a refund and would’ve claimed a lemon law buyback if this were a car.
Till this day, people are posting problems about the 2018 Kickr, and that’s really mind numbing. If this were a car, they would’ve been hit with a class action lawsuit already.
@nunya
I have not updated the Wahoo Fitness app on my iPhone and tried it with the Kickr yet. I will let you know the results when I do. I have been riding outside but that is starting to come to an end unfortunately with the colder and darker days.
The only reason the Drivo II came onto my radar is because my local bike shop recommended it. What they like about the support from Elite is that instead of having to send the entire trainer back if there is an issue, Elite actually sends the parts to my local bike shop to fix the trainer. The turnaround is much quicker. That said, I wish there were zero issues in the first place. Also, reading various forums online, there are still issues in ERG mode. The Drivo II does not respond quickly to changes in power, especially with short intervals. DC Rainmaker and GPLama did not seem to have issues with their units but so many people are talking about their issues online.
Per your bad experience with the Kickr 2018, my local bike shop has completely given up on Wahoo. They told me that it has been a nightmare for them with so many people returning their Kickr 2018 trainers to the store and then the store having to ship them back to Wahoo for repair or replacement. They spent a lot of money on shipping.
So, with all that said, I guess I am down to the Neo 2T whenever they release the new firmware to fix the current issues. It makes me nervous though. It seems next to impossible to find a good reliable trainer even if I am willing to buy a top-end one. They all seem to have issues.
@nunya
It is getting pretty chilly here so I finally put my bike on my Kickr (2014) yesterday. It looks like the latest Wahoo Fitness app is 5.24.0. I am running 5.14.2 and hesitant to update to the latest version based on what you said. I am running it on my iPhone 6.
Other details that you did not ask for:
Kickr firmware: 1.5.68 (latest version for Kickr 2014)
Wahoo Fitness Utility app: 3.1.2
Spindown result after riding for one hour using Wahoo Fitness Utility app:
Spindown time: 27.141
Temperature: 42.36
Offset: 32769
Hi all,
Still undecided between the neo 2t and neo 2. Does anybody know if the sound difference between the 2t and 2 is huge, or not really worth the price difference? Set aside any other difference of course, I am really curious about the noice levels.
Thanks!
I have the N2T (and had N2). Both are great trainers. The N2T definitely is quieter. It’s not worlds, but you will notice it. Also I have no vibrations or anything on my N2T. That too helps keeping the noise down. After a while you slowly start to realize how much noise your chain actually makes.
Thanks Thomas!
Hi Ray did you get a response of
I’m still in dialog with TACX about some kind of spacer on the NDS. Issues is that my Tarmac disc caliber touches the N2T housing. For now I have solved it with an extra spacer between the frame and the N2T adaptor. But that seems like a cheap solution. I’m awaiting Tacx’ input…
I got the Neo 1 and a Canyon Aeroad Disc. The Discbrake touch the Body of the Neo. After searching the Web i found a Tacx Neoowners FB Group that discuss the problem. Some one uses a 5mm spacer, but some one got stability probs with the thru axle and the spacer. I will purchase the neo2t where the prob still exists. Tacx offers a special Assembly kit with spacers.
Thx
I had the same problem with my tarmac disc. I solved it by cutting a piece of the NDS 148/12 adaptor so that it now is 143,5. Or the other way around +1,5 mm of the NDS 142/12. I have been in dialog with Tacx all the way and emailed them pictures as well. My solution world really well. I had a lathe to trim the adaptor.
Hi folks,
today the parts from Tacx arrives, and with the 5mm Spacer it works fine.
Look at this vid for details, I found it on the trainerroad forum:
link to youtube.com
The Discmount dont touch the body of the neo and the bike axle fis in.
Greets
Are you using the 12mm thru axle? I do…
Yes the thru axle from the original part kit dir 12*142 plus the 5mm spacer from the add part kit dir neo
Ok the video just shows different :-)
I have the same problem with my Venge with SRAM AXS. Unfortunately the extra spacer didn’t solve the problem of the brake hose to touch the casing of the Neo. Maybe an extra 3mm wil solve the problem but than my axle might be a bit on the short side…
I’ve contacted Tacx again and explained this issue. Hopefully they come up with an solution.
Being in the same boat as a few of you in this conversation–choosing my next smart trainer–I’m wondering if anyone has a compelling reason not to consider the Saris H3 over the NEO 2T and the KICKR? I’m also primarily using my trainer for ERG workouts, so I want a good quality ride and reliable power numbers. To quote Ray’s review from 8/29, “if you’re living in a TrainerRoad world (or any other ERG mode app), there’s no better trainer than this for nailing ERG workouts best I see at this point.”
I’ve never ridden a Tacx–assuming they get the issues with the Neo 2T worked out, is it really worth the premium over the H3?
I’m with you on the H3,
I can’t see how it isn’t coming up trumps against these other few leading trainers.
I’m trying to choose a trainer to replace my aging Kurt trainer. Like many, I’m torn between Wahoo Kicker / Climb – which seems really attractive, and Tacx, which seems a solid, but expensive option. Both of those models seem to have quality control issues that make me a bit nervous. However, after reading this review of the H3, I think that it has become an option that I need to consider pretty thoroughly. I would love to hear more thoughts on how it stacks-up against the “big two” – especially for an older guy who simply wants to stay in shape over the winter. I ride mostly Sufferfest and FulGaz in my pain cave.
Didn’t Wahoo just buy Sufferfest? I’m pretty sure they did… On the other hand, Tacx’s Desktop Software is the best if you want to ride videos. The quality is the reference.
Wahoo did just buy Sufferfest – which makes me wonder what is in store for integration between the two. I am quite concerned about Wahoo quality issues. On the other hand, Kicker & Climb seems like a nice combination to fight off boredom (though I have never tried the combination) as compared to a rear-only trainer.
With discounts currently available on last-year’s models, I wonder if I am better off buying a Tacx Neo 2 at a discount versus the H3 or a Wahoo system. Given the newness of H3, it is hard to know what issues might arise in the future. I think that I can probably live with the slipping issue of the Tacx. Still, the Wahoo Kicker/Climb combination is intriguing (though more expensive than a discounted Neo 2.
Remember – like one mentioned earlier – climb module doesn’t work in ERG-mode. It will stay level. Though you can still tilt your bike manually with the climb module by pressing a button. Just saying…
Greetings from Colombia, I’m Jimmy Rueda sorry if this post is not the one for this problem I have, I have done the firmware update of my Neo 2 obviously following the steps suggested in link to tacxfaqx.com -updates / I have already completed 100%, after that the Neo 2 has been in the “limbo” and is no longer detected correctly in the “Tacx Utility” app I have tried to reverse the process and it is not possible following these indications link to support.tacx.com this I also did link to tacxfaqx.com -0-15-rollback /. It doesn’t work for me in any application (Zwift, Bkool, etc.)
Please help, I think I lost my Tacx. Thank you
Contact Tacx support
Dv rainmaker – do you work for Garmin / Tacx ?
Nope
Maybe you should. :) :)
They might be stuck with the firmware issues. ;)
It sounds like they’re getting closer, but not yet ready to release.
Seems to be par for the course for all trainer companies this year. Pick your poison it seems.
It took them month to be closer… I hope they finally find the way . Sorry but we hear same thing more than month….. they are close
Better to wait a month or two for a release that doesn’t brick the trainer. I seem to remember that happened to Wahoo when they released the cadence update recently.
That’s not a dig at Wahoo in particular. It’s a common theme with cycling trainers and power meters.
How far out was the trainer when you tested it Ray? A few watts here or there?
In the post above I included some accuracy snippets as well as my concerns.
Sorry Ray. I went back and found the info.
4-6% under. Without drivetrain loss I’d imagine.
I only brought it up because I was reading some comments where people sounded like they’d poo poo the Neo 2t over that alone.
My experience with with a Kickr Core was worse than that. It’s now an oversized doorstop that I’d struggle to get half of the purchase price back on.
I figure I’ll keep it as a spare for that sort of money.
No problems with the Neo 2 so far. It just works.
Hi
I broke the bank and invested in the 2T despite Ray reco to stick to the old one. But now I realise it returns 20W less than my assioma or 4iiii.
Anybody facing this issue? As there is no calibration needed or possible, no idea how to align the 2.
I have a brand new chain and cassette so loss through the drive train should not be that big
I contacted the client service and waiting for their answer.
Thanks in advance for your help
I’ve recorded a few rides using 2T on Zwift and my 4iiiiiii single sided power meter recording to my Garmin independently. I’ll put the files into Ray’s comparison tool over the weekend and see how they compare.
I have 0-10W on my N2T when comparing to my Quarq. It’s a wellknown thing and Tacx are working on it. DCR stated that a bit time ago. It should be fixed in the long awaiting next firmware….
I am curious about the internal changes made to the Neo 2T – especially related to airflow through the unit. Long-term durability / reliability is important to me. Will the changes to the 2T make this unit worth the extra $200 to purchase the 2T now, or would a smarter decision be to save $200 and purchase a Neo 2 at a discounted price?
Hi, so I’m getting ready to buy a Tacx Neo 2T I think, I’m slightly concerned about the firmware/power discrepancy issues as described above, but I figure these should be resolved soon…
One of my main reasons for preferring the Neo 2T is the pedalling analysis due to an old injury and seeing how this is affecting me and if I can improve things.
Or should I be buying the Kickr?
I recently purchased the 2T, but haven’t had a chance to play with the pedal analysis functionality yet. I’ve only used it with Zwift. Regarding your concern about power accuracy, I haven’t had any issues with it. The trainer this replaced was a Cycleops Powerbeam Pro, which I think was supposed to be accurate within +/- 5%. So, it’s not as accurate as the 2T, but from my experience with the 2T, the power numbers seem within the same range as my old trainer. I don’t notice any differences with the amount of effort I’m putting out and the power readings. Sounds like Tacx plans to update the firmware to improve the power accuracy, but where it’s at now seems pretty good. It’s not as though it’s reading 25% over or under. Good luck with whichever direction you go.
Hello again,
Ray, if I have a pair of Assiomas and with the “power-match” feature on Trainerroad app I shouldn’t have any problems in terms of hitting the right goal wattage on intervals right? I’m planning to buy 2T and subscribe to TR and until recently wasn’t aware about this feature so I was searching for the “perfect wattage” trainer.
Just wanted to make sure if I got it right. I am missing something?
Tnx
Yes. It will work with Zwift too.
It won’t respond as fast, but powermatch works fine.
Tnx for the feedback nunya.
Would you be able to quantify the lag? Like a second or more? Let’s say on the 30s intervals, how would it look like?
Also seeing a huge W discrepancy between the 2T and my dual Vector 3.
Here’s a short 5 min test I did yesterday comparing the power measurement between the two.
The grill on the 2T was also so hot yesterday that I couldn’t hold my hand on top of it. Also having major problems with cadence, where it sometimes shows for a couple of minutes, then drops off completely or does not show up at all. Still seeing speed measurements, however. Might just contact my local distributor tomorrow and see what they say.
Is the underreporting of power by 4-6% still expected with firmware 0.0.27? I definitely still see that compared to my Vector 3 pedals.
Also, left/right power with that firmware version gives me very different results (57%-43%) from the Vector 3 (50%-50%, I’m not always at 50/50 but the worst I’ve ever seen with the Vector 3 was 53/47).
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
One thing I do like about the Neo, though, is that it seems to report power and cadence changes much quicker to Zwift when paired via the companion app. I’d say the Neo is almost a second faster than the Vector 3 pedals there.
I just had tacx customer service. All the above issues are known and will be fixed within a matter of weeks.
By firmware?
Yes
Happy days. Thanks.
so awesome. can’t wait for black friday to pick up a 2T.
Given the upcoming firmware update, it seems as though the issues facing the 2T will be resolved. However, that still leaves me in the same position of trying to decide whether I should buy the Neo 2 or 2T. In the long term the $200 discounted prices of the Neo 2 isn’t such a huge deal if the 2T is a better machine.
At the same time, I’m not the strongest guy in the world, so will the slipping issue that the Neo 2 had (which is gone in the 2T) really appear that often? Are the changes made to the 2T worth spending a few extra dollars now or should I save the money and go for the Neo 2?
2T is quieter, is stronger, has native thru axle support – and is the latest and greatest ;-) It is really good and I’d say it’s worth the few extra bugs due to the above. But if that doesn’t matter to you, buy the N2 instead. It is still a very good trainer.
Heck, buy the neo 1. Remember when neo 2 came out the big selling point was “future features via firmware upgrade”. So far nothing has come out for that, but they have come out with new hardware, so how much effort are they going to be putting into older hardware now?
Flllowing up from my earlier post now I have updated the firmware neo is giving me 5W less and sometimes even less than assioma at 280W so I guess the problem was solved and it is to be expected due to different point of measurements. Assioma being always higher as closer to the power input.
I am happy with it and keep using it (a lot?)
The new Firmware 0.0.31 ist here
What’s news ?
Here’s a first comparison on wattage with fw 0.0.31. Don’t mind data from 1:30 till finish – I stopped and fiddled with the FDderal. Data is correct, but it got offset a bit. But the data up till 1:30 – check it out – it’s spot on! Really really good wattage on this first ride!
link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Don’t know why there’s so many drop outs on the Tacx data via ANT+. Quarq data was recorded via BT with TDA.
Thank you, Thomas, for sharing this data. My theory is that this is related to the left-right cadence sensor of the NEO 2T. I had similar (much worse actually) dropouts in cadence with 0.0.27, but only in cadence, probably because of my MTB setup. I reached out to Tacx support, they said that they will provide me with special metal plates.
The problem of power underestimated is it corrected with the latest firmware?
Yes – see my previous post where I compare.
Funny how there seems to be different answers from Tacx. I was told to contact my local retailer for an exchange of the 2T, for the exact same reasons.
Maybe, Cato, that’s because I can eliminate those dropouts completely by using a DIY crank arm extension I built.
Tofel, Ok. Did you mount the crank arm extension only on the left crank? I tried it myself yesterday after having received the response from Tacx support re contacting local retailer, but it made no difference.
Yes, Cato, left only:
Thanks, Tofel. I can obviously rest assured that it is definitely something wrong with the internals on my 2T and it will have to go back. Sucks to send it back when everything else works as it should.
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for the updates along the way and uploading your power data files.
Out of curiosity is your primary training on TR or Zwift?
Have you ridden the Kickr or Hammer, I would be interested to hear how you think the 2T feels in comparison?
I primarily ride TR.
Thanks
P.S DCRainmaker can we expect you to be doing a updated ride once your happy with where the Firmware is?
I’m just looking forward to seeing a few percent boost to my FTP once I update the firmware ;)
The firmware isn’t quite out yet to fix the issue. But, Tacx contacted me today with a firmware that should. Hoping to ride it in the next day or two and report back.
But yeah, definitely a full review coming.
Hi Gary,
I use a custom program. I then ride my sessions in either Zwift or TDA – whatever suits my session best that day.
I don’t know the Hammer. I had the Kickr18 (with all the issues) but that’s a year ago. So I don’t think it’s fair to compare today.
Hi Thomas,
If it is possible to disregard the issues you had with your Kickr…
The comparison I was after is the ride feel and how well it holds intervals in ERG mode.
Regards
I actually think that with 0.0.31 it over-reports power now compared to Garmin Vector 3 pedals. Most noticeable at low wattages.
Left/right balance looks better as with 0.0.27 but still different from the Garmin pedals. That’s probably to be expected, though, the Neo has to make some assumptions about power distribution to the pedals. E.g. with one-legged pedaling and slightly pulling in the upstroke, it gives quite some watts to the empty pedal while Garmin really knows it was empty.
I have seen a tiny bit of over reporting in the low wattage too. But it’s no more than 3-4w and it’s not every time. As soon as you push a bit harder, I find it really good. In summary, I’d say it’s within +/- 1-2% and that is all good all variables taken into consideration
Hi Thomas,
I’m seeing a difference of up to 10%: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
This was with different gears in ERG mode. Up to 00:32 I was on the small ring. After switching to the big ring, the difference gets noticeable larger. Around 00:48 I switched to the largest gear (52/11): For the low wattage interval the difference is around 10%, it looks a bit better on the following high intensity interval.
The rest of the ride was in different gears. The trend seems to be: the larger the gear, the larger the difference at low intensity.
Well, I got my Neo 2T on Tuesday… and it crapped out on Wednesday :(
In the middle of a Zwift ride, the resistance shot up to the point where I can barely turn the crank in my easiest gear and all the status LEDs turned off. Now it appears to be stuck that way no matter what I do, and is effectively a paperweight. Off to Garmin support I guess. It was a fun 30 minutes while it worked lol.
Well that really sucks.
Hope this is not going to be trend but not a good start. The Neo 2T & Saris H3 are on my short list for a new trainer. Ruled out the Kickr due to all the ongoing problems that have been posted.
Keep us informed on how Garmin/Tacx handle this issue if you can.
Sorry to hear that Chris. I hope you can get it sorted out quickly. My Neo T2 is arriving today. I’m not usually an ‘early adopter’ so this is a punt for me. I’ve been on a Kickr 2017 which has given me no trouble at all. But…I’m tired of calibrating it and I want the features that the Neo T2 offers that are absent on my iteration of the Kickr – added ride feel, acceleration down hill, cycling dynamics, cadence ‘baked in’.
I hope the problems are firmware related, although I do wonder whether any units (from any manufacturer) are as durable as the early ones were – such has been the surge in demand in the last couple of years. I had one of the first Kickrs and it was bombproof.
Ray – when using smart trainers and from your experience, are there any differences in terms of noise, performance and/or shifting quality between using a Shimano 105, ultegra or Dura Ace cassette and chain?
As you know with the Neo you need to purchase a cassette so wondered if a 105 cassette is perfectly fine?
In general I see slightly more noise from a 105, whereas once I’m on Ultegra/DuraAce it’s negligible. Most of the noise seems to be tied to the quality of the shifting/alignment.
But we’re talking super-small amounts of difference here, and I’m not sure if I were to scientifically test it with say a dozen cassettes of either type that I’d find the evidence supports my gut feeling.
any update to their pedaling stroke application?
I went against everything you said and ordered it. I’ve noticed that my sram wifli derailleur hits the flywheel on the easiest cog. Attempting to follow the terrible instructions it says place the two washers between the freehub and the unit. But the inner diameter seems too small for the black sleeve in the spindle. Any ideas?
Also the nut on the end of the QR skewer is bent. I’m not impressed for a premium product!
The washers go behind the black thingie. The order is: Neo – washers – black thingie – freehub/cassette.
What do you mean when you say that “the nut is bent”?
Thank-you very much! That’s done the job! I tried before but it’s caked in grease it wouldn’t come out but I see it slides over the spindle. I’ve got all my gears back!
@Tofel – I think it must be by design. After my failed attempt to add the spacers (fixed now thanks to Jürgen) as I was tightening the QR arm I noticed it wasn’t parallel to the chainstays but it looks like it’s got a bit of play in it. I thought it was cross threaded!
I recently got the Neo 2T. I had an issue with it overheating and got the unit replaced quickly by Tacx. The new unit works well, but I’ve had an odd experience a couple times where the trainer continues spinning after I get off the bike and walk away. It spins as it would if I were going down a hill in Zwift (freewheeling). In the first instance, I walked away assuming that the trainer was slowly spinning down and would stop in a bit. But, I learned that my son went into the basement near the trainer the following morning and it was still spinning and he unplugged it. Not realizing this happened (my son didn’t tell me at the time), I used the trainer again and it happened again a few days later. I walked away one day after using the trainer and came back the next day and the trainer was still spinning. I got on the bike and used the trainer and it worked fine. After that I unplugged the trainer to prevent it from happening again between sessions.
Has anyone else experienced this? Any thoughts on what might cause it or how to resolve it? I’m on the most recent firmware release (.31 I think it is).
I’m more and more convinced that these trainer companies are hiring second rate software engineers or don’t have any in-house and contract out work, including QA.
Certainly not normal. My Neo 2 did the same thing but would quickly stop spinning after.
Do you exit Zwift after stopping, not while you are riding along, right?
I have had a few times where my 2T keept rolling for about 2-3 min. Then it stopped. But not tor a whole night.
Ok i was going to buy it this week, after reading all these posts i cancel my order ;/
Will look at Wahoo Core or buy a lot of warm cycling clothes. Both look better invcestment then Neo 2t ;/
It supposed to be a hi-end trainer, at least the price is high.
ehhhh
@matt – I may have the same issue (also Neo 2T, 0.0.31 firmware). I have noticed the trainer keeps spinning after closing the Zwift app. I always disconnect the power supply after using it, so I don’t know how long it would continue to spin.
Yesterday I also noticed that when I stop pedaling on downhills in Zwift the trainer still reports some power (between 6 and 14 watts, with cadence 0), and the reported amount of power seems to be related to the downhill speed in Zwift / the spinning speed of the trainer. Only when I fully stop on the flat the power is 0 again. Do you have this issue too?
I also checked the numbers in the Tacx Utility app after quitting Zwift with the trainer still spinning, and the Tacx app also reported some power without input from me. To me both issues seems related to the trainer and not to Zwift. When I disconnect the power supply, and then reconnect it, the spinning stops. I will also report these issues to Tacx.
Came to balance the thread with a positive comment here. I bought the 2T and been using it for the last two weeks (300km in so far), I’m a beginner and this is my first smart trainer but I could not be happier.
There was a brief challenge with installation: I got a 10 speed Shimano 105 casette and it wasn’t clear if both the casette’s own spacer plus the tacx provided spacer should be installed. After some googling decided to put on both – seems fine.
Updated to firmware 0.0.31.
Software is great, it’s a nice plug and play experience (OSX, IOS) everything just works out of the box.
I had no overheating problems in the red range – my peak is currently around 750W, 190 FTP.
Mainly used Zwift for the trainings so far. In general it’s a very quiet and realistic ride experience and I love my new trainer.
Question: What tool/device should I use to get left/right balance information?
I believe you can use the Garmin’s pedalling dynamics on their current Edge units but I’ve not tried or attempted it.
Also, I’ve cooked my Neo 2 doing hitting 1300+ w and is now with Tacx for repair/replacement so not all good news.
Read through review and all comments, it seems that after near 2 months, the power accuracy issue still remain unresolved?
I came from kickr 2016, a soild unit, no much complains other than the regular calibration (Honestly, I probably only calibrate once a couple of months), and that’s the key reason I want to move to NEO. I am current on the fence between neo 2 and 2T, since the major reason for me to switch to a NEO is accuracy, I certainly won’t go this router without it.
I am not sure why Tacx still failed to release a fix after so long (while it sounds like a easy fix which can be done for a day or two), and is it becuase the root cause is actually something to do with the new stronger magnets and improved torque? If so, is there a real fix in the future, or only a “tricky fix\patch” possible because it is more a deep design fault.
Hi Ray,
You mentioned that you got a new firmware from Tacx suppose to fix this issue back to Oct. 9, how did that come out? Really look forward to get your full review on 2t, need to decide if I should go Tacx router or go back to get a wahoo kickr core.
And one more question, did you experience different power reading gap to other power meter in high speed and low speed? It seems a couple of folks reported this not only on 2t but also neo 1&2 as well, did you experience this issue?
My latest tests, including this morning, the firmware (which I don’t think is out yet) are pretty good.
Both in 30×30 tests (which are done at low speeds per TrainerRoad recommendations) and Zwift (a variety of speeds) seem solid accuracy-wise.
TrainerRoad 30×30’s: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
Zwift: link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com
It’s still a bit aggressive in the 30×30’s (meaning, it’s too powerful), but the 1-second overshoot at the beginning of each set is far better than before.
Hi Ray
You can see the Neo 2T is overshooting by about 20w in the 30 x 30 tests, which is around 5%, significantly above Tacx’s 1-2% claim, no?
Am I right in my assessment that the Kickr doesn’t have this problem? I’ve noticed those on Kickrs produce more linear power when in erg mode than those on the Neo. Have you noticed this too?
That looks absolutely OK to me
It overshoots the set point by about 20w, but not the power meter accuracy, if that makes sense. And that overshoot is for about 1-second. What’s interesting is you can see how sensitive the Quarq is, as it actually sees my reactive force (power) to that super powerful ERG shift as a higher value. I suspect the Quarq is correct, but at merely 1-second recording rates it’s more of a chance of luck that it ends up that way. I don’t see any point where the actual power numbers between the NEO 2T differ more than a couple watts.
For KICKR, most people have left ERG mode smoothing ‘on’, which basically fakes the numbers. Same problem on the KICKR bike. It simply tells you what you want to hear, versus actually telling you the measurement. I always turn it off.
At the moment I’d say the KICKR handles that first 1-second better, but beyond that it’s a wash.
The test you have performed 23. of. October is this with a newer firmware version than 0.0.31.?
Ahh, sorry, yeah, .31 – I didn’t realize that was pushed out. Good deal.
The other minor difference is they swapped the unit (to a unit from earlier October), since they changed some aspect of the calibration procedure and didn’t have the baseline data for the unit from back in August.
i just set up my new Neo2T trainer. did a short ride. the blue light turned off but i hear this humming noise 10 minutes after i got off the trainer. is this normal ? i am on the latest firmware.
I have had my Neo 2T for about two weeks now. I placed a pre-order through Clever Training/DCR membership and it shipped out right when they said it would. The 2T replaced a Neo 2 that I resold locally, reason for replacing the 1 year old trainer was the native through axle support and stronger drive mechanism preventing the Neo virtual tire slip. In two weeks time I’ve put about 400 miles on it and the 2T has performed flawlessly for me. I have to be honest I’m not super wrapped up in the over/under wattage issues reported. Before long I will compare it to a separate power source but for now the machine does exactly what I need it to do. The firmware update was simple and I have had no cadence issues and no overheating issues. Unlike an earlier post, I cannot achieve 1300 watts, but I can push 850-900 for a sprint effort and there’s tons of headroom left in the resistance unit for me. Some of the Neo features I enjoy are the road feel and the side to side flex of the unit. The road feel definitely makes me pay attention and wake up a little when it kicks in, and for me it is fun. The flex was a big selling point, and even though it is only a few degrees side to side it makes for a much more comfortable trainer session. Lastly, I have regular need to use the trainer without power so the Tacx Neo was/is the only choice for me there. I have complete faith in Tacx even with the Garmin acquisition and don’t see them ceding territory in the indoor trainer market any time soon.
I absolutely agree with you Jason. I also bought the 2T due to native thru-axle support. I had a bit of fiddling with the disc caliber touching the 2T housing. But I got it sovled and since that, my 2T has been flawless and that is for more than 1100 km of indoor training.
I have done several wattage comparisons with my Quarq Dzero (which is “validated” against other powermeters) and I’m happy to report that with firmware 0.0.31 my N2T is always within +/- 2% and typically spot on! My 2T just works, everytime – I love it.
I love the side-flex too.
I’m happy to hear these reports. With the bad experiences being posted, I was getting concerned.
Thanks for the comments, Jason and Thomas!
I’ve been planning to get my first trainer for quite a while. Feature-wise, I’ve felt that the Neo 2T is the trainer I should get, but I’ve been concerned with all the comments about the power accuracy and the other issues others have encountered. I have been hoping that Ray or GPLama would post updates from testing the latest firmware updates to ease my mind before I make such a large purchase. Both of your comments help ease my mind, and I’ll probably make the purchase in the next few days – especially if I see others posting that the New 2T is worth paying the difference over the discounted Neo 2.
There’s still a few issues with soldering pearls inside the free wheel. This is what causes this rattling/metal grinding noise.
There’s also a few over heating issues as well.
But if you’re lucky and yours is without issue, then you should be all good. Then the N2T is truly great.
I know Tacx are aware of the issues. So assumeably they’re working on fixes. Maybe DCR knows more about that?
Sounds also like these 2 issues could be related as soldering debris could cause the overheating … Anyway i think it’s really annoying that it takes tacx this long to fix this issues and that they do not communicate it more openly!
I am waiting for the replacement now for 3 weeks and i am starting to get really annoyed as i need a trainer for my winter training…If they don’t get their act together soon they will loose a lot of customers, including me!
Agree – my faulty Neo 2 has been with Tacx for 2.5 weeks and I still don’t have an answer or an update as to when I’ll get a sorted trainer…
Wahoo’s customer service on the other hand is far, far superior to Tacx.
About virtual tire slip, I am not fully understand. Let’s say if I start with 40-50 cadence and apply 4-500w force and keep 5 mins, it will only slip once at beginning or it will keep slip?
If only slip once, I feel it is not a big deal? no?
If keep slip, it seems that answer from Tacx is right, quoted below:
“The explanation here is a simple physics one apparently, and is merely to do with resistances and force applied. The example I was given was that you would get the same slip if you try to push a full cup across a table – initially, nothing happens, and then as you increase pressure, and overcome the early inertia you get a slip, then smooth movement. This is not a failure in the unit, but a characteristic of electromagnets, and physics.”
I’m in the same boat: cannot comment on the over/under wattage discrepancies since I don’t have another power meter to compare, but otherwise the Neo2T has performed flawlessly.
Only small problem is that disc callipers slightly touch the Neo2T when bouncing, but I contacted Garmin/Tacx and they will send me a small spacer to correct that.
I have the Neo 2.
The slipping is a non issue in my case. It does not effect my training.
When the unit slips it is very short and resistance increases very quickly. You don’t keep slipping.
To make the unit slip momentarily I need to have the flywheel moving very slowly. I then stick it in a high gear and suddenly stomp on the pedals.
The slip is the time it takes for the electronics to increase the resistance. A split second maybe.
The Neo 2 is more responsive than my Kickr Core in adjusting resistance, but the Kickr has a heavy flywheel attached via belt that cannot slip IME.
The downside to that heavy flywheel is it vibrates as it isn’t very well balanced in my unit.
HTH.
So I got my Neo 2T last week and I can not for the life of me understand the Tacx software and how I actually start training with it.
Are there any guides or videos on getting started with it as there doesn’t seem to be anything useful on the Tacx website. An email to them just told me to log on the ‘Cloud’, which again is totally un-intuitive and has no guides or help files. They also told me to use the Tacx training app, but it doesn’t appear I can use this on my laptop, only on my smartphone, which has a 5″ screen, so is going to be pretty useless.
So I’m getting pretty fed up and not even pedaled the bloody thing yet!
Any advice gratefully received.
Thanks, Matt.
You don’t have to use any Tacx software (except to update the firmware). Most people with a trainer use Zwift or TrainerRoad. Sufferfest is also popular, there are a lot more options link to dcrainmaker.com
On your computer you cannot use the Tacx Training App, you have to use the Tacx Desktop App (TDA).
I am actually almost exclusively using TDA because I prefer the Tacx films, they are really good.
Here is a link to the TDA user manual:
link to tacx.com
Ok, so even when I’m not pedalling it’s showing I’m doing 400 or so watts?
What is going on with this bloody thing?!
At this rate it will be going back for a refund and I’ll be back on my trusty old rollers.
Very unimpressed with ‘smart’ trainers so far…
So after multiple resets, turning everything off and back on again and multiple attempts to get it to connect to my smartphone I was able to start the Mount Teide training ride.
Except the video kept dropping out and going to a black screen despite very strong internet signal and the speed was 4km/h at 200watts on a 5% slope. Any ideas what is going on here and how to get the speed working correctly?
Matt.
There is a very active owners group support page on Facebook with some pretty knowledgeable owners. You will probably get a lot more help there in working through you issues.
link to facebook.com
Thanks. I feel like I need support :-)
Cheers.
Hi Is there an update on the power reading error? firmware update yet or due? Is the Elite drivo 11 now the price has dropped £850 a viable option over the 2T or even the kickr? Thanks
The new 2T has a wider axle making the previous disc extractor tool useless. It also has stronger magnets making it more likely to develop the annoying traditional Neo metallic noise under the disc. The new tool is not yet available in the US. Availability is uncertain at this point.
I just got my Neo 2T today, I see that firmware 0.0.32 is available in the Tacx Utility app.
Any idea what’s new since 0.0.31 which was fixing the ERG mode ?
0.0.32 must be quite recent as firmware 0.0.31 is still listed on the Garmin forums as the current one.
I read that firmware 0.0.32 fixes issue with the cadence sensor.
Anyway, after a first 1 hour test, mine works perfectly. I had a Neo 1 before and I find that the 2T give a better, smoother road feel.
The new firmware should solve the cadance problem some of us have.
I got my neo 2T more than a week ago, and cadance wasn’t reliable at all. I mailed Tacx support, and two days ago they mailed me that the new firmware solved the problem. But it didn’t at all. Instead I got the impression the software now shows the last known cadance number when the signal drops, because my graph now shows a perfectly steady cadance, although I varied slightly and even varied a lot. Sometimes cadance completly disappeared.
This is a picture off my first ride with 0.0.31 software. I’ll post the short ride with 0.0.32 also.
Here’s the picture of my ride with the latest firmware 0.0.32, which didn’t solve the problem.
Ray, when you get the chance of doing the indept review of the Neo 2T, please pay attention to this problem. From what I’ve read, the issue might be happening mainly on a bike with a long chainstay. In that case the left foot doesn’t reach the cadance sensor. Some have resolved it by attaching something to elongate the left crank.
No problem with cadence in my case. Here is the picture of the 1 hour test I did yesterday. My bike is Pinarello in size 55, the chainstain is 408mm.
Yeah, no issues with my ride yesterday on .32 either (or .31) with cadence. Totally normal. I just have a regular non-long derailleur bike.
My bike is a Specialized Epic fully from 2015, 29inch, large, with a chainstay of 448 mm.
I guess this might make the difference.
My Domane SL6 has 420mm chainstays. Do you think that will be any problem for the Neo 2T? Not much longer than mf22433’s 408mm.
I think I’ve decided to go with the Neo 2T when Clever has their sale in the next week or two. Hopefully Tacx will not be excluded this year but with the new ownership I’m not getting my hopes up too much.
See the picture below, the position of my crank relative to the base of the 2T (I think the cadence sensor is located at the base of the non drive side of the 2T).
The length of your crank may play a role as well, mine are 175mm.
I can imagine that with a chainstay of 448 like Mark’s (4cm longer than mine) it will place the crank further away from the 2T and that could be an issue. A 165mm would again increase the gap by 1cm as compared to my 175mm.
I understand that Tacx now has a little device to attach to the crank to “extend” it for those who would face this issue which then very much depends on the geometry of your bike.
This is a picture of my pedal relative to the base of the 2T
And this is the solution I use to get a reliable cadance
Thanks for the pictures guys.
Mark, I can certainly see why you would have trouble with the cadence. There is a pretty large distance between the sensor and your crank arm. It looks like Tacx should be thinking about tweaking the design a bit since longer chainstays aren’t going to be going away any time soon.
mf22433, with my 420mm stays and 172.5mm crank arms I would be about 14.5mm in front of where yours is. Hopefully, that will be close enough. If not I guess I can always use something to extend it like Mark or just use my Garmin cadence sensor that is on the crank I guess.
Tacx support sent me a spacer to solve the problem of the disc brake housing, and a metal piece to elongate my crank arm. Cadance is perfect now, so it wasn’t a software problem.
Riders who use a bike with a longer chain stay and experience cadance problems, should definitely look at this solution. You can easily fabricate a DIY piece.
I wanted to know if there is an improved feel when you are off the saddle. In the earlier version I would feel that the slip prevented me from staying up too long off the saddle. Is it better in this one?
Any news on firmware updates to the Neo 2T fixing the undervaluing of top end power you mentioned in the test above?
Thanks
Yes, the latest firmware helps considerably. It’s not perfect, but it is mostly acceptable.
So I must be doing something wrong. I hope…
I upgraded from a Hammer H2, using a bike with Ultegra 10 speed cassette. The shifting was off. I used the Tacx spacer, and had to re-index the shifting. Nice…
Then the ride was odd. The H2 felt like the flywheel kinda dragged along at time, like coasting. The 2T didn’t coast at all. The power kept jumping all over the place too. Not huge, I guess, but it was like 20 watts or so at similar cadence. It was also quick to death spiral if the cadence drifted lower, it seemed.
What settings are there and what should I have set? I was hoping for a ‘deluxe ride’, and out of the gate had issues. Disappointing…
Thanks for any ideas on what’s happening…
Now I heard that the supplied spacer is too thin. Why? Really? WTH!
Did you take the full cassette (and spacers) directly off of the H2 and slide it onto the NEO? Or was this a new cassette/arrangement?
Just the cassette. Following the directions with the 2T, unless that spacer they have in the bag is not the spacer I need.
Someone on FB just told me to use the spacer from the H2 AND the Tacx spacer. That seems a little extreme to me, but now I’ve got a freaked out Ultegra rear derailleur, and need to get it back to reality so I can swap wheels for trainer.
And by ‘coasting’, I meant that the flywheel made up for some irregularities in my cadence. The 2T death spiraled a couple of times as I adjusted myself to the new normal. I generally have a fairly consistent cadence, I thought.
Never seen that on coasting on the 2T and I’ve been throwing all sorts of wonky things at it as of late. In fact, I’ve never seen a death spiral on a NEO at all.
The power jumped as I slowed my cadence playing with position on the bike. It surprised me. Death spiral is a little harsh possibly…
And on the spacer, use the H2 spacer AND the Tacx one too?
And I just found this ‘tacx faqx’ page.
So, for Ultegra cassettes, 2mm of spacers have to be installed. It’s not in the manual, and hasn’t been since the Neo 2, possibly the original Neo.
Sorry I didn’t know that.
I debated on using my 11 speed Roubaix. I should have done that for sure. I wouldn’t have had any issues with the shifting. DOH!!!
I donated all my old 10-speed parts to recycle-a-bike, so it’s off to the LBS to get a spacer.
You can delete this comment/thread if you want. I’ll get along. I do love the quietness of the 2T. I’ll survive.
So I called Garmin. Glad I did.
They said my 2T is working as it should.
So, in ERG mode, there is no simulated flywheel. The 2T is holding me to the set point. If I stop pedaling, I have to fight to get it turning again (death spiral) until it’s up to what is required. There is no ‘coasting’ in ERG mode on the 2T. Supposedly it DOES coast in ‘sim mode’. Also, the 2T requires the rider to be in a smaller gear. I rode the H2 in the big ring, towards 18 to 20. The 2T wants me in the small ring, and probably at 5 to 7. That is why it was death spiraling on me. I was trying to slow my cadence down to get the power set point, and it was thinking I was dropping power and demanded more. (I thought that regardless of the input, the 2T should be holding the set point. It seems odd that it demands (asks?) for the input to be within a certain range)
ALL of this is contrary to how the H2 works. It has a real flywheel, obviously, and that flywheel sometimes makes riding the H2 difficult, but it always works.
This has been interesting… The assumptions and method of handling the same task/process. The way they handle ERG mode seems wrong, but *shrug*.
I also need to work on my pedaling, to be smoother, but anyway.
So this has been a learning experience. I hope my commentary and experience will help someone in the future…
Hi CowRob,
I can’t say I’ve used the H2, so no idea about that comparison. I do own a Kickr and the Neo2 for reference.
During the middle of a workout on the Neo2 I tried to see if it would coast at different power outputs.
If you’re only putting out 100-150watts it coasts just fine. Bump that up and the resistance unit stops any coasting pretty quickly. It’s much the same on the Kickr.
A bit like riding outside on a 30% grade and trying to coast.
Does the Hammer behave differently to this?
I’ve found the latest update on the Neo2 noticeably coasts more than the earlier firmware versions. Maybe the 2T behaves differently to the Neo/Neo2?
(I’d figured the extra coasting at low speed was to limit the virtual slip when stomping on the pedals at low flywheel speeds).
Gotta love a death spiral. Legs say no then computer says no!
Spanish Needle rings a bell.
Here is a Garmin Connect graph of a ride with the Neo 2T, and the H2. The 2T drives like a fixie spin bike.
The difference is quite striking. This is the Baxter ride.
The H2 graph…
Hey CowRob.
Both those graphs look similar to graphs from the Kickr or the Neo2. Cadence and speed track each other if you stay in the same gear throughout a workout.
The second graph from the H2 looks like you changed gears early on and then stayed in a higher gear.
What is the power doing during intervals using erg mode?
Here’s a similar pic using the same gear for the entire workout.
And another pic of the same workout showing power.
Personally, I’ve found very little difference between the feel of the virtual flywheel and a real flywheel design.
Have you tried doing the same workout in the same gear on both units? You mention in your earlier comment that you had to run the 2T in a different gear? That doesn’t sound right.
I don’t usually change gears in rides. I can ride the H2 for the same TR ride again, and see what it looks like. The only time I change physical gears is when not riding in ERG mode.
Hi CowRob,
Try it and see what happens. The speed and cadence should mirror each other as the reported speed is linked directly to cadence and gear ratio.
You really shouldn’t have to be pedalling in lower gears on the Neo. I do it because I’m riding XCM and that’s how it feels, but the unit works fine with higher gear ratios.
There’s a wattage floor on every traine9r that can cause problems in higher gears. That could be causing you to chase power targets through a reduction in cadence?
No shame in having a lower FTP than the next person. There’s always someone cooler than you. I’m very familiar with having my ass handed to me by a 100kg mate with a lower FTP than me.
Is it possible that lowering the gearing is causing the low inertia feeling?
If so, it’s a totally different beast doing workouts at opposite ends of the gearing range. It’ll catch you out if you’re not careful.
I’m sure if you train in the gearing range you use most outside you’ll get s o me solid results on the 2T.
I noticed that the H2 has a 20lb flywheel. That’s a big flywheel. Bigger than the Kickr even.
I’d guess if you’re training for a TT that would be very realistic.
Several of the Zwift L’Etape du Tour de France rides require a slow cadence. Zwift actually demands the cadence be below a certain high set point. Trying to get that low on the 2T seemed very slow, and the effort seemed to increase a bit, which didn’t make sense, or make it productive to fight it. I don’t usually ride low cadence as it stresses my knees too much.
According to the graphs I posted, I expected the ‘speed’ to be more similar between the two as ERG would keep the power close to the set point. I did pull a power graph out of each ride, and the power is remarkably the same except for some high instantaneous spikes on the 2T. Is the speed difference because of the flywheel, which doesn’t make sense to me. Shouldn’t they be largely similar for similar input?
The changes between the two trainers have me thinking of returning the 2T. It’s so much more *different* than the H2. There seem to be so many little issues with the design/operation of the 2T, to me. I don’t know which one is more realistic, or even better, from a training standpoint, and don’t have much hope that Garmin (Tacx itself still perhaps) will be able, or inclined, to address them, or if they even need to be fixed. Perhaps I was spoiled on the H2. It is my first smart trainer, and I can’t dismiss the idea that it might not be the ‘best trainer’, but seemed to work. I was just having issues with power dropping, and cadence being sketchy at times.
An issue I discovered with the 2T is that my pain cave floor isn’t level. The 2T has no inherent leveling feature, so I’m using some 1/2″ workbench gripper pucks I got at the local hardware. They actually nailed the height I needed, so far. The frame seems to creak and rock a little more though. (And I wonder if my house is sinking)
The H2 does have a ‘real’ flywheel. I never noticed it until I was trying to move it. Having no flywheel makes me wonder why the 2T is so heavy. There must be a lot of ballast in it.
Thanks for your replies. It’s given me a lot to think about.
All good. Best of luck getting things dialled in and getting back to your training.
I’m sure nearly any trainer can give you solid results in that regard. Warts and all.
PS. The trainer speed is a made up number based on the flywheel rpm and the imaginary wheel diameter. It’s best not to worry about it in erg mode.
If you’re doing two identical workouts in erg mode and using the same gearing ratio the speed will only be the same if you hold the same cadence. That’s why both your graphs have different speeds, yet similar power.
Nothing wrong with either trainer there!
I typically tend to use a higher cadence as my legs fatigue. It’s totally normal.
I ride a higher cadence too because of my knees. I can’t take the grinding of low cadence as much anymore.
Have you heard any news regarding FTMS support for Neo 1 and 2?
Yeah, they’re working on it, but the timeline is currently “unknown” (as of last week).
Hello, thank you for your review.
I’m hesitating to buy my my first home trainer and i was thinking of the neo.
My only question is: (i know it’s personal but can’t make my mind) is it worth buying the neo 2t at full price or get the neo 2 at 25% discount?
I’m not a professional or a experienced rider. I do a couple o triathlons but just to have fun.
Is the slippery cases of the neo 2 that bad?
Thanks in advance
I, personally, can think of better trainers for a ‘first trainer’.
I’d also, if you are totally sold on a Neo trainer, to save your money and get the 2. Buy it new, but realize that it still has some idiosyncrasies that need to be taken into account. One that has surprised me is that the Neo has no leveling feature. That was surprising to me, as well as find out that the room I have it in has a floor that is not level. My house is sinking apparently.
Thank you for your comment.
What would you get as a first trainer?
Needs to go on road bike and mtb 26 and 29
Core, or H3.
My reasoning is that I started ‘cheap’, not sure if I would like the process, or methods. I really liked the ability to ride and got into the process. Should I have gotten ‘The Best Trainer’ to start? Well, maybe, but…
But, you do you. Do due diligence, and if possible, try trainers at shops, or friends. Do a ‘site survey, and if the floor is not level, that might weigh in your choice. I started with a used H2, and had no issues, except the ‘flywheel effect’. *shrug*
Rock on, and buy what fits your purpose.
About to pull the trigger. Will my older Gen1 SpeedConcept fit on the new 2T?
It could be problematic. Maybe find a shop with one for demo, and do a test fit?
link to forum.slowtwitch.com
Thinking of upgrading from my original KICKR’14 to a NEO 2T.
Power value was always a bit off on my KICKR above 250watts so I’ve been using a pair or P1’s to control the KICKR with TrainerRoad PowerMatch feature in ERG mode – no shifting.
Overall I am used to this setup and to the power variations (similar riding outdoors).
A quieter trainer would be nice but would I get more from such an upgrade?
I followed GPLama’s video, and lubed the hub on the 2T, and replaced the chain, and jockey wheels on my bike, and it’s really extremely quiet. I mean, compared to the H2 I had, the 2T sounds like a cat, purring compared to the H2 as a DC9 idling, and worse at high watts.
The issues I’ve had are the 2T over shooting the power at low cadence. You HAVE to ride in the small ring, and middle or less of the cassette. But the silence has made it so nice. I do hear it at really high power, but it’s more of a loud whisper over my Powerbeats Pro’s than a shouting drunken brawl over my older heavier headphones. I hear the fans more than the trainer now.
I haven’t ridden a Kickr, so I have no real world experience, but the Neo is damned, almost freakishly, quiet.
Please can anyone tell me about the ventilation “holes” in Neo’s case, which one is the intake and which one is the exhaust ?
The round ones draw air in at the bottom and the one at the top is the exhaust.
Pretty sure it’s the same on all of the Neo’s.
I eventually covered with mosquito nets all three holes, so no more dust intake at the bottom or electrostatically attracted dust at the top, just hope this won’t affect the cooling too much.
I’m looking at upgrading my Kurt kinetic old school to either kickr18 or neo2. I’m leaning on neo2 right now because it’s on sale in Australia aud$1489 as opposed to $1899 for 2T. The slippage in neo 2 does not bother me but what else is better in 2T that warrants the extra $400? If money is not an issue, is 2T better or spend the $400 on something else?
From what I understand, the slippage is the primary reason to get the Neo 2T over the Neo 2. If the slippage doesn’t bother you, I’d go for the Neo 2.
I purchased the 2T because I was able to get a great discount on it, otherwise I’d have likely gotten the Neo 2. I’ve never owned a trainer before, so I can’t really compare it to anything else. I really like it, though!
Congrats… yours reviews are awesome! Just a quick doubt, does TACX NEO2T work for a bike with a long cage?
Tks in advanced…
Lucas – Brazil
I am looking for a trainer to use with my mountain bike. I am not a super strong rider and my cadence is pretty slow. On a spin bike I can put out a maximum of 370watts. Is the wheel slip issue going to be a problem for me if I want to simulate climbing a steep hill in low gear? Is that something anyone does or are all the training programs just assuming you are in a higher gear? If i was putting out 250watts at 6kph would that cause this trainer to slip?
The brand new out-of-the-box Neo2T in ERG mode with slow cadence+small chainring+largest cog does not create the expected resistance. Garmin/Tacx has yet to answer that to my support request. Anyway, even if my trainer has hardware issues and needs servicing or replacement, I doubt that that will be physically possible in the foreseeable future, given the current COVID19 pandemic+lockdowns. So be aware that it is possible that you may be stuck with a high-end expensive brick.
When I asked about ERG mode inconsistencies, I was flippantly told to not train in ERG mode. It was a phone conversation with their support people shortly after I bought mine, or I’d have the comment to post. I came from a Hammer H2, and expected the 2T to be very similar, and in a few ways, it wasn’t. I get the ‘simulated flywheel’ idea, but how hard can it be to simulate one? To be told not to use ERG mode was stunning. Some help…
But I’ve gotten over a lot of this. I just try to not let it get to me. I paid for a trainer, to be told to not use the main aspect of it in training.
I still notice the ERG issues. Some of it seems to have been fixed, or made less evident, but most still remain. I’d like to experiment with an H3, but ran out of money. I have thought of selling it, but with things the way they are currently, I’ll just keep things the way they are. Stay safe!
Reliability has been my other concern, it seems like either the wahoo or neo could be a pain to get fixed. I was tempted by the reconditioned wahoo kickr on their website but a small percentage of people said they still arrived broken and dirty. So I don’t know how to choose between a good deal and a brand new one which might also be defective…
The only issues I’ve heard about, pre-virus, was the shortage of the 2T flywheel puller, and an occasional issue with detritus getting into the magnets, and a few people with bearing issues.
All trainers are proprietary to a certain amount. Special tools can be required to service them. Yes, it could really suck if they die, but what can anyone do, especially now. I think the local bike shops are all closed because of the virus, and shipping the 2T back for service would suck hard, but it’s still better than not having one. Buying used leaves you in a position to have to find service yourself. At least with a warranty, you know who to contact and send it to. Maybe iFixit can get into doing videos of self-repair for bike trainers and sell some tools, like the 2T puller.
@CowRob – I feel you, brother. ERG mode is the only reason I was retarded enough to purchase the Neo2T, and unfortunately this trainer fails to deliver to the expectations. I also have the Wahoo Kickr 2014 trainer, and it delivers whatever you want in ERG mode.
I kept thinking part of it was me. That I was not looking at it right somehow. One local told me to be grateful that it works, and that I bought a trainer ‘too big for me’. Talk about supportive…
But it DOES work. It’s just a little ‘eccentric’. Like I keep subtracting 2 second off of intervals to get ready for the surge, or sag. I see others riding in TBR and the gaps between demand and performance, and remember not seeing that on the H2, but it is a way to work harder I suppose. Hidden benefit?
But the H2 also had its issues. Having that huge flywheel meant that it also helped me ‘cheat’ a bit because of its momentum. The 2T doesn’t seem to like that in ERG mode, no coasting, unless it’s in ‘regular mode’. The 2T does have the whole getting a massive flywheel turning again down pretty well, perhaps too well. And at least Zwift fixed the Supertuck issue. *eyesroll* and road feel has been interesting. I do wish they would just turn it off on gravel as it makes such a grinding almost humming noise at high cadence/power. Cobbles do provide a foot massage though. :-D
I was, the last time I emailed their support, told to ‘wait for the next update’. It didn’t fix the ERG mode issues, so still waiting… Still riding…
It has been quiet. So much quieter than the H2. I like it, but it has issues. Seeing that red glow is nice.
@CowRob – The 2T works, but I am not sure at which degree of accuracy. Which is the whole point of my anger against Garmin’s marketed “1% accuracy”. What does “1% accuracy” even mean, man ? The physical wheel in Saris, Wahoo or whatever other smart trainers **may** be used to cheat if you use big chainring+small cog. But the “truth ride” of a smart trainer, however, is demonstrated when you use small chainring+largest cog+low cadence. There is where the real smart trainers prove their real value. As the classical Wahoo Kickr 2014 does 99% of times. And where the 2T fails pathetically 99% of the time. The low virtual speed induced by the small chainring+largest cog+low cadence combination puts a real test on the trainer’s electronic motherboard. If the 2T’s electronics cannot deliver up to my ERG expectations while using small chainring+largest cog+low cadence, how can I trust that this expensive trainer can accurately simulate 25% climbs in Zwift or Rouvy simulations (please name one single human able to climb 25% in any other way than small chainring+largest cog+low cadence).
I get your comments. Yeah, what is ‘accuracy’, and is it ‘accurate’. But if you start up that road, is anything accurate. I was bummed by the Peloton bike, finding out that the ‘power’ they claim is estimated/calculated. No one knows what the formula is, but it’s not really very accurate, and the bikes themselves are crap for accuracy. One bike to another, the same rider on the same ride can vary by up to 20%, or some say even more. But it’s not made for heavy training. It’s basically a ‘smart spin bike’.
One thing I had to realize is that it was very inaccurate, but each ride was consistent. So I traded accuracy for consistency. It worked. At the low, I quit using the Peloton for almost 6 months. Accuracy seems to be a big ask from the industry.
Is the 2T accurate? For the most part, yes. Is it perfect? More so than the Peloton, but it has its issues. I’ve tried to compare my 2T with my Stages, and haven’t had much success getting usable data to make a comparison. I have to think of the 2T as being like the Peloton, in that each ride is consistent, whether it’s accurate. Chasing accuracy can get pretty involved and lead to a lot of time spent chasing it. The issues I have with the 2T are what I see as the difference between the 2T and the H2. They don’t seem to be very consistent between them, rather than inaccurate per se. (I chased ‘accuracy’ on the Peloton, and ‘recalibrated’, and suffered because of it. There is no way to see where the bike is, and where it ended up, except for the end of any PR’s.)
Pursue accuracy, but I don’t know if you can get it is the bottom line I guess. *shrug* Somethings we have to accept. I may have to accept the issues with the 2T that I’ve seen and move on. Good luck…
@CowRob – this is by far the most educated hands-on answer I have got this far about how this 2T trainer “thinks”. Not even DCRainMaker managed to do that. This (CowRob’s post) ultimately goes to where I’ve spent my money on the 2T smart trainer. Which is more thoughtful that all Garmin/Tacx support staff bothered to answer me so far. So thank you, CowRob. Not you, DCRainMaker.
Mihai said: “So thank you, CowRob. Not you, DCRainMaker.”
Sorry Mihai, it seems like you might be confused.
I’m sorry that you didn’t read the bolded text at the top of this post that says to go read the more updated review.
I’m sorry that you didn’t read the numerous parts of this preview/early hands-on post where I outlined all of the ERG mode issues you noted and why I didn’t recommend folks buy the NEO 2T at launch.
I’m sorry that you didn’t read the review where I outlined all of the pros and cons that CowRob stated (thanks CowRob), and noted the issues around responsiveness in my final review.
I’m sorry that in that final review I discussed ways to mitigate them, and that you decided against reading it to come here and get upset instead.
I’m sorry that you’re confusing ERG mode with SIM mode, such as your statement here: “please name one single human able to climb 25% in any other way than small chainring+largest cog+low cadence” – no, because there’s no such thing at 25% incline in ERG mode. Thus, the small-ring + large cog going up a climb isn’t an issue. Nobody has ever said it’s an issue for the NEO 2T either.
There’s a good reason why *EVERY* trainer company, including Wahoo and Tacx, recommend using small ring in the front for ERG mode if you want to increase responsiveness and set-point accuracy. That’s never changed. By reducing flywheel speed you increase accuracy. Again, things that by and large are ERG-mode focused less than SIM mode.
Finally, I’m sorry that I didn’t rush to answer you comment as opposed to spending time with my three kids this Sunday afternoon. I’m not sure why my lack of answering you within a couple hours requires you to get all upset and start throwing insults at me.
Glad I could help. I think.
I’ve tried to talk people out of getting the 2T, or to at least wait until more things are fixed. I’m sure this pandemic is going to make things worse, not better on that point. One told me to buzz off, they wanted ‘the best’, and they got it, I guess. One friend with a 2T rides it in the big ring constantly, and I commented on it, and they keep doing it, so It’s not my deal. I started recently riding a few rides in TBR, and yeah, it can hurt more, and the speed seems to be high too.
*shrug*
Some things were fixed (tweaked) in the last 2T update. Although I’m still reliving my ‘don’t use ERG mode for training’ edict so flippantly thrown out.
I ride this thing every day. I have over 1,600 miles in this year, and almost 2,000 on the 2T total. It’s not perfect, but it works.
So, long way of saying: Glad to have helped, if I did, and if I didn’t, oh well. Keep the rubber side down and just ride. Riding for sanity. Riding to stay safe.
And kids grow up too damn quickly to not spend time with them. Ride on!
Which ERG inconsistencies, and in what way do they manifest? Mihai mentioned big ring with small cog and low cadence. How “off” is it? Specifics?
I’m a big ring rider, for the most part other trainers are OK until the power requirement is too low (trainer power floor). I do use a bigger cog though, chainline and all, and usually it’s under 20mph for the flywheel. It’s decidedly different with the small ring. I notice needing more torque in the big ring, but a bit of a breather, compared to the small ring. Other than the time to adjust to the power target, what are the issues? There seems to be mention that there’s a big inconsistency, but nothing specific.
This is from a ride in Trainerroad. The demand was 135W, and I was riding 143W average. There are a lot more instances during this ride, but I did an entire interval (well, most of it) to see if it was still happening. And it is.
I’m sure others, like DC and GPLama have better data to show this effect. I did not experience this with the H2 I had. Why, I do not know. It’s one thing I noticed pretty quickly riding the 2T, and I thought it was a sign that the processor can’t keep up with the data enough to smooth it, and keep it at the demand. So I don’t know if the data is accurate. It *seems* easier, riding in TBR. Maybe that is some of Tacx simulating, partially apparently, an actual flywheel. *shrug*
I can see where there might be issues riding a real flywheel faster, so maybe Tacx is trying to make a ‘better’ flywheel. (It does make me wonder why the 2T is so dang heavy, but I’m glad it is I suppose)
That’s interesting. So it was actually reporting power that was over, not that the it is saying it hit the target but a 2nd/3rd power meter on the bike reported something different?
I do have a Stages L/R power meter on this bike, and have looked at the data live, which is fairly pointless. I haven’t figured out how to capture the two streams of data, one from Trainerroad, the other from the Stages, so I haven’t been able to ‘prove’ anything. Watching the Stages app while riding, the data jumps all over the place, and appear to have a bit of a lag in it too.
This is where DC could likely provide the data comparison you want. He probably has it linked here, or somewhere on this site.
(I’m thinking if I use an ANT+ dongle and another MacBook, I could probably capture the Stages data. Keeping it off wifi should stop it reporting the session. I’ve been curious about the data for a while. I’m an amateur statistician I guess)
Yeah, you would need multiple head units. I haven’t tried using multiple computers, takes up too much space.
That’s interesting that it’s the Neo 2T that is actually over reporting. I don’t think I’ve seen that one before, except on low wattage scenarios (on Kickr and other real flywheel trainers). My H3 can handle everything, but when I’m in the low wattage range, I don’t really pedal at 100rpm, just doesn’t feel right.
In your chart, what gearing were you in?
For tips on how I do power meter accuracy comparisons, check out this post: link to dcrainmaker.com
But yes, in short you need two recording devices. If you’ve got an app like TrainerRoad or Zwift recording the trainer, then have your Garmin or Wahoo or whatever record the power meter at the same time.
That said, one should differentiate between:
A) Absolute power accuracy (meaning, when it says you’re doing 150w, but it’s actually doing 140w)
B) Power set point accuracy (meaning, the app tells it to do 175w, but it only does 150w, but it does properly tell you it’s only doing 150w).
Generally speaking, all of my ‘accuracy’ issues with the NEO 2T fall into camp B. I detailed this in my full NEO 2T review as to what changed from this post in September to my review a few months later. Note, despite actually using the NEO 2T once or twice a week since, I haven’t dug into any data sets much on set-point accuracy since, in more recent firmware. Maybe I’ll do so with some workouts this week and see how things have improved in the last few months.
Thanks DC Rainmaker. I’ve read the updated review when it first came out. I didn’t see any mention of anything as egregious, for B, as the above example of 143W vs 135W, which is a 6% variation. They looked mostly inline with what was attempted, even in your TrainerRoad graph.
I’m going to read the article again, just to be sure.
Do you have any idea of what might cause CowRob’s variance? I’d imagine TrainerRoad told it 135W, and somehow the Neo interpreted it as 143W. Or is that perhaps it’s between some steps in stepper motor?
Okay, so I’ve had a beer after riding, so…
Some of this is probably due to the ‘averaging’, or ‘smoothing’ of the different sources. I would believe that the Stages app is showing the ‘output’ as it sees it. Does it have delays? Probably. I’d actually bet on it. Is it the ‘real’ raw data? Again, probably not.
I guess I tend to be a lot more skeptical of data reported by just about anyone. You can outrageously lie with statistics, and recklessly reporting ‘data’ is equally suspect.
Do I think that the 2T is that inaccurate, or even worse? Well, the ‘data’ looks like it is, but how was the data processed, was it ‘really raw data’, or processed. I just used my Edge 1030 during a ride, and realized that it was reporting 3 second averaged power data, and TrainerRoad was reporting ‘smoothed’ data. An eye sight comparison of that ‘data’ would probably show a lot of issues that might not be there.
NEVER trust data, or statistics, without knowing what they asked, who they asked, and the raw breakdown of the data, and how the data might have been ‘processed/smoothed’. Not knowing that means you are really trusting data that you have no clue over it’s ‘authenticity’.
If I went to a Trump rally, and asked 100 people what they thought of trump, I’m sure he would come out to be the best damn president that has ever been presidenting ever in all of history. If I ride a device that ‘smooths’ the data, you would think that I was a pro-rider, able to hold a cadence forever.
What I’m saying is that you can’t trust anyone’s interpretation of their data. I have a jaundiced view of Tacx’s interpretation of their accuracy, but I’ve grown to doubt everyone’s statements of accuracy.
I’m disappointed in the ‘quality’ of the Neo 2T, in regards to the ‘accuracy’. But it probably is accurate to the data that it delivers. If it’s 1% accurate to the data that it senses, then it’s ‘accurate’, but if the scale they use is off, they are inaccurate. So who is right? Both? Yes. Sort of. But back to my days ago statement, is ANYTHING accurate? Hmm…
If you chase accuracy, it’s going to be a long fight. *shrug*
Stay safe, ride safe. Life needs more cowbell…
(Hope this makes sense)
.fit files shouldn’t be averaged. it should be the data it received at that point in time. what’s displayed on the screen, can be 3s averaged, etc., but the .fit file data won’t be.
what’s the scale of your trainerroad snip? I assumed it was a multi-minute interval, and was average 143w over that period. In retrospect, did you zoom in on a very specific section? All along I was thinking it was a 5+ minute interval, and it’s telling numbers that far off (which is horrendous). Or did you zoom it into a second, and the actual power over the interval was more accurate? It could very well be my misunderstanding of your picture, since it lacks scale markers.
I think people do tend to conflate accuracy and precision. Accuracy should be +/- 1% across *ALL* Neo 2T devices. Not just within 1 sample. If 1 sample was close in reading, and another sample was 20% off (and not marked as defective), then they can’t claim 1% accuracy. With Neo, I would expect to take my bike off, go to a friends house (post COVID-19) with a Neo for a group Zwift ride, and drop it on and get the same numbers within +/- 1%. Now it’s base number may be different than a pedal based power meter, based on how they are calibrating, but it should be very consistent between trainers (one would hope).
Within that 1 device, that reading may be repeatable. That’s precision. It could be way off the base expected number, but it may be precisely inaccurate in it’s execution.
Short minor spikes, is a big don’t care for me, but if I’m doing a 20 minute interval @ 300W, I want 300W average, as measured….not 320W, which would cause me to blow up.
Maybe I missed it – but do you have any DCR Analyzer data sets, or comparison graphs with a public link? That’s the easiest way to dive into things.
No, but I did do two intervals in TrainerRoad today, and recorded the TR entire ride, and two of the intervals on my Edge. One an 18 minute and another 10 minute interval. I will get them off the Edge tomorrow.
I assume that I have to download the raw data file, and not have Garmin Connect upload it to the web. I had everything turned off, connection wise, when I did the Edge recording. I did try to do an entire workout once, and when I looked, all the data looked the same. I assume that something was overwritten, but gave up after that. I had plans to get an H3 to do live comparisons, but the sale at REI ended.
Tomorrow…
I assume you were asking me?
nunya: That’s where stuff gets weird. Yes, that was on the display, and who knows what the delay from reality is on the displayed value. I’m sure it opens a whole different box of strange when you start looking at the computers and the static of the connection, and any ‘smoothing’ being done by so many things. If I look at the Stages displayed values, and compare them to the TrainerRoad displayed values, there is a difference. Sometimes the instant shows, for example today, 120 on the eds, and 140 on the TrainerRoad screen. But, knowing that the Stages meters are notoriously (right?) delayed, was that 2 seconds ago, 5 seconds ago, or 3.6 seconds ago.
And the .fit files can be inaccurate too. How much of a delay is in the data from the 2T, and what is the delay for the Edge? Are they writing the same data at the same time that are the same timestamp?
Forgive me, but after getting so ‘burned’ by the inaccuracies of the Peloton, I got so disillusioned ‘chasing data’.
I’ll post what I have, and try to get a comparison through the analyzer, tomorrow, and post that. I didn’t record the entire ride on the Edge, so let’s see if anything meaingful comes out of it. (Did GPLama do data comparisons of the 2T he had/has? He said he liked the H3 after I had bought the 2T. *sigh* The 2T works. Accurate? *shrug*)
Cheers…
Stay safe…
From my science background and experience of stats:
Something which is precise always gives the same value.
Something which is accurate averages to the correct value.
Something which is accurate and precise always gives the same value, which is the correct value.
Hopefully the attached picture helps explain this.
I did a ride yesterday and captured it on Strava, and my edge. It’s kind of all over the place, plus there is a time shift through the data noticeable from the midpoint, and it gets worse as the ride progresses. And the power readings are quite a bit off, to me.
I took some screen caps of the graphs.
Power…
Yeah, that’s unacceptably way out. You’ve got a bad unit somewhere. Be it the trainer or your power meter, that’s 100% not normal.
Here are the ‘stats’.
Cadence to show the drift is across all data.
As I was watching the Edge (the Stages l/r pm) bouncing the power around during the ride, it seemed to be roughly inline with the set power from TR, and seemed, if anything, possibly slightly lower. It bounced around a bit, but it was roughly at the demand. The power reported by the Neo to the TR app was at times over 25 watts off high.
I assume there is a way to pair my Stages instead of the Neo for power. That would be interesting.
I’m assuming that it’s the Neo that is ‘bad’? Is there any backdoor way to calibrate it, or find out what’s going on? Not that I’m a pro rider, but I’m surprised at how far out the training devices are.
And thanks for the quick response.
Oh, is a ‘time drift’ common when analyzing data like this? If the time is off, how can anything else be correct. Yikes… It’s time. How hard can that be…
Oh, it looks like the ‘drift’ started with the time I stopped to adjust my bibs, and just accumulated through the ride with each stop. Oops. That’s a long time to be in the saddle…
Part of my chat with Garmin Support.
Not to surprisingly, they blew me off.
Part 2.
Part 3.
She made the comment that it was ‘very accurate’, and there will always be differences between the two sources, to which I responded that if it’s accurate to itself, then it’s not very accurate. *shrug*
I didn’t expect to get far, and I was rewarded for my skepticism. My earlier support call ended up with the ‘agent’ telling me not to use ERG mode for training. Like, isn’t that what ERG mode was made for?
Sorry to poke at them, but they say it’s accurate. To what? Life goes on… I’ll try using the Stages for the power input.
it looks like you just gave up.
You should ask Ray for advice on how to pursue this. I wouldn’t accept this, not at all, but would not just give up and find a way to get a replacement.
I’m sure Ray has some advice, perhaps some key/trigger words that they need to have. I, too, would also be interested. I just bought a 2T….but I’m waiting a few days for potential virus to have inactivated.
I dropped his name. It didn’t appear to help. I’m not happy, but it’s a bad time to get someone to bend over backward to help me, plus I don’t get the impression that Garmin isn’t very helpful these days.
In the end, I have a trainer. I have a bike, I can ride, still. I can use the Stages for the ‘power’ telemetry source, and see what happens. I’ve had an issue waking up both of the Stages sensors. It’s all a mess.
I don’t know, DC, do you have any input? How should I proceed. Is it worth it? I’ll have to play with the Stages as the power telemetry and see what happens. I’ve never tried that before.
It’s just a shame that the most expensive trainer on the market (that I’m aware of) has this kind of issue.
But I intend on trying to go back through my previous rides, if I can, and see how the H2 handled things. Maybe I’m thinking that the H2 was better than it was back then. (Look at me, now I’m questioning everything. Which might not be all bad)
Thanks…
Hmm…
I looked through my old rides with the H2, and there is only one ride that has the over power. A few of the other ones show spikes, but they usually settle down within a few seconds, and everything looks normal. It’s odd, because many of my rides on the Neo show the over power, and for rather long duration, and the H2 seems to handle the power better, reporting more consistent power.
*shrug*
Maybe there is a problem, Garmin knows about it, and they bought Tacx too soon before they could fix it? Awkward…
Ok…sorry, lots of things in this whole thread. Picking a few out:
Time-shifting: This has *NOTHING* to do with the transmission units (i.e. the Tacx or Stages), but rather, how the recording units (apps or bike computes) handle pauses. In cases where you see ‘drifting’, it’s because you paused one or both units, and one of those apps doesn’t handle pauses correctly. Zwift is one that does it wonky. From a DCR Analyzer standpoint we use written time stamps in the file. Most devices use GPS (like an Edge computer) or time sync (such as your iPhone). As long as the apps/device correctly write the timestamp of each data point, it’s never an issue. However, it’s also why I never pause my recordings during test rides.
Off-sets: If the charts don’t line-up, it’s again because a device isn’t perfectly time synced (see note above on GPS). However drift of those devices is 100% the norm. On every single set I upload, I have to fix for drift a few seconds usually. You can click the set in the DCR Analyzer and add seconds (just type in the number), or slide back seconds, simply type in: -3 for 3 seconds. I cover this in the DCR Analyzer ‘manual’ here: link to dcrainmaker.com
As for the difference between the two, frankly, that’s tough. If anyone walked up to me in a bar and said: Hey, I’ve got a Stages left-only unit and a Tacx NEO unit and they disagree, which one is right? I’ll bet you $100 every time the NEO is right. Because history has told us that it’s almost never inaccurate. It might not respond fast enough (as I saw in my review), or might not hit the set point correctly – but in terms of raw power accuracy, it’s just not an issue I ever see there except in very slim cases. And certainly not across a set like you showed.
However, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a lemon. But I’d first be doing a zero offset of the Stages if you haven’t (aligned properly, with no weight on it), and then if you can find a friend with a power meter that can throw it on the trainer (I know, challenging right now). Or, you can simply throw down the trump card and return the NEO and ask for a swap/refund.
I realize there’s not a silver bullet there, but it’s probably worthwhile at least considering that something askew might be happening with the Stages unit.
“This has *NOTHING* to do with the transmission units (i.e. the Tacx or Stages), but rather, how the recording units (apps or bike computes) handle pauses.”
And I got that. I realized that the ‘drift’ as I incorrectly called it, didn’t look consistent. If it was ‘drift’, it would have started sooner, and progressed at a more incremental rate. I think, in my comment I did mention that it looked tied to my pausing to adjust pads and such. And the analyzer didn’t account for it, but it was probably just wonky data. It happens. I worked as a data analyst and statistician in a past life, and wonky data just happens. Sometimes you can fix it, and other times you just massage it out…
“I cover this in the DCR Analyzer ‘manual’”
And I’ll have to ‘RTFM’ then. No worries…
“As for the difference between the two, frankly, that’s tough. If anyone walked up to me in a bar and said: Hey, I’ve got a Stages left-only unit and a Tacx NEO unit and they disagree, which one is right?”
I’d laugh, or at least chuckle. I have seen some dual power meter graphs that look like total ‘WTH?’ because the balance is so skewed. Like 60/40, and worse. So a single sided power meter would be a disaster, and hide the imbalances. That is why I got the Stages L/R, so I get both rather than a possible optimistic interpretation of my performance. So far, and it surprised a few people who liked to critique my riding style, I’m actually fairly balanced. I was surprised too actually. Who knew I could have saved money and only bought the left Stages. That’s life…
“However, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a lemon. But I’d first be doing a zero offset of the Stages if you haven’t (aligned properly, with no weight on it)”
I did the ‘calibration on the Stages before I started. 1, to make sure both sides were awake, and 2 to make sure they were at least on some level, ‘correct’. I found out that the ‘correct way’ to calibrate/offset them is to put the left crank down. I read that somewhere. The app doesn’t seem to care.
So, yes, I realized the ‘drift’ was me, and TrainerRoad actually stopping time, and the Edge just marching along. I thought I setup the Stages L/R properly, and through my ridiculous chat with the Garmin support minion, was given to think I’m a nut for thinking it should be tied to a third party device that was properly setup.
To be honest, I’m not surprised the data is skewed. I’m not surprised that the whole thing is wonky. The Peloton is a bucket of wonk. (People have mentioned seeing people that top a ride that average astronomical power averages. People hitting 2,000 watts several times on a ride. I posted graphs from someone who looked far too good on the Peloton Facebook group, and they quit the group, exposed I suppose)
I am pursuing this on the idea that the Neo is ‘the most accurate trainer’, and also the most expensive. The former is in question, and the later surely is not because it IS expensive. But is it worth the high cost? I think not. The support is rude, the product isn’t accurate to anything that I can prove it to. I’m disappointed. But I’m not a ‘pro-class rider’. I’d like the bragging rights to show that I ‘blew away’ a TrainerRoad workout, but I’d know it’d be a fraud. *shrug* Do I wish I had my H2 still? I think it woke the dead in the neighboring cemetery! Seriously! But it does seem to be more ‘accurate’ than the mighty Garmin/Tacx Neo 2T.
If there is any more data that I can generate, I will endeavor to keep my buns on the saddle and not pause time.
I’ve tried to talk a few people out of the 2T, but they are drawn to the mystique of the ‘Best Trainer On The Market’. It’s not, IMO. My plan, when I bought the 2T, was to also buy the H3 and do a ride by ride comparison myself to see which one was more accurate for ‘the way I ride’. But when I tried to order the H3, REI said they were out of stock, but they were actually, reportedly, in trouble with Garmin/Tacx, and Saris for selling their units at a discount. They had stock, but said they were out of stock to stop people buying them. After the sale expired, they mysteriously had stock. *shrug* You have to keep the vendors happy.
At least I can still ride a trainer, and have one to ride. Be safe, and thanks for all you do. You do everyone a favor by being neutral, and through. Thanks.
I hope this doesn’t come off snarky. I had a bad day, up to my arms in sewage, because why not apparently. My plans to ride 40 miles trashed. My wife says I’m addicted. Maybe so. I need a fix…
So, back to the data. I did a threshold ride on TrainerRoad today, and tried to pair my Stages to the MacBook Pro. I have a target rich environment, as everything seemed to want to pair with the stages. When I finally got the Stages to pair, it took the left one first, and I couldn’t reach the power demand, but the next one was the linked one, and again, I seemed to have some issue hitting the demand. I ‘forgot’ the Stages, and apparently TrainerRoad ‘Virtual Power’ kicked in, and I was over the demand again.
I’ll try riding a Zwift workout soon, and see what the data looks like. I’ll try to setup my backup MacBook Pro to get the data. Perhaps it will work better.
That’s a strange looking threshold ride. Most of it looks well below threshold.
Anyway, it looks like you’re spinning the trainer pretty quickly. 109 average cadence at pretty low power outputs in erg mode. What gearing were you using for the above workout?
Does anyone else know what to do if the outer cogs of the cassette are not tight on the hub spindle? I’ve got a SRAM PG-1170 cassette on (since that’s what I use on my bike) and even though the lockring is tight the different cogs on the cassette aren’t. I’ve never seen this sort of thing before. Maybe I should just write it off and buy a Shimano cassette? Seems like a waste of money to buy another one but so is having a trainer where I can’t tighten the cassette properly.
You need to add the 1mm spacer ring before the cassette.
But I did…you mean the wider spacer, right, not the two much smaller ones that (I think) can go behind the hub body?
define “not tight”, does it slide in and out along the hub axle, or does it slide back and forth, in the direction of the chain?
PG-1170 shouldn’t need a spacer, so that might mean the last cog is not on correctly, and is probably askew.
Give Tacx Faqx a try. They have a full rundown on installing the cassette.
install picture.
That install picture is wrong on many cassettes and you’ll still need the 1mm spacer in those instances. If your big cassette (11 or 12 speed) has an indentation on the back you’ll still need the spacer.
Ross is right! I did not need a spacer on my H2, but certainly DID need it on the 2T for the same Ultegra cassette.
One of the most common install issues is apparently skipping a spacer, or using the wrong thickness spacer.
If your derailleur is properly indexed, you shouldn’t need to re-index it on the trainer. If you do, you need to shim the cassette. And if the cogs feel loose, you really need to shim it out. The Tacx image is wrong, and has been since the Neo 2, and possibly the original model.
I think it’s a poorly executed hub interface, as the H2 I had did not require a spacer for the 11 speed cassette.
Oh, and the manual being wrong, and apparently wrong for the previous model too made me a little concerned for the quality and reliability of this ‘most expensive trainer’… *sigh*
Speaking of reliability, anyone have a lead on getting a flywheel puller for the 2T? No one seems to have it in stock. I’m getting to the point where people seem to have issues with noise, and possible contamination of the magnets, so I’d rather be prepared.
To be fair, the Neo is the only true direct drive trainer. It’s harder to fit everything in between the chain stays without things getting tight.
Does that make it better? Each to their own in that regard.
I’m using a Neo2 so can’t speak much to the 2T in particular. My Neo2 has been rock solid over the past year. The adapters that were supplied are all high quality parts as expected.
There’s only one trainer that I’d swap the Neo2 for and that’s the 2T for it’s 12mm boost through axle support.
If you hate your 2T that much you should take it back or sell it. I use my Kickr Core as a very expensive door stop so there’s always that option as well.
Stay safe out there.
It’s not that it’s wrong, it’s that it’s confusing to some people and they don’t understand what it means. Tacx/Garmin is referencing the the hub driver body the cassette is meant to fit on, not the number of gears that the cassette has.
Though, that said, I’m not sure why they use a 1mm spacer, when it really should be a 1.85mm spacer, so the cassette may sit inboard more if using an 8/9/10 cassette.
For those other cassettes, like the Shimano 6700+ series with the indented cassette, the cassette comes with a spacer that needs to be used. That can be viewed as part of the cassette assembly itself, and not separate. It would move with the cassette. If you look at the manual for the Shimano cassette, they include it in the parts description, and come with the packaging.
Some people get confused and ignore the spacer that comes with the cassette package, and actually have the wrong position for the cogs (more inboard). User error, IMO.
Most 11 speed MTB cassettes are designed around the 10 speed hub body and would specifically call for that, and would need the hub spindle spacers to push out the entire assembly in addition to a 1.85mm cassette spacer. Even the 12 Speed Eagle is designed around the 10 speed driver length, and why the XD-R is 1.85mm longer than the XD driver. Coincidentally, the XD-R is the same length as an 11 speed Shimano/SRAM driver body and 1.85mm is the same width you would need for 10 to 11 speed.
Since it’s about the SRAM PG-1170, it’s an 11 speed road cassette made for an 11 speed HG driver. The SRAM MTB 11 speed cassettes are the PG-1130, of which only the 11-42 or bigger fit on 10 speed drivers.
Unless Brian posted the wrong model number, then, yes, that’s a possibility. If it’s the PG-1170, really don’t need one at all.
I can probably put some calipers on the 2T driver body, and compare them to some other hubs I have. I’m sure there’s no significant variance. The 11 speed Shimano/SRAM speed bodies are all standardized, except for Mavic. I wouldn’t say that the driver body is incorrectly sized, it’s just a misunderstanding and user error. I can put a caliper on the PG-1170 as well, if that’ll help, but that shouldn’t really be necessary.
“To be fair, the Neo is the only true direct drive trainer.”
Then I must have been fooled by the H2 I had.
I was spoiled with that H2. The cassette fit the same as on my road bike. It held the power no matter what gear I rode in. DO I hate the 2T? No. I’m disappointed in its performance, and accuracy, but it does work well as a trainer. It is damned quiet compared to the H2 I had. AND it definitely has a higher resistance/simulated climb angle. The H2 was capped at 10% I think? The 2T is a lot steeper. I came to respect it a lot in the first weeks.
I just wish things were simpler. I like the idea of putting the same cassette as my road wheel, and I don’t like playing the ‘spacer game’. The H2 was simple. I threw the same cassette on and it worked. *shrug* I love to ride. Anything that gets in the way of that is not making me happy. Futzing with spacers, and re-indexing because of a compatibility just sucks. I don’t want it. I want to be able to throw my bike on the trainer, and ride, and throw it on the road wheel, and ride. I don’t like drama. I don’t need drama.
I almost bought the Neo 2, because of the inaccuracies of the 2T, and having faced inaccuracies with the 2T, I probably should have gotten a 2, or a different trainer.
But I like to ride, and at some point, I’m riding, so Happy Days…
“Then I must have been fooled by the H2 I had”.
I was referring to the lack of a belt driven flywheel on the Neo range. It’s a unique design.
The hub set up is much the same as the other trainers I’ve used. Not tried a H2 yet but they look to have the same hub arrangement?
Anyway, I’d be pissed too if my flash new trainer was wildly inaccurate out of the box.
What gearing were you using in your above post ( the TR ride)?
Yes, thanks, I did see the Tacx diagram, I tried the method on the right, but couldn’t tighten it. Then the method on the left with the added spacer. Also did look at their videos and FAQ. Posted in the Tacx forum, no response as yet. It was ok for a few weeks, or maybe I just didn’t notice the weird looseness. And by loose, I mean that I can rotate the individual cogs in opposite directions from each other, maybe as much as five degrees? It’s like that cassette doesn’t fit on the body tightly enough. I’ve never seen this kind of behavior before with a cassette mounted on a bike.So any given cog can be rotated slightly back and forth.
Yes, I definitely have a PG-1170. It sounds like you’re saying that I ought not have that extra spacer on there under the cassette. I’ll take things apart and try without it, then.
I remember why I put the spacer under the cassette. Without it, the cassette won’t sit flush against the hub body. The diagram says that an 11-speed cassette doesn’t need the spacer, but it certainly doesn’t seem to work without it.
And with it, I just have the problem of the cogs not sitting tightly in place, and rotating slightly back and forth. I don’t have many ideas here. I’ll try calling Tacx tomorrow, but I’m not overly optimistic.
You will get Garmin, and if you are lucky, you will get the right answer too.
I had to use the spacer with the Ultegra 11-34 cassette. I pointed out that the manual says you don’t need it, and was told, the ‘manual is wrong’.
If the lock ring is on, and the cogs move laterally, parallel to the axle, you need a spacer. I used the wide spacer, and it worked. I have heard that some people need a thinner spacer, and some might need a really slim spacer on top of the thick spacer.
You will have to experiment somewhat if one spacer doesn’t work. Start with the thick spacer. It should definitely space the cassette out far enough, and is probably the right one. Throw your bike on, and go through the gears, and see if it shifts cleanly. If it doesn’t, try adding a thin spacer. If it gets worse, use a thinner spacer alone. The good news is, once you get the spacing right, you are good. It’ll never change.
Ride on!!!
(Note, the spacers go between the largest cog, and the trainer. (Saying that just in case))
Hey Brian. The Tacx Faqx site has some good info regarding cassettes. It’s worth a read.
Your problem with the cogs sounds very similar to what happens if you ride without the cassette tightened/fitted properly (or dead hub bearings). The interface between the hub and cassette gets worn down and both end up destined for the bin.
So I’m confused by this talk of different spacers. My Neo came with four spacers, but only one of them is wide enough to fit over the hub body. I think the other three are for going under the hub? Not sure. So I only have one, and even with it I can rotate the cogs in opposite directions. I don’t think that the cassette came with any spacer to go under it. I hope I don’t need to go hunting around for another one, because it’s not a good time to try to go exploring through stores, even if you can find them open.
It came with spacers, big rings, and ‘end caps’, smaller parts that replace the ends of the stock axle to adapt it to thruaxle, and wider hub widths.
My 2T came with two spacers, as I remember. I didn’t expect to need spacers, as I didn’t on the H2. But installing the cassette, it was loose. The cogs slid across the hub body with the lock ring installed. If that is what’s happening, you need a spacer (the big ring that came with the trainer).
If your bike is ‘QR’, it has a long thin rod, with a lever on one end, and a nut on the other that holds the wheel on, you should be good to go after you install the spacer, and torque it down.
SRAM service manual relating to 1.85mm spacer use.
I see everybody always adresses the lateral play, but you mention you can rotate your cogs.
That could mean one of two (maybe more) things :
1. the splines of the Shimano hub don’t match the inner cutouts of the cogs, which is weird.
The hub should be brand new (some wear after time). So take of the cassette, en slide it over piece by piece en see if the cog rotates over the hub. There should be only one right and possible way to slide on the cogs, aligned with te narrowest spline (maybe stating the obvious)
2. The hub itself rotates, but that seems impossible, since you mention you can rotate every cog in opposite direction from each other.
So I would definately check the inner design of the cogs to the splines of the hub. They shouldn’t move if they are seated properly.
Good luck
Thanks, I have looked through the faq, and the unofficial faq site, without any luck. My bike is thru axle, so I did replace the end caps with the thru axle versions. Didn’t have any real trouble with that. Every FAQ and manual I’ve seen says that with 11-speed cassettes, you don’t need a spacer, but I definitely do. The one that came with it at least prevents the outer cogs from wobbling, but isn’t enough to keep from having them rotate. I tightened the lockring as much as I could (I’ve installed cassettes before) but nothing fixes the problem. If Garmin is no help, I guess I’ll try to go get an Ultegra cassette, I don’t know what else to try.
Yeah, after I bought it, I looked everywhere for tips on setting it up. The manual showed ‘no spacer’, but everyone I talked to said ‘you need a spacer’.
Like I said, if the lock ring is on, and the cogs move, you need a spacer. Judging from SRAM to Shimano, I don’t have the knowledge base to know if the SRAM takes a thicker spacer.
But, yeah, the manual being wrong, and it being wrong for two successive products is rather inexcusable! I can’t believe TACX did that. Apparently they were only after the money? And the inaccuracies. Yeah, disappointed.
The only thing I have to say is I’m glad I bought it on sale, and at least I have a trainer to ride. I wish it was more accurate because I feel I paid for it, and I (hope) eventually Garmin will get the bugs out of the 2T, or the Neo 3 when they deny the 2T ever happened. HaHaHa…
Hi Brian,
You don’t need a new cassette, you can grab a bigger spacer or double up. For 10 speed on an 11 speed hub, it should be 1.85, not 1mm. Tacx supplies 1mm, but all my hubs come with 1.85mm. I do use 1mm, but that’s purely a chainline thing, as I find myself askew on the gearing I prefer (1.85 matches my bike, but 1mm sits better for my gear of choice).
That said, are you sure you have an 11 speed cassette, and not 10 speed? (PG-1170 vs PG-1070).
It sounds like you’re not getting tight enough at all, spacer or not. Regardless, as make shift, put a bigger spacer on or double up. As mentioned, Tacx supplies a 1mm spacer, but the true space for 8/9/10 on 11 is 1.85mm. If you go to any bike shop, they should have this 1.85mm spacer (use it instead of the 1mm Tacx spacer). It should only run a few dollars vs $60+ for a R8000 Ultegra cassette. Call first though, before going. With COVID-19, better to call, and they probably do online order with in store pickup or curbside.
I can probably take apart my setup this weekend, and grab some measurements.
The only difference between a real bike and the trainer is that you’re going to need the chain whip to tighten as well as to remove.
A Q for you. You mentioned your Neo 2T came with 4 spacers? Which 4? I only got 3, which seem to match the manual. One cassette spacer, and 2 hub driver spacers, and then some adapters for 135mm and thru axle variations.
Just saw your other post where you said you definitely have a PG-1170, so that answers that.
Hi Brian,
I measured my PG1170 and Hub.
1) The hub is perfect. From the face of the hub, along the top of a spline, to the base, is 36.75. So, we can stop saying the hub is not to spec. It is.
2) The stack height of my PG1170 is 38.83. So, plenty of room to squish down onto 36.75, no need for a spacer, as expected on a cassette to spec.
So, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you have some possibilities.
1) Count your cogs. I’m betting you have 10 cogs there.
2) So you either have a 10 speed cassette with a PG1170 lockring, but this makes no sense, as it should fit with a spacer, at least with a 1.85mm. I’m not sure with a 1.0mm, but for sure with a 1.85mm spacer it will fit. I do have a PG1070 that I can try to put on, and I do have multitudes of spacers, but I’m not sure I want to make the effort for that. It was hard enough (PITA to verify for an Internet forum) to take things apart to measure.
3) You have an 11 speed cassette, with one cog removed to make it 10 cogs, some people do this, for what reason I don’t know as 10 speed cassettes are cheaper. This will be even shorter than a 10 speed cassette. The stack height here is 34.x, I forget the exact number. You will need a couple of spacers here, but think a 1.85mm + a 1.0mm will work fine.
4) or you have a PG1130, in mountain configuration, that is 11-42 or higher.
Count your cogs, and please confirm. Also, the back of the PG1170 should look like this, I stole this off a YouTube review of the 11-36, but my 11-32 looks the same. I didn’t take a picture, I forgot to, but it doesn’t matter. Mine fits perfectly on the Neo 2T.
Hey Nunya.
Glad to see I’m not the only one who can’t help but pull things apart to figure out what’s going on.
I measured up three different hubs (Kickr/XT wheel/Neo2) and Shimano 11 sp MTB vs Sram 12 speed MTB on Shimano and XD hubs.
Unfortunately, I couldn’t find my good calipers and had to make do with engineers ruler.
I got 36.65mm for both the Kickr and the Tacx hubs. The Kickr hub has a deeper thread internally for the lockring but both fit the larger Eagle lockring to full depth.
This is the weird bit. The Shimano XT 11 speed and the NX Eagle cassettes fit straight onto my XT wheel set and the Kickr. No spacers required. However, the indexing ends up being off on the Kickr.
Both the XT and Eagle cassette will not tighten fully on the Tacx unless I use the 1mm spacer. When I use the 1mm spacer the Eagle 11t cog to outer edge of the axle is 6.65mm. This is the same dimension as on my XD driver wheel set. No adjustment needed for smooth indexing.
It seems there’s something else going on here. Stuffed if I can pick it at first glance.
So you put the lockring on backwards for effect? Nice…
I was told I wouldn’t need a spacer for my Ultegra cassette. Then it didn’t work, so I started on the spacer race, and found one that ‘worked’, but I had to re-index the rear, and it worked. So when I swapped bikes, I tried a wider spacer, and with the new bike, and cassette, things have been good.
So, on the H2, the idea on ‘spacer or not’, was clear. Really quite clear. The instruction I got for the 2T was ‘well, you might need a spacer. Experiment!’, which made me feel uncomfortable. So I was grateful that the thicker spacer actually worked without the drama.
I hate drama. I’ve said that before. I also hate companies that have errors in their documentation that extend to the next product. I mean, come one… Also it would be nice of the damnedable industry tried to be more ‘common’, or ‘stable’. Is it really that hard to play nice? But I’m on a rant… (The H2 needs a spacer with an Ultegra, but not a SRAM 11xx? Why? Who does that help?)
I’m glad the issue was resolved. It didn’t have to be so hard, but I guess…
Cheers everyone. Stay safe, ride hard!!!
It’s interesting that it installs on the Kickr with no spacers. XT wheel set should be road 10 speed (they call it MTB 11, but it’s really dumb, it’s a 8/9/10 speed hub and due to the big dish of a cog, they can arch it backwards over the hub flange). That’s really weird about the Kickr though, I have to think about that, that’s a puzzle and a half. Unfortunately, I don’t have MTB 11 speed stuff, went from MTB 10 to 12 and XD at the same time. The only 11 I have is road. MTB is where I really don’t miss intermediate gears, unlike road where I need to have cadence and tight 1T jumps.
That said, the XT 11 speed and NX Eagle should fit on 8/9/10 speed hubs, and should use a 1.85mm spacer on 11 speed (road) hubs.
I do have a Kickr, but it’s a V1 (circa 2014). I can measure that one. I should pull that one out and use it again, I do miss the high pitched whine, though that might only last 1 ride before I get sick of it. The power measurement is horrible. Thank goodness I always use 1 or 2 extra power meters on the trainer, lol.
Thanks for all the help. Hopefully I can find another spacer tomorrow morning. The piece that I called the fourth spacer or washer is the one labeled T2844-15. And actually….I think I’m supposed to be using that, since I have disc brakes. Not that it will affect the cassette, but shows why it’s good to read the instructions yet again.
OK, so first off, thank god that bike shops are considered essential businesses. Garmin support was no help. The problem was actually that my 11 cog wasn’t locked down. I lugged everything (yes, enormously heavy trainer, good upper body workout there) down to the closest shop to the house. This after I went there in the morning and bought a spacer, which didn’t help. The guy at the shop gave the clue that the smallest cog sometimes didn’t lock into place. Turns out that’s why the cogs turned. But – with or without spacer, I couldn’t fit the cassette into place. After about fifteen minutes of fiddling with it, the fellow at the shop got the PG-1170 tight without _any_ spacer. No idea how. When I asked him, he said “Years of experience”. :)
Thanks one and all. Now to ride.
cool thanks. That was my first response in this thread. :) Your cap was not aligned properly. This happens more frequently than people admit to. It’s just something that happens.
“PG-1170 shouldn’t need a spacer, so that might mean the last cog is not on correctly, and is probably askew.”
I’m glad that’s sorted out! It happens a lot, to be honest. I know I’ve done it when in a rush or not paying attention, and then had to go back and do it again.
Hey Nunya.
Bang on with the XT wheel. It’s the older 8/9/10 speed type and everything just works like it’s supposed to.
The Sram website states that I’m meant to use a spacer on an 11 speed splined hub as in my post above. I couldn’t find a similar reference for Shimano but it makes sense that it would work in the same way.
The main thing that’s nagging me is that I can’t figure out why the XT and NX cassette won’t snug down on the Neo hub (T2805.01 (s) ). The tolerances must be really tight for the Neo hub and Kickr hub to behave differently. Maybe I need to look into the depth of internal thread again.
The crazy thing is that the 1mm spacer seems to work perfectly when swapping between my XD wheels sets and the Neo. 1.85mm would mess with my indexing.
I think it’s safe to say that the extra spacers included with the Neo’s are actually quite useful. Prior to pulling things apart I never really thought much about it and just adjusted indexing to suit.
You learn something new every day!
Cowrob, you had me in tears ( from laughing). ” I hate drama”. ;)
You love a bit of it.
I guess I do. I like a challenge, but when I got the 2T, I had a ride scheduled within 45 minutes, and quickly setup the Neo, and got the bike mounted, got dressed, and hopped on. It was all wrong. I was horrified/disappointed/shocked/pissed…
Then the spacer issue came up, and on a FB group I was on, people started waxing philosophical about what ring to use, and others told me to just re-index my bike. Not a very auspicious start to ‘The most expensive trainer on the market’.
Some drama is good. Some is bad. My first exposure to the 2T was bad drama. I expected better, like an accurate manual. Tacx Facx really helped, and the FB group was brain dead. *sigh*
Again, the H2 seemed so much better executed for the new user. It said no ring, and it worked. No re-indexing, no stacking rings, no drama. Seriously. So, yeah, Neo drama was unexpected, and unnecessary. *shrug*
Hey Cowrob. It’s fair to say that the use of washers and rings has more to do with Shimano and SRAM moving the goalposts constantly. Your H2 just happened to play nice with your setup but might’ve needed fine tuning on another.
I’ve been trying to figure out your wonky data posted above. What gearing are you using?
I’m trying to understand how you can be clocking 45 km/hr virtual speed on the trainer while only registering 132 w average at the cranks. Is it 50/15 or there about? (3.333X109x2.111×60=46km /hr).
Do you get the same issues if you use the small ring at the front?
I might do a good chunk of my workout today in the 34/10 and see what happens. 110 rpm should be doable and the ratio is similar.
I know the Kickr used to go to poo when I used it as a spin bike.
The things we do for fun while social distancing over a long weekend!
I owed TACX Genius smart trainer for few years and I am okay with it except it is getting very noisy especially when it is simulating uphill climbing, and certainly sounds like my TACX trainer tyre getting worn out and have a lot of slippage. After reading this review, I am very interested in the NEO 2T but not sure I should buy now given this product is already 6-7 months old and also NEO 3 may be in the horizon? Any advices?
I can only imagine what a hot mess a ‘Neo 3’ could end up being. I’m glad they aren’t on a yearly release schedule. It seems that there was about 5 years between the Neo 2 and the 2T. Many companies seem to release products with flaws needing to be fixed to make them more accurate/usable, treating early customers like ‘live beta testers’.
Wheel on trainers will always be more drama than a direct attached one.
There are bugs in the 2T that haven’t been fixed yet, and Garmin seems (at least to me with my experiences with their support) to not be interested in fixing them (soon).
It’s too soon to do a Neo 3. WAY to soon. If you have to have a Tacx/Garmin trainer, get a 2T. It’s not perfect, but it’s not a POS either. Check out the H3 too, for an alternative…
Cheers.
Thanks CowRob. I believe TACX first releases NEO in 2015, NEO 2 and NEO 2T in 2018 and 2019. So it is not unreasonable to guess TACX may have something new this year especially after Garmin acquired TACX in 2019. Anyway, I was comparing between Kickr and Neo 2T. I like Kickr as it can pair with Climb and also can have multiple bluetooth connections. But I believe it is a 2018 model and not sure if they will have something new this fall. For Neo 2T, it is probably the latest trainer and I really like its unique “road feel” sensation. The virtual flywheel is also a big plus!
Apart from the attractive price with H3, what else is better than Kickr/Neo 2T?
I started with an H2. It was my first ‘smart trainer’, and it was an eye opener. I also have a Peloton, and many times wished it was able to ‘enforce’ the power demands. The first ride I took on it, I was hooked!
But anyway…
My issues with the 2T are that the power varies so much with the gearing I choose during rides on TrainerRoad. If I ride with lower gearing, on TrainerRoad, the power demand is what I put out, *in the small ring*. If I shift to The Big Ring, the power skates over the demand, and to keep the demand level, I have to radically lower the cadence to, for me, subhuman levels.
I just did a ‘custom workout’ on Zwift, in The Big Ring, and they handle that setup a lot better than TrainerRoad. My power did skate over the demand, but Zwift was actually trying to contain it. It actually tried. TrainerRoad just lets stuff skate. The data shows 20 to 30 watts over demand, nearly continuously. Zwift, not so much. Just don’t stop and let ERG mode stop. Zwift will punish you to get that thing rolling again, and it still wags back and forth quite a bit, which is also weird, but I guess it’s expected.
The H2, was NOISY but it held the demand well. The H3 is supposed to be a lot quieter, and GPLama has said that it’s his ‘favorite trainer’. I wanted to buy both, and do my own comparison, but the sale ended prematurely, and I couldn’t. The 2T isn’t a ‘bad trainer’. It just has issues. Some that have existed since it was born. Yikes.
That is why I thought that a ‘Neo 3’ would be a bag of hurt. Garmin just bought Tacx. Garmin doesn’t have much experience with trainers (to my knowledge), likely haven’t finished digesting the acquisition, and they are going to birth a new version of the Neo? I’ll definitely sit that one out. Let someone else be a beta tester. I had considered getting the Neo 2, just to avoid some of the drama. *shrug*
“Apart from the attractive price with H3, what else is better than Kickr/Neo 2T?”
I own H3 and Neo 2T and a KICKR V1. I had a KICKR V4 (aka 2018) and returned it 3x before I gave up.
H3 is good. Simple, functional. Some people have problems, but mine has been pretty solid, except for a startup belt squeak (not a big deal to me). Power matched very well for me as well, not as good as the Neo 2T, but good nonetheless. I love the flywheel feel. The pedaling form, really nice, with that bigger flywheel. It’s very noticeable, for me. Others may not find it so.
KICKR V4 (maybe the V3 too, can’t recall) is the only one that allows multi-channel bluetooth, so you can connect multiple apps to it via bluetooth simultaneously. It also has support for the Climb, if that’s your interest. I also love the construction. It looks and feels industrial.
Neo 2T, for me, power accuracy and speed of response. It’s dead on quick to adjust to power deviations. I’ve compared it with my Assioma Duo and PowerTap C1, and it’s right there, big or small ring. Big ring has more variation amongst the power meters, which is expected. It is really close though, within 1W @ 190W. The Assioma read the lowest, the C1 the highest, and the Neo 2T was in the middle, for the big ring. The spread highest to lowest was the PowerTap C1 @ 191.08W, Neo 2T @ 190.5W and Assioma Duo @ 189.42W, doing an ERG workout reading and controlling the Neo 2T. This is in 50×15 I believe (middle of cassette).
There will be some power deviation with big ring in all the trainers.
Flywheel trainers take a bit longer to react. H3, I found to be the slowest to ramp up and down, but people prefer it. I like it when I don’t have to do sprint work, but then I have to take it out of ERG for that, as the ramp would stabilize after about 50% of the 10-20 second sprint interval.
KICKR V1 and V4 were very similar as well, but a tad faster.
Neo 2T, it’s a bit faster. I love it. Some people feel it is too abrupt. I’m not one of those, but you have to stay attentive. The other trainers, being slower, allow you to “feel” the sudden rise in resistance and allow you to get on top of the crank, a bit easier. IMO, it’s just a bit faster, not horrendously slow, for ERG transitions.
Best of both worlds, for me, would be the big flywheel feel (startup, changes in resistance, and the “pressure” against the leg at the right time especially when surging hard) of the H3 married to the Neo 2T…but that’s a near impossibility since the 2T has no flywheel.
I don’t know what’s on the horizon for trainers. Only Ray would know, maybe Lama too, but they are probably under NDA.
There were two things that freaked me out about the 2T within days of riding it.
1) The adjustment of demand is actually 2 seconds before the actual change, riding with TrainerRoad. It’s always been like that. At 4:58, the power demand jumps, or drops, according to the program.
2) That ‘on top of it’ thing can be jarring. It wants things NOW! Oh, and the maximum resistance is higher too, so if it wants ‘x’, it jumps, 2 seconds early and it’s NOW! *BANG*, and if the hike, or drop, is large, you are going to either be eating your knees, or pounding your knees. The larger flywheel did ‘cushion’ the changes in demand, and at times quite a bit. Getting it spinning at high demand was a struggle, as you would imagine.
It was interesting, moving to the 2T. The idiosyncrasies of the different trainer brands was something that I didn’t expect as much, which I guess I should have. *shrug*
In some ways I feel the H2 spoiled me. I have over 2,600 miles in on the 2T. It works well. It’s grown on me. It’s quieter so I can hear the drive train better. I had to replace the chain because the H2 apparently hid the noise. I actually hear the squeaking of the SpeedPlay pedal cleats too. (I rode the H2 in The Big Ring, and that accentuated the horrendous noise, people have told me)
Get the 2T. It’s nice. (Oh, one thing is leveling the trainer. The 2T has no real leveling method. If the floor isn’t level, the trainer will rock, or the bike will feel off balance. It can be shimmed, like with magazines, etc)
“1) The adjustment of demand is actually 2 seconds before the actual change, riding with TrainerRoad. It’s always been like that. At 4:58, the power demand jumps, or drops, according to the program.”
That’s a training SW problem, not a problem with the 2T specifically as it can’t predict a change to be sent by the app, just responds to it. The 2T reacts faster. It is probably because TR sends the signal 3 seconds before, as other trainers are just that slow. Zwift is the same way.
TBH, I notice this also with both my KICKR V1, V4, H3, and the 2T. I can feel the resistance let out or increase (I pay close attention and can feel slight variations all throughout a workout). It is that the time for the other trainers to update the power output to change, the 2T has already started changing a second earlier. I definitely notice this during my sprint work, when I’m pushing 4-5x FTP and counting the seconds for it to stop. It happens on all the trainers, just the 2T reports the output the moment it happens, so there seems to be less averaging, I would guess. At the same time, I won’t miss an interval, like I would on the others. By the time they ramp up, on short sprints, the interval is half over, or I change gears and massively overshoot.
And, yeah, if you miss the that start of the interval, and are texting someone when it hits, you’re not going to have to punch out another 50% just to turn those gears. Fortunately, I can then stand and hit it, as I do all my work seated, but it takes a lot out of you. So, I never really mind…or give up and backpedal, lol.
“(Oh, one thing is leveling the trainer. The 2T has no real leveling method. If the floor isn’t level, the trainer will rock, or the bike will feel off balance. It can be shimmed, like with magazines, etc)”
I completely forgot about that, and that is dead on. I have a tilt that I’ve been meaning to fix, but since the 2T flexes side to side a bit, I didn’t mind much, as I don’t sit tilted. The others are rigid.
Thanks Nunya and CowRob. Really good input!! How’s the road feel for the 2T/Kickr? One of the major reasons that I want to switch to a direct drive trainer from my wheel-on trainer is the road feel. I want to train hill climbing, and my current trainer just doesn’t feel realistic especially when it is trying to simulate anything more than 5% climb. I am not sure the Kickr Climb will worth to be invested or it is just a nice to have………
And the ‘change issue’ I didn’t notice with the H2. Really. I had over 800 mile son it. It just seemed to work so much better than the 2T, IMO. What you say makes sense. Getting that huge flywheel to change speed isn’t quick. Having only the H2 for a comparison, based on my limited experience, which I’ve copped to before, it seems off. And yeah, once the 2T jumped quite a large watt demand, and I wasn’t paying attention. It just hammered me with the quick and high demand jump.
If you were referring to the ‘wagging’ I mentioned, it could be the quick power reporting that is ‘wagging’ the power. Again, something, in my limited experience, I didn’t experience prior to the 2T.
So much I wrote off to the 2T being ‘defective’, or ‘flawed’. Hmm…
But the TrainerRoad power issue is real (or imaginary) and reproducible. It gives me higher speeds, and farther distance for those rides. Cheating?
“I want to train hill climbing, and my current trainer just doesn’t feel realistic especially when it is trying to simulate anything more than 5% climb”
They don’t feel like a climb because you can’t get over the fact that you’re still flat, pedaling harder. This is the same, wheel on or direct drive.
The Climb, I would avoid, I’ve heard too many problems about it, and about belt failures. Maybe there would be future revisions, I don’t know. One of my concerns is that it’s narrow and not on a fixed “sled” with the Kickr. When I “sprint” I can get the trainer to bounce and move, slightly, and it does shift a good bit. I’ve considered the Climb in the past, but since I can move the trainer 6 inches when I try a sprint, just using legs and no upper body, I chose not to topple over and would rather have a front wheel on it. YMMV there, but the belt issue is real.
There is no road feel in Zwift ‘workouts’. Also it’s more of a gimmick, and it’s not always spot on. I’ve had it trigger half way through, and also had it not trigger at all. Some rides Ive done, it’s spot on, which is nice, but others, not so much…
I wonder how much of a drag it puts on the power output, but it’s probably a silly thing to think about. It’s not likely to be ‘large’.
It took Zwift a while to get it to work at all, and the first time it triggered for me was pretty cool. I’ve ridden on brick roads and also planked bridges, and it was close. It’s another feature that sets the 2T apart from ‘all the others’. The inconsistency is unfortunate, but it’s just a gimmick.
It’s funny to hear people that want to buy the 2T just for road feel. Like people buying the Kicr for the Climb I suppose…
I avoided the Kickr because so many people had them and were on their nth one, due to failures.
The only problems I have heard about the Climb is that it’s noisy. To me, it’s a gimmick too. I’d rather get the Kickr Bike, and have it all in one package, rather than do the toy looking Climb, based on a main trainer unit with ‘quality issues’.
I agree, the motor in the Neo is a gimmick. I’ve used it on meetups and the like, but largely it’s a “don’t care” for me. It’s nowhere near as harsh as riding over real bricks or planks, but maybe if they can jam your wheel in a road grate and toss you OTB, that might be something interesting to try.
For the Climb, a number of people had the belt break/snap, and it stops working. I think Wahoo will either replace the unit or send a new belt, I can’t remember which.
That’s what I thought on the Climb. It doesn’t look sturdy at all. What about the 2T, as I believe the case is made of hard plastic, when you guys doing the sprint, any concerns?
I haven’t been able to move it. Also, the Hammer series sits offset from the legs a bit, so it’s more unbalanced leaning to the right. I don’t know if reviews talk about that. If I lean to the right to grab something, and I need to stretch, I can tip the trainer, while I’m on it. If you don’t do that or don’t need to do that, then it’s not too big of a concern, but I did tilt it once, and that was a bit jarring. The next time, I just stopped and put feet down to grab stuff.
The 2T is also a good bit larger than the others, the “wings” make it seem like it’s taking more space. It does “seem” a bit more stable. “seem” as I have no way to measure it during use.
It does rock when hammering. If there are some innate issues with balance of either the rider, or the trainer, it could feel ‘sketchy’, but I’ve never tipped it over. I’ve spooked myself twice on it, but it’s been safe. I feel that I’d have to really work hard to tip it over while on it.
Well, it rocks under basic riding too, but it’s gentle rocking. Some have had the plastic legs squeak, and Tacx/Garmin has replaced a few for that reason. Mine, no squeaking (after I replaced the chain on my bike).
Some people like the rocking, and others are unnerved by it. If you can find a dealer that has one on display (so far I’ve seen a lot of them on display at local bikes shops, which is good) so you can try the rocking…
Oh, one other issue some people have experienced: Some disc brake equipped bikes have really close tolerances with the caliper. Some bikes don’t fit at all. The number that don’t fit are really small. The Roubaix I had fits with a scant thin amount of clearance, but it fit.
Cheers…
I have read reviews that mention the rightward tipping issue. Not many, but it’s interesting. It’s hard to tell if it’s just a cranky reviewer, or a real issue.
In my experience, the H2 was SOLID! Like riding a brick. To tip that thing over, you would have to be pushed really hard. The bike Does Not Move. It’s actually so stiff that I once checked my dropouts, and they had tweaked slightly under my riding pressure. I fixed it, and tightened the skewer a little bit more. Using thruaxle, I had no issues.
The 2T, aside from the caliper clearance potential, does rock, as I said earlier. Opening the skewer and resetting the dropouts every so often would be a great idea. I’ve also have had no issues with thruaxle on the 2T
On the space issue: I kept tripping on the legs of the H2. I get on/off on the left side, and it’s not well lit, and I would either step on the legs, or actually trip on them (they stick out FAR!). The 2T puts those legs (wings) farther back. No issues. I like the ‘wings’. I wish there was a leveling adjustment, but *shrug* it works.
Hope I’ve helped…
Cheers…
Wow! I have had a problem with my back, on the right side. So I checked everything, and found the bike, in the trainer was leaning to the left. So I opened a case with Garmin, and showed them the blocks I used to level the Neo 2T trainer. They processed a replacement, under warranty. I had had a small piece of blue plastic show up under the Neo just before the replacement was processed.
I have the replacement Neo, and while cleaning the old one, found where the plastic came from, and several other cracks, and a snag in the plastic. I was, and am shocked! I weigh, on the average, less than 200 lbs, usually in the 195 range, so I doubt it’s that I’m too heavy. The bike is a Specialized Roubaix, so it’s not a ‘weird’ bike. And the floor is level. There was some damage to the Styrofoam in the bottom of the original box, and the replacement packaging uses a denser type of plastic coated Styrofoam, so maybe they ‘fixed’ the issue with better packaging.
I’m sharing this in case others might have early (November-ish) units, and might want to check theirs too. Has anyone else reported cracking like these cracks?
I’ll try to post all the images. They appear, mostly, to be on mold lines, although one is midspan. They are all in the blue plastic in the ‘legs’.
If you have one, check the underside of the legs?
Ride on! Ride safe!
Image 2.
Image 3.
Image 4.
Image 5.
Image 6.
Other than this issue, and the power issues which I’ve gotten used to, this trainer is pretty amazing. Simulating a 25% grade? YIKES! 2,000 watt capability? YOW!!!
It’s breaking me! :-D
One ride in on the replacement, and it’s actually quieter. Nice…
Having been using a 2018 model or the Wahoo Kicker for 2+ years, i’m interested in the output comparisson – for the life of me the NeoT2 is a tougher ride… thoughts??
Hello all, got a Neo 2 t in December 2019 and had no issues until a couple of weeks ago when it developed a creak when lateral movement was applied I got in touch with Garmin but as yet haven’t received a reply. Has anyone else had similar problems and found a fix . Also I’ve been reading a lot about overheating problems and folk have been using auxiliary fans it seem a bit extreme for such an expensive piece of kit
Mine creaks too. Some people have tried silicone spray on the latches. The joke on a FB group was to turn up the music. My original 2T actually had cracked plastic on the blue bottom and was quite noisy, but I think (HOPE!) that was an aberration. I intend on checking it over when I shampoo my bike next. But, check the easy stuff first, like the axle, or quick release. Take you bike off and make sure the end caps are tight. My first trainer, an H2, creaked and popped a lot. I found out the qr had slipped and the end caps had loosened, so my bike was actually crooked on it.
Yeah, my pictures are just above. I was shocked. And I’m not that heavy. Hmm…
Ok, thanks for the tips I’ll check the bike over and put a little silicone on the leg hinges
I looked mine over, and on the back catch, the plastic part from the trainer part that has fingers half way down the sides of the latch was popped out about a quarter of an inch. Yikes. I lifted the Neo up, and popped that plastic back in. Again, I’m not too heavy, according to Tacx/Garmin. Maybe I ride too hard? I’ll be checking the trainer over more thoroughly RSN…
Here is the area that had the plastic piece popped up. I did pop the piece back down, and NO CREAKING! I was surprised. No noise, aside from the cassette, etc.
The orange line shows the trainer end of the hinge, and at the gap on that outlined piece to the right was where I saw that the piece had popped out. Pushing on those narrow ‘fingers’, while lifting up the ‘foot’ on that side, I was able to pop them back in. I doubt that it would have been as easy to pop it back in if I didn’t lift it off the mat. But I will keep an eye on it, for sure. Apparently I lean more one side than the other? *shrug*
And I thought ‘pedal dynamics’ was supposed to be ‘coming soon’ to the 2T. Did it happen? How do we see that data?
Cheers!
Hello,
I bought a Neo2 in november 2019. placed my old bike (quick release) on it and I’m very happy with it.
Now i bought a new bike (Orbea Orca OMX) which comes with Mavic’s double-threaded P1.0 thru axle.
Tacx only supports 1.0/1.5/1.75 threads for thru-axle. Any idea’s how to overcome this?
Emailed to tacx but no response.
Thanks,
Would this guy be able to help?
link to robertaxleproject.com
Is there a weight limit for the Neo 2T? I’ve cracked another one. The light blue part around the foot on one side is cracked at the point closest to the floor. I’m shocked this one is cracked too. What’s going on?
It’s on a rubber ‘trainer mat’, but I’d assume that is expected. I weigh 195, and have a Roubaix mounted on it. I’m not a high power rider either. Is it common to have the frame crack? This is going to be bad when the warranty runs out and the frame self destructs.
Looking for guidance. Is this common? Should I get a replacement from Tacx/Garmin and sell it for a different brand?
News from Garmin support. They are replacing the plastic on the underside of the 2T. I’m concerned that the stresses on my 2T have spread across the rest of the trainer. I’m having hinge parts popping up, and loud squeaking from one hinge in particular.
My wife is freaking out thinking that the Neo is going to break and I’ll be injured. I have to say I’m growing more concerned too. She wants me on a different trainer. I had 3,400 miles on the first 2T, and have over 2,000 on this second one, and seem to be having more hinge problems that with the first one. So I asked if they would replace this trainer, again, and I promise to sell it so I can get out of this and be a pain in the butt for another company.
“The engineering team has made some changes to the plastic used for that part and we will have replacements of just that plastic piece available soon. Once they are available, I’ll get an order set up to send you out replacements for your trainer.”
I wonder if all 2T owners will be notified of this change. Kudos for them admitting there is a problem. I’m sad that I seem to be the one, or one of the ‘problem owners’ that experienced this issue. I’m not sorry that I bought the Neo 2T. It is a great trainer, it’s just not engineered for the long haul when connected to my bike, apparently. I can see this if I was a clydesdale, but I’m not.
It would seem that the trainer allows a ‘sway’ back and forth, and was under engineered to actually support that motion in the long term. Was the Neo 2 more durable? If so, then was this a change in the manufacture of the 2T due to a decision from the new owner?
I’m just trying to figure out ‘Why me?’. And wonder how many other people have the same cracking, and just don’t know it.
Hi Ray,
I’m owning a Neo 2T since more than a year. I have latest FW but still have a power offset of approx 20-25 watts comparing to Vector3 (that were consistent with Vector2). Is there really no way to offset the power / recalibrate? Garmin support says it’s normal power reading is different than with my pedals, but here we’re not talking about 2-3watts…
Thanks a lot for the reviews!
Philip
Nobody seems to mention the stress these trainers put on your bike. Unlike a bike that can move back and forth as you pedal a frame fixed into the trainer can’t. I broke welds on my steel bike and I know its just a matter of time before my carbon frame fractures too.
And try as I may standing up still feels unstable and awkward.
Breaking welds? Um…
The ‘new’ trainer I got does not allow nearly as much movement as the first one I owned, that ended up self-destructing. I never had any issues with my carbon bike frame. From my experience, if you are breaking welds on a steel frame, that’s just bizarre. Are you exaggerating the sway from side to side?
The only concern I have with the ‘new’ 2T is the spacer they added to the mix to stop scrubbing the brake caliper as it seems to spread the dropouts out a little more than ‘normal’, and that concerns me a little.
But so far as I know, no bike manufacturer has come out, aside from Canyon, and said ‘do not use out bikes on trainers’, and I believe that Canyon not has okayed people using their bikes on trainers.
The first 2T I had really allowed a lot of sway from side to side, and the plastic on the bottom really wasn’t able to sustain that movement. The pictures are here somewhere, and I was horrified at the destruction, but both bikes I used on that trainer had zero damage from being mounted on any of the three that I had.
I’d wonder if it’s a substandard bike frame, over weight issues, or deliberately accentuating the movement. It could be that a steel frame might me more susceptible to damage of that type, but steel frames are usually known for being ‘nuke proof’.
Your experience is outside of mine. Sorry. Wow…
Standing hasn’t been a huge issue for me, BTW. It requires a bit of core strength, just like riding outside, unless you are exaggerating the swaying motion. I couldn’t ever get to the point I felt comfortable standing on rollers, but on the latest 2T, it feels fine. (I’ve felt less stable on the Kickr Bike than the 2T)
After riding this morning, watching the bike sway back and forth on the Neo 2T, I had a flashback to the first one I owned.
That first Neo swayed a bit when I got it. I had heard that they sway, so I thought nothing of it. I never really got out of the saddle on the Peloton because I usually banged my knees on their handle bars, so standing on the Neo wasn’t a goal, but as I kept riding it, the sway, and insecurity thinking of standing grew. Eventually I also noticed that the bike seemed to list to the left.
It was after a piece shot out of the bottom of the Neo that I grew concerned enough to take the bike off, flip it over and saw the damage. The bottom was destroyed. Cracks everywhere, and the piece that shot out exposed a thick folded metal part of the Neo substructure.
My recollection is that the sway got progressively worse over time, and with the piece flying out, something finally gave, forcing me to look at the bottom. The replacement seemed to sway a bit too, and after a few months it too developed cracks in the base plastic. (And by sway, I mean felt ‘loose’, like it wanted to sway side to side a lot)
This last one does seem stiffer, as I’ve said, and I have tried to not over exaggerate the swaying motion fearing that it could start cracking too. So far, and I’ve checked it twice, it hasn’t developed any cracks.
So, is the Neo capable of breaking a steel bike? From my experience, I’d have to say unlikely. It would seem that the plastic would break far before steel bike dropout welds would break.
However, consciously or unconsciously accentuating the sway could put stresses on any bike mounted on any trainer.
So if you are getting that much sway, you should look at the bottom of the Neo, especially if it seems the sway has gotten worse over time.
Good luck…