(**Update: The Tacx NEO has been superseded by the Tacx Neo 2T. Check out that link for the latest In-Depth Review on the Smart Trainer**)
Over the past few weeks Tacx has released two new trainers, the Tacx NEO and the Tacx Genius Smart. While both of these trainers have similar technical capabilities, the actual hardware aspects of them are dramatically different. One (the Genius Smart) looks like most traditional trainers that Tacx has built prior, and has similar specs. Meanwhile, the Tacx NEO is unlike anything that Tacx has previously done. It goes in the direction of direct drive (versus a rear wheel), while also claiming to be virtually silent.
But is it really silent? And at $1,599/€1,399 is it worth the substantial premium over other trainers on the market, including offerings from Tacx themselves? This post is a first look at everything you might need to know to make that decision. It’s not a full in-depth review, as I just haven’t had enough time yet on the final production unit to make that determination and to be able to have really dug into every last detail – so do keep that in mind.
The Executive Overview:
Short on time? No problem – here’s the low-down…with a tiny bit of relevant history. Tacx has effectively gone for gold over the last year when it comes to trainers. They started their train last year at Eurobike (one year ago) with the release of the Smart Trainer series. This was really their first attempt at getting away from locked in software and hardware. That line-up included broadcasting on both open ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart channels of power, speed, and cadence. They did this not just at the higher end products, but rather starting at the cheaper Satori Smart unit, costing $469.
Next, fast forward to this June when Tacx became the first to announce and (in the same day) implement the ANT+ FE-C trainer control protocol. This allowed 3rd party apps to fully control the Tacx line using ANT+. Within days the vast majority of ANT+ capable trainer apps announced adoption too. Then, followed the rest of the higher end trainer industry – now with Bkool, Elite, and Wahoo.
Where we get to now is the Tacx NEO. Previous to this Tacx had higher end trainers, but they never really felt higher end. They just felt…cumbersome. They relied upon software from the company that had a history of being buggy (albeit has improved over the last 12-18 months). With the NEO though, they’ve made something that’s anything but cumbersome. A beast perhaps, but a really pretty looking beast. And one that feels more like the road than any past Tacx trainers.
The NEO weighs in at 48lbs/21kg, the heaviest trainer that I’m aware of to date. With that weight also comes features; it’s ANT+ FE-C capable and then also broadcasts on ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart for Speed, Power, and Cadence. This means it’ll work with any apps or devices that are compliant with those standards.
What differentiates the NEO though from something like the Wahoo KICKR are two main aspects: Downhill drive, and noise. Or rather, lack thereof. First, the noise from the unit is pretty close to silent. At least the NEO itself – your bike is still going to make some noise, namely the chain.
Then you’ve got downhill drive – this means the unit will actually simulate downhill sections more accurately than a trainer that will just coast to a stop when you stop pedaling going ‘downhill’. This same functionality is also found on their new Tacx Genius Smart. Of course, it’s not quite perfect – but it’s better than instantly stopping.
Now, all of this goodness does come at a price. Literally – some $1,600USD (or €1,400). That’s super pricey for a trainer, and about $500 more than the Wahoo KICKR is today (depending on cassette version that’s included). And the Tacx NEO doesn’t even include a cassette, so that’ll set you back another $50-70USD (for a basic Ultegra variant).
There are also some short-term app compatibility differences, where the KICKR has the edge in most cases (though not all), that I discuss later in the post. I think the road feel is largely the same, though some with more refined trainer palates might have different opinions. So really, the main thing you’re going to want to weigh is how valuable the noise aspect is to you. Do you need silence? Or is your standard trainer noise levels acceptable?
Availability for the NEO will be roughly mid to late September for the European markets, and the US following about 4-6 weeks later in mid-late October. The reason for the difference is simple: The trainer is made in the Netherlands (Europe) and thus it takes about a month for the shipping containers to make it to the US via boat.
Inside the Box:
I picked up one of the first production units from the Tacx folks while at Eurobike last week. Actually, production unit #6 to be precise. Like any other product I test, it’ll eventually go back to them. I ended up unboxing it at the DCR Eurobike RV, simply because that’s what I had available. But since it had silly-few parts, I actually put it back together nicely and unboxed it again in the DCR Cave – so I’ll give you those pictures since they a little less redneck.
Thus, this unit comes in this well structured box. I found it travels reasonably well. First, I had to drag the thing across the massive Eurobike show floor. Then, we actually chucked it over an 8’ tall fence (seriously, we looked highly sketchy) since it was less work than going all the way around the perimeter. Then I hauled it across down the road a few hundred more meters. Then it bumped around the RV for a long weekend, before I did another fiasco of a dance getting it a thousand more kilometers on the train/uber/etc back home. And yet, it still looks pretty.
Once you remove the box you’ll see the unit folded up just like one of those space movie fighter jets:
There’s also a small pile of boxed parts, which include the power adapter, manual, trainer skewer, and then some cassette end caps.
The power supply is dual voltage, so you can use it anywhere in the world.
To complete your install, you’ll first just unfold the wings down. As you do so you’ll see it’ll change from red to blue, indicating they’re locked in place. Little buttons on the backside allow you to fold it back up.
Then, you’ll go find a cassette for the unit and install it like installing any other bike cassette. This piece is a bit of a pain in the ass, because most consumers won’t have the right tools to do this. And because it’s yet one more thing you need to buy. I’d really like to see Tacx offer models with the cassettes included for a tiny bit more.
Once the cassette is installed you’ll slide through the included skewer. Then, you’ll go ahead and plug it into a wall:
With that, you’re ready to ride.
Features & Functionality:
With setup complete we’ll walk through some basic features, first on the hardware side and then on the software side. You’ll have noticed that the unit sits up off the ground in the center. It’s kinda neat – and feels like it’s built like a tank. So despite effectively ‘hovering’ in the middle, I’ve got no concerns of breakage.
As you’ll have noticed, there’s no rear wheel here. This is a direct drive trainer, which means that you remove your rear wheel on your bike to attach to the trainer. This reduces wear and tear on your bike’s wheel, as well as virtually eliminates slippage issues that can sometimes happen at steep grades on conventional trainers.
However the downside to this is that it can be a bit finicky to connect the bike to the trainer, especially if you have a bike (such as my triathlon bike) that has rear-facing dropouts. Hardly impossible or difficult, but like the KICKR it can be a bit cumbersome at times. In general though, most folks would agree that direct drive trainers are usually preferred, but especially for harder efforts.
Next, at the front of the trainer there’s actually a light system that illuminates below the bike. This changes based on the intensity that you’re putting out.
Blue for less intensity, red for lots of power (and purple somewhere in the middle). It’s perhaps a bit cheesy, but it’s also kinda sorta really geeky cool.
Next, on the side of the trainer it has three lights showing you the state of three different features: ANT+, Bluetooth Smart, and whether it’s got power.
When you establish a Bluetooth Smart connection, the BLE light should illuminate. Whereas ANT+ is always broadcasting, so that’s sorta always on. And of course, if you don’t have power connected, you won’t get that turned on. You can actually use the trainer without power.
Now you’ll notice there’s no level or other way to manually control resistance – that all requires software and an app of some sort. That app could be a phone app, a desktop app, or even a bike computer like the Garmin Edge 520.
The Tacx NEO supports trainer control in one of three ways:
ANT+ FE-C: This is the ANT+ Fitness Equipment Control protocol, and is the new standard for the way ANT+ devices can control fitness equipment, namely trainers. Read up on that here. This is mainly for 3rd party apps and devices to control the trainer. You’ll see this mostly leveraged in desktop apps, some Android apps, and then some hardware devices like the Garmin Edge lineup.
Bluetooth Smart: This enables the trainer to be controlled using Bluetooth Smart. Today this isn’t yet open to 3rd parties widely, so most of this is to allow the native Tacx applications to talk to the trainer directly, mainly from iOS and Android mobile devices. Down the road, 3rd parties will start having access to this too (but there isn’t an open/agreed upon standard yet there for trainer control).
Tacx Existing Private-ANT Control: This is for existing Tacx applications to control the device, such as their Tacx Training Suite (TTS). That suite costs extra money though, so it’s not really something I’m going to focus on here.
All of the above methods are actually supported on all Tacx ‘Smart’ series trainers (except the Satori, since it doesn’t allow electronic control). Now when it comes broadcasting your information, that’s also accomplished via a few different methods:
ANT+ Speed, Power, and Cadence: The unit will broadcast your speed, power, and cadence as both a combined and separate channel for compatible devices to read and record. Devices include the entire Garmin lineup, PowerTap products, Suunto Ambit2 series, and many other ANT+ compatible devices. The appeal here is that you can record data onto devices you already have.
Bluetooth Smart Speed, Power, and Cadence: Just like ANT+, but with Bluetooth Smart instead. This makes it easy to connect devices from Polar, Suunto (Ambit3), and many iOS & Android apps that support Bluetooth Smart connectivity. Note that there can be some kinks still here due to the industry still settling a bit – especially with BLE power meters, but thus far things look pretty good on the Tacx front.
Tacx Existing Private-ANT: Like before, Tacx also broadcasts to its desktop apps using a different channel. This is mostly because those apps aren’t yet fully converted to ANT+ FE-C, but I suspect in time you’ll see that. If you aren’t using these Tacx desktop apps, this won’t really matter.
Again, the appeal to the above three options is that it basically completely covers you for any modern app/device you’ll use to connect to the Tacx Smart Trainers (i.e. the NEO). Plus, they’re totally open and easy for 3rd parties to support.
At this point you may wonder how this differs from something like the Wahoo KICKR. In short, it’s not much different. The one item of note is that the KICKR doesn’t communicate yet on ANT+ FE-C, but rather a fairly similar version that they’ve had for years (before ANT+ FE-C was released). It doesn’t matter yet much for 3rd party apps because virtually all of them support the KICKR using the Wahoo ANT variant, but it does matter for products like the Garmin Edge 520/1000, which only supports ANT+ FE-C and not the Wahoo variant.
Speaking of control, let’s talk about some of the basics. First is controlling the unit. By default you can just use some of the basic (free) Tacx apps, available on iOS or Android. For example, here’s their phone iOS app, which allows you basic power and resistance control, by setting the slope and power levels. While their iPad app expands that and allows purchasing videos at a reasonable price (about $10 per video), as well as a deeper interval/workout creator. Not too shabby.
But I really think the strength of the Tacx Smart trainer lineup (and any other trainers that embrace openness) is the 3rd party app compatibility. Out of the box it works with Zwift. It works with TrainerRoad, and it works with the Edge 520. And for that matter, any other app that’s implemented the ANT+ FE-C.
Astute followers will remember last week when I did a live Zwift session on Periscope for about 20 minutes at night during Eurobike from the DCR RV. In fact, you can even do this without any power at all to the trainer.
But I needn’t be in a parking lot to do that, Zwift connects right up instantly as long as you have an ANT+ USB stick plugged into your computer:
And TrainerRoad does much the same, again, just needing an ANT+ USB stick for the PC version, or the ANT+ adapter for the iOS platform.
With FE-C support on the Garmin Edge 520 (and soon the Edge 1000), you can also use that to control the trainer. During both sound test videos that I did, I used the Garmin Edge 520 to control the trainer directly from the head unit.
This allows you to do anything from re-riding a ride you’ve done outdoors, a ride you’ve downloaded, or just setting a wattage to follow a specific structured workout.
Now the Bluetooth Smart 3rd party app side, which would be leveraged by apps such as those on iOS or Android is a bit less clear. Major 3rd party trainer app developers have been working with Tacx to get support covered, and Tacx says they’re working on getting something more formal in place as well. But neither have firmly put a date on things.
I suspect the reason is that there isn’t yet an official Bluetooth Smart control standard for trainers. Wahoo does it one way, PowerTap another, and Tacx yet something else. Today, apps like Kinomap and Trainer Road simply work with these manufacturers to bake-in support for each trainer company’s variants. I expect to see that occur here as well, and find it hard to believe that won’t be in place prior to shipping units to consumers.
(Just to be really clear here, you can still use Bluetooth Smart to control the trainer with the default Tacx apps. And, you can use Bluetooth Smart to connect to the trainer and read power/speed/cadence from any 3rd party app today. It’s only control via Bluetooth Smart by 3rd party apps that’s lacking today.)
So what about trainer feel? Well the unit feels cleaner and more smooth than any other past Tacx trainer I’ve used (and I’ve got a boatload of them). Because there’s no rear wheel, there’s no slippage. Plus, the unit will simulate descents. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than nothing as the rear ‘wheel’ won’t just stop when you stop pedaling. This is obviously most notable when descending down steeper hills, such as on a real course video or on Zwift.
It feels as close to riding on a road as other products aimed at replicating that (Wahoo KICKR, Elite Real Turbo Muin, Lemond Revolution). I’m not sure I’d declare one a winner over the other. I think one minor thing the NEO has going for it though is a slight bit more lateral movement than the others. You can actually just tilt it a tiny bit side to side (perhaps 1cm), whereas the KICKR is more locked down.
This allows you a little bit more realistic feel when sprinting or climbing, as the bike sways that little bit. But I wouldn’t really let that be a deciding factor. It’s still not riding outside. There’s no wind in your hair, nor squirrels to dodge. Perhaps I’m a bit more cynical there when folks talk about true road feel on trainers, as for me…it’s still a trainer. Just, a really nice trainer (albeit one that can sorta simulate downhill).
Noise, Weight, and Size:
Next we’ll look at the noise. There’s of course immense interest in this, given the claims of near silence of the trainer. Sure, Tacx produced an emotional ad showing you out in cow fields – complete with an elegant British voice to make it sound smarter and lots of fancy manufacturing imagery. But at the end of the day – is it really silent?
Well, mostly.
About the only thing you’re going to hear on the trainer is your bike parts moving and a very slight electronic hum. For your bike, the chain and its interaction with your front chainring and rear cassette on the trainer will make noise. Not much, and not enough to be heard in the apartment next door.
But rather than try to explain it in text, I’ve put together two videos showing it. The first is a sound comparison against the Wahoo KICKR – simply because that’s what most folks are interested in. In this video I’m in about as non-noise friendly environment as I can think of. No trainer mats, no carpeting, just the echo-chamber of the DCR Cave:
Next, we shift over to the DCR Eurobike RV rental, where I filmed this inside to again cover noise and volumes:
As you can see – it’s pretty darn quiet. It’d be hard to be upset with those volume levels.
About the only thing you could potentially be upset about is the weight. It’s a beast. It tops in at 48 pounds (22 kilograms). You really don’t want to be moving this thing very far very often.
It’s a bit awkward to move because it lacks a handle like the KICKR has. Though once you get the right hold on it, it’s not too bad for short trips:
Next, there’s the size. The unit has precisely two positions: Folded and unfolded. The clasps keep it firmly locked in either position, so there’s no worries about snapping your fingers in the unit. Here’s the folded up position:
And here’s the unfolded (trainer mode) position:
And here’s a nifty animated GIF of everything:
Changing the position is pretty easy and only takes a few seconds. Finally, to compare it against the Wahoo KICKR in size, you’ll see that it dwarfs it. Which is quite an accomplishment, since the Wahoo KICKR always felt kinda big previously (in a good way). Now it looks sorta tiny.
Now of course one of the things with trainers is that weight and materials are important to both stability and long term reliability. I can’t at this point speak to how well it’ll hold up in 5 or 8 years. But it (like the KICKR) is built like a tank. It’s built to take a beating. Which is what you want. You don’t want a tipsy trainer, so you want something that can have a wide base (even if it folds up like the NEO and KICKR). Similarly, you don’t want something with cheap materials that will break after years of placing your bike on and off (and the usual banging that comes with it). So you want to be leery of thinner plastics or moving parts made out of thin plastic (i.e. some levers). I’m not seeing any obvious breakpoints at this stage with the NEO.
Comparing the Tacx NEO:
As you can see above, the Tacx lineup of Smart branded trainers has certainly grown (though, it’s got nothing on the quantity of 16 trainers that Elite has in their 2015-2016 lineup). But I think Tacx has done a better job at creating products at different price points. Here’s the basic levels – note that all of these trainers broadcast in dual ANT+/Bluetooth Smart:
Tacx Satori Smart ($469): Basic trainer that has manual lever to control resistance, but still broadcasts ANT+/BLE and can be calibrated for accuracy.
Tacx Vortex Smart ($629): Least expensive trainer they offer that includes electronic resistance control, and support of ANT+ FE-C (plus the same ANT+/BLE broadcasting).
Tacx Bushido Smart ($959): Same as Vortex, except that it can push a quite a bit more watts and a steeper incline and doesn’t require a power cable, it’s self powered by your pedaling
Tacx Genius Smart ($1,099): Can pump out more resistance again, but most importantly is able to drive the wheel forward to simulate downhill descents on the trainer.
Tacx NEO ($1,599USD): Their top of the line direct drive trainer, the only one they have that you remove the rear wheel. Highest levels of resistance offered by them.
Now I’m sure if you read a bunch of marketing materials they’ll sell you on slight resistance/max wattage levels of each trainer. But realistically you’re not going to need that. Unless you’re pumping out 1,000w+ on a regular basis, it’s just not likely to matter. If you are pumping out 1,000w – then you already know that. The incline differences can matter if you’re replicating Alpe d’Huez on a regular basis (for slippage), but otherwise you’ll likely not often notice.
In many ways I feel like aside from the NEO, the sweet spot in the Tacx lineup is at the Satori/Vortex levels. If you don’t need trainer control – the Satori is an excellent value. Whereas if you want trainer control, the Vortex is very solid and well priced. I don’t find all that much value in not having to plug in my trainer, nor do I find a ton of value in simulating downhill sections. But that may be because much of my trainer time is with wattage-focused workouts. Perhaps as I do more and more Zwift sessions that’d change.
So what about comparing it to the Wahoo KICKR or the Elite Real Turbo Muin? Well, that’s tricky. The KICKR and Elite Turbo Muin are roughly in the same ballpark price-wise, in the $1,100-$1,200 range. Whereas the Tacx NEO is at $1,600USD. Note that Euro prices are a bit different, so keep that in mind – but generally the Tacx NEO is more competitively priced in Europe to the Elite units.
The biggest short-term challenge the NEO has is 3rd party iOS apps (without adapters). They haven’t yet published a way for those apps to talk to the NEO, whereas Wahoo has. And there’s 20+ apps today that support the KICKR, many on iOS. You can see my massive trainer app post from last year. Long term though, I think both Tacx and Elite will offer ways for apps to add support for Bluetooth Smart control, it’s just that’ll lag behind the KICKR which already has apps using it.
When it comes to the Elite Turbo Muin, it’s sorta in the same camp as the NEO for apps. Both have FE-C, so you’ll see all of the FE-C apps support both at the same time (i.e. Zwift, TrainerRoad, Kinomap, and others already). That list of ANT+ FE-C apps will only grow over the next few weeks. I’d be blown away if there’s any apps not supporting it by October, given the number of trainers that’ll support it.
So then it really comes down to noise. How much do you want near-silence? Is it worth $500? That’s up to you to decide (or perhaps, more accurately – your house mates and neighbors).
Frequently Asked Questions:
Here’s a round-up of what I expect will be frequently asked questions. I’ll update/add as I see repeat questions.
How much does it cost, and when it’s available?
The trainer is priced at $1,599USD, and €1,399. This does not include the cost of a cassette, which you’ll need to get elsewhere. Availability is planned for later this month (September) for Europe, and about 4-6 weeks later for North America. The delay in timelines is due to the product being shipped (via boat) from Europe to the US.
What is the weight of the unit?
48 pounds, or 22 kilograms.
What does power accuracy look like on the Tacx NEO?
I’m working to collect all that data, but it’s going to take a few more rides. After getting back to the DCR studio things look good thus far based on just glancing at multiple units, but I haven’t dug into the power files yet and most of the time I wasn’t recording all units yet at once. Expect to see me update this post with more data soon. It’ll include multiple power meters to better understand how things line up. Look for that by early next week.
Meanwhile, Tacx is initially claiming 2% accuracy, but is working to increase that claim to a higher accuracy level with 3rd party validation/testing.
Do you recommend the Tacx NEO or Wahoo KICKR?
I think it’s still too soon there, but see my comments in the previous section on things that might help you decide between them.
Which Garmin units can control the Tacx Smart trainers via ANT+ FE-C?
Today it’s the Edge 520, but Garmin has stated the Edge 1000 will get the update as well. However, the Edge 510 & Edge 810 will not be updated for ANT+ FE-C control. No other devices have been announced either.
So wait, are you saying my Garmin can’t connect to the Tacx NEO?
No, that’s NOT what I’m saying. Rather, only the Edge 520 & Edge 1000 can control it. All other Garmin devices can READ the data from it. So for example, the Edge 510 & Edge 810 can pair to the Tacx NEO’s ANT+ power/cadence/speed streams and display and record that data, just like any other ANT+ sensor.
What apps can control the Tacx NEO?
Any app that supports the ANT+ FE-C. Down the road, it sounds like Tacx will be working with 3rd party apps to get Bluetooth Smart control as well, but that’s not yet here today. You can check out my massive trainer app guide here from last year. I’ll be updating that later this fall.
To be clear, the apps made by Tacx today for iOS/Android can control the units directly using Bluetooth Smart.
What the heck is the Tacx “Upgrade Smart”? And should I buy it?
The Tacx ‘Upgrade Smart’ is basically just a bundle they’ve created with the TTS4 desktop suite (Windows), a small handlebar controller, and then an ANT+ USB adapter. The handlebar controller is specifically for the Tacx desktop suite, not 3rd party apps. The TTS4 software includes a more advanced interval function, 3D worlds, Google Earth option (with more licenses), and the ability to buy videos.
Now normally at €180, I’d so no, it’s not worth it. But for buyers of the Tacx NEO Smart, it’s discounted down to €80 – which makes it slightly more interesting. I’m not a huge fan of the desktop suite in general, but at that price you’re also getting the ANT+ USB adapter and wireless remote. So essentially you’re software cost is in the €30-40 range. If you already have a USB stick though, it’s of less value.
After you get the trainer, look at 3rd party app options first. Then go from there. While the Tacx software suite has improved considerably over the years, I think there’s some solid 3rd party options out there. If those apps don’t fill the gap, then look at Tacx TTS software.
When will an in-depth review be out?
I’m not sure exactly. Likely early to mid October is a safe bet. With full weeks of Interbike and the ANT+ Symposium between now and then, along with every other week containing work travel, it’s going to be challenging to get as much trainer time as I’d like. Still, I’ll be answering questions as I go along here in the comments. So there shouldn’t be really any question as to my thoughts on the unit.
What cassettes is it compatible with?
You can use Shimano, SRAM, and Campagnolo. Both 10 & 11 speed.
How does the trainer work when there’s no power connected?
Exactly like the Bushido Smart – which is to say that you power the electronic components of the trainer. So you can be setup in the middle of the cow pastures in their add and pedal away just fine, even controlling the resistance with your mobile phone.
How do you calibrate the trainer?
Interestingly – it doesn’t actually support any calibration feature (unlike all their past trainers). It remains to be seen how over time that’ll work. The theory here being that there’s no moving parts and thus nothing to get out of alignment, nor to warm-up such as a fluid trainer.
Is there a ride weight limit on NEO?
Yes, 125 kilograms /275 pounds.
What is the max resistance power and incline/decline?
On the NEO it’s 2,200w and 25% incline. Meanwhile it can simulate 5% declines (downhill).
Where’s the Tacx NEO built?
It’s built fully in the Netherlands. It’s a small European country that has taken cycling to a potentially unhealthy national addiction and cult-like level. But because they’re usually pretty polite about it, it’s OK. Plus, everyone loves their waffles Stroopwafels.
Summary:
There’s no doubt the Tacx NEO is shaping up to be a solid entrant in the higher end trainer world. The lack of massive trainer noise levels alone will be a huge appeal to many, as well as the direct drive aspect. There would be no issues using this trainer in any sort of noise-restricted setting, such as an apartment, or significant other who is desperately trying to watch Grey’s Anatomy re-runs in the same room.
But at the same time, there’s also no reason you need to spend that much money for a very functional electronically controlled trainer. Tacx themselves makes some great models at almost 1/3rd the price that still do FE-C and all of the other technology focused items I discussed here (except simulating descents). Similarly, other competitors such as Bkool, Elite, and Wahoo all are making strong competitive options at lower prices. So definitely do your research.
I think one of the biggest strengths though of any of these trainers, especially the NEO, is the 3rd party compatibility. While Tacx may have a rocky road on the software apps front, it’s somewhat of a non-issue here – since the trainer is being controlled by these 3rd party apps. I do suspect we’ll continue to see some very slight teething items over the next month or two with apps, head unit, and trainer companies implementing these specs. But I think a lot of that’s already been occurring over the summer and by and large things are cleaning up nicely.
I’ll continue to update this post as I get more time on the unit, as well as answer questions below in the comments. Thanks for reading!
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Hopefully you found this review/post useful. At the end of the day, I’m an athlete just like you looking for the most detail possible on a new purchase – so my review is written from the standpoint of how I used the device. The reviews generally take a lot of hours to put together, so it’s a fair bit of work (and labor of love). As you probably noticed by looking below, I also take time to answer all the questions posted in the comments – and there’s quite a bit of detail in there as well.
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Since the Tacx NEO Smart is no longer sold, I recommend looking at Tacx NEO 2T Smart:
This is a super basic trainer mat, which is exactly what you'll see me use. All it does is stop sweat for getting places it shouldn't (it also helps with vibrations too).
There are *many* variations of cassette removal tools, this is the best bang for your buck. Don't overthink this. You'll likely only use this tool once every 2-3 years.
Here's the thing, some people like front wheel blocks, some don't. I'm one of the ones that do. I like my front wheel to stay put and not aimlessly wiggle around. For $8, this solves that problem. Note some trainers do come with them. Also note, I use a riser block with *every* trainer.
I've got three of these $12 fans floating around the DCR Cave, and I frequently use them on rides. They work just fine. Sure, they're not as powerful as a Wahoo Headwind, but I could literally buy 20 of them for the same price.
This desk is both a knock-off of the original KICKR Desk, but yet also better than it. First, it's got wheel locks (so the darn thing stays put), and second, it has two water bottle holders (also useful for putting other things like remotes). I've been using it as my main trainer desk for a long time now and love it. Cheaper is better apparently. Note: Branding varies by country, exact same desk.
This is by far the best value in trainer desks, at only $59, but with most of the features of the higher end features. It's got multi-tier tablet slots, water bottle holders, non-stick surface, adjustable height and more. I'm loving it!
One of the most popular trainer fans out there, rivaling the Wahoo Headwind fan in strength but at a fraction of the price. It doesn't have smartphone/ANT+/Bluetooth integration, but it does have secondary outlets. I've been using it, and a similiar European version lately with great success (exact EU variant I use is automatically linked at left).
This is a Shimano 105 cassette (thus, slightly more budget compared to the Ultegra), in most cases, you probably won't notice the difference. Ensure that the number of speeds matches your bike (e.g. 11-speed, 10-speed, 9-speed, etc...).
This is a Ultegra cassette, you can save about $10-$15 by picking up a Shimano 105 instead. Ensure that the number of speeds matches your bike (e.g. 11-speed, 10-speed, 9-speed, etc...).
I've had this for years, and use it in places where I don't have a big screen or desk, but just an iPad or tablet on my road bike bars.
And of course – you can always sign-up to be a DCR Supporter! That gets you an ad-free DCR, access to the DCR Quarantine Corner video series packed with behind the scenes tidbits...and it also makes you awesome. And being awesome is what it’s all about!
Thanks for reading! And as always, feel free to post comments or questions in the comments section below, I’ll be happy to try and answer them as quickly as possible. And lastly, if you felt this review was useful – I always appreciate feedback in the comments below. Thanks!
Good Morning Mr. Hilko / Tacx,
So regarding noise you mentioned the first patch might have that issue – can you report how to find out if my NEO is first patch or not?
Sometimes there is some rattling noise, but definitely not at each ride….
If you believe the sound is strange, the best solution is to make a sound recording and send this to support@tacx.com
We can also explain that BAD sound comes from new cassettes using old chains. So sound (cracking sound) can be produced if you have an new cassette and an old chain.
For these these we also make an additional FAQ on our website.
The grinding noise is related to old cassette and new chain and or new cassette and old chain. We heard the noise of this. If you dont cycle you dont hear anything. So it is very important to have this setup correctly. if you speed up with -5% for example then there should be no sound in the Neo. All other sounds are related to chain etc
Hmm. The “grinding” sound – I had that on my KICKR. It was using a worn chain on a new cassette. A fair bit of the other noise sounds like you haven’t re-indexed your gears.
just to be sure we are talking about the same sound. I am talking about the sound you hear at the start from 0:00 – 0:04 very loud. I ain’t talking about the chain you hear clicking.
I also have this “humming” sound from time to time…
Would be nice if you can sort that out with Tacx, maybe you take your bike with you and show them how it sounds…
I also have the humming sound. Looks like it’s relative to a change of applied brake force. I have the impression that it is a kind of resonance.
I do not consider it as a very loud noise but it is also present at the Neo of a friend. And he is on his second one. The first one also made this humming sound.
Update: Finally the TACX NEO works as intended. The good people behind Veloreality took my input seriously and released an update tonight which in essence is an update around/coping with Tacx’ interpretation of the ANT+ standard.
I’ve been very happy with the support of the TACX service department, and the design of the NEO but the TT4 software is ahum sub par.. Veloreality has absolutely the smoothest most realistic ride now. Absolutely fantastic to ride Mallorca in 1080p on a a big flatscreen and feel it adapt to every small change in incline.
Dear Tacx peeps, I think you struck gold with the NEO, but needing an iphone to update the NEO?
And the buggy implementation in your own software? Time to wake up fast, luckily the nice people of Veloreality exist somewhere in Canada. As a fellow Dutchman I’d say the language shouldnt be the barrier, their should be enough people in Tacx who speak sufficent english.
Talk to those guys and see if you can list this as software that works with NEO.
If I wouldnt have found it (via the DC rainmaker compare table) I’d have sent the NEO back, and waited for the Kickr 2.
they have an option as well to ride virtually together, I just saw the implementation for the first time and it is the coolest thing. A group ride famous mountains from the basement.
This option is in the version they just released tonight and it is for FREE, as in free beer..
No clue how they can keep the heating on with these prices but I’m a happy camper…
I heard some rumours about sufferfest wotkouts on it, then I’d be awfully happy…
NEO trainer, Veloreality software, a Sony 48″ bargain flatscreen, 15y old magnat surround sound, macbook pro with water damage and for the first time I like indoor training.
Do you use veloreality on your macbook pro via something like VMWare / parallels or via bootcamp?
What’s the performance like and what hardware are you using?
I’ve just got a Neo, but at the moment Zwift is crashing (no idea why, my mid 2013 maxed out Macbook Air should easily run it and it used to start) so thinking about giving veloreality a go.
Sorry for intruding. I do not know Youpmelone’s exact configuration but here is some info for you: using bootcamp is preferable since it provides the best performance. Some people are using it with parallels but keep in mind that you have to enable (if not enabled already) DirectX 10 since this is what our software uses. Finally I’ve got a message from customer who had managed to get it running nicely on VMWare Fusion but it required him to upgrade to Fusion 8. He is using Mac Book Pro (did not supply hardware configuration) and Mac El Capitan.
Thanks for that. Right now I don’t want to dedicate the space to bootcamp, but I do have a win7 VMWare image. If that’s worked for someone I’ll give it a go – nothing to lose!
Video really not needed guys. Just did mine.
Open app. Find and select neo.
Go to update.
Then Let the app do its thing.
Every time it asks you to toggle the Bluetooth close the pop up. Bring up the quick settings by flicking up from the bottom of the screen. Turn bt off. Pause for a second or two. Turn it back on. Dismiss the settings menu.
Eventually after 5 mins of faffing it’s done.
Having done that still not seeing these incredibly controlled power profiles in tr that I’ve seen from kickr users. Assume there’s still word to do from tr side.
OK….so today I updated the firmware and knocked out Sufferfest Nine Hammers.
Below is a comparison between the Neo and the KICKR.
1. As you can see, the power output is far smoother on the KICKR. I believe this is purely down to the fact the KICKR has that big heavy flywheel. Sometimes you just can’t beat physics. I suspect that enabling power smoothing would make the Neo graph smoother but I’m comparing apples with apples here.
2. The Neo is still slower to respond to a requested power change.
3. On a power change, the Neo is more inclined to initially “get it wrong” ie you end up over or under delivering by a fair bit. You can see this clearly on the section I’ve marked with a green ring. I iniitally under-delivered at the start of this segment, but on the third increase you can see I over-delivered.
4. As an observation, I noted that on a constant load, I actually ended up over-delivering across the segment. In basic terms, with the Neo you have to work just that little bit harder.
5. The over-delivering resulted in the workout being harder on the Neo:
202 NP / 624 Cal / 85 TSS (Neo)
200 NP / 609 Cal / 83 TSS (KICKR)
Whilst these numbers seem small and perhaps pedantic, the workout *feels* much harder on the Neo. I suspect that because some of the time I was under-delivering on the Neo, this brings the figures back down again. Certainly I felt that the muscular strain on the Neo was a fair bit more than the KICKR.
This is backed up with the Power Zones reading from TrainerRoad.
As to whether this makes a big difference to you or not…..I guess it depends on what level you’re training to. When I’m training for power I’m right on the edge of what I can sustain. The difference here would mean being able to finish vs giving up or lowering the intensity on the Neo.
I haven’t put a TT bike on the trainer yet or done a TT workout on the Neo, but I can imagine that to a TTer who’s riding to an exact wattage, the over-delivering requirement of the Neo wouldn’t be welcome.
Personally I think that for hardcore training and power/figure freaks ( :) ) the KICKR is still the current champion. The Tacx is a more natural ride (somehow smoother, lateral play) and is certainly quieter so perhaps suits the more recreational rider. Certainly Neo on Trainerroad is probably “good enough” now.
Great work, Lee! Thanks for the info! Do you think the differences that you see in regard to resistance is a result of inherent difference in the machines themselves or is it something that may be corrected with more refined programming on the Neo?
Hmmmm not sure to be honest if it can be made much better. The power figures that you get from a Neo are very similar to my stages power meter in as much that they can fluctuate within a crank turn or two…I suspect its partly that no-one has a perfectly smooth power delivery and partly because they sample quite fast.
The KICKR has that big heavy flywheel remember. The guys at trainerroad told me that this acts as a very good smoother. The Neo has a virtual flywheel and so with no real inertia/mass, is open to the same kinds of fluctuation that anything electronic is.
Do you feel the fluctuation? I don’t think so… Loks like it commutes arround 3,4,5 Watts?
I think if you average an intervall NEo VS Kickr, you will get almost the same values…
Nice graphs. Now the question here is were those graphs reflecting power reported by trainers? If yes I’d like to see the same thing but with power taken from power meter instead.
Search this thread for “Zwift Watopia”. I put on some graphs comparing the Neo to my stages power meter. In terms of average figures over an hour they were identical.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to some earlier posts here (and perhaps on the Tacx forum), there’s also still some work to be done on the TrainerRoad side of the equation isn’t there?
Lee, thanks for the data. I have one question, although I might be asking the same as Veloreality: Could you clarify whether these are power data from the trainers or from your Stages power meter, and, in case of the latter, what the PowerMatch setting in TR is (auto, manual, disabled)? Thanks in advance!
In the comparison of Kickr vs Neo its just those trainers. No power meter. I don’t use powermatch. The only reason I have a powermeter on my indoor trainer bike is I bought it ages ago and it cannot be transferred to my other bikes; I found it useful when gauging the accuracy of the kickr.
From the graphs you show, I totally agree that it could indeed be that the KICKR is superior.
On the other hand, given that these are not graphs from the same dedicated power meter used with the two trainers, but the power values reported by the specific trainers, couldn’t it be that the KICKR’s internal “power meter” is both off and averaging (even after spin-down) resulting in a wrong appearance of superior smoothness and response? The KICKR’s control algorithm “believing” and reporting that it’s doing a near perfect job, while in reality it is just being fooled by the deficiencies of it’s internal power meter?
Anyway, just a suggestion. Since you mention that you have done an accuracy test of the KICKR vs a dedicated power meter, what would your take on such a hypothesis be?
From a different perspective, I think Tacx might have nailed at least the power meter accuracy part with the Neo, while Wahoo did not when designing the KICKR.
We are not talking averages here. People are claiming how trainer A gets to set power instantly and the other on is slow. And to prove the point they show graphs made by proprietary software which I think shows heavily processed power reported by trainer. I want to see 1 sec “instant power” graphs taken from power meter instead.
The Neo reminds me of my stages PM in that power fluctuation is quite large, even when trying to pedal as smoothly as possible. On my Garmin when riding outdoors I use 3s smoothing for example because “instant power readings” are all over the place.
The KICKR is very very smooth in terms of the power it reports. Usually fluctuating by only 1-2W or so. Is it the flywheel ? Is it the electronics inside are doing some smoothing ? Probably a bit of both.
Last night I did a slow and steady ride. The wattage on the kickr was showing 180W @ 95rpm (as I say +- 2W or so). If I flipped over to the stages PM it was around 10W under this. Didn’t record the data streams as right now I’m currently bored of this endless comparison; lets face it, its not going to change anything :)
So I guess your “apples to apples comparison” statement was meant somewhat ironically given that the only shared characteristic of the graphs is that both were self-reported data from the trainers – and that’s more like kiwis and oranges? :-)
Completely agree that such test rides can be tedious; will do some tests my self, given the absence of comparable data.
Anyway, thanks for the information that TR works properly with the Neo; I didn’t notice as I had been using only their iOS app recently and I wasn’t able yet to make that one work with the Neo yet.
Anyone using Campagnolo 11s out there? On mine the 11T cog is not aligned properly like it would be when installing on normal Campagnolo freehub. The tooth in the sqaure box should be where the tooth labeled 11B is.. Is this just the way it is since it a multisys freehub??
Today I have done the new NEO Firmware update in front of tonights Zwift Group Ride… Update went flawless without any Problem!
What I found out is, that the behavior of the Neo did change.
For around 170-180 Watts on a flat I had to gear 39/17 > 39/16 with the old Firmware. With the new on I have to shift to 39/14 > 39/13 to get the same wattage, wich is not that good and realistic as before and compared to a ride outside! Anyone else with the same experience?
@HILKO Tacx Support
Is there a chance to make this better?
Okay – I am a 60 year old who owns a 15 year old Computrainer which in the day was the state of the art indoor trainer. I don’t race anymore, do some fondo style events and local rides. I have Racermate One software and use Zwift and Strava to keep entertained. I try to keep myself in the best shape I can. I do use the Racermate software to compare results once every month in the winter. I check power, Hr, speed and time on a 20km flat TT course to see if I can match previous results. I don’t use a power meter on my road bike as I produce light bulb power at my age. I train by HR and “feel”. Here’s the question – is a Wahoo Kickr or Tacx Neo a complete waste of money for an old CT user? They are tempting but I am beginning to think that I don’t need the “bling” when all I am doing is trying to maintain what fitness I already have.
Hi Jim – kudos to a lifetime cyclist – I think some of the oldest guys in the clubs here are pushing on 90 !!
Sounds to me like you are now in the category of “keen recreational cyclist” rather than someone in out and out training. If power is not important to you then I would suggest looking at products on the market which use the wheel-on design as these are quicker to get the bike on/off and don’t involve having to worry about using a worn chain on an unworn cassette (you will only ever be using the chain and cassette on your bike).
A number of the guys in our club have bought the Tacx Vortex Smart or Bkool trainers. These are the cheapest trainers I know of which deliver the full interactive “smart” experience. The Vortex Smart is the cheaper version of the Bushido Smart and can “only” go upto 950W which doesn’t sound like a limitation for your needs.
Having used Zwift and TrainerRoad for quite some time, I had never ever ridden a virtual ride (ie video of a real life course) and I have to say, the Tacx TTS4 software does this very well with a simple upload to Strava. It will have your friends confused as it looks like you hop around the globe :)
So that would be my recommendation. In the UK a Vortex Smart can be had for £260 whereas the Neo is £1080 – over 4 times as much !!. KICKR is £950 and KICKR Snap £650.
Personally, the biggest selling point for me with the wheel off design is smoothness and a true road feel. The Neo adds lateral play into the mix to make it even more realistic. So if I were you I guess it would boil down to how many hours I was spending on the trainer, what my budget was, and whether I wanted a wheel off or wheel on design. If you’ve spent years on a computrainer then at least you know what wheel-on turbo is like. Why not try a test ride on a wheel-off trainer ?
Thank you Lee for such an informed answer… there’s a lot of us out here like Jim who want an awesome trainer like we hope the Neo will settle into being, but who don’t know if we’re ‘hard core’ enough to justify it!
About wheel slip: is wheel slip a bigger issue on electronic smart trainers with a wheel-on design like Tacx Smarts, Bkool Pro or Wahoo Snap than non-electronic trainers? (I may lean towards the Snap because of the flywheel and 3rd party apps just work…)
I’ve been training on a CycleOps Supermagneto Pro that has progressive magnetic resistance, but is a ‘dumb trainer’. The wheel slip I’ve experienced on it has been infrequent and never interrupted my workout beyond those few pedal strokes. (I suppose I don’t put out mega watts in a sprint then, right?)
Keeping the cassette matched to the chain with a wheel-on designed trainer then might be the selling point, if wheel slip isn’t a bigger factor on an electronic versus non-electronic trainer for those of us who don’t push huge watts. I know ‘rider feel’ also comes into play with a wheel-off design, but I don’t want to confuse the focus with that variable…
Lee: Thanks for the reply. I think that I will stick with my old Computrainer for the present time. I live in a small town and my local shop has a Kickr which I’ve tried briefly. They don’t like Tacx products as they had issues in the past with their products and no longer bring them in.
1. Incorrect tension (tightness)
2. Incorrect tyre pressure
3. Tyre choice
4. Grippiness of the turbo (I think every one I’ve seen uses a smooth metal roller, probably to reduce tyre wear/noise, however worth making sure the metal is clean and not oily)
5. Resistance of turbo set very high (consider instead using a bigger gear on the bike and lowering turbo resistance)
6. Big sudden accelerations
Tacx reckon the Bushido is good for 1400 watts, Kickr Snap 1100 watts, presumably both have been tested with a strong rider so I daresay slippage must not be an issue.
Whilst you might think slippage is not an issue on the wheel-off trainer, interestingly I found its possible to “fool” the Neo. If you have low cadence and suddenly stick a big effort through the pedals, it does indeed feel like you’ve spun a rear wheel. The Kickr does not have this trait, at the end of the day you have to spin a big heavy flywheel so its physics.
When I used to have one bike (what??!!) keeping the chain/cassette wear matched was indeed an issue and I had grinding noises and vibration through the pedals whenever I used my Kickr. Luckily (??!!) I snapped the frame on that bike on a dropout, making it unsafe for road use (thats what I told the wife ho ho) but fine for the turbo/rollers so its now a dedicated indoor trainer bike.
If you do serious indoor mileage (I think I’m going to be pushing 200 – 250 miles a week in the run up to Jan) then a dedicated indoor bike with the wheel-off is great. More like a wattbike setup in fact (although I dislike the ride experience/position on those personally).
The challenge Tacx has (especially in the US) is trying to force everything through the distributor from a support standpoint. It just doesn’t work or scale well. It helps that they’ve rolled out direct to consumer support recently (about a year ago), but the lack of phone support isn’t ideal.
We saw Wahoo go down the same route initially (no phone), then eventually they opened up limited phone support. And finally, now they have a regular number to call. From a global units standpoint Tacx far outweighs Wahoo (way bigger in Europe), so I’d have to imagine it’s straight forward for them to open up such a call center if they wanted to improve the support experience.
Einundsiebzig – At least your firmware flashed properly, I know of 4 people including myself that now own a very expensive trainer doorstop… the firmware failed on all of us at about 25% area, and the the trainer is not even recognized anymore.. it comes up as DfuNrf, attempts to flash the firmware again are failed, and wont even start although it says an upgrade is available..
Jim shatford.. I guess it all depends what you want.. I have a computrainer as well.. I train off ergvideo, veloreality, and zwift.. I wanted a trainer I could ride the real grades at and not worry about blowing power supply so I went for the Neo.. well…. as I said above I now own a doorstop, and to top it off, the last cog on my campy 11s will not install in the proper sequence on the multisys hub,so the ramping is wrong, or the freehub is cut wrong… in any event, Ive contacted the distributor, and I am calling tacx first thing tomorrow AM..
Hi Chris, please send us your info to support@tacx.com, so we can compensate you in any. I talked to the dev team about this, and the bootloader is flashed. Indeed not sure if you turned Bluetooth on/off via the slide screen (that is the best option) but when it falshed up like this it can only recoved by boot loader reset. The cause might indeed be the on/off Bluetooth that this was done to early or to late that for some reason it flashed. Tacx will put a new version in the App store today that reset this bootloaded so that the update can proceed. Unfortunate it takes 4 to 5 days before the App store approves the apps normally. More info on this later
Same problem here. Firmware Update got stuck at 25%. I have an open case with tacx support and a 2nd open case for the noise issue. Mine sounds like an old kettle just when the water is about to boil!
Tobias
Hi TK, very sorry about that. That needs to be fixed anyway. We did remove the utility app. If you have experience the reset, please send us an email. The updated Utility app will be put online to fix this problem. Will update it on this website.
Good news for me as i got a new Neo this morning @ the factory.
I tried a very short session just before i had to go to work and it was unbelievable silent as promised in all the promo’s. The chain wasn’t the problem which i expected, allthough with a new chain it will be even more silent. With a new chain my wife could prolly sleep next to the trainer. Now if i only could convince her to let the neo into the living room ;-)
Tonight i will do a long session on TR to see if everything stays well, i expect that here will be no problems at all.
Extra info on the Neo development, they told me that they are looking to expand the capability for the trainer to work with more cassettes. So not only the campa and shimano they support now.
Thumbs up for the support of Tacx who were willing to help me instantly with my problem.
Can you explain more about the “unbelievable silence” ? My Neo is relatively quite but I do hear some humming / resonance sound once in a while. Can you make a sound recording again?
I can’t honestly say that my Neo is “unbelievable silent”.
Luckily or unluckily mine has developed the same ticking/creaking noises as Lee’s so mine is also going to be replaced by Tacx. I am from the Netherlands but Wassenaar is to far away so I will send it.
It’s just folks talking about something imaginary, as in – the next generation of the KICKR, whenever that’d be. Right now, pretty much all hands on deck at Wahoo are focused on the ELEMNT. And they just released the KICKR SNAP this summer.
Thus the absolute earliest we’d ever see a new KICKR model would be next summer. Nobody releases trainer models after Interbike (Sept) because they’d have missed the season.
The Neo is touted as being quieter, yet DC Rainmaker found only about a 1 db difference in his ‘cave’ compared to the Kickr. Einundsiebzig said, correctly I think, that it is the bike which makes the noise, not the trainer.
The Kickr has a heavy flywheel which the Neo does not. Several have noted that the Kickr gives a more ‘realistic road feel’, possibly because of this, whereas the Neo may give the ‘smoothest drivetrain experience under different loads’. Not sure how to interpret those statements or which is more desirable. Several people, at least, have rushed out, sold their Kickrs, and purchased Neos. I hope they are happy in the longrun and don’t experience buyers remorse. Tacx is having some teething problems with its Neo software, which hopefully for them will be worked out. I must add that I’ve been quite happy with my Kickr for the past year. Although not direct drive, the adjustable belt is quite stable and it is adjustable if need be. Different strokes…….
That’s not exactly what I showed. The top db levels were almost certainly due to clipping in. It’s pretty easy to hear the differences – I don’t think there’s a single person anywhere that has said the KICKR and NEO sound the same.
Unless noise is an absolute primary concern and driver, I do not understand at all why anyone would want to rush to sell their kickr for a neo. That makes no sense to me.
All of this comparison and discussion would surely be the basis of a buying decision BETWEEN a kickr and a neo. Ie some guy starting out and wants to know he bought the best/right product with his hard earned.
I’m lucky in that I don’t have to decide, I can keep both, but frankly I think each is slightly better than the other in certain use scenarios. Right now if I wanted to do a decent, accurate, controlled intervals workout in TrainerRoad I’d choose the kickr. If I wanted to do a TT workout or an accurate FTP test I’d choose the kickr. For all other riding which I’d class more as “recreational” ie Zwift, virtual rides with video, TTS4 virtual reality etc – the Neo.
Similarly I have a set of rollers which I also use as these are good in ways a turbo cannot be.
Ray – I didn’t say they sounded the same, only that your demonstration did not show a big difference. What do you think of the flywheel effect/ benefit?
I’m not sure on the flywheel benefit/effect – I suspect different folks interpret it differently – but I think far more important is actually the apps controlling it.
Meaning, I’d be curious for those that don’t like the effect in one app (i.e. TR), how does it feel in another (i.e. native Tacx App or Veloreality or Zwift). As has already been shown here in this post’s comments – app compatibility items greatly impact things.
As for noise, I’m going to record some new videos (mostly sans-speaking) later today sometime, just for the heck of it.
I fall into more the recreational category. In the end I think I’m just waiting for Ray’s “roundup” – which should be especially more valuable after he spends time with his second model (and all the commentary here for him to leverage when making further assessments)
I’ve been watching the comments the last few days and trying to play the waiting game. My Neo is still making annoying noises, but I’m trying to ignore them for as long as possible. My noises do seem slightly less than others here, probably because I’m not pushing 1000w+. Whilst I see that some people have the luxury of going to the factory / distributer and picking up new unit until they find one that works I’m very much dreading having to return mine. It’s going to mean days off work to be indoors at both collection and delivery and a potential long time without the ability to train (for both myself and the other half). Then I could easily get another one that’s even worse. And all because TACX’s Quality Control couldn’t be bothered to check the units properly. On top of this returning the unit may also cost me a non-trivial amount of hard cash.
Reading the issues with the TACX upgrade utility there’s no way I can use that either. It seems I currently have a chance of bricking the Neo completely and if does work then it will become harder to pedal (more resistance) in Zwift. It’s already hard enough so I certainly don’t fancy making it harder.
Really I’m wishing that there had been somewhere I could have tried the KICKR and Neo together and that perhaps I’d waited a bit longer. Although the lure of “silience” was too much to resist, the spectre of having to return a 20Kg+ unit several times for many days is far worse.
This is my first experience of trainers and my first of TACX.
Just took a call from my LBS. I’d kept them in the loop and they went back to Fisher who are the UK distie.
Fisher are collecting and removing the weld residue. In my case (not sure if this would apply to all customers, but it seems to be Tacx policy) they are happy for me to swap my unit with another at the LBS.
Do you not have a neighbour/relative who could have the Neo at their place so it can be collected without inconvenience?
I did the update just fine. I have a friend who doesn’t own an iphone, he isn’t as technical as most on this thread, he borrowed his partners iphone and managed it just fine.
If Zwift has become harder then its more likely the thing I talked about above – the Neo ends up with you over-delivering on power. Right now I’m not using resistance control in zwift, just using it for speed/cadence/power and its a lovely ride.
I still haven’t used my kickr once even with all of these issues going on. But today for my lunchtime spin I’ll swap the bike back over and see what I think now I’m used to the Neo.
Don’t despair. This is classic “early adopter” syndrome. It will get sorted.
Had you bought the kickr you may well have been following other threads questioning the power output, asking how to get cadence out of the kickr (mine doesn’t, its vague as to why), getting to learn bluetooth and its connection foibles on wahoo applications. The grass is not always greener :)
Hey Andrew,
I could just copy/paste your comment. Same problems (noise) and dilemma (days off training) here – 100%. Anyway, in the EU (I live in Germany) we have 1 year warranty and I think I will just wait until march, before I call my distributer and let the Neo be fixed or swapped.
Unfortunately I did not purchase mine from the LBS because Neo’s were rarer than hens teeth. After it arrived it made a noise straight away, I walked into the LBS 2 days later they had just had a delivery. I almost cried.
I have noone else I can give the Neo to for collection. It’s a nightmare scenario and one I was well aware would be the case were I to recieve a dud. I weighed up the pros and cons at the time (with the Mrs) and decided to risk that TACX were only shipping solid units that were well tested and quality controlled. Even DC stated above that issues were likely to be software related.
I gambled wrong, now I have to face the consequences.
Perhaps I would rue not buying the Neo had I purchased the KickR. Who knows. I was pushed into a corner with winter coming (Game of Thrones was right!) and needed a quiet trainer fast.
Still, I will wait until the new software is released before I upgrade. And until a few others have tried it first. I can at least learn 1 lesson ;-) Especially as it won’t fix the noises and it works perfectly fine in Zwift as it is.
Andrew sorry to hear about your experience with the Neo. I’ve only been cycling for five years and I have never seen LBS in my area or throughout my travels in the USA have any Tacx trainers on site. The exchange/return process was one of my main reservations in purchasing a Neo. Ultimately, that was the deciding factor of why I cancelled my Neo preorder and picked up a Kickr this week. As I said in a previous post, I know the Neo will be better than the Kickr. But, I wanted a smart trainer that was plug & play, and the Kickr used along with my Stages power meter has met that need. However, the Kickr is noticeable louder than the KK trainer I was using, even to the point that my wife made a comment about it.
Now I have a bag of mixed feelings because while the Kickr just works and is compatible with so many apps. Part of me still wants a trainer that is quieter than the Kickr and the KK trainer. But the hassle in case something goes wrong with the Tacx Neo, then dealing with the online distributor and the cost of shipping for the exchange and the time it takes to do all that. I have no luck with gambling and I like safe investments, dealing with the noise of the Kickr is the safer bet for me at this time.
I think after 5 years you had a better handle on the situation than myself. I’ve only been cycling a few months this year and this was my first experience of TACX other than reading reviews. The general concensous seemed to be “terrible issues in the past but much better now” and I took that gamble. I now only have myself to blame. Well of course there’s always the people that decided Quality Control was overated at TACX to blame too of course.!!
Quiet was paramount to us and listening to videos (including DC’s) of the KickR running at high speed put me off and pushed me to the TACX route. Had the Neo appeared on the market in June I would never have purchased until the first batch was out there and the reviews posted. But with winter closing in, the temperature dropping, the rain falling, I had to make an expensive decision fast.
The whole UK distributor giving the ok for the LBS to swap units is interesting.
My Neo makes a hell of a racket – including some clicking after form sprints in TR – in fact post workout when the flywheel is spinning down is a great example, must record the sound.
Looks like speaking to the shop I purchased from and see if they will swap for me. Or am I best getting the uk distro to agree to a swap and THEN phone the place I got it from? not sure.
I think you need to speak to the shop you got it from. The issue is that there are none in stock to swap for right now, so sending back risks a far greater delay. But if it’s got that bad then I guess it’s time.
Waaay noisier than mine in terms of chain noise. Having said that, when I bought the Neo, I took it as opportunity to change the cassettes, chain *and* front chainrings on my indoor bike. I rode my kickr yesterday for the first time in ages and the drivetrain noise was less than I can remember plus felt smoother as well.
FYI – For those wanting another sound recording, here’s quite possibly my most boring YouTube video ever – me sitting on a trainer for 40+ minutes just letting it record the sounds on the NEO. I talk briefly at the 1ish minute marker, then again and 20, 30, and 40 minutes simply so you can hear my voice: link to youtube.com
Note this is the second NEO unit, they had sent this new one over because they wanted to update the firmware and there wasn’t yet a firmware updater available for it.
Yeah, I need to clean and tune a bit. Though I think it’s valid to continue to ensure folks are understanding the difference between chain/cassette/shifting noise and that of the trainer (which is very low).
Fair point. I’ve kinda got bored of the whole noise discussion though. Partly because it doesn’t affect me ;-) but also because as you well know, a new/clean well-indexed drivetrain is very quiet. In fact, even a different lube will make a difference here. And I know that most of my acquaintances are nowhere near as anal as me when it comes to cleanliness=godliness.
But in truth its also because in that same room as your trainer and bike you most likely have
You ! breathing away, swearing at sufferfest videos
A fan (which if its like mine is bloody good but has noise)
TV/music/speakers
So it becomes an irrelevance. Last night I rode my kickr whilst the wife and I watched some TV. The kickr whine wasn’t the loudest thing, it was the fan. Plus the kickr noise is behind you and your ears are designed for sound from the front.
Bottom line – if the trainer is working fine, it makes next to no noise.
No. Its quite clever actually. Even on a very smooth pedalling action, there will always be a bigger force applied at the pedals (the downstroke) – by monitoring the power flow and “counting” when the bigger forces occur, you measure cadence. Its pretty darn accurate.
The New utility app is online (some already noticed this :)
What to do
1. remove your old Utility app
2. then install the new utility app that is in the App store (version 1.2.14)
3. Go to devices – then select your trainer (or the name it finds)
4. Then go to Update and press UPDATE
When you are asked to turn off bluetooth, slide the bar (see pictures some people already posted here, but use the slide bar of your iphone at the botton to turn BT on or off) and then turn Bluetooth off and wait 3 seconds and then turn it on.
It could be that the app stops at 50%.
Then select Dashboard or wait and then go to update again and you can continue the update (or it is done again). (for people who were resetted).
If you still experience problems let us know or send a mail to support@tacx.com
One comment Please turn off any other devices that are connected via Bluetooth, or disconnect other devices via Bluetooth. Then it will all work correctly. Else the update might “hang” when resetting the Bluetooth.
FWIW, rode a brief comparison between Neo and KICKR with TrainerRoad and power measured by a power meter (PowertapP1). Just one ride each with the trainers I have access to, so no claims of representativeness. No double checks and numerical analysis yet, just impressions from looking at the data:
– Overall, no big differences.
– TR seems to work as good with the Neo as with the KICKR.
– Both are more accurate with power matching than on their own.
– On their own, Neo was less accurate at very low power and up to about 250W but became more accurate at higher power, whereas the KICKR seemed inaccurate by about +10% over whole range (and can be off by a lot at higher power).
– Power matching seemed to have some negative effect on KICKR (less smooth, slower response at very low power), but not so on the Neo.
– Neo with power matching seemed most accurate and smoothest.
Notes:
– Attempted to keep cadence similar and reasonably constant over the whole test. Did not test yet how the trainers each respond to sudden changes in cadence.
– All items had the latest firmware and all programs were tested in newest version.
– TR was run on OSX. Could not make TR iOS app work with Neo.
– Power meter was zero offset once at the beginning. KICKR was spun down before each ride.
– Might write up a deeper analysis later on my blog.
I note your power output is nowhere near as smooth as mine on the KICKR. On a sustained effort ie your initial staggered three peaks, I would get a near flatline.
At one point in the past I stopped getting this flatline and started observing graphs much like yours so I disassembled the optical reader and cleaned it all out plus the black and white sticker on the flywheel.
This may or may not alter your test results.
Comparing your statements to my own testing, I agree that the Kickr has a fundamental accuracy issue. Mine is around 10W-15W overreading compared to my stages PM. However in my opinion, the kickr works much better with TR than the Neo. But then my graphs are smoother and the unit is lightning quick to respond (PC via ANT+ not OSX). I also agree that power matching dumbs down the response on the kickr, which is why I don’t use it.
I think all you have “proved” is that using a different setup and trainers, different results have been observed. What I get isn’t necessarily what you are getting.
Whilst its frustrating not being able to train indoors with power that relates exactly to power observed on the road, I am happy at least that the kickr is consistent with itself and works well with all the applications I use. The Neo seems to be more accurate but my experience is that it does not work well with all applications.
I did a workout on Zwift Island >
Main part was a 2x30min. split on 180W with a 10min. rest at 130W…
Same session was recorded with my garmin edge 1000 and my powermeter…
Both were almost identical and the average difference of the 30min splits was less then 1W… Indeed you also see some spikes around that 180W resistance, but you see that in both, Neo session log and Powermeter session log.
So I really do not understand why you are claiming that it is frustrating not being able to train indoors with power that relates exactly to power observed on the road – reason, just cause it definitely is…
In every crank rotation is a drift of wattage and no human can put a 100% on point wattage in a 360° rotation! So a smooth straight line is not that what you typically get when you are on the road too. And if you expect, that a staight line will make your training or testing better in any way, you might need to understand that it just does not matter, if there are little pikes in between 2, 5 or whatever little Watts… If you do an interval or a test and the average is on point, than this is all what you need…
I train on TrainerRoad. And for me, the Neo is not working correctly with that application. That is my main point right now. Its close, don’t get me wrong, but its not perfect.
Observations about smoothness of lines etc, are just that – observations.
Lee, thanks for your comment. I’m not attempting to disprove any of your data or your impressions. I am just showing a set of comparison data that I (and some others I think) believe is better suited for objective, fact-based comparison.
It might really be the case that the KICKR is smoother than the Neo, and it’s good to hear opinions based on real experiences. But, comparing the power graph reported by KICKR with the one reported by the Neo does not really show anything, because we do not know how each calculates power. Those graphs could be comparable or not, we do not know.
Data taken with the same, dedicated power meter would be comparable, so that’s what I did and what my graphs show. The reason is simply that we can assume that, as the P1 used for the graphs is the same unit, it will have the same sampling characteristic for both measurements (except for spikes and small errors due to temperature changes etc).
As you have commented on the lack of smoothness in my KICKR data, here are the graphs of the KICKR and Neo (without power matching, similar to your data set) but with data from both the trainers (as in your graphs) as well as my P1 (what my last graphs showed).
As you can see, the power reported by my KICKR (red) is about as smooth as your KICKR graph, and my Neo graph (blue) shows kinda similar noisyness to your graph. But comparing those isn’t really objective; it’s somewhat like comparing the number of stars of a restaurant on the Michelin three-star-scale with that of the Yelp six-star-scale (or was it seven?). It’s apples-to-apples in the meaning of comparing stars with stars; in reality it’s more like kiwis-to-oranges (or whatever) because the meaning of the stars is different. (Really sorry, if this sounded offensive to anyone, just couldn’t come up with a better metaphor!) Again, what is comparable here are the yellow graphs of the P1.
Hope this explanation clarifies the issue here to everyone reading this thread.
Thanks for the info, all read/understood :) No problems with the metaphor :)
I guess the fundamental problem here is that in order to do a true comparison, you need to run with all power meters capturing data from a single session, then make comparisons. I think DC uses WASP stuff to do this when using multiple devices of the same type. However in this instance its impossible to measure output from the Neo and KICKR since you can only ride one at a time ;-)
(visions of some tandem style bike with lengthy chain and two trainers lol)
So the best that can be done is
a) Ride on Neo and Alternative PowerMeter
b) Ride on KICKR and Alternative PowerMeter
c) Ensure Alternative PowerMeter is the same in both tests
d) Try as much as possible to ensure test conditions are the same, spindowns, applications and versions, temperature, cadence etc etc
I generally use a blend of a WASP, and a few concurrent head units.
Ultimately, one cannot directly compare power outputs from two different trainer sessions (unfortunately). There’s just too many nuances there to do so. However, you can compare trainer + power meter ouputs, however again, if only two power meters you can get into a situation of: Which ones right?
The test methodology is extremely important – and is what most people tend to hose up. Everything from recording rates to crank lengths (depending on power meter) to calibrations and warm-up periods if applicable.
However, with trainers it gets trickier – since the apps that you use can and do have a direct impact on many facets. For example, some have had issues with Trainer Road and the NEO. Does one judge the NEO on that, or? Same goes for Zwift or any other app. What I try and do is to separate out and use some native functionality as well (as boring as that may be), such as the default apps that Tacx has to hold various power levels. That helps to specify a baseline to work from.
I’ll be starting to publish data shortly with NEO + 2 or more power meters concurrently, which should help.
Yes, that was a TrainerRoad-specific comparison … or to be more precise an OSX TR specific comparison as I still haven’t been able to control the Neo with their iOS app as I wrote.
I did have a 2nd power meter (Pioneer) running in parallel but the WASP iOS app died … again! … so I had to “synchronize” that data manually using HR pattern, and that’s why it wasn’t included in the original dataset … but it’s pretty damn close to the P1 except for some transmission errors.
Will look forward to that data … and to what combinations you chose for more than 2 power meters.
For the sound tests, could you make 15 seconds sound clips with no running commentary? IThe current videos make it hard to find the sound and listen to it.
Ideally, this would be a longer video going something like this: trainer announcement then sound sample, trainer , sound
Something Ike
“tack NEO”, 15 se ond sound clip from start to speed then hold for 5 seconds
“Kicker” , Samestrucutre of sound clip
“Kurt kinetic”, sound
“Another trainer”
….
So if add the Tacx “Upgrade Smart kit I don’t need to get a dongle to run Zwift? I don’t see Clever Training offering the kit .. I hope they do & at the discounted price if buying together . I have been using TTS4 on my Fortius trainer.. which I will be selling
Thanks
FYI the Tacx Antenna does not work with Zwift if you use just the provided drivers that come with TTS4. I have to install Garmin Express which brings in drivers which work with Zwift, even though its a tacx antenna.
Bonkers, but I wiped the PC and reinstalled it from scratch and thats exactly how it is.
That is indeed odd. My fresh install is Win8.1. However I did not try the antenna with zwift before installing TTS4. Just so we’re talking about the same thing, I’m referring to the tacx antenna T2028, the base station thing on a USB lead, not a USB stick or dongle.
Yup, same one. I only note it because I literally just swapped/moved PC’s around tonight and was happy to find it plugged right in and Zwift worked. :)
Some apps are already there (I think Kinomap). But I’m going to circle with the Tacx folks this week and get full clarity ahead of the 2015 Trainer Recommendations guide this week.
Mine does exactly sound like this from time to time…
New cassette and new chain!
This rattling is not permanent and if I give the freehub a little gap to roll and then pick up pedaling again, the rattling noise is often gone…
Is this a problem of a broken edco freehub (bearing issue) or is it the claimed noise problem because of metall parts between the magnets?
In contrast to Tacx’s diagnosis from the sound clip, I have NEVER heard a badly indexed setup or worn component make that amount of noise. That noise you have is what I had that night when the trainer got hot: link to youtube.com – I recorded mine from an iphone inside a waterpoof case which it why it doesn’t sound as “bright” as yours, but its definitely the same thing.
And on my setup, its indexed perfectly, brand new cassette/chain/chainrings.
so I cannot agree with tacx diagnosis of that sound, sorry.
Strongly agree Lee. Please see my reply to TACX below. I’ve also had the other half pedal whilst I listened to the Neo from close range. I too have never heard a bike make any noise remotely like this when not attached to a Neo.
My recording was also done an iPhone, but the case being used was very light, hence perhaps why the sound is brighter.
Btw – I’ve not checked to see if the Neo is getting hot, nor do I know how hot is should get.
Yeah I got my wife to stick her ears next to the bike, she said the sound was deffo coming from inside the trainer too.
My LBS have one in stock, but have been unable to confirm with Fisher whether its part of the “initial non-QA’d batch”. It came in a shipment of two and I’ve a friend who took the other one, he has been talking about noises too…..just tricky to work out whether its his indexing/components or whether its the trainer. I don’t know whether to stick with the unit I have now, or swap it out anyway, I suppose worst case scenario is that 2nd trainer is also faulty and I need a third. Luckily my LBS is close :)
Very jealous of that puchase from the LBS. I’m absolutely gutted about this issue. I purchased the Neo on the premise that it was quiet andpaid well over £1000 for this fact. I decided against the tried, tested and cheaper KickR on this basis. Now I have very noisy Neo and face huge hassle / cost returning it, time without a trainer (training pogrammes having to stop) and the fear that the replacement will be just as bad.
Tacx support hasn’t gotten back to me yet over the weekend, so I might write it just here: The noise of my unit developed only over time, it didn’t happen on the first rides even when riding hard, now it is often quiet when I’m sitting, but it gets noisy when I ride standing, so, at this moment I’d suspect a bearing getting loose. And from my video above, it seems to be not a freewheel issue but inside the unit.
Hi Andrew, this also sounds like an new cassette and an old chain. We have heard that sound before. Also send this to support@tacx.com for the correct registration.
Hi guys. This is nothing to do with the Chain, the noise is coming from inside the Neo somewhere.
For reference the Chain is brand new, as is the cassette. The bike was purchased a month ago soley for use indoors on the Neo and has only been ridden for 5 miles outside on a dry sunny day to test everything worked correctly.
Also for reference. This noise does not happen all the time, sometimes you can ride for 30 minutes before it starts, sometimes it’s there from the start, once it was even super quiet for around 45 minutes before the clanking started. If it was the chain you’d get this all the time.
I will send an email as suggested above. I have also emailed the retailer where it was purchased earlier today, but I note that they have no new Neo’s in stock to swap it for and I’m extremely worried it will get swapped for another with the same issue.
Ps i let some other people listen to the sound. if the chain and cassette are the same age it is always good. The sound could come from 2 things , will send you a mail on that
Look forward to the email. As stated, the chain, cassette and in fact the whole bike are brand new. Willing to try any steps I can to sort this out if you have anything to suggest.
If there are steps I can take then you may wish to post them here so that other people can also try to resolve if they have the same issue.
Please note though. I have listened closely whilst someone else pedals and the noise originates from somewhere in the Neo, not the chain. It’s also intermittent, so sometimes it makes the noise, sometimes it doesn’t. By the time I’ve pedalled for an hour it always makes the noise. Once happening it has been known to go away again after a while, then return a while later.
DC. I see that you recieved a new Neo from TACX on the basis that it had a later software version.
Doesn’t it seem more likely that TACX realised your first one might sound like someone had left a spanner in there so shipped you one that they knew didn’t have the issue ?
I don’t really wish to post my email address here, hope you understand. I emailed support@tacx.com as instructed with all my details and a summary of the issue at 11:30am (UK – GMT). Hopefully you should be able to find all the information there. I also made reference to this webpage in the email, so it should be fairly obvious it’s me.
I haven’t recieved any emails from TACX at either the account I asked for replies to be sent to or my work account I used to send. I have also checked Junk email folders just to be sure.
Sorry, missed this question. Nah, the reason for the new one was simply due to some power related tweaks that I saw a few weeks into things that they had a firmware fix for. There simply wasn’t a clean way to get my unit upgraded since the updater wasn’t available yet.
Fwiw, my first unit still sounds just fine – same as my second unit. I don’t know if the Tacx folks pre-tested my unit prior to shipping it to me with an actual human riding it. Sometimes companies do (and it’s obvious), and sometimes not. I had to put on my own cassette, fwiw.
Happy camper: After a firmware update yesterday my Neo works very well indeed with TR. Great trainer: no noise, no problems.
It makes very little noise and my wife and daughter are not bothered at all when i train in the next room. My gasping for air when doing SufferFest on TR drowns out any noise coming for the Neo :-)
Sorry, to hear about all the problems some people have had, but mine works fine. Just wanted to add that to the impressions of the Neo.
Bear in mind that what one person finds “perfectly fine” might be different to another. If you’ve never ridden a smart trainer, don’t have a kickr to compare to etc then its very possible the current firmware Neo on TR will be seen as OK by many.
I am using TR 2.7.4 and new firmware as of yesterday. I have tried the Kickr and thinks that the only thing that really makes a difference between the Neo and the Kickr is the noise levels.
With the Neo firmware and Neo in ergo mode – the power uptake from say 100 w to 250 w is now done i aprox 5 secs. With the old firmware it took 30 secs. So some improvement there.
5 seconds is still too long though. Ever ridden Sufferfest Rookie ? There are a number of “surges” which last just 5 seconds. If the trainer takes 5 seconds to adjust, it will be reducing the resistance before you’ve even ramped up.
Not saying the KICKR is perfect here either mind you.
If I have some time tomorrow I’ll ride the first 10 minutes on Rookie on both KICKR and Neo, and video the output so you can see in realtime what I’m talking about.
Where did you get 2.7.4 from ? Latest published release is 2.7.2. Perhaps thats the difference, perhaps you have a beta version which includes more optimisations for Neo ?
It would be really interesting to see a poll of who has Tacx Neo units that are working perfectly vs noisy vs noisy and with tech integration issues. I’m sure there are quite a few problem units as seen here, but people with problems are WAYYYYYYY more likely to post about them than people without problems whose units are working just fine. It may well be that MOST of the units are just fine, but it’s hard to get a gauge of that on here in this type of setting. Anyone started a poll on a forum yet? Is there one forum we could go to to get the most views?
I have The Tacx already and I put new cassette with OLd chain But It is very noise and something are wrong, can someone see The vídeo and help me with your fedeback?
Thanks.
All I can hear is your bike chain, drivetrain and the sound of the freehub when you let him go. But this is all like it should be… The gearing/indexing of the chain can be fixed…
I’m a happy Neo user. No noise issues and the update (I waited for the re-release) of the firmware worked fine. Good performance on Zwift.
I checked with the TrainerRoad guys today and although the firmware update has improved the response times for the Neo they are confident they can improve things through further tuning on their side. They’re still waiting for their unit to arrive.
Interesting comments regarding the upgrade working well with Zwift. I performed the upgrade (after waiting for the 2nd version of the software) but didn’t notice any difference.
However since Saturday I’ve been using the training modes which switch the Neo to ERG or Resistance mode. I haven’t done much free cycling around the island. And I am distracted by the clanging.
I saw and felt no difference in between normal rides on Zwift Island with the new firmware. First I thought I had to use higher gears to get to the same wattage, but that was groupe ride/drafting realted…
This is probably a good thing. My experience with the Neo and Zwift is that it works very well indeed. Free riding, training in ERG and Resistance mode all seem to work very well and be very responsive to me.
Tonight I’m riding Day-2 from the 12 week FTP builder programme and there are several “sprints” in there, so I’ll get some more experience on how that feels too.
the 10 second @ (for me) 415w was a pain, your head is saying up the cadence, the trainer is constantly lagging behind you upping the resistance at a cadence that youve just superceded. as a result it was a very domed interval where I would overshoot wildly, then settle in just as the 10 seconds were up. I get the feeling that this is down to my terrible technique more than anything though.
By the end id got it smoother by just holding my natural cadence and just absorbing the increasing resistance while trying to not let your leg speed get bogged down, or overreact and get too fast.
If you read upwards on one of my posts I said that the Neo makes you “over deliver”, which makes the workout significantly harder. The method in which a rider delivers power should not matter to a smart trainer. Guys with big legs can keep a constant cadence and increase the strength whereas guys like myself with feeble legs would indeed increase cadence. Spinning is winning (in my case) :)
An interesting point though and adds more fuel to the fire of “what is good to one person might not be to another”. YMMV !
Sorry I wasn’t as clear as I could be. I actually held off using the Neo until the update was available.
I planned to begin my next training block on traineroad so was waiting to update the firmware to allow them to play nicely together. As it happened right when I had an ftp test to do Zwift released workout mode – becuase I hate FTP tests I thought I’d try it on Zwift instead.
So I’m afraid I have no pre-update comparison to make. Just the comment that my experienc on Zwift was positive.
FWIW, I’m coming from a Kickr which I sold to buy the Neo so that I can train when our 8 month old is sleeping – on the noise aspect it’s certainly not silent but it doesn’t disturb the boy so that’s good for me.
Interesting to read numerous guys noting humming, groaning noise when using the Neo. I hooked mine up for the first time a week ago and hopped onto TR hoping for a much quieter session than my wattbike Pro. This was not the case. With a 11-28 on the back and the chain settled into 25 ring the groaning was annoying at 80 cadence. Up the cadence to 100 and it slightly reduced.
Changed gears to 13 cog on the rear cassette and hit the same 80 cadence and the noise was present but not as loud as on the 25 ring. Upped the cadence to 100 and all I could hear was the chain going through the gears and no humming noise at all.
I setup a ticket with Tacx and was asked to check my cassette and chain and to make sure all was indexed. I did this on my winter bike (brand new chain and ultegra cassette) and then indexed on my Shimano Di2 but the same issues remained. I’m now awaiting a repair or replacement.
Another point on power… I also note that the Neo differed by at least 50W on my efforts that I have done on the WB. I regularly use TR and was happy with my FTP work when on the WB but soon as switched to Neo I struggled to keep the training wattage for sessions over 1hr. When I reduced the intensity by 10% they felt the same.
Hoping for a silent Neo on return to continue my investigation !!
So…….today I went back to my LBS and swapped my Neo for a new one. As DC put it, mine sounded like “it had a gumball knocking around in there”.
Got the new one home and did the firmware update then hopped on Zwift.
Whereas my previous unit was very smooth and had no real vibration, just that terrible noise, this unit is not as smooth and has a sawing noise/vibration. Its quite subtle so I suspect trying to get a recording will be difficult. However its a kind of vibration that you feel through your hands on the bars and its akin to running your nails down a blackboard, it makes you tingle and feel eeekish after a bit. I had to keep sitting up and taking my hands off.
I’ll persevere and put some more miles on it to see if it lessens, but I can’t help feel I’ve jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire here.
Conversely, rode my kickr a LOT this week and it was very pleasant indeed going back to something as smooth as silk. If only it didn’t under-read on power lol !
Sorry to hear that Lee. I’m now waiting for a replacement unit to be shipped and hoping that it’s solid. Seems like DC has a good one now, so they do exist !
Is there any way for you to find out if you just recieved another from the “1st batch” ? Can TACX check the Serial Number for you ?
The “1st batch” issue was supposedly weld and gumball knocking :)
this is a different kind of sound. Looking at some of the posts below and clearance I’ve just taken off my garmin speed/cadence sensor as that was quite close between frame and Neo.
It does seem like this is turning into a case that you can get a silent Neo if you’re able to get pigs flying in front of a blue moon whilst unicorns sing songs.
To be thorough we mean that low and high stops are set correctly such that the derailleur cannot move past the smallest/biggest cogs on your cassette, plus (more importantly for noise) that the chain sits squarely on each cog as you move up and down the gears ie its not rubbing against cogs either side, that annoying clicking sound as if you’re halfway to changing gear.
Noticed now that I have only minimum clearance between my seat stay and the trainer, probably around 1mm, and that when the bike is upright. Wasn’t that obvious from other view angles. If I put my weight on the right side of the bike it seems to be touching, so I might actually be hitting the trainer with my frame when I am riding standing. (This is a 2012 Cannondale SuperSix, non-evo.)
Not nice … and this in addition to the knocking seemingly caused by a loose bearing (though that cause is not verified yet) and the occasional humming … It’s nice to have all this technology available now, but sometimes it’s not. ;-)
Interesting. I don’t believe I’ve ever checked, will take a look at that gap this evening. Any chance that it’s not fully seated at the left side ?
Knocking. Loose Bearings. Gumballs. Many different descriptions of what sound like similar issues, potentially with the same cause ? I know that generally only those with issues complain, but from what I’ve seen and people I’ve questioned it’s so far very rare to find anyone that says “I have a Neo and it runs like a dream”.
A friend has just taken delivery of one, so I’m going to be looking for his opinion oover the next week.
Wow, that’s really close. Mine it quite a bit further. I’ll try and grab a photo today with the bike I’ve been using the most.
I think the thing to keep in mind is that like you said, for the most part only people with issues will come and post here. It’s a logical progression of “Hearing noise, search google, find DCR post, make comment”. So even if that’s only 5-7 people out of thousands, it probably looks heavier than it is. That said, there have been a few others that have posted in recent weeks saying it’s silent and happy.
Friend of mine has a Spezialized 2012 Shiv TT. Does not fit in > bottom braket and chainstay is sitting on the neo… Cannondale Slice TT also does not fit. My Fuji Norcom Straight TT also doesn’t fit in…
Maybe Tacx should make the housing a little bit smaller, not so wide at the possible contact points…
A piece of paper slid in will stuck if I put my weight on the right side, so, frame and trainer indeed touch during riding though probably not very forceful. Just double checked that the frame was fully seated on the axle. I don’t think this will break my frame and don’t care that much about a bit of paint – still, kind of an unnecessary, avoidable design issue and would hope for some redesign.
To be fair, it just came to my mind that this would depend on frame size too; this is a fairly small frame (44cm), a larger size might just have that bit of wider seat stay triangle to clear. And, given that some frames don’t fit at all, I guess I should consider myself happy that my frame does at least fit in … ? ;-)
But Tacx needs to update the “suitable bikes” tab on their product homepage with a list of frames that do fit, just barely fit, or do not fit at all; not just a list of compatible cassettes.
well, it would be very hard for TACX to create such a list … with all the different frames / bikes outside in the world … and with considering the different frame sizes …
Did I write they needed to make a complete list? It would be very easy to just make public what they know, as they seem to getting these compatibility complaints anyway …
I just put the template in my Cannondale Supersix 5 105 (non-EVO). I bought it new in 2013 and as far as the template is concerned it seems like it will fit. Nowhere near seat stay, but maybe kinda tight at chainstay.
Joe, yes I think they changed the design from 2012 to 2013 to thinner and less curved seat stays as well as flatter, wider chain stays, so that would be the difference.
My 2010 Supersix has the same issues.. and with an 11spd block on there, the edco lockring at one point has about 1/4 mm space between the lockring and frame is is dragging at some point.. luckily I never got rid of my 2005 Pinarello Prince SL… so that is becoming the new trainer bike with a part swap tonite…. ughhhh always something!
Must be really frustrating for those with defective noisy units arranging, then waiting and hoping for one that is silent as touted. Even more frustrating when one can go to YouTube and see Ray riding his perfectly silent unit. Tacx wouldn’t let him get a bad one.
Ray’s Neo and video is the holy grail. It proves that somewhere out there as a fully working unit. It proves that TACX have at least made 1 and it gives hope for all the others (like me) out there that there is another somewhere !
I did an hour on the Neo last night and although it made the noise for 50 minutes it’s clear that it’s still an amazing bit of kit. I’ve partially solved the issue too by using headphone and turning the volume up loud :-)
Finally, it has been mentioned above that freewheeling can solve the issue for a while. I tried this a few times and it does have an effect. But after I start pedalling again the noise is back, usually within 30 seconds (max).
tired of the noise mine makes now, its the sort of noise you can ‘feel’ even with headphones on. Cleaned and lubed every part of my drive train on Monday, no difference, got a friend coming around with a different bike tomorrow to try on there, see if thats the same, if it is ill get some sound recordings and log a ticket with tacx.
Its annoying isn’t it. I’ve had a kickr for over a year so I’m well aware of the importance of indexing, clean drivetrain/lube etc. But its getting to the point where unless every single piece of the equation is perfect you’re going to get a sub-standard ride.
Since I still have my kickr and indoor noise isn’t a concern I’m a fags paper away from just returning the Neo and moving on with life. Not sure how long my browser can keep opening this thread for ;-)
Adam, I know what you mean about being able to feel the noise with headphones on, the vibration caused is runs through the bike frame right to the bars. You can’t fully block it out. However it does go a long way to helping.
Just been informed that Tacx have only delivered a few tacx units to the distribution centre in the uk.so.my order has for the 5th time been bumped. Now at 11th november.
OK some more information for those with vibration noises. (We need a name for these as GumBall is now the official name for Batch#1 issues – I propose we go with SawBone as thats what it sounds and feels like)
Turning the pedals by hand with a reasonable speed I can hear and feel the vibration. It appeared to be coming from the rear of the device on the right hand side.
I have found that if I apply enough pressure to the metal disc, the sound and vibration goes away.
Therefore the conclusion is that the metal disc is rubbing against the case or something in some way.
As always, a video speaks a thousand words. Turn your speakers up !!
I have to send it to some-one because from my speakers i could not really hear it. Will forward it to some people. Like andrew, can you send us a mail with that link so i can let others hear it (andrew has something else we are checking). Thanks (mail support@tacx.com)
Same sound/vibration here. I feel the vibration through the bike in my hands, and it makes my wooden floor vibrate – the neighbours can ‘enjoy’ hearing me train again.
The noise/vibration is also present without pedaling. Tomorrow I will make a recording without my bike on it, to get a recording without the freewheel noise. (Plug in the Neo without a bike, set the slope to -2% on my iPhone.)
This is my second Neo. My first Neo also made the Gumball noise. I swapped it this morning at my LBS (in the Netherlands). I’ll call them tomorrow, and send Tacx my recording.
Quality control issues at Tacx? Now I assume that only those with issues find this thread and post their complaints. But it appears that several of us have swapped their faulty Neo, and got a faulty Neo in return. Coincidence? I wonder what would happen if those customers who think their Neo is silent, listen to their Neo without their bike on it, with the slope to -2%. In a earlier post, Tacx support stated that there should be no sound in the Neo “if you speed up to -5% for example”.
Since the noise is coming from the metal disk, pure conjecture on my part but I reckon all of our units with the vibration have been disassembled to remove the gumball weld, and something about that process means they are not put back together quite right.
As far as I know, no v1 gumball unit had the vibration.
I got this exact same sound. My girlfriend actually thinks the Neo makes MORE noise then Kickr, just because of this vibration it makes. I also know that my neighbors hear this..What to do Tacx? I live in Norway.
I recieved my Neo yesturday and I have the same sound too. There’s also vibration.
I was not able to make it go away by applying pressure on the metal disc though.
I hope Tacx can solve this soon, because now the system is far from quiet.
Well, according to my LBS (Van Herwerden in the Netherlands), this sound/vibration is normal. I did and do not accept that (Tacx Support mentioned on this site that the Neo should be absolutely quiet), and after some arguing they offered to take the Neo to Tacx tomorrow, to test it and to get Tacx’s opinion. If Tacx says it is not normal, I’ll get a new one (my third). If they agree with van Herwerden and say it is normal (which would mean that the Neo is not meant to be quiet), I will not get a new one. I’ll keep you updated.
Same sound here Lee! I find this sound quite irritating tbh…I need to send my Neo back. What a pain! And I also have that sound Takura described on his post from the 26/10 with the video on dropbox (same rattle when you remove the bike from the Neo and just spin the metal wheel by hand)! Combo, I win!
Exactly the same problem hear. You don’t only hear the vibrating, you can feel it. link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
And for the “fitting” problem – good luck with discbrakes. I have dismounted mine, cause I thought that it might have caused the vibrating, but it didn’t. Unfortunately the discbrake also scratched the unit, because otherwise I would have just sent it back.
Well, if there’s anyone in the States that’s brave enough to pre-order a Neo after reading all of these comments, Trisports.com is offering a 20% discount right now through Nov 1. Makes the Neo US $1280, with free shipping.
It might not be the bike. Try it without the bike: set the slope to -2% or so, and give the metal disc a spin. If you still hear the noise, it’s the Neo.
After reading these comments I have now cancelled my pre-order for the Neo as Tacx, once again, has only managed to send a few units to the UK as they still have not got production issues sorted. I have been waiting for almost two months now with delay after delay and whilst irritating I think I should count my lucky stars given the problems encountered by those that did receive them in the UK. From what I have been told the Neos that arrived in the UK were demo units for stores that should not have been sold to consumers but that hasn’t stopped certain franchises for selling them on from a sufficient allocation. Neos available in the UK now just are the demo units with the next Tacx delivery targetting mid Nov and it would not be a surprise if that slips for the fifth time.
Really wanted a Neo but even waiting a while there is no way to be sure you don’t get a demo minger and the subsequent dramas. thinking a kickr is the way to go, after all better the devil you know.
So I had a sit down and think about this last night. Then emailed my LBS who has agreed to take back my second unit and give me a refund. I’m out boys.
I really wanted it to be the “ultimate indoor trainer” but I think I’ve been a little blinded to the reality because of the new-and-shiny placebo :)
The fact is – I bought new cassette, chain and chainrings for my indoor bike. I also put a new cassette on the kickr. As a result, the kickr is riding as smooth as silk. We’re now splitting hairs, but even my first neo (no vibrations and usually no gumball noise until hot) isn’t as smooth, you can feel the very small undulations on a crank rotation where its going over each of the magnets. Its very slight, very slight indeed and if the neo was OK in other respects it certainly isn’t a reason for not buying it. However the fact remains my kickr is smoother. I wish I’d changed the chainrings ages ago :)
The original biggest appeal to me was the lateral movement. Having ridden both back to back I’ve now realised that I don’t like it. I thought it would be more natural but perhaps I’m too used to the kickr. Certainly I think the Neo will be better for full on power out of the saddle moments and less chance of frame damage. Perhaps if they could tighten up the lateral movement resistance it would be best of both worlds.
With my kickr, I run it lower than the road-wheel-setting. My indoor bike is a supersix evo and its geometry leads itself to tiring arms as I’m constantly “falling forwards” on it – there’s no rearward g-force to compensate indoors. So as a result I have lowered the rear on the kickr and its perfect. With the Neo there is no rear adjustment so I had to use a front riser block. And frankly, it made getting on/off awkward. Specifically to me, I use an overhead projector and the height of the Neo means I get a shadow of my head bottom of the screen :) Thats not the fault of the neo but worth mentioning the kickr is a bit more flexible with regards height and adjustability.
The Neo does not track power or react as fast as the kickr when using TrainerRoad. I daresay this will get fixed eventually but I’m not sure I want to risk the expectation – TrainerRoad is my main training application.
Lastly, I bought the Neo so the wife had something quiet to ride on indoors whilst watching TV. She just likes to dial in a target power on the kickr and ride to that. The wahoo app is excellent for this, whereas the tacx training app is not as friendly. She wants to use the wahoo one which cannot control the Neo. And of course, even with the gremlin sounds removed, there is still a fair bit of drive train noise.
Considering buying her a kickr snap – would certainly make life easier for her and my son to swap bikes on the trainer; the wheel off design is more suited to a guy who has no issues removing a rear wheel and in order to make a wheel off trainer silent you need to know how to reindex quickly. Thats not them.
@Lee. Sorry to see you go, your feedback through the last few weeks has been very interesting and thorough. I can’t argue with any of your reasons for going back to the KickR.
Personally I watched DC’s videos of KickR noise levels and other videos from other sources. The faster it went the more noise the KickR made. When on the big ring applying pressure the videos make it sound like an air raid siren being steadily wound up. Having now owned a trainer, spent time listening to noises and recording them I have a greater appreciation for the fact these videos can over exaggerate noise levels. But I’m still not sure that a KickR with it’s “air raid siren” type noise would work within our flat, hopefully I don’t end up finding out – lol.
I’ve never used the TACX App to control the trainer. Thanks for reminding me that this exists and that I should have a play with it. Currently I’m using Zwift for everything trainer oriented, doing the odd free ride and trying out their training plans. If they keep developing Zwift it could be all I ever need.
Currently TACX are in direct contact and sending out new equipment to try to resolve my issue. I’m obviously very concerned that the next unit is broken too / has another different issue but definitely willing to give sorting this out a go as the potential goal is a trainer that does everything I need. Since TACX got in touch they have been very good and the fact they are working direct with me (rather than hiding behind a supply chain) is very positive and deserves Kudos.
I would be paranoid that there are no “good” units and that these issues are there all the time, just that some people don’t know any different or don’t like to complain. However Ray has a good one and he knows exactly what to expect and what to look for, he analyses every detail in a depth I couldn’t dream of and has a vast knowledge of this market. So this proves that the dream machines are out there.
Good luck with the KickR mate. Thanks for all the feedback over the last month / two.
The deal with noise…..and this would apply to the Neo (or any controllable resistance trainer) as well as KICKR…
simply find your quietest gear !
For me, I never use the big ring. Always the 36 and about 3/4 down the cassette. You are right in that the noise of the kickr is related to the speed you spin it at, so just don’t spin it fast ;-)
Lee, thanks a lot for all the information you have been sharing.
I am going to try again – swap my second Tacx Neo for a third… However, I must say that I have been hesitating to stay with Tacx. But the Wahoo Kickr I had before simply made too much whining noise and also vibrated too much for my wooden floor.
(Anybody seen reviews yet of the new Elite Real Turbo Muin B+?)
I still don’t understand how you do that. When I’m riding the feel is very similar to the road and I need my big ring nearly all the time, the small ring for the hills. I just couldn’t pedal around Zwift island in the small ring all the time.
I can only imagine that you use ERG mode 100%. But I don’t understand how that works with Zwift.
ERG mode means the trainer will adjust resistance to ensure you deliver the power target requested, regardless of gear or cadence.
SIM mode is what Zwift uses by default. And yes, you would need to use the big ring :)
However, try this. Fire up Zwift, search for controllable trainer and add your Neo. You will see that Zwift automatically adds power and cadence as well as the controllable trainer. Now unselect the controllable trainer.
You are now running with Zwift using the Neo for cadence and as a power meter. Whilst it won’t adjust the resistance for you, you can now sit in a comfortable quiet/smooth gear. If you kept your cadence and effort constant, your power output in zwift will be constant, so your speed will be determined by the incline at any point.
I prefer this mode actually. On the island especially one minute you have very hard resistance, the next the “ground drops away” and you’re scrabbling for the 53/11 :)
Appreciate the idea Lee and see that this will be easier in every way (my knees love it) but to me the whole point of Zwift is to simulate a real bike ride, unless I’m using a training plan. I want to feel the hills and change those gears ;-)
You way is definitely useful and I will do it. But it’s a training excercise, not a Zwift ride to me. I may as well turn the TV off and use the TACX app.
Having read the comments here for the last month or so, I would like to share my video of my new Neo.
as you can see in the video i have the “gumball” issue. It helps to stop pedaling as you can see in the end of the video.
I am starting to be a bit worried because this is still my first unit but if I got it swaped and my second just have the vibration issue then it dosen’t matter.
My concerns are the same as Andrew “Now I have very noisy Neo and face huge hassle / cost returning it, time without a trainer (training pogrammes having to stop) and the fear that the replacement will be just as bad”
Hi Christian im helping andrew at the moment and also some other customers with the simular sound. Can you pelase send this also to support@tacx.com We just need to have this registered so we can find the correct solution on this sound (because unfortunate there are some customers having this can we might believe it could be something in the edco that we are fixing). Also for exchange (because we like to identify this) we can have a quicker solution if you report your video to our support desk.
Thank you
We have found something in the edco module that is making the cracking sound. We have had a customer greasing some parts of the Edco module and the sound you experience is GONE. Will put some information on it and will make a PDF to put it here.
1. There is plenty of space using my bike and the Neo at the rear. I’ve attached a picture to illustrate.
2. The Neo after 2 hours of medium use was quite hot inside and I could feel the hot air coming from the top vent. However no other part of the unit was hot and I expect this is as expected and normal.
My brother, who lives not far from me here on the east coast of the US, just got his Neo. He purchased it from R&A cycles in Brooklyn, N.Y. He is thrilled, so far. Like Ray’s, it is totally quiet. No inherent trainer noise, none, least of all the infamous ‘gumball’ noise. All I can hear is the chain moving and that’s pretty quiet because he’s got it zero’d in perfectly and it, the cassette, and chainrings are new. I guess he’s one of the lucky ones. Will see if that persists with time, or some noise does develop as the unit breaks in.
I have had my Kickr for over a year now and am happy with it. It is built like a tank. My first one made an obnoxious grinding noise. I sent a video recording of it to Wahoo Fitness, who said it was definitely not right, and sent me a new one shipped to my house the next day. That one has been working perfectly since.
Thank you Ray. This forum is the most informative source of bike product info online. There is nothing else like it, as far as I know. We are now in, or at least heading into the indoor trainer season. Wahoo Fitness had some initial problems with the Kickr, their initial trainer product, and jumped all over them immediately with great customer service. I didn’t read too many complaints here about the Kickr, after it came out. I don’t know of any problems with the Snap. The Tacx Neo seems to be having a bit of product difficulty. Is it the inherent design or manufacturing problems/quality control. If Tacx were smart, they would diagnose the ‘gumball’ and other internal noise sources and communicate that info to you, Ray, so that you could share it with too many unhappy customers. Social media is very powerful in business. If allowed to continue, customer confidence in the product and company will quickly wane, some of it perhaps irretrievably. The touted forte of the Neo, its quietness, seems to be too unreliably elusive. Was it rushed to market too soon before bugs were worked out. Perhaps. Carpe Diem Tacx.
Let me tell you about my very good experiences with the TACX service … I had one of those noisy NEOs myself. I made a video / soundfile with the noise, contacted the TACX service and sent them the video. They ask the obvious question about new / old chain / cassette combo and when I confirmed that both are brand-new we made an appointment for me to come directly to the Netherlands for a swap. Luckily I have had the time and the opportunity to go there by car living in northern Germany.
It was a very nice welcome yesterday at TACX and the swap took just 5 minutes. Did the first longer ride today and everything is working perfectly. No noise, absolutely quiet, only the sound of chain / cassette which, in my opinion, sound louder anyway riding indoors compared to riding outside. And, of course, it all depends on how well maintained and adjusted the whole drivetrain is.
Bottomline … TACX may have some technical and / or quality problems with the NEO. But I am sure they will work it out soon. And for the service at TACX a huge “thumbs up” from me! Thanks again.
Hi All, i just want to explain that the issues we have seen are reported are mostly here and some on our Forum. It makes sence because everybody is following this site (because it is has the most realistic reviews) and it is open for any comments. The sound that Andrew (and 4 other customers have reported, (at this point we do not have more reports to this specific sound, not saying that there are not other customers with this sound) is under investigation and might be something small that causes this sound (we are not sure yet) Therefore it is also important for us (as Andi is mentioning) to report this at our support@tacx.com website so we can actually help customers out the best we can.
I assume Tacx already received back some Neo’s that have these problems. If not: I returned two Neo’s to Van Herwerden (yesterday and today). The first produces a sound that is much like the soundfile Lee and Andrew posted earlier on this thread. (Either the Gumball problem or a problem with the edco thing as I understand from comment #714.) The second produces the sound/vibration as described above by Lee, Adam, myself and a few others. Van Herwerden will bring the second one to Tacx tomorrow. Tacx support: I also emailed you about this. Hope you will find solutions. (I want to continue my training…)
Hello… so far so good. I have waited nearly 7 weeks for my Neo (in the UK) – it arrived this morning!! Attached bike – very simple and quick setup (Shimano 11speed). Did an hour before work !! Absolutely fine, amazing, quiet, incredible in my humble opinion. It connected to the Garmin 1000, Zwift (PC Win10), the Polar V800 even picked it up perfectly (well done Polar) and Viiiiva displayed HR on all connected devices. This Neo is apparently from the batch that arrived at the UK Tacx distributor (Fisher) this week from the Netherlands – I decided to wait for this new batch. I’ll give it another test tonight and hopefully no issues.
NB – I decided not to update firmware it has 0.3.1 / 96.1.2 / 0.4.2, the latest is 0.3.2 / 0.2.1 / 0.4.2.
This is a good day with lots of positive feedback filtering down.
I did the Software update Martin. It’s very strange in that it keeps asking you to turn BT off on your device every 25%, but it worked ok and afterwards I can’t tell the difference (via Zwift). I think it has some important improvements for TR users though.
That is normal behaviour. This is to install the bootloader in the software. After this (and maybe possible further updates) you dont have to do this anymore. Already explained some changes some chats above
Hi Mindz, this is absolute normal. These are the magnets you hear and there is always some sound from the electro magnets driver the neo if you go downhill for example (the same like an electrical bike)
Interesting. My first Neo did not make this buzzing sound, and the sound my second one makes is similar to this – and it appears also to be similar to the sound reported by Lee (comment #688). Mindz: do you also feel vibration through the bars of your bike?
Could there be a similar source of the problem, which manifests itself in various levels of sound and vibration? When is it normal and when is it not normal? Why did my first Neo not make this sound?
Hi Guys, been following this thread for awhile now. Had my Neo for a few weeks bought from the same LBS as Lee. I am posting on here to register that mine is also making all sorts of wierd and wonderful noises as well. I will try and get some recordings of them as some of them aren’t what have been reported on here yet. When the resistance goes on above say 250 watts there is a deep droning noise along with the vibration it almost feels like something is out of balance, like when your balancing goes on your car wheels, if that makes sense. Also sometimes when I am up out of my saddle with this higher resistance it creaks and groans like something is about to break.
I am also having a mare trying to index the gears, which is really annoying as it makes identifying these noises hard, is it the indexing or is it the unit. I get the gears sorted on the smaller cogs but they are out in the middle of the cassette or vice vera, today i had the middle ok but once the gears were changed everything went clanky its as though the spindle itself isnt square. I have also found that if i am on the small chan ring there isnt any noise but as soon as i move to the large chain ring things go out, maybe its not the indexing and its the speed that is causing the sound to occur, I dont know its hard to pedal and have my ear by the cassette at the same time. As I am having to make such big adjustments it means i will have to re index again when i put the wheel back on.
As i say I will try and get some recordings of these noises for the record as much as anything else.
I’m writing to you through this forum because my question is specifically related to the Neo and I know for a certainty that you are reading this forum. I live in the San Francisco Bay area in California and when I check the Tacx site for a list of dealers, the nearest is 875 kilometers away. So, clearly, my best option if I want a Neo is to order one through an online retailer. However, if it develops problems, I cannot simply jump in the car and return it to my local shop. I certainly don’t want to pay for shipping a defective unit back to the online retailer or to the nearest dealer. Do I have the assurance of Tacx that they will replace a defective unit free of charge, by mail, if needed?
I have already posted this video link as an answer of a previous comment, but just realized, it is so far up the comment list already, that I’m posting it again, just to show, there are others with the same problem.
It is concerns the grinding sound/vibration.
p.s. intensity slightly changes with cadence link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
What you didn’t show was increase in cadence. Big ring and one of the smallest sprockets to drive the internals faster. At about 90 cadence the vibration stopped for me but soon as I slowed the cadence (ie spinning bits inside the Neo) the groaning came back.
I’m posting to redress the balance a bit with all the talk of noise, and to share my experience.
After swapping a chain which turned out to be pretty stretched, and putting an old SRAM force 10s cassette on, my Neo is essentially silent bar a bit of whirring you’d expect from spinning bits. All noise was chain-line related. A 10s ultegra cassette I tried ridiculously noisy, maybe it was well worn, but I don’t think it’s had that much use.
I’ve also tried my good bike with da9000 and a SRAM XG1190 11s cassette, that’s also silent.
My fan is far noisier, ironically noise isn’t really a concern for me but it would annoy me.
I’ve done a comparison to a P2MAX power meter and it’s pretty close/close enough when averaged, but what does erk me is that the cadence sensing algorithm is all over the place. My Garmin using a crank sensor reads solidly, but the Neo will jump around -+5 rpm of what the Garmin is reading.
The Neo power reading is a bit erratic, I’m not sure how Neo determines power but if (as you’d expect) it’s a function of the cadence it reads than that would be why; especially if the Neo then adjusts the resistance based on these inaccurate power readings.
I haven’t updated the firmware yet due to being IOS only, so I’ll have to find a generous apple-ite to lend me their iPad. It maybe that some of these cadence/power issues are addressed in the new firmware.
I’ll update once I’ve done the update.
Noticed too that cadence seems less reliable than e.g. on the KICKR.
On the other hand, by the laws of physics, cadence is needed for calculating power only for pedal/crank/spider-based power meters. As the Neo is (or includes) essentially a hub-based power meter, they will wither use strain gauges for torque/force and “wheel” rotation or – I assume – compute from the electricity generated by the magnets.
Thats a misleading post. The KICKR does not give you cadence !!
For what its worth, I had no issues with the cadence output on the Neo under “normal training” scenarios. It only dropped out if I was riding a VR/film and did a ridiculously soft pedal or something. When under load, I found the cadence quite accurate.
Given that the Neo is a tight fit on many bikes (and won’t fit on others!!), squeezing in a traditional speed/cadence sensor may not be possible. So having cadence output by the Neo is a big win I think.
Or, do what Wahoo do (on the KICKR 11sp kit) – use a crank (or shoe!!) based small accelerometer. No issues with trainers or bike fitments then :)
Oops, sorry, yes, you are right that the KICKR doesn’t give cadence, thanks for pointing out.
Still, the dedicated cadence sensors and power meters that output cadence that I have experienced have been always within I’d guess 1 to 2 rpm. The Neo is often not in that range, whether that is significant will depend on the user. But well, my post was more about the power calculation anyway. ;-)
Do Tacx trainers generally output cadence or is it just the Neo? Wondering whether they are using cadence for the virtual flywheel?
If you look at the shop you’ll see they sell a 10sp KICKR (no cadence) and an 11sp KICKR (with cadence).
What is this mysterious 11sp cassette cadence sensor you may ask ;-) ??
Well, no its just that they bundle their Wahoo RPM sensor in the 11sp box.
link to uk.wahoofitness.com
Look at the features panel, specifically the “Measures Speed, Distance, Power and Cadence”:
“Get all your vital cycling metrics on your indoor ride. Cadence only available when paired with a Wahoo RPM. 11 speed model includes an RPM and the 10 speed model does not.”
Fwiw, to a question somewhere in there on other Tacx trainers providing cadence – yes, they do an estimate (i.e. Vortex, Satori, Bushido, Genius, etc…). It’s not foolproof, but for 98% of riding situations it works well (pretty similar to PowerTap hub cadence).
Here is a view of the dirvetrain side of the Neo after removing the Freehub.
Don’t try this by yourself! You need a special puller to get the disc detached from the Neo…
Even though I’m currently not happy with my Neo, I appreciate the Tacx guys replying on this forum additionally to dealing per email with the affected customers.
Hey I have been reading and following from the sidelines about the comments/ experiences with the Tacx Neo but I now only see comments up to October 13th and nothing later? I was reading the comments earlier today and at that time everything was up to date?? Thanks for any insight.
We have found the issue related to the cracking sound. It is not in the neo but in the Edco module ring that is on the axle. I’ll but a solution on it at the end of the day (will make a short PDF)
Good news! Does it mean that at least one of the two Neo’s that I returned can be fixed? But which one?
Which noise do you mean? The noise of which Christian Bergman posted a soundfile earlier? (Similar to the noise my first Neo makes.) Or the noise Lee posted a soundfile of? (Similar to the noise of my second Neo?)
I saw a post (#681) saying that a Shiv TT won’t fit on the Neo. Is that true? I ride a size large 2013 Shiv TT. If that frame and others won’t fit is Tacx planning a fix? That issue would keep me from getting a Neo. I need to be able to fit my race bikes on my trainer.
Hi Toby, yes this is an important question, because NOT all bikes will fit on it
link to tacx.com
Text:
I addition, the NEO is placed in between your rear fork. Unfortunately, the NEO doesn’t fit some bikes with an integrated rear brake. To find out if the NEO fits in between the rear fork of your bike, you can use one of the stencils below. link to wwwstatic3.tacx.nl link to wwwstatic3.tacx.nl
Most of the time-trial bikes have special smaller frames that will not fit. Because there are so many different sizes these adapters have been made so that our customers can check it.
Thanks for showing me the templates Tacx. Very disappointed to confirm that the Shiv TT will NOT fit on the Neo. The template bumps the chain stays and the seat stays. I thought I’d found my new trainer. Back to my 10 year old Fortius.
A Friend of mine raised the front wheel by a little peace of rubber in 4-5cm height. With that he is able to ride his Shiv in the Neo… Unfortunately now he is always climbing up to 5%… :-) I think a little redesign on the outer plastik shell would make much more bikes (TT) fit in the Neo… I could ask him for a photo if you would like to…
Hi All, so on that “cracking” sound of the Neo, we have had 2 customers using attached solution and all was very fluent and no sound. We are still doing some checks on it but it this seems to be the fix. link to tacxdata.com
Thanks for that. Glad one of the noises is figured out, but, to be clear for my simple brain, this isn’t the only noise issue right? The gumball noise people are talking about is still real? Are new units being tested for this before leaving the factory? Or are you guys still shipping units as they are made? I’d like to pre order from somewhere with a 20% off code that expires in a few days but only if I can be assured you will not be sending out any more units until this issue has been taken care of and me risk getting a lemon. Otherwise, I might have to go with Kickr, unfortunately, because I hate the whirring sound their unit makes as well. Thanks for being so responsive!
I believe this fix is for the “gumball” sound. So as far as I know there are 3 issues/sounds
1. Weld inside the drum leading to a metallic sound. I don’t believe anyone has really reported this though, the weld was originally offered up as the solution for the next sound……which is…….
2. ….the “gumball” sound, which turns out to be a problem with the EDCO hub. That makes more sense to me because I never believed 0.5mm pieces of weld would make that cracking sound. Last up…..
3. …..the brrrr brrrr brrrr sound which also vibrates right through the frame. No-one is offering up a reason for this right now I think.
My LBS is returning all stock to the distributor with a “Don’t send any more until they are known to be fine” remit :)
Hi Joe, i can only say that we have had people with this sound and it was solved with this solution. We did not get so much but 2 of them this was the solution, and Andrew is also checking something on this. The other sound is still checked. Looking to deliveries (the demand is so high) that pre-ordering can also take some time. We had some comments on that. It just depends on how fast you need one.
the number 3 Sound are friking me out! I´m start to be MAD with it. It feels the bike have some probem but it is the NEO problema. GRRRR GRRRR GRRRR , rBrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Sorry, but this is not silence, this is noise! :(
On the sound file Tacx posted with the fix for the “gumball” sound you also can hear a whistle like sound (similar to an old kettle that is close to boiling) is that the sound that is related to the metallic sound caused by the weld residue?
You can hear it cleary at around 11 secs and again at around 18 secs. link to tacxdata.com
My Neo also whistles at a certain speed with a certain cadence. I think it is nothing to worry about. As far as I understood from my conversations with Tacx, it is simply air being pushed through somewhere at the spinning disc.
So this ‘fix’ offered is to correct one of several abnormal sounds coming from many, but not all, of recently manufactured Neo trainers. Was this lubricant supposed to have been applied to the Edco hub at their factory or by Tacx during assembly of the Neo? Is one to assume that quiet Neo’s have the necessary lubricant already in place? Over years of reasonable use, will this Edco hub need maintenance with re-application of lubricant? I for one, had not heard of this Edco hub before the firestorm of this fiasco, having used Shimano hubs for many years.
Tacx – so far, your explanations and advise are as skimpy as the manual that came with the Neo and are woefully inadequate.
Hi Ron, how often have you used your Neo?
If you ride it only a couple of times over winter, then you don’t need to worry, thinkinside no weather condtions will wash out the grease…
I own mine now since 9 weeks and I already did 59 rides on it without any problem…
due to my new NEO I don’t have any noise anymore, thankfully. But of course I “had to” check this proposal out by myself.
And what I noticed was that the 5mm bolt was not been tightened very strongly. I could loosen it very easily … I don’t checked it with a torque wrench, of course but I had a look at the Shimano manuals for the required tightening torque for freehub bodies and it is 45 – 50 n-m.
I don’t know the value for EDCO but maybe this might be source of some noises that occurs?
Ok, I must say this is more a question of “feeling” but maybe worth a second look?
And speaking of EDCO … EDCO is in general a company with high quality products when it comes to hubs, not any worse as Shimano for example.
I don’t know if their is an official limit… but I would not want to put 45 – 50 nm on a 5mm hex. Especially considering that the skewer, when tightened, will be adding extra pressure on this area.
Question for Neo owners using Zwift. First a little background.
A few days ago a friend joined Zwift and attached his TACX Blue Motion “dumb” trainer. He did a few laps around Watopia and his best lap was 19:17, this compared to my best of 16:31 and was we both thought a fairly accurate representation of performance on the road.
Then we drilled down a bit and noticed that he went up the main hill (1 mile after the start) in 2:30. My best is around 3:15. 45 seconds slower ! As I’d be reasonably quicker up any hill in real life this seemed odd but I just put this behind me and forgot about it until last night. I honestly thought my Neo was obviously right and he’d set something up wrong – lol.
Yesterday evening however my club had a Zwift event with many people having a go at climbing that first hill on Watopia. This time using the Wahoo KickR. And this time those I usually directly ride with were recording 2:20 – 2:35 (unfortunately I wasn’t there for a direct comparison). This again is massively faster than I seem capable of on the Neo.
Is there a chance I’ve somehow set the Neo or Zwift up incorrectly ? I’ve left all the settings like Trainer Resistance alone. At the first screen at the top left I select the “Power” option from the 2 available.
I’ve checked my Strava and I know I am working pretty hard, know I can definitely go faster, but 30% faster…. Pretty unlikely.
Firstly I’d discount your mate’s Blue Motion ride. Waaaay too many variables.
Assuming the KICKR was reasonably accurate, the only way you will ever know whats going on is to pull their data from Strava (assuming they uploaded it), go to analysis and focus on just the hill climb, and make a note of their average power.
Then do the same for yourself.
The power will be recorded correctly regardless of what settings or personal details have been entered into Zwift. Its the only true absolute.
If you have a club friend of similar build/weight and you think you are quicker up the hills in real life, then it stands to reason your power figure should be higher. Its power to weight ratio.
Unfortunately I don’t think anything was recorded in Strava. But they were doing one off “sprints” up the climb, so I think I need to have a go at this myself. See what I can do in 150 seconds if I aren’t considering riding another 2/3 laps afterwards….
Question, did you adjust the weight in the riders profile after changing from rider to rider doing the Zwift climb? If not, this migth be the answer! As Lee said, power/weight ratio!
Good news. Tacx fixed my first Neo this morning (Edco problem, see for example the soundfile by Christian Bergman). Trained for 45 mins this evening, and it’s quiet! The coming days I’ll be doing some more extensive interval training – I’ll let you know whether it stays quiet. So far, excellent service from Tacx.
No whistle sound also anymore? Because i will just grease the edco ring also if that’s the solution. Pretty simple action and good to know for future maintenance
No, as far as I understand, the whistle sound is nothing to worry about and caused by air being pushed through somewhere at the spinning disc. (An explanation that makes sense, as it only manifests itself at certain speed/cadences.)
I received the new Neo yesterday and also had a fix to try on the Old one (with the Gumball issue).
Firstly I followed the instructions from TACX to replace the EDCO Hub. I’m not a bike engineer, but the instructions were very basic and I struggled, I wasn’t even sure if I should be greasing parts myself (as shown in pictures) but if that’s the case I wasn’t supplied any grease. Eventually I worked out what needed to be done and the hub was off. Unfortunately the new hub would not go on with the 2 parts in place that were there before. Very odd. So I installed it with 1 of the 2 which I only tried because it fitted perfectly.
So at the end of the job I had one of these left over.
Unfortunately when all fully reassembled, the freewheel no longer works. I had a good look over everything and apart from the spare part I’ve no idea what to do differently. And I can’t work out how that part fitted in or what it had to do with the freewheel. Potentially it’s a faulty hub, most likely it’s me not quite understanding the gaps in the instructions.
SO NEO 1 is now useless and unusable.
Onto NEO 2.
Cassette off…. Cassette on….. Changed gear a few times. Horrendous BONESAWING vibration through the entire Neo / Bike Frame / Me.
Before the issue was a loud noise, but at least the Neo was useable. This Bonesawing makes the bike unusable straight away. You just can’t ride the bike at all in the lower gears with the big ring. I got the Mrs to test too and she said the same thing.
So…. 1 morning wasted. Covered in grease. 2 Neo’s. Neither work. No way to train at all.
(Also having trouble posting this – perhaps due to image links – will try with them taken out)
I did exactly the same yesterday evening in front of my evening ride, even so I did not have this cracking sounds. Very sorry for you that you had so much problems, but I did all the maintenance in 10 Minutes without having any problem.
I do understand you right? You honestly demounted the freehub and mounted it together with one ring left over and wonder that your trainer is not working anymore?
You had two of this black rings? The one in the pic above belongs to the axis and you have to put him into the backend of the Edco Hub. You did that?
I was fed up this morning so may have another go with the old Neo in the morning. The new Neo is seriously faulty though and the Bonesawing issue is far worse than some clanking.
If i write back end, I mean back end. The rear part of the Edco Hub (the part you put into the sprocket of the trainer), this is where the black ring supposed to be…
Hmmm … I don’t fully understand your problem … just follow the instruction from Tacx to grease the ring is very simple. You remove the freehub body, pull the ring from the axle, put on some greasy (which you, obviously don’t have), put the ring back on the axle and put the freehub body back again. It will not fit at first attempt so you must rotate it slightly to get the paws into place. Don’t remove any paws or springs or whatever from the system or add any spacers. Then it should work again without problems. Maybe you can get a little bit of grease from your local bike shop? Have another look at it and try it again.
Unlikely to be a faulty hub mate as the ratchet/pawl system is pretty basic. Although easy to get a pawl out of shape. If you’re feeling brave why not just take the edco from the new sawbone model and stick it on your older gumball model (lol)
conversely, ordered a KICKR snap for the wife and lad yesterday. Arrived today, out of the box, bike on, firmware updated and ready to rock.
I think that wheel off trainers really sort someone who
a) has a dedicated indoor trainer bike (me)
b) has the patience/knowledge on how to reindex his cassette every time a swap is made…
c) or…just doesn’t ride at all outside, thus removing the need to swap and reindex.
Received my Neo yesterday (UK). Set it up this morning. First impressions below.
Setup: I have zero experience with the mechanical side of bikes and generally either get the LBS to do things or just have a go and hope what I try works. This was the latter. I didn’t find it super difficult to put the cassette on but it was a bit annoying and fiddly. Took about 30min but some of that was me faffing. If you know what you are doing then its a very quick job as there isn’t that much to do.
Ride: I’ve only been on it for 30min so experience is limited. Will have a longer ride tomorrow. Initial impression is that it’s noisier than I thought it would be. Theres a low level humming that comes from the unit which does get louder the harder you peddle. It’s quieter than a wheel on trainer but not as quiet as I was led to believe. It will be interesting to see if I get any complaints from neighbours. I really hope I don’t get any complaints as I’m pinning my hopes for winter training on the neo.
The ride itself was ok. I honestly need to spend more time on it. I found it took about a second or two to adjust to changes in resistance. I didn’t find it very realistic truth be told. It promises road feel but it feels like pushing through air to me. I may change my mind on it though as I use it more.
Not sure if I like the rocking side to side. Possibly one of those things you need to get used to.
Will hook it up to Zwift and TR tomorrow and see how it goes. I also need to do the firmware update. Will add more impressions to this thread as I go.
Well, I couldn’t do it. With all these unknowns, I had to order a Kickr. I’m out guys. If the downstairs neighbors complain due to noise, I’ll pick up a Neo in the future once the kinks get worked out. Good luck everyone!
Ray– any idea when your next set of trainer recs are coming out for the 2015/2016 guide? I saw you say you were just waiting on the mid-level recs since one unit hadn’t arrived yet. Have you decided on who wins as to Kickr vs Neo yet for this year? What are you going to be recommending for the high price range?
Probably a wise choice. Certainly all of these mechanical issues will get sorted. Eventually. But look at the aggro Andrew has had in terms of just being around for collection/delivery and swapping one set of issues for another.
The only thing which is an unknown right now is whether resistance changes and smoothness will ever be as good in TrainerRoad as it is on the KICKR. The guys at TrainerRoad told me that the big heavy flywheel on the KICKR accounts for a *lot*.
If the mechanicals get sorted and the TrainerRoad improved then its going to be a very good trainer indeed. But then again it is considerably more expensive than a KICKR (every now and then Wiggle do 17% discounts and the KICKR can be had in the UK for around £740)
I don’t forsee a direct winner between the KICKR and the NEO. The reason is that there’s such significant overlap, but also a key difference (noise, price depending on region) that it’s going to be a bit of a ‘buyers decision’ between those two at the top.
In some ways the KICKR will be the default (primarily due to cheaper price in most places, and currently better app compat), but that others will want to spend more for lesser noise reasons.
Everyone…don’t overlook the Elite Real Turbo Muin B+, which I’m sure will also be in the high-end category. If the connectivity of the unit pans out vis-a-vis all the popular 3p apps, then this will be a real competitor to the Kickr. It has the benefit of the flywheel, plus the added realism provided by fluid technology.
Although, as I live in the States, I’m as fearful of warranty/tech support from Elite as I am from Tacx.
+1 on high hopes for Ray’s observations and musings on the Elite Real Turbo Muin B+. I’ve been ready to pre order (about a dozen times!) on the Neo, but have been holding back till I see the winter trainer post. At this point it looks like it’s between the Kickr and the Elite for me this winter. Really wanted the Neo to be it though…
I’m going to spend another hour / 3 with the old trainer tomorrow and see if I can get it back working with some time, knowledge from today and one of the two hubs.
Fun way to spend a weekend. At least Bond was good this afternoon. Cheered me up a bit.
Did anyone have a chance to compare pedal stroke smoothness of Neo and Elite Real Turbo Muin B+ 2016 ? I mean how it ‘feels’. Neo has 125kg *virtual* flywheel, Real Turbo Muin has 7kg *real* flywheel rotating in silicone oil. I had Elite Qubo Power Fluid before, it was really smooth. Nice. Now I have Vortex Smart TDF and does not like its pedal stroke at all, it’s unnatural and not smooth. If Neo is more like Vortex Smart than fluid in this question then I’d definitely purchase Real Turbo Muin. Surely if it works correctly with TrainerRoad and Zwift ;)
Difficult choice when it’s impossible to test this ‘feel’ of pedal stroke before placing my order… ;)
I couldn’t wait for morning. Back on a buzz from Bond and knowing I wouldn’t sleep until I’d tried to sort this out. So back out the old Neo and here we go.
Firstly I believe that the 2 plastic rings is a red herring and that one came from the new EDCO hub and one from the old, Whichever way you look at it (and I did for 20 minutes) only 1 will fit inside.
With this in mind I tried BOTH EDCO Hubs (old and the new) only to find that the newly supplied one does not fit the old Neo. It looks identical in every way, however when you tighten it up the freewheel will not spin. If you put the old one back on and tighten it up the freewheel works fine. So basically I was doing things right previously and had spent most of my morning trying to get a square peg into a round hole.
So I’ve put the old Neo back together and it works as before with the clanging noise. In fact it seems to now make a small rubbing noise too from somewhere.
The “New Neo” is simply put on one side. The Bonesawing sensation described previously is simply too terrible to try again.
No idea what happens next. I’d still love to have a Neo that worked and I appreciate everything that TACX are doing to try to sort this out, but even they must be getting worn out now.
Good morning Andrew,
hope you could sleep, after you have solved the mystery :) . My neo is also making the bonesaw-noise (video to be found here somewhere) and I got an email from Tacx, telling me that it has to be changed. As I’m currently abroad, I will only have the chance to return it around the middle of the month and I’m hoping that I’ll get a fine unit in exchange (and hopefully without a lot of delay). I keep my hopes up, especially after I’ve seen a video dealing with Zwift yesterday, where I was remembered of the whiningly sound the Kickr does.(which I liked a lot, if it wasn’t for this sound)
Check at 1:40 link to youtube.com
Just greased the free hub and can happily say my noise is gone … and the free wheel is also much less noisy than it was, too. (From how it’s constructed this seems to be a Tacx issue and not an Edco issue.)
To my ears my Neo is now by far less noisy than my KICKR (which I admittedly rode with the larger chainring because the weight of their flywheel just wasn’t enough for me to produce enough inertia and a nice enough feeling on the smaller ring),
and according to my evaluation it’s also more responsive and smoother with TR (although only with OS X and not in iOS),
so I have absolutely no reason to go back to the KICKR at this moment …. except that the seat stays of my training bike hit the Neo … :-)
Concerning Elite Real Turbo Muin … I had the non-real, dumb Turbo Muin before the KICKR, and that was in some aspects a nightmare, much too progressive and changing power characteristics which made finding the right gear for a specific target power difficult, deadly smooth feeling that felt more like walking through mud than riding on the road, and noise of the fluid that would not disturb the neighbors but myself, so, clearly not wanting to go back to Elite either, even though the first issue should of course be solved in their smart version.
Always interesting to hear from others and their perspectives; I only ride the KICKR in the small ring as its the smoothest gear combination. No complaints as regards inertia. And of course, this makes it a quieter experience for me.
As for the Elite trainer……I was looking at their RealAxiom B+ this morning. Almost in pure desperation.
I bought a KICKR Snap for the wife/son to use and this is massively inaccurate in power. The Snap was set to 150W yet I was having to do 220W to achieve this. This would make riding Zwift a nightmare as the trainer would absolutely pile on the resistance/effort going up hills.
Why can no-one make a trainer that just WORKS ??!!! So chances are I could try an Elite and just find a whole load of faults with that too.
Lee, Takura – thanks for your comments about Elite Muin! It’s obvious that this unit also has his own cons. By the way, I found one right on the promo video: link to youtube.com
1:26, see how awfully magnetic “micro variation” is constructed! It’s a magnet moving on a thread, some kind of “screw-gear”. So it definitely can’t change resistance fast enough, from 0% to, say, 8%. Magnet should move to the correct place and it will take time, I guess 10-20-30sec.
Lee, I deeply understand your words “Why can no-one make a trainer that just WORKS”, I feel the same. All smart trainers now are far away from perfection. So now [my] choice is only among “less evil” variants ;(
Yesterday I was looking at Wahoo Snap thinking maybe it’s an appropriate compromise. Today I’ve read your comment and understood I was wrong ;) Big thanks for the info!
How do you think Tacx Genius Smart is better than Vortex Smart in question of smooth pedal stroke? Or they are similar?
There are trainer that are working even better then a kickr or a tacx Neo…
I would spend all my time on my Cyclus2 if it would be not so loud like the kickr… link to cyclus2.com
That is why I love my new Neo so much…
My curiosity led me to explore the Cyclus 2. Yikes!!! – 8300 Euros list price……and as loud as the Kickr. For that price it should be totally silent and maybe even invisible. Lifestyles of the rich and famous……….
What you get with the Cyclus2 is a calibrated device wich measures wattage in a range of 1% accuracy. So you cannot compare this to any other trainer out there.
If you are going to have repeatable tests wich are on point, there is no other trainer out there where you can put on your own bike. And yes, Cyclus2 is loud, not as loud as the Kickr, but only a little bit under his noise, so far away from silent.
And 8300€ seems to be a lot of money, but if you are training athletes (triathletes and cyclists) and do over 100+ FTP tests in a year, wich they pay for, accuracy is for what you go… And by the way for my training at home, I love my Neo and for that it is all I need….
Its a different tool for a different job. There is also the choice of The Wattbike, a UK designed, British Cycling/UCI used, accurate, smooth, robust (they have them in consumer public gyms over here). £2250 so a “bargain” compared to that Cyclus2. They give you all the cycling dynamics you could need.
However they are also
a) Heavy and difficult to store
b) Whilst adjustable etc never going to be the same as your road/TT bike
c) Not electronically resistance controlled
d) Uses a mixture of air resistance and magnetic. I found it “a little odd”
e) Noisy
Fantastic bit of kit, but perhaps more suited to an indoor gym than a guy riding Zwift in front of his TV.
I want the Neo to succeed as long term I think it will be a better proposition for me than the KICKR. I’m also happy my TT bike fits for example. but right now it seems we cannot get a quiet one here in the Uk……..
Does anyone have a bottom line on this? Christmas is coming. Wait another year on the NEO until bugs get worked out, ride my Kurt Kinetic, or buy a Kickr? Noise is not a problem for me so that is not a big deal NEO vs Kickr vs KKinetic. Can’t seem to decide if using a smart trainer is worth an extra 1200 to 1600 dollars to upgrade from what already can be a decent workout for me.
Is the function where the smart trainer just allows you to pedal and not look at the wattage a big deal for everyone? I just look at the watts the whole time it seems. I use sufferfest with trainerroad and my kinetic trainer.
Thanks for any help ,and thank you for this outstanding web site!
“It’s obvious that this unit also has his own cons. By the way, I found one right on the promo video: link to youtube.com
1:26, see how awfully magnetic “micro variation” is constructed! It’s a magnet moving on a thread, some kind of “screw-gear”. So it definitely can’t change resistance fast enough, from 0% to, say, 8%. Magnet should move to the correct place and it will take time, I guess 10-20-30sec.”
This is pure speculation, right? Or do you currently have a RTM B+?
Ray, please leak a little detail from your upcoming guide, are you finding it takes 10-30 seconds for the RTM B+ to change power?
Griffin,
yes, it’s only my guess from what i’ve seen in that promo video. i don’t have my own Real Turbo Muin and i didn’t have a chance to try it myself. But from the video i’ve seen the technical solution (screw-gear) which personally i do not like at all. Neo’s internals look much better and smarter from the engineer point of view.
Muin has fluid unit with progressive exponential resistance AND magnetic “micro variations”. i’m talking about only magnetic part which is responsible for (as far as i understand) huge changes in resistance especially in low speeds and big watts (jump from 0% to, say, 10% or more regardless the speed and cadence). my guess is that this unit technically can not do it fast. if i’m wrong Ray will say, from the practical point of view ;)
I can confirm that time (actually, it’d be closer to 2-3s for that range). As I posted on another thread a moment ago, it’s roughly 40-50w per 1s of movement. That’s testing with a custom TR workout that basically goes from 150w to 310w and 340w instantly. There’s some play in that it’s TR controlling it, which we’ve seen does have an impact elsewhere on other trainers.
But you can actually hear the whole trainer changing gears, sounds like a very faint Roomba as it makes the big shift (I didn’t even notice it the other day when doing other intervals over a longer shifting period).
40-50 watts per second – it is still too slow. Looks unusable for short 10-20sec full power sprints, when you jump from “regular” 200-250 watts to, say, 800-900 watts.
Also as Ray mentioned in other thread RTM B+ does not broadcasts ant+ speed/cadence/power, only supports ant+ fe-c.
Two these facts (slow resistance change, limited ant+ support) make this year RTM B+ sapless…
My Neo also have this “cracking noise” and I wanted to put some grease in the Edco Freehub like it is shown in the tacx manual above. The only thing is that i can´t remove the Freehub after removing the black propeller. I never removed a freehub before on my bikes so i´m not that experienced but i thought after removing the black propeller i only got to pull it off but obviously i am wrong. Is there somekind of a special trick or what am i doing wrong?
Greetings Sascha
Really happy for those now reporting they have solved their issues. Unfortunately I’ve had no such success. I’ve added grease to hub, even tonight lubed the chain out of desperation. But I still have the same noises and potentially it’s even making the bone sawing in smaller cogs on the big ring.
I can’t face taking it all apart again. It’s a consumer item I paid over £1000 for and it should just work. Perhaps I haven’t applied enough grease. Perhaps not to right place. But I’ve had enough tries now.
I used mine for a bit longer today with TrainerRoad. Sadly TR doesn’t record cadence properly from the Neo. Throughout the duration it stayed at 22rpm irrespective of what I did. I found the power quite difficult to get right with minor changes on my part resulting it quite big swings. Considering TR was going to form the basis of my winter training this is quite disappointing. I hope they fix this asap.
The neo itself seems ok. It’s louder than I expected from the promotional literature. There is a strong vibrating coming from the unit so I hope it doesn’t go through the floor and annoy the people downstairs.
There is also a clear revving noise on each revolution which I find a bit odd as it clearly shows the device isn’t smooth so how Tacx can claim a realistic road feel is a bit much I think.
I updated the firmware today which is a strange process of turning on/off the bluetooth on the phone. Took about 5min in total with some hangs but got there eventually.
I’m still not sure about the feel of the ride. I will do a longer ride tomorrow and report back.
I did a 2h TR ride yesterday. Had no Problem with Cadence there. You use ANT+ right? Try to put the ANT+ USB Dongle as near as you can beside to the trainer with an USB Cable… Then you will not loose the Signal…
And remember TR is not 100% ready for the NEO! Thats what they mailed me:
“We are aware of the issue with the Neo. Make sure that your firmware is update-to-date on your Tacx trainer. You can double check for updates in the Tacx app.
We are waiting on a delivery of a Neo so we can test things in house. Once we do receive the trainer for testing we will be able to workout some of the kinks. I don’t have an ETA on when the Neo will be properly supported, rest assured it’s a top priority for us.
Sorry I don’t have better news for you. Let me know if you have any other questions.”
Btw – as a interesting notable/aside, remember that Tacx does a secondary separated broadcast of speed/power/cadence onto their own ANT+ channels. So you can always simply pair TR to the dedicated ANT+ Cadence channel if you want.
I found out, that the ERG mode in TR on Ipad is way better on ANT+ then it is on Bluetooth. On Ipad may ERG mode is only working on ANT+? I will have to check this again, cause I did not ride a lot under Bluetooth…
Hmm, I haven’t played with the TR iPad version lately, but it should be an option to scan for sensors, and then you should find a Tacx Cadence sensor out there, that’s basically the cadence channel being all solo-cup. It’s designed for bike computers/apps that don’t support it on the same channel as power. But has other uses, such as this.
I had it in ‘ergo’ mode if that makes a difference. I was using the ipad app with a ant dongle in the ipad (on the handle bars) so can’t get it any closer to the neo.
I also found that when connected to the power, on stopping pedalling the cassette would continue spinning so the chain would come off. I notice in Rays video that when he stops the cassette spins down without the pedals spinning. Mine does do this if I don’t connect it to the power.
So you mean you do not have the freehub running free?
This is not like it should be. If you do not Pedal, the cassette should stay still immediately, also if the tacx Neo Disc is spinning…
Did you lube the Edco hub? Maybe you screwed the Edco hub to tight to the Neo?
When it isn’t connected to power and I stop pedalling the cassette stays still and the hub spins down pretty quickly.
When it is connected to power and I stop pedalling the cassette continues to spin and the chain slackens. If I take my feet off the pedals they spin freely until the hub stops. It’s like riding a fixed wheel where you cannot stop pedalling.
I don’t think it is too tight otherwise it would behave the same off the power as it does under it?
Mine also does this, it spins down for a long while when plugged in and as you say if I take my feet off the pedals they also turn. As yet I havent removed and greased the freehub.
This is the problem I got when I changed the EDCO hub that came fitted with the new one TACX sent me to try. I described this above.
Both NEO 1 and 2 come fitted with Hubs that freewheel. However the new Hub (spare sent by TACX) when fitted to NEO 1 = no freewheel. When the cap at the end is not fitted freewheel works, as you tighten it slowly the freewheel stopped rotating. Anything like a tightness that will secure the Hub stops the freewheel. You can even stop it with finger tightness.
I also suspect the vibration felt above is a variation of the bone sawing I describe.
It should freewheel whether you have it plugged into power or not. The chain should never go slack or come off when you stop pedalling. It should always behave just like your bike would on the road.
Andrew, nope… this is not true. If you don’t have power on the unit, the freewheel stops within 1 or two seconds… If the unit is powered on, the freewheel runs longer… Also if you are on a descent and plug of power, unit stops within verz short time, and this is how it should be….
I will rephrase my answer to be clearer. Under neither condition should the freewheel cause the chain to be pushed forward and unravel before the FD risking it being trapped in the cranks / etc.
Which is what happens to mine when I fit the spare hub and the freewheel becomes fixed.
This is getting quite ridiculous with the amount of common faults. “Mine does that too” is the new Tacx motto it seems.
My advice would be to adopt the same position with your place of purchase that my LBS has done with the distributor/Tacx – quite simply “Don’t send me another one until you’ve sorted out all of the issues.”
I’m now out – I returned mine for a full refund. However I note also that fitment on – shall we say, “unusual” bikes – is also a concern. I pickup my TT bike on Monday, so almost certainly that would be another nail in the coffin. My plan was to sit on the TT bike all over winter getting used to the position.
Don’t get too despondent guys, just remember the grass isn’t always greener. I’m already into beta firmware to get a useable trainer with the KICKR Snap I bought for the wife/son…. they all have their fair share of issues and I just think that in this niche high end sports industry it takes a good few months, maybe even a year before all niggles are ironed out, all firmware’s are stable and all apps have good sold support.
So far I can tell you, from my club now three other friends have a tacx Neo, and no one has had a problem with the Trainer. One of them failed installing the firmware the first time, but second try was successful. All trainers are silent. Two of us did the Edco hub maintenance, also without problems. Mine now has over 75h of Zwift, thats almost over 2400km of distance. The longest ride I did through Ironman Hawaii Live coverage with over 5h30 with no drops in Zwift and Neo is still silent, very responsive and does just what it has to do…
Normal talking without raising voice is absolutely no problem while standing next to the trainer… And for sure I’m not a Tacx fanboy, tested all kind of other trainers, Airstreeem, Kickr, Bushido, Cyclus2. Next to my Cyclus2 the Neo is the best Trainer I’ve ever used…
I’ve had mine in bits AGAIN tonight. Greased the hub again and used all the information / feedback above to do it flawlessly.
A 10 minutes spin seemed to have no clanking, but this means little without a longer test which I will try to do tomorrow evening. There’s a definite “roughness” in the smallest cogs when on the big ring.
To be honest I’m sure everyone’s fed up of these updates.
You say: There’s a definite “roughness” in the smallest cogs when on the big ring.
It is really hard to understand descriptions for sound or feel in words…
As you said you are using a new bike, especially for the trainer, I guess you are on a brandnew chain and cassette also? In my opinion, all you need is to index your gearing right an you will be happy…
I agree that it’s very difficult to describe what I’m experiencing. All I can say is that “bone-sawing” is a very accurate description of the issue in it’s worst form (how it is on Neo 2). This is the same thing, but milder. Gentle bone-sawing.!
Unfortunately Einundsiebzig I never claimed to be a bike engineer and still don’t. If my real bike has issues over above cleaning, lubing & tyres I take it to the LBS and let them deal with it. I even have Di2 on my main road bike to avoid any indexing issues. And before you ask, my main bike will not fit on the Neo due to Thru-Axles and Disc brakes.
As you summise everything is new on this bike, it is based on 2015 Shimano 105 (11-speed). It changes gear perfectly on the Neo, there are no “half way in/out” noises you often hear on the road when the next gear doesn’t fully engage, it’s solidly in gear with every click. I’m afraid I don’t know enough to start indexing gears to solve a problem that may / not be related to that.
With a £1000+ device I expect to just be able to put the bike on it and ride. The fact I have to fit a cassette is annoying, but ok if it works. Above that I just expect it to work. I don’t mind a recommendation for a new cassette and chain (check!), but I then expect it to work. I don’t expect to need to be a qualified bike mechanic.
With the greatest of respect Andrew, you are mis-informed regarding DI2. It is not a magical fix for indexing issues. It just allows you to index your gears easier through the shifters, however you still need to manually set your high and low stops, plus front derailleur position/height.
I do sympathise but this is what I hinted at before with regards to the suitability of a wheel-off design. I just don’t think its for all people. It is NOT just a “fit and forget”. You will always have to reindex because a cassette will never be in the same position on a trainer as it is in your wheel.
My Neo is also starting to yowl a little bit when I do cadence above 100-110 RPM with power over 200 to 250 Watts. I think this is just an airflow of the plastic turbine wheel inside the NEO… All up to 90-95 RPM is absolutly silent. My Neo also vibrated a little bit when I did efforts over 350 to 500 Watts. But this is gone since i put grease on the Edco hub ring…
If I turn the large silver disc on the Neo clockwise, the pedals are not moving. If I turn it counterclockwise, pedals move backwards…
Have you done the Edco maintenance? Maybe you did not do it right. Very important is to screw the freehub not too tight on to the Neo. Just slightly over handtight… In Nm I would say 0.5 to 1 Nm. This is enough, cause the freehub don’t need to be press screwed onto the axis.
0.5 / 1nm ? I’d like to see something official from TACX before tightening so loosely. I gently used an Allen Key just to make sure it was solid, but estimate 2/3nm. Can’t image that makes any difference.
I tried tightening the hub tighter and with the old hub the freewheel works perfectly no matter how tight. The new hub stops working with very light pressure.
Way too much. Remember how easy it was to unscrew the hubscrew… I talked to our german distributer on phone and he gave me the advice NOT to overtighten it and only to screw it that there is nomore play in between screw and edco hub.
If you tighten to much, you put pressure onto the bearings wich is not very good for a smooth running. Handtight is enough, cause you put pressure with the quick releases quite on to the dropouts, wich makes the srew almost impossible to get loose…
Have you ever mounted a hub and indexed the play of the wheel axis and bearings? If you over tight the screws there, your wheel does not rotate a single mm….
I think we all agree, that all this problems should not come up anyway…
So maybe I was only a lucky one out of a all the other Neos…
Mine has a serial Number in the fivehundrets, so pretty sure that it is one out of the first batch…
My friends Neos have Serial Numbers in between 1200 and 1500… Definitely newer than my Neo…
I loosened everything this morning and still the same. If I rotate the silver hub by hand in either direction the pedals are rotated too. There is also a low level hum that comes from the unit.
No, not a ‘horrible bonesaw’ feeling. It is just louder than I would expect and you can feel the vibrations on the mat. It also gets louder the harder you pedal.
It might actually be working as intended and my expectations aren’t aligned.
It might also be myself which has set it up incorrectly, which would be preferable as then I can get it working properly as opposed to it being faulty!
Ironically though, Neos are marketed as “Zero Maintenance”. And any premium premium product like this shouldn’t need a Masters Degree in Bike Science to get it working properly.
Perhaps this is the reason that Wahoo fit the KickR with a hub and a cassette as default. Then they can QA exactly what the customer is getting and make sure it works as intended. It seems here that there’s potential Neo issues, potential EDCO issues, potential issues installing a cassette, etc…. There are so many places that problems could be and it’s very hard for anyone (customer or TACX) to control everything.
It would be good if Tacx or someone else put a video up on YouTube demonstrating the assembly, preferably with an 11 speed shimano. Then I’d have a better idea if I’d screwed it up! :)
The process of installing the cassette is very simple, I had to do it 5 or 6 times this weekend – lol. I did consider making a video, but my hands were constantly covered in oil / grease.
With an 11-speed Shimano you have the easiest install and its the same as I have. Quick description below.
Put the Neo on it’s side (collapse 1 leg) so that the hub is pointing up.
You do not need any spacers before the cassette goes on.
Place the cassette onto the hub, part by part.
It will only go on 1 way so you cant get this wrong.
Then you will need the EDCO 11 or 12 ring to tighten it on. This is determined by the size of your smallest cog. So 11-32 = 11.
You will also need a chain whip because the hub / “wheel” will rotate in both directions.
Hold the cassette with the Chain Whip and tighten very tight with the Campag Cassette Tool. (40nm).
Job done.
Thanks. I’ve actually installed one before but am sort of hoping I’ve done it wrong as that would be an easy fix!
I reinstalled it over lunch and was careful to make sure everything was lined up correctly etc. I now have the clanking sound too :( Couldn’t work out if it was the bike or not though.
The pedals still move irrespective of which way I rotate the silver hub.If I stop pedalling the chain slackens and fly’s off.
Waiting to hear back from Tacx.
Attached is a video (if it works!). I’m not sure it sounds correct?
I didn’t change gear once. The chain was in the middle (six cogs in) of the 11 cogs (so not cross chaining).
I think there is something wrong with the hub. It doesn’t spin freely like a wheel would. It is firmly attached to the unit so whichever way to silver hub is rotated the pedals also rotate.
I can’t comment on indexing; however, if your hub does not freewheel then it’s broken and you need to open a ticket with TACX.
I was sent a replacement hub (pre greased) to try on my first Neo this weekend. When I fitted it I had the same issue – no freewheel and my chain shot forward onto the floor when I stopped. At first I thought I was going mad, surely not another different issue, had I broken something on the bike when taking it off ? After closer inspection (and a brief spell in the asylum) I switched back to the old hub (which came with it) and the freewheel was ok again. Later I discovered that the new hub freewheel did work with no cap on the end to hold it in place, but at the cap was added and tightened (with fingers, gently) it stops rotating. So not all the hubs are the same.
If the freewheel doesn’t work your chain will either come off, end up on the floor or jam in the cranks if you stop pedalling.
Einundsiebzig got “bad indexing” for the same reason as I would say “bad indexing”. Your drivetrain sounds far noisier than it should, simple as that.
Indexing doesn’t have to be changing gear – its the way we ensure that when you are in any given gear, the chain is being driven squarely over the teeth of the cog and not pulled to the sides at all. You can have a bike that “more or less” changes gear just fine, but that does NOT mean its indexed well.
Indexing is a pet hate of mine. Always stopping friends and giving them a gentle barrel adjusting ;-)
I see. Well I can fiddle with the little adjuster but that won’t fix the vibrations or the fact the device doesn’t freewheel without the pedals turning. There’s also a clunking noise but perhaps thats due to the drive chain? It does sound like its coming from the Neo. FWIW the bike runs fine in the real world.
The bike, chain and cassette are new. The drive chain is being affected by the NEO. If I run it on a normal wheel it sounds fine. Because the NEO doesn’t free wheel it is effectively pulling on the chain at the top/bottom of each revolution causing the chain to be tugged at and the noises you’re hearing. I cannot spin the cassette or hub. Unfortunately I stopped the video too early but there is no spin down from the device. It literally just stops and the chain fly’s forwards.
What a lot of you guys possible aren’t aware of is that the Kickr is basically a basic magnet trainer with direct drive and smart features in terms of a fairly modest amount of kinetic energy being stored in its flywheel.
The neo simulates outdoor riding in it’s power curve more closely HOWEVER if they have made a trainer that doesn’t fit a lot of superbike tri/tt bikes they really have dropped a clanger as they say in the UK.
Here is a 51cm P5 of mine, shown with the template provided above held back as far as humanly possible within the horizontal dropouts. Even at that level if the template base corresponds to the “QR” axle, then half of the clamp would be hanging out the back of the hanger any further forward and it is going to be fouling the chainstays if the template is to be believed.
Has anyone on here had a Neo in a small P5 yet? I imagine in a Venn diagram of folk willing to spend 4 figures on a trainer, there will be a significant overlap with folk wishing to put a high end tri/ tt bike on it.
Any help appreciated
Hi Chris. I wish I didn’t have to be aware of any of this. How a Neo works, what the insides look like, how to grease hubs, remove / fit cassettes, what an EDCO hub is, etc, etc.
I’d really just like to be able to pay lots of money for a high quality device that I put my bike onto and it works. No squeaks, no rattles, no roughness, no noises (or any type other than the chain going around), just works. The Neo is advertised as both silient and maintenance free and sold for more money that practially any other such device.
TACX are doing a great job to help. I’m just trying to stay sane. Perhaps it’s the trainer, perhaps it’s the hub, perhaps it’s my expectations, perhaps my lack of bike skills, perhaps (as Einundsiebzig says) it could now be gear indexing (see above). The fact there are so many factors to consider makes it all the more difficult.
I agree. At this price point I expect it to work out of the box. Maybe further down the line I might expect to have to grease things etc, after all it is a machine so some maintenance at some point is expected. Having to do it on arrival though is very slack. Basically doing the job Tacx should have done and no guarantee it will work.
will try this greasing thing tonight to see if it helps, but if not then I think its going to be time to log a ticket with Tacx. Interestingly I took my bike off and folded the Neo up on Sunday morning and noted that the QR skewer has slightly bent!! I weigh 74kg, before anyone asks! :D
I’m disappointed in my Neo. First I found out that I needed a firmware update to use it with TrainerRoad but can only do that with an iPhone which I don’t have. I had checked the Tacx website about platform compatibility before buying and saw the Windows, Android and Apple logos so thought I’d be fine with just Windows. Nope.
And then I discovered that I have a bad unit which makes a metallic clicking sound when I rotate the flywheel/cover. The annoying thing about this is the cost I’ll incur in shipping a 20kg+ package back to the online retailer I bought it from assuming I get an RMA from Tacx or the retailer.
For such an expensive product, and given Tacx’s reputation, you’d think they would have been more careful this time around. Might just switch to Kickr.
Anyone know if the clicking sound can be repaired by the end user?
Mine is a different noise. Sounds like those magnets on the rotating cover knocking against fixed metal parts. It is immediately evident when one rotates the flywheel only a 1/3 or 1/2 rotation – click click click!
I’m surprised that, given what appears to be really small tolerances on the distance to those magnets, they didn’t simply have a QA step that involved rotating the flywheel half a rotation.
Waiting for some sort of RMA from Tacx. Not looking forward to how much it will cost me to ship that 20kg+ unit and how long I’ll have to wait for a replacement.
In my opinion TACX made a mistake (if you like to call it so…) to leave too much installation work to the end user… like installation of the cassette… to people who either don’t have the right tool, the needed knowledge or both… It would be much better with less room for problems if TACX could deliver the NEO with pre-installed drivetrain. I know, this would not help against any of those noises… but sometimes I think we all get a little bit neurotic here and starting to hear strange sounds from the NEO when it is actually a bad drivetrain setup…
I do agree quite a bit. It’s the same problem Elite has as well, I think having to install a cassette is a pretty big deterrent. Ultimately very few people have a secondary cassette just hanging around – so they have to purchase one anyway.
Wahoo simply offers two versions, and if you want you can always change out the cassette on your own later. Sure a handful of people will end up with an extra cassette they didn’t need, but I’m guessing that’s like 2% of the buying population, at best.
I dunno, personally I think if you are willing to spend the price of a full carbon road bike with 11sp 105 on a trainer then slinging a cassette on (or paying someone a few bob for 2mins of their time) can’t be that big a hurdle.
What will kill it stone dead in the water is the inability to fit a load of high end frames, poor (perceived or actual) QC and sloppy integration with the apps that give the trainer it’s high end value in the first place.
In fairness to Tacx they seem to be open and helpful on here and have read that they are proactive in altering the firmware to simulate road like inertia even further but it would be even more helpful if the product ‘just worked’ so the early adopters don’t feel like beta testers and tell all their mates the trainer has more bugs than a VW convention.
Yeah but in the end… If the trainer does come with a cassette and your bike-shift is indexed to your road wheelset you still need to setup your gears to the cassette you put on the Neo… I think someone who’s missing skills, to change or mount a cassette may be better provided buying a spinning…
Bicycles always need care and maintenance if it is to change a tire, chain, brake-pads… CLEANING your pride the right way… So no way to come around without any technical interest or the will to learn something about bikes…
I also think there might be “little” a potential of overlistening sounds, vibrations, etc… :-)
From the App side, I think you cannot blame Tacx… Its work, the developers might have to do to make their software work right with a new trainer like the Neo is… f.ex. like TR is going to do… they are still waiting for a Neo to test and make changes to their software…
The biggest mistake is to require customers to use an iPhone to update their firmware. Their support people actually told me that I needed to “borrow and iPhone from a family member or friend”. I responded that I didn’t know anyone with an iPhone well enough to borrow one for an evening and their response was basically “We are sorry to inform you that this is only possible with an iPhone”.
I tried asking the dealer if they would do it for me. They said no.
Why on earth did they not put a USB port or use WiFi? Baffling to me.
Let’s be realistic here. Most people who buy this level of trainer are seriously into cycling and both know how to install a cassette and have the tools to do it. I can’t see having to install a cassette as a big deterrent. The problem with the Neo appears to be the Edco hub’s attachment to the Neo. When force is applied to the hub through an attached cassette, a litany of problems from annoying noises to failure to spin properly can develop. Tacx is saying that lubrication of a plastic sleeve in the hub should solve the problem. From the comments here, that doesn’t seem to be the universal case. I can’t imagine that the mere attachment of a cassette to the Edco hub causes the problems described here. It’s the use of the hub on the Neo which brings out the problems. I am curious to know what other products on the market use the same hub and if the same problems are manifest there as well.
Lol, as a wild guess all of the ‘over listening’ comments are directed at me. Quite frustrating although this is the internet.
As I mentioned earlier the bike and drive chain are new, as is the cassette. As I keep repeating but which no-one seems to be listening too is that the device doesn’t freewheel. Here is a video of me rotating the pedals then stopping, you’ll see the chain fly off. Currently the device isn’t acting like a normal wheel where when you stop pedalling the wheel would spin freely.
I guess this has no effect on the noise and I must be over listening to make this happen lol.
After a 30+ mile on Zwifting tonight it seems that the clanging Gumball noise is (hopefully) gone. LOUD CHEER.
However the feeling that gears aren’t quite right still persists and the mini bone sawing continues in many gears, especially on the big ring.
I’ve decided the next step is to follow the advice of many and get the setup indexed. Not going to try to learn on the job though, I’ve contacted the owner of my LBS and he will come over later in the week. The charge for knowing what’s real from a man with 30 years experience is now irrelevant, I just need to know.
My 2p is that you are wasting your time *if* your Neo is exhibiting the same sawing noise/vibration mine did. Do what I did, turn the pedals by hand (or get a helper) and place pressure on the metal disc. If the noise/vibration changes/goes away then its a Neo problem and no amount of re-indexing will change that.
And in other news, I have a third Neo at home with me. Was at the LBS picking up my TT bike and he wants me to give this one a going over. Must be a sucker for punishment :)
@Lee, you may be right. But unless I try I won’t know for sure. Right now I have 2 Neo’s (thanks TACX) and that’s 2 chances to get 1 that works smoothly and quietly.
NEO-2 is unusable with a Sawing sensation that’s extremely bad.
NEO-1 is now greased up and much quieter, but still exhibits a milder version of the above.
With an expert looking it over I can get a much better verdict on that it is, AND sometimes knowing what it isn’t is just as important.
As promised, an update. Still good news: after several interval training sessions, my Neo is still silent. (Had the Edco / Gumball problem, was fixed by Tacx last Friday.) Tacx support kept in touch, wanting to know how I fared. Good service. Neo makes a humming sound, but the noise of my bike drivetrain is louder. Some vibration, but not audible downstairs. So: it is possible. After being annoyed by the noise of the Kickr I used before, I can now train relatively silently, earlier in the morning and later in the evening…
Went to remove the EDCO hub. Er….”blimey”. I’ve a garage with a very extensive Teng toolkit and had to use a bearing puller to get this off (link to amprotools.net) – no way was that coming off with standard pulling or gentle persuasive taps with rubber hammers and drifts. So – chances of Mr Layman doing this – zero. Even with the puller it was tough.
Greased up the hub as per the note from Tacx. Reassembled. Did the 5mm allen tight to make sure the hub was fully on, then loosened and gently gently re-tightened so it placed no load on the bearings.
Put on 10sp cassette with campag tool/chain whip.
Put on bike. Started pedalling. Jawbone vibration and noise.
Got off bike, put the Neo back in the box and laughed.
Wow, thats bad. Tacx seriously needs to stop sending units out until they are QCd. Are they just not testing them at all before sending them out??????????
Because I wanted to be sure that the Neo was in best possible condition. For example, the sawbone issue may have been hub/shaft/grease related too – who knows?
When I removed the hub (eventually) everything was so dry that clearly thats wrong. Again, whilst the kickr is different, the hub on a shaft approach is not and a kickr comes out of the box with everything clear greased up nicely.
You had to use a bearing puller?!? The freehub came off very easily for me. Like pulling any other freehub off – twist slightly as if back pedalling so the pawls disengage and a gentle pull and it came off.
Put a bit of grease on the sleeve and also a bit on the pawls to quieten the freehub ratcheting. All done in 3 minutes.
At first go it sounds quieter now, but have only used for a very short easy ride as back is playing up atm. So not conclusive at this stage.
I’ve identified one area in which the Tacx Neo severely outperforms the Wahoo Kickr:
This Neo review has been in existence for 61 days and is averaging 15 posts per day, while Ray’s In-Depth Kickr review only managed a rather unimpressive 4.7 posts per day over its initial 61 days.
Perhaps the Kickr is less problematic than the Neo and the deluge of posts about the Neo reflects this. Obviously the Kickr is not without fault, but I think it is inherently a better design.
@Lee, three Neo’s all faulty! Wow. I wonder if the mechanism is so delicate that transport affects them? It doesn’t say fragile on the box but there is a note in the manual that says if dropped it will cause vibrations to occur. It’s not hard to imagine them being knocked around a bit when being transported internationally. Either that or the QC process is weak, or maybe its a combination of the two issues!
I’m still waiting to hear back from Tacx on mine. Reported it 24hrs ago. Auto response says 48 hours so we shall see today..
After I’ve posted I can read them all again – strange.
On topic: @Adam “Maybe it’s your bike and my bike has the same problem? I mean what are the odds of getting three the same?”
I’ve tried my Neo with my indoor bike (actually a cyclocross, but as it is more comfortable inside it’s now my indoor bike :), with my Giant Defy and with my Crossbike – result was the same “sawboning” on all 3 of them – hence it’s definitely the Neo and not the bike.
So looking at the photos in post #759 it looks like the metal disc is running 2 different sized bearings. Now depending on how the spindle has been machined there is really only one way to preload the bearings, and that is if the spindle has enough gap behind the small bearing, that you can preload it when you tighten the freehub retainer. I notice the metal disc has play in it though, just like loose bearings in a hub, which indicates there is no preload happening. So my current guess is that there are sounds from the loose bearings.
It’s been two days since I e-mailed Tacx and no response has been received other than the automated one promising a response within two days .. Very disappointing.
Finally it around to recording my noise issues. This is the bone saw noise, right? It sounds worse at times when pushing a big gear but this is just small ring pedalling by hand. link to youtu.be
Disagree – if you are saying that the tightness of the freehub is related to the sawbone vibration/noise. Difficult to describe, but when you tighten the freehub retaining nut there is no “give” whatsoever – its not like you can feel you are pushing a bearing into its race. It goes up tight and stops dead.
However, I’m *not* saying the noise/vibration isn’t related to the bearings, just that its not a tightness issue. In the same way the shaft was completely dry, its possible that the shaft needs some grease for the main disc bearings to sit on.
If you see my video where I managed to quieten the disc by applying hand pressure, the only possible effect I can be having is
a) changing the load/angles on the bearings
b) moving the disc (perhaps a rubbing inside?)
Given that the disc is a simple metal cover and inside are magnets, you would assume that any kind of rubbing/fouling would result in a metallic scraping noise, not a vibration and brrrrr noise.
Therefore my suspicion is that it is indeed bearing related, either faulty bearings, incorrect fitment, or a similar lubrication issue.
Sadly (and I definitely did NOT disassemble a unit ho ho), it is impossible to get the front disc cover off of the main unit without a specialist tool in my opinion. Maybe a large puller like I used on the freehub. But you cannot get any purchase on the disc until you remove the two plastic sides, and these are not easy to remove either.
Hence why the recommendation has to be – send back for replacement, but only when the replacement units are known to be fixed.
No, that is not what I am saying. But I am saying the tightness of the freehub should be the issue, which would mean that it could apply pressure to the inner ring of the outer bearing in the metal disc. It is not the freehub I am talking about when I talk about play, it is the metal disc. You yourself have said you can remove your noise by applying some pressure (I choose answer a, preload) to it. I dont imagaine the bearings are faulty, unless the tolerances are way too much, and they have gone it crooked. I suggest the bearing preload solution in post #943 (although these numbers can change). If you can take the metal disc off, like Einundsiebzig, then I think you would find that a washer placed behind the large bearing would shift the whole disc out far enough to allow the freehub retainer to apply preload to the disc bearings.
That’s exactly what I got. I guess mine is even a bit worse – though decreasing with higher cadence. (Link to my video somewhere above). I will let it be repaired after my holiday, just have to find an agreement for the shipping costs with Tacx.
One thing to keep in mind is that while the last few hundred (or more than a few hundred) messages here have mostly been troubleshooting, it’s also troubleshooting from what is essentially a handful (I think 4-6) people.
Meaning, there have been thousands of units shipped, so from a pure percentages standpoint that’s pretty good. It’s less ideal when a single user gets two bad units in a row (whatever the reason), though it’s possible that may be a result of batches. Really hard to say.
It’s something I’m keeping a close eye on (if for no other reason than it fills my inbox all day long).
My first faulty Neo – Gumball :) Was in the very first shipment to LBS. Had no sawbone issue.
Subsequent two Neos with sawbone – both from the same shipment to LBS so one presumes same batch.
I tried to rescue the gumball back from my LBS as it now appears that can be fixed with grease easily, however he had already sent it back.
To the best of my knowledge Tacx have said nothing about this sawbone issue, are currently not replying to emails (for me and a few others here) and no fix is on the horizon.
Tacx answered me last week on my sawbone problem (I included the video), but they didn’t answer on my second email where I was asking how long a replacement will take – anyway, here is their answer:
Hello
We are sorry to hear this. Thank you for information.
We also would like to have the serial number of this brake.
This brake needs to be replaced as this is making a noise that it should not.
Can you please contact your Tacx dealer so they can contact their service centre.
I am on day 3 with no response from Tacx. Will update here if there is a response. Very disappointing service so far. You’d think they’d be all over it. For a high priced item the quality isn’t great (in my experience) and the customer support is yet to be seen.
Unrelated to the Neo, I sent an email regarding license key activation issue. No reply. Sent an email to their online store yesterday, got this:
And once again I have forwarded your email to support@tacx.nl,
but it is very busy at the moment so they will answer your email as soon as possibble
And I understand you think it takes too long to get help, but I cannot help it, I am sorry
I do, too … but I think it all gets kind out of hands here … the more postings, the more confusion and misunderstandings and misinformation will occur …
It all gets more and more confused around here … and if I read here enough I sure will find any new noise at my GEO, I am sure!
And now for a report on the whining/ringing noise some people mention. Today I experienced this for the first time. FWIW it happened for me at approx 285rpm of the metal disc.
Some methods to hit around 285rpm:
52×15@83cad
53×15@81cad
54×15@80cad
@Lee – If they are overwhelmed with customer support’ doesn’t that just imply that they are getting a lot of queries on their products, of which some (a lot?) are complaints about the Neo (mine is in there for example).
If their support is overwhelmed on release of a new product it’s not unreasonable to speculate that a lot of people are having problems. There’s approximately six folks on this thread, if they were the only ones with problems then six people are hardly going to overload a customer support function.
I think there are a lot more faulty units out there then we see on this forum. Mine had the gumball issue and I sent it back for a refund because I did not want to deal with a lengthy repair process. (In the EU you can basically return any merchandise bought online within a fortnight and get your money back)
Now I am just waiting how the whole situation plays out and I might order a new Neo later this year or just switch to the Kickr.
For the high pricetag of the Neo there definitely too many issues.
@Ray. Although I appreciate that the majority of the issues are from half a dozen people, many of those have now had multiple units, we are fixing them ourselves (following guides) & for most they are still not running as anticipated / advertised.
I think it’s likely that most people buying a Neo do not read this thread (unfortunately) and of those that do, not everyone posts. Many units will have gone to normal people that don’t know any better and are just putting up with strange noises / rubbing. Many others that are taking them back won’t be reporting here either.
It seems very unlikely indeed that if 5 in 1000 are wrong that many people would recieve multiple bad units from different batches.
was even sent a replacement hub for the 1st Neo and there’s something so fundamentally wrong that it wouldn’t even work. On installation the Freewheel doesn’t turn and the chain comes off when you stop pedalling.
I’m currently using the first unit and are now paying for my LBS owner to come over and inspect the whole setup to see if he can find the source of the “rubbing” / “sawbone” feeling I get in the small cogs on the big ring. I’m hoping that something can be realligned or adjusted, but if it can’t at least I will know for sure it’s the Neo.
Contacted the online shop I got the Neo from this morning, they are arranging for pickup which is good, but the trainer will need to go back to Tacx for repair – this is not so good :( FTP builder might have to wait – Dread to think how long that might take.
I am, however, approaching this with an open mind, given that this is my first purchase of Tacx equipment. If they can get it fixed or replaced in a timely fashion, with a working model, then ill have no particular complaints.
I’m in agreement with the above. I think this issue is bigger than is currently accepted. These are hardware faults from a company that has acknowledged it needed to tighten up it’s QC. These hardware faults seem fundamental to the device as multiple people experiencing the same set of problems.
I’m also in agreement with Andrew that those who are posting here are the more savvy consumer who wants the device to work. There also isn’t an overwhelming number of positive posts here… Maybe equal to or less than those complaining?
Re the support – I’m not about to go trawling through posts but I’m sure you said somewhere that Tacx were known more for dodgy software support and were ok with hardware (I’m paraphrasing and if I remember incorrectly then I retract this!).
I’m nearing the point of returning it but ordered online so god knows how much thats going to cost. I think I’d like a refund at this point as the lack of communication from Tacx troubles me.
I’d try emailing TACX support again. Chances are they are very busy right now. Mention that you have posted here and perhaps a couple of the key post #’s.
I’ve found them very good and genuinely trying everything they can to help. I was sent a new hub to try on the first Neo (which didn’t freewheel) and a new Neo to try (which has severe sawing issues). Unfortunately the Neo is very new and we are effectively beta testing it for them.
I guess the challenge is knowing if we’re looking at initial random QC issues (stemming from units produced two months ago), or something more. Given we have had people stop by without any issues on units, I’ve gotta believe it’s more random/smaller.
Plus, with thousands of units shipped on a product that’s sole purpose in life is being quiet (seriously, there’s no other reason to buy it over the KICKR), then if it wasn’t quiet more people would be yelling. Not at all saying some people aren’t having problems, but just trying to keep things in perspective.
Hopefully Tacx can step in soon.
In other news, a bunch of Elite trainers just showed up on my doorstep…so off to spend the afternoon with them.
To add another data point here I can mention that my Tacx Neo developed the gumball/Edco noise after a few hours of use. At first it seemed to appear only occasionally, but later it was there mostly all the time. I did the Edco-grease-fix as detailed by Tacx and that appears to have eliminated the noise.
There is also some rubbing-like noise coming from my unit, especially at high power/torque, which may or may not be related to the sawbone syndrome. I have the impression that the worst units have this noise present all the time (when pedaling), so my case seems to be less annoying. Anyway it does feel like a bearing issue, but I have no idea really. The only thing I can sort of relate it to is when I’ve used BB30 adapters (Wheels Mfg) to fit a 24mm Shimano Hollowtech crankset in a BB30 bottom bracket. If I wasn’t careful with proper alignment and torque it would produce some noise and vibration which, if I recall correctly was similar to the Neo sawbone noise. Again, I have no idea, but it would indeed be nice if the Edco hub was the source of the noise because the fix would be very simple and also relatively cheap by replacing the hub.
All sounds very familiar. But when I tried swapping the EDCO hub for a new one the freewheel didn’t work. And when I got a 2nd Neo the issue with vibration / sawing was far worse.
So I wouldn’t be sure that just swapping the hub will solve all your issues. Unless you get lucky…
Well if the freewheel didn’t work then obviously something must have gone wrong in the installation or the new hub was faulty or some other compatibility problem. Just because you got a bad 2nd Neo doesn’t mean the hub isn’t the problem.
I’m not really considering replacing the hub, at least not yet, because I can live with the noise for now. I’m also definitely not going through the trouble of returning the unit. I was just pointing out that, hypothetically, if the hub was causing the sawbone noise then I imagine that would be rather convenient for many because replacing the hub would be simpler than returning the unit. But as you say it might not solve all issues anyway. Figure I’ll just wait and see if Tacx can sort out this issue before I do anything myself.
Update: My Neo started off absolutely fine (see previous post), have done about 300k on it and its started to develop the same noise as Lee’s video here (link to youtube.com ). Maybe not as severe – yet. I have contacted Tacx and they have said (48hrs later) it needs to be returned. Given it took me 6/7 weeks to get the Neo from order and only arrived a week ago, little disappointed. My e-tailer has been excellent. They have none in stock, but will arrange for it to be switched, when more come available. In the meantime I will continue to use it and turn up the music as necessary.
I just got mine in, a little bit of gumboil noise when I turned the cranks by hand, disappeared for maybe the 1k I rode on swift to see if it was working. Very surprised by how quiet it truly is. I had the campy tool ($7 delivered) on hand, allen wrenches, and the vice whip.
Popped open the box, slapped the ultegra 11s cassette on “shim here” for the wide flange with no spacers, tightened the lockring to 40nm. Popped the other leg up and removed the axle holder, inserted the 135mm spacer, put the axle holder back on, stuck axle through, and I was up and running in about 5 minutes.
No rubbing on my disc brake (2015 Felt F1X), derailleur was perfectly trimmed from the start (retrimming DI2 resulted in exact same trim setting).
I will see what I run into tomorrow when I go for a longer ride, but as of now the only horror has been waiting for the unit to arrive here in Korea. I sold my Kickr when I was told 0-2 weeks in the middle of August and it’s now a good ways into November. The months without a trainer have been rough, especially here where air quality limits riding days. Compared to the KICKR I will have a lot more hours that I can ride this in my high-rise without getting the downstairs/upstairs neighbors all upset.
Did a 10k lap on zwift. On turning it on I think I heard the boiling kettle sound people describe, really quiet boiling kettle though — I think it was fans or something else because after the firmware update I didn’t hear it anymore on start. Did the firmware update, yes I had to turn off bluetooth a few times and turn it back on as per the instructions, but that was easy too. The trainer behaved well for the 10k — leagues quieter than the Kickr, there do seem to be slightly more vibrations (or maybe I just couldn’t notice the vibrations over the relative howl from the kickr) so hopefully those aren’t going into my neighbors apartment. Hopefully no one complains about me vibrating too much…
Here’s a video of the problem I’m having. It sounds like the welding issue with the magnets underneath the silver disc as described by Tacx Support in a couple of the comments above. I got the impression from the Tacx post that this problem was limited to early production only – I purchased my unit on Oct 21st from Evans Cycles UK.
Just heard from Tacx. Mine is apparently the same issue as Andrews. Tacx sending a new edco hub at some point. I’m concerned though that his wasn’t resolved by it. I hope I’m not being given the run around.
@Andrew – How long did the replacement take to arrive?
Delivery took 2 days. If you ask TACX they will give you the tracking code so you can see when it’s arrived in the UK and out for delivery.
In my experience to solve the gumball issue the hub needs to be very well greased and you need to make sure the black ring is inside the hub when you fit it, don’t put the ring on the axle and then the hub over it after.
The hub they sent was incompatible with my Neo and I’m currently back using the one that came with it.
Ok thanks. My problem is more that the device doesn’t spin/freewheel. I think this causes the clanging noise and vibrations because I’m pulling the cassette around each time with no give.
Hard to tell without swapping out. AFAIK you are the only person here to be supplied with a Neo and non-working freewheel. It shows that there’s no testing once the hub is fitted or this would have been picked up.
Thanks for the review DC!
After reading this, I bought the Neo to replace my Computrainer. Looks cool and very silent for a trainer indeed.
But now I just need to figure out how to get my training data to TrainingPeaks.
I paired it with my Garmin Fenix3 but the signal gets lost a lot. Also the distance is not covered. So only wattage and cadence gets transferred. I contacted Garmin but they told me they don’t support other products than their owns.
I’m still waiting for Tacx to reply. Probably they will blame it on Garmin! ;-)
I also don’t want to pay a monthly fee for an app after buying an allready expensive trainer.
Next up I’ll do some testing with my Garmin Edge 810.
So if anyone knows a simple solution for the Neo to work with TrainingPeaks, please let me know!
Thanks!
Hmm, I haven’t had any distance problems on a bunch of Edge devices (and an Epix) to NEO, but haven’t tried the Fenix3.
That said, the body is a tough thing for signals to get around, and sometimes in indoor environments things bounce weird. Have you tried putting it on your bike instead of your wrist? That said, super-odd that the other two signals would make it but not power. That almost sounds like a Fenix3 droppage issue actually, may want to soft-reset the unit just to be sure.
As for apps, it’s gonna be thin pickings for non-recurring fee apps. The coupon code you have in your box for the Tacx app is one option, and I believe that Peripedal is also one-time fee. Not sure of any other ANT+ FE-C ones out there that aren’t recurring though.
@Pascal, if you are a Premium Strava member then the new liason with Zwift means you get 2 months of the later for free (every year). Well worth a try and has the training modules now available to use (officially in Beta) which will be greatly fleshed out in the medium term.
In fact technically the whole of Zwift is still in Beta (and therefore free). But not for long.
Thanks for the reply.
When I start using the trainer, my watch goes from ‘power and caddence sensor connected’ to disconnected and then a couple of times back and forth.
I did a total reset on my Fenix last week (don’t get me started on that one :-) ). But next time I do the soft reset as you suggested.
For the app: I don’t need the fancy virtual racing options, just want to transfer data to TP. Controlling the Neo works fine with the native app. So when I’m back home, I’ll try the Edge 810.
Bye and thanks again!
You might like an app like trainer road or perfpro — they can log away or even run workouts for you that work pretty well and direct upload to training peaks.
Hey Ray, Problem solved! It was a speed/cadence sensor from Garmin still attached to the bike. After removing all was good! I guess it conflicted with the speed/cadence signal comming from the Neo.
Thanks for your great review which gave me the confidence to purchase a Neo. I have been delighted with it with one exception. The speed that is reported through the Tacx training app is about 5mph lower than expected. Any idea why this would be?
Hmm, that’s tricky. Expected based on perceived effort, or compared to the same gearing/cadence as on another app.
Trainer speeds on resistance controlled trainers are incredibly variable. Meaning, I can (with the exact same wattage/effort) change the speed merely by changing gears, yet the NEO will compensate resistance for that and increase speed.
A couple of examples. I did the same power based session last week and this week only one was on the road and the other the Neo. Yes there could be differences like fatigue, but the road ride was 5mph faster. Another example this morning, I was doing intervals of 230W at 80rpm and 175W at 100rpm yet the Tacx app was telling me I was going faster at the lower wattage!
Well I ordered a Neo on the basis of DC’s review a few weeks ago (12th October), delivery should have been a week later, but there were fewer Neo units available from the UK distributor than had been predicted. Hence, I had to wait for the next batch, and it finally arrived with me a couple of days ago.
First, and most importantly, I’m pleased to say that it is working perfectly. On first start, there was a fairly noticeable hissing sort of noise, a bit like central heating pipes when there is a bit of air in the system. I did the firmware update, and this went perfectly, but the noise persisted.
I then turned it off for the night, and next day, noise had gone. Not sure if that is related to a new restart after firmware update….OR simply some kind of burn-in of components which occurs over first couple of hours. NOTE : I had not ridden the unit at all at this point.
When riding, the unit is about as quiet as I’d expected, certainly no “gum ball” or “sawbone” type noises/vibrations.
Interestingly, the packaging box had been re-opened at the Tacx factory as both clear sealing stickers had been peeled back and replaced, whereas the outer shipping packaging box was stil sealed and had labels from Tacx to the UK distributor on it,
Also interestingly, there was quite a liberal amount of “spray lube/oil” on the metal discs of the unit. I wonder if the whole unit was lubed, as well as the Edco freehub, at the factory on this batch prior to shipping?
Anyway, all good with mine, just to balance the numbers a bit!
The knock on effect to the Neo’s teething issues is that the Wahoo Kickr is now out of stock in the UK too. Had cancelled my Neo pre-order hoping to jump ship to the Kickr.
Now it’s plan C; air cycling on my back with bricks duct-taped to my trainers and bungee cords to the ceiling.
I would have a really hard time believing and distributor is getting ‘thousands’ of units of anything Tacx except for water bottles. That’s just so far and above any numbers Tacx has ever talked about or that distributors ever get in one shot. ;)
Could it be that the Neo becomes widely available before the Kickr comes back? Last week they were expecting a huge consignment but they didn’t arrive so I am not too optimistic. My concern would be switching back to the Neo and still getting one of the early problematic ones. There is still stock in the UK at the moment but hard to know when it arrived.
I Big thank you to DC and everybody else that participate on this forum. I started in 2006 with TACX fortius and had my fair share of troubleshooting and sometimes came close to murdering the equipment with a 4 pound hammer.
But I persisted, bought the i-Genius Multiplayer in 2014 and it was good and as the software came out it got better, find the climbing improved a lot, well at least for me, as we know that is not always the case.
Was very much interested in the new Neo, but because of this forum/thread I am waiting and sided with the later adopters, I hope a speedy recovery or should I say a eventual fix to your problem.
Tacx need to realize that for many of us this piece of equipment is not a toy, rather it is part of an vital step and process in our fitness regime. I also started getting noises on my Genius, so loud that I need to put in ear plugs and as it is out of warranty, I now have to try to fix it and no documentation on how to replace bearings. ….anybody out there ever tried to do bearing on genius (left side should be easy, but right side without is a problem, so now I am not back on my 2006 fortius still going strong and not as noisy.
I have a new cassette and a new chain, gears perfectly indexed on the trainer (I got a dedicated Indoor bike) – so it’s not that – and as posted before: I have tried 3 completely different bikes on it – same result. As soon as I’m back home, I’ll send it in for repair. Hope I’ll get it back quickly then. link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
I think it’s funnier that videos been there a week and nobody else noticed or said anything (including me, never heard that sound), some 1,700 people.
I turn up my speakers (albeit laptop) and can barely hear it, and it appears only for those few seconds – I think I’m accelerating then, but not sure. I guess I’m just wondering at what point it’s becoming a case of recording/imagination issues.
In other words, if that’s the sound folks are complaining about, when I sit on the bike – I just don’t hear anything I’m concerned about. Maybe I’m missing it, but that faint change in tone is far outweighed by the shift of clicking.
Lee, did you get feedback from Tacx on your issue. I saw a mail coming by but it was not clear to me. I know you reported it, but i personally did not see it. Do you have that ticket ID number
Already did that (Ticket#1082226) and got a reply, but could not act on it yet, because I’m on a business trip until the 11th.
Anyway, I’ll send it once more (it’s 2 files – this version and the extended version).
I did notice you had that sound when I watched the vid because I was wondering if the similar sound coming from my own Neo was normal or not. It does seem that it is worse for some people though. It’s pretty hard to say how silent we can realistically expect the Neo to be, but Tacx claims the chain is louder, and it is then easy to interpret that with a clean chain/cassette and arbitrary power in mind. IMO that’s simply not the case.
Hi Tacx. Turns out the mailserver you use ended up on the Barracuda spam blocklist!! Since a lot of people use Barracuda appliances for mail filtering I guess a lot of people haven’t been receiving anything from you :)
Neo tickets – doesn’t matter now, all 3 Neo units returned and refunded.
My licensing ticket – I’ve been sent some instructions/keys to try and rectify the issue, thanks :)
@Ray – Have to admit that I listened to your earlier videos (in the cave and the trailer) but when I already had the Neo + you posted that your new one was perfect + the title of “most boring video” I skipped. ;-)
The Bonesawing I don’t really hear, that’s not what annoys me. I can feel it. On my “almost there” Neo-1 it’s annoying, but ridable. On the 2nd Neo it’s horrendous, unridable and very much audible.
The sawing feels like a rubbing. So it also makes me think that whatever it is will either be reducing the life of the chain, the Neo or Both. And the last thing we want is a unit that fails / gets worse as it approaches / ends it warranty.
I suspect your bonesawwing is much more vibrant than the very faint noise I (and you on my video, I think) can barely here for only a few seconds if I silence everything and turn up my speakers. :)
For me, I just don’t feel it. I do agree it’d be good to know more details. Tacx sent over some clarification on the various NEO items this morning, which in a nutshell mostly go towards QA type stuff like we all expected (on very early units). They re-iterated that if customers have problems they should work with support to get them sorted out. They believe the QA type problems impact less than 2% of units shipped to date, but that they themselves noted that’s still an unacceptable level.
a) some users will have low mechanical knowledge, their drivetrain may mask neo issues
b) some simply won’t know that the noise/vibration is not normal and suffer in silence. Or not ;-)
indeed some might just think its a running-in thing, or its their bike. So that 2% will be higher I am sure.
I agree with Lee. It’s hard to believe that if 98% of Neo’s were perfect that I’d get one with a serious clanging issue from the first batch and then get a totally unusable one from a later batch (delivered directly from TACX). And that I’d recieve an EDCO hub for the 1st Neo that wouldn’t freewheel when fitted. I can also understand how many people would be living with mild bone-sawing or just accepting the gumball.
I know this math isn’t perfect, but as an approximation. If the failure rate is 2% then the chances of getting 2 failures from 2 different batches = 0.04%. Or 1 in 2,500. Possible… But then I’m not the only person to recieve 2 bad Neo’s and there are some that have recieved 3 (to which the odds are ridiculous).
Tonight I have an expert coming over to check my setup top to bottom. I’m absolutely hoping that he finds something that explains / resolves the remaining issue.
What could that loud metallic ‘clonk’ sound in Mikaels vid come from anyway? I hear that on my own Neo when I manually rotate the disc, but I thought it was normal.
Hey, I’m happy to moan about a product if it’s not doing what it should, or has made some promises that perhaps it hasn’t fully delivered on yet, but lets not forget that a working Neo is an awesome trainer.
Got my second Neo – this time the “bone saw / vibration” has gone. Very quiet… but I now have the gumball issue at random cadences. I’m not prepared to get my hands dirty and grease the EDCO hub so its goodbye Tacx from me – now to work on the refund process.
Dont do it! So many people would do anything to just have gumballing. If you lived in Boston/Providence I’d help you out, looks like a real easy job and honestly, even if it didnt gumball at the beginning it’s something youd probably have to do for regular maintenance anyway, yearly or so. Be brave– you can do it! Keep that Neo!
I do believe that models in the field could have this because of the greasing. It is indeed 5 minutes work and please… send us a mail so we can help out and compensate you in any. I do believe that this should not be something to return the system.
@Jase. I too would recommend that you try the “fix”. It’s far easier than the hassle of returning the Neo and it seems to carry a very high success rate in fixing the gumball issue.
Agree with those who have already mentioned you should try greasing the hub before trying to get a refund. It is much easier than installing the cassette.
Is anyone using an 11 speed block and able to use the top cog? I have Campagnolo 11s installed and cannot use the top cog because the rear derailleur backplate rubs the flywheel…
So just to be sure you are using a Shimano 105 cassette with Campy? Or you are using Shimano 105 complete group.. Im guessing the design of the Shimano 105 rear derailleur is narrower than the campy so its giving you some extra clearance.. the back plate of the campy is pretty beefy… Someone on the tacx forum is also having the same issue as me with Campy… :(
Campagnolo rear derailleurs have an inherent twist to them, so the jockey wheels are not in perfect alignment with the cog.. if you look at a Campagnolo rear derailleur from the behind the bike, even though the top pulley wheel is in alignment with the cog, the rear bottom pulley will look like its bent inward… I have tried 3 bikes on my trainer with Campy 11s, and all experience the same issue…Using a Campagnolo Record 11-25 or 11-27 block… I seem to be the only Campag user around so far.. the Shimano guys dont seem to be having a problem as it seems the Shimano rear derailleurs dont have this inherent twist..
I agree with you Chris. I have a Colnago M10 with Campy Chorus 11 and it has a twist as you said. I think Tacx Support need to get their facts straight. Pun intended.
I bought my Neo from Evans just over a week ago, mainly as there’s a shop nearby in case I need to take it back. However, after building a new trainer bike to go with it, it appears to be silent. That is even with my novice attempts at derailleur/chain/indexing adjustment. The serial number is around 1290. I haven’t bothered to look into the firmware version yet, I don’t have an Apple phone handy and at my level of ability its not going to make much difference, I shall wait for the droid version has been delivered and tested first.
The Edco plastic bushing only had the merest sign of grease so I greased that up while installing the cassette before I fired her up.
It is early days as I have only done one fitness test on TTS4 since getting it up and running. I will try Trainerroad later. I’m using a Lenovo i7 yoga 13 laptop running Win10 in tablet mode on a nice solid music stand and it works a treat. The ant+ antenna that comes with the TTS4 upgrade found the trainer and handlebar control and my Wahoo Tickr heart monitor no problem.
Only issue was the TTS4 trainer calibration timed out so I just passed on that, I’m not sure that is relevant to the Neo. As I have only recently returned to exercise after a 10 year hiatus, when I can squeeze more than a few watts out of the skinny dangly bits hanging out of my shorts supposedly called legs I will look into the power side more. :)
I do want to make a small comment, but this is social media and i know that you guys are also on the other forums explaining the experience you have had with the Neo.
The most issues we have seen unfortunate is with a non greased Edco module, which can be fixed on an easy way, even that we also agree that for the price of this product it should not happen. So report it with a sound to us.
Our factory (since the first report of Andrew) has changed this to prevent this from happening. The grinding noise sounds from Lee is under investigation (we did not get a model like this under investigation at our factory but working on that). So please if you believe there is a strange sound, also report it to us. (support@tacx.com), but the fall out reported at Tacx is lower then that 2%
We can organise for my 2nd Neo to be returned anytime now. This has the “bone sawing” in a very pronounced way, so this should give you an ideal test dummy to investigate on. If I get any further information from tonights expert bike check I’ll let you know too.
I appreciate that most of the issues, perhaps even all of them are related to the EDCO hub which TACX don’t even make, this must be galling. But as the most expensive trainer of it’s type on the market by a substantial margin it’s not unreasonable for customers to believe they are buying a product of a very high quality that’s been tested to a high standard along with all the core parts. Even that grease has been applied to all parts that need it.
There’s no doubt that a perfect Neo is a fantastic piece of kit which I wouldn’t swap for ANY other product on the market, however the issues experienced by many have removed a lot of confidence in it for those effected.
I’m absolutely hoping to get mine sorted fully so I can become one of the people raving about it, then all the startup issues can be put behind. There’s no doubt that when it works well it’s everything the advertising promised.
I see the reason for going with the EDCO, it only means one SKU of your product needs to be made. But it really does seem to be the weak spot. It’s noisy when freewheeling, has less engagement on the splines than a shimano/sram specific hub, doesn’t fit all campy hubs, and now all the other noise issues. Seems like EDCO snookered you.
Yes this is 100% true.
If you buy a car and the battary goes down within 1 month, The car manufacturer will also not say: he it is not our problem, because it is 3rd party device.
But that is why we are pushing for registration at our official channels, even if you fixed it yourself. We are not able to be everywhere and check every comment on social media, so registrations are very important.
Hilko
I see a rep from Tacx is posting here in comment section which I think is odd because they never, well almost never, respond in the Tacx user forums. This leads to suspicion. Why? As one who has had two Tacx trainers and followed almost every post in the user forums since their beginning, now you wonder why I would do that, I know that the owner base is also their beta testers for not so tested products. I have an interest in purchasing a new smart trainer because of the way training is going but I knew to wait and read reports about experiences with the NEO before jumping into the fire. It seems to me the NEO is the same old same old from Tacx. A bunch of promises but they rarely deliver. I’m still waiting for a fix of the video player sync issues which has been promised almost a year ago. Now they are promising an Andriod fix so you can update the NEO. I don’t see this ever coming. Tacx has been known to just drop the things they can’t fix. Don’t believe me, look for support on TTS 1, 2, & 3. The trainers are not accurate from a power stand point. Coaches don’t like them. And lately I’ve been saying that their offerings are just a toy, not a tool for making real improvements. You can’t even rely on the trainer working, software working, after you’ve taken the time to get dressed and jump on the bike for some workout time. I know it sounds like I have a vendetta against Tacx and it is probably because I do. I have fell victim to several bad software releases which cost me a lot of money and countless missed opportunities to train on my trainer which have hurt my performance level. After the last couple of weeks of reading the complaints about the NEO’s issues I know now to go with the Kickr. The quiet factor is not so important when I weigh the performance gains from being able to train or not. I would suggest that if you are considering the NEO you wait a bit longer and see if Tacx lives up to theirs promises. If you can’t wait and need to train then definitely choose something else.
Hi Chase R
People think we are hidding or do not reply on comments etc. Social media is everywhere, and indeed we cannot be everywhere. Our main communication line is our own FB, twitter or mail or phone, but we are checking Zwift, Trainerroad and other post on Social media related to this. Im not here for discussion if you are right or not (refering back to software or to bugs in the software, and yes in the past we have seen the issues). I’m just here because people have problems and need help. Im here so we also get the response and registration via our official channels. As mentioned in earlier post.
I guess I’m confused Chase. Tacx is here trying to help users that actually have the NEO and need assistance. You’re here basically throwing out a bunch of totally random things like a temper-tantrum. Non-accurate power support, for example – simply isn’t true. And support on TTS1? That’s 6+ years old now. Seems a pretty broad statement to say “Coaches hate them”. Yet, you don’t even have a NEO.
I guess I’ve got no problems with folks talking about issues they have. But when it bridges into just sorta making up stuff, it’s a bit harder to pretend it’s all fine.
Also, on forums – most companies actually don’t respond in their own *user* forums. Polar, Garmin (limited), Suunto, Apple – none respond. Logical, no, but just pointing that out. But if you want to bash Tacx for trying to support users…well…shrug.
Not having a temper-tantrum, I’m well beyond that. And I don’t like being called a liar. The facts are posted in the Tacx User Forums in black and white for everyone to read. I only wish to warn consumers mainly here in America that Tacx is a company that produces poor trainers and software. And they don’t refund software which was the case for me. You imply TTS1 software doesn’t have support because of it’s age, when the truth is it was dropped because it didn’t work. Same for TTS2 which is why people had to pay yet again for TTS3. TTS3 works for some but Tacx now has TTS4 which still has issues but can be used as a toy for enjoyment. Try training using VR Valeggio terrain and you’ll instantly see what I’m talking about. Try using RLV videos and you see the sync issues. Yea I’m mad about the amount of money I spent and what I actually got for it. A lot of missed training time and more time troubleshooting problems. Support is weak if you are lucky enough to get it. It’s been rare in my case and their English is hard to comprehend. So you see, I’m not here to throw a tantrum, I am one consumer reporting to other consumers to beware, it’s likely you will get burnt. The NEO is very expensive and it appears to have problems already. I think if that Tacx rep was here to help he would also be watching and posting in their own forums where people are constantly begging them to comment. I think he is just here fishing.
You’re upset because you didn’t get support years ago on something. But now you’re upset because Tacx is trying to actually help people here (and doing quite a bit of that both on these posts and behind the scenes direct to people).
As for Tacx software, again, if you read what I’ve written – I actually don’t recommend folks buy the TTS suite. Far from it. I’d never recommend a Tacx trainer if you couldn’t use it with 3rd party apps. Which also is a good time to remind you that you need not purchase any Tacx software to use the NEO.
As for Tacx support in years past – it’s something I’ve talked about extensively in past posts, but things largely have seemed to change. I think it’s fair to give them credit for that. It would seem sorta dishonest not to, no?
Here we go again. I’m beyond being upset now. It’s past. But to be clear about things it was more recent than years ago that I had problems with Tacx Support. It was last years Winter training season which is when people usually use their trainers. I don’t need or use a trainer in the warmer months. The VR had a drafting issue that made cycling harder if you entered that zone when riding against opponents. This took Tacx months to fix. And the other issue was the avatar leaving the road and not being able to steer back on coarse until the ride would crash. Tacx support did eventually communicate but the answer was they did not know how this could happen. So pretty much I cannot depend on using the trainer to complete a workout. My last years training had to be done outdoors in the cold. Here we are now and the winter training season is among us and so I’m looking for a new trainer. Based on what I’m reading here it won’t be the NEO. To give Tacx credit for doing a better job well for some people the experience hasn’t changed. I have heard some say that Tacx has responded better for them but still slow. Lets see how long it takes them to solve the Android users issue.
Chase R, all what you are telling us, you might forget that there are people like me, having no problems with the new NEO. And I think I can say, with almost 100 hours of Riding in two months I am a mid range to heavy NEO user… I am slightly over 2700km in Zwift + some TR Session all done with the NEO.
I do not own TTS or use any of the Tacx Apps, because for me there is no need to. Zwift, TR or Virtualtraining, BKOOL, Perf Pro… a lot of APPs and Software out there is already working with the NEO! Some Apps like TR might need a little bit of improvement, but they are working!
And what does sound ridiculous to me, is the fact, that you blame your VR giving you a drafting issue. Sorry, but this does not sound to me that you riding for serious training. If you use your Trainer for that kind of, you just care about your watts, cadence and heartrate! Not following a Virtual Rider in his draft saving some wattage to beat him in a sprint or on a climb… What a software is giving you in speed or draft counts NILL… You just do the watts and this is what counts and gives you performance…
The good thing is, the market is giving us opportunities. You can choose a Kickr, a Neo, o Turbo Muin, for me wich I am a Rider for more then 20 years, this is heaven came true…
I will go to my basement and show you on what I was training with for more then 10 years from the early 90s!
I never said I was using VR to train. VR and multiplayer were things I use to enjoy for fun with other riders, which have all quit using the multiplayer. I would like that option to make a comeback but I guess Zwift is the only option now. Not as much of a fan for Zwift because of the maps. I am still using the Fortius machine with the old Fortius software at times but it is just to ride some of the RLV videos I like.
That is ecaxtly what I thought. I loved to ride Sufferfest Videos while I was doing my Intervalls. But Zwift was really a game changer for me…
I would not say that I am addicted, but time flies by like it never did in any indoor training I did before…
Can anyone help me out plz?
Im having problems with the powermeter .
My stages power reading is always displaying higher wattage than the neo.
Its around 50w higher.
Thats really a big issue for me , i cant train my zones like this, and my ftp test would be worthless.
I normally dont use the bike with the stages on the neo , so thats no solution :(
Any else encounter this ?
Tacx support is looking into factory calibration numbers for me.
I assume you don’t have a third power meter available so it will be a bit tough to tell whether it’s the power from the Stages or Neo that’s off, or possibly both. I compared power data files from a couple of my rides and the Stages and Neo agree very well. Any difference was typically within 2%, sometimes higher but that could very well be due to left/right unbalance not captured by the Stages.
That would be ideal, but dont have a third :(
I just felt way off to start with because ive been used to the the Stages data .
I suppose it could be the stages that is off , but it always felt correct in relation to speed and feel .
If it’s always a certain number or percentage off—then you can quite easily use it for power training. You really don’t know which is off (or which accounts for which part of the difference) since the stages isn’t the perfect power meter to begin with. Ride your stages on the neo at different power levels (0-500W let’s say at 50 W intervals) and record the difference, you now have your translator between the two.
Hi all,
A little post to update the group. I have been the owner of a neo since beg. Of October. What started as a smooth and silent Neo, became more and more noisy (clicking, vibrating, etc.) but nothing very serious so I just didn’t pay much attention to it and continued using it. This morning, little surprise…the Neo doesn’t freewheel anymore!!!! Last training sesh was Thursday and I haven’t touched the Neo since then!!! I guess the EDCO is dead! Thank you Tacx! Will submit a ticket with their support team! It is quite unacceptable that so many people have problems with this trainer and no Ray, I don’t agree with what you said, this is not something that seems to be marginal. It looks like Tacx are having serious design and quality control problems, plain and simple!
Update: if you use an allen key and untighten the black screw than holds the EDCO against the axle, it starts freewheeling again, so the EDCO is definitely dead. 1 month of use 2-3x a week and that’s it, great!
hi guys; another tacx user here. And the lucky one – touch wood – everything is in order everything works. A few questions if you dont mind:
– gumballing – what is it? sorry never heard it
– i do get a bit of a hissing noise when i turn on the trainer (ie plug in) – does it need to be turned off after training – i do it now because it seems it ‘remembers’ the last resistance level; so this way i am resetting it
– i do find the unit is getting very hot during workouts – i am living in tropical climate – so i do use fan at the back since my kurt kinetic days however when once i didn’t you could actually smell the plastics. is it normal?
– on the subject of the firmware update – do you guys find the resistance level is too hard? seen some comments to this effect
– and lastly when is the firmware update coming to android users?
Well Campagnolo 10s 53X39, and a 12-26 block, and we are in business… have clearance on the top pulley from the flywheel and bottom pulley for the frame of the trainer.. not alot, but its there and I don’t have to worry about the derailleur making contact… I think my routine maintenance is going to be to every 10 days grease the freehub sleeve.. really for what its worth, you don’t even need to take the cassette off… mine has been quiet but I greased it lastnite for poops n giggles… wasn’t much grease in mine at all.. My drivetrain seems to be in much better alignment now with the 10s and no chatter or extrme chainangles I was experiencing with 11s… I guess 10s still does have its place!! :)
They are just end caps… the system is not like a mavic road wheel where the axle needs to be pulled to get the freehub off… simply put in a 5mm allenkey and turn the end cap off… the freehub will just pull straight out! I had my cassette off already as I was changing to 10s, but aside from maybe making it easier to squeeze the pawls in so it fits there is no need to remove the cogs at all…
I’m really in two minds on what to do. Have a Tacx Fortius which I bought in 2009 and had less amounts of issues with software which cost me much training time. Thankfully, it’s been performing solidly the last 18 months. I use my power2max power meter for power and cadence data via ANT+ to Trainer Road or Zwift, but I’ve reached the point where I want ergomode. And I like the idea of a direct drive trainer, so will decide to purchase in the next few days either a Tacx Neo or a Wahoo Kickr (not finding that in stock in many places though).
Based in Dublin, Ireland and so will order internationally. I’m tempted to opt for the Neo as I like the idea of being able to use it unplugged before races/time-trials, and the lower noise level. And while I know the errors reported here may give a disproportionately high impression of the real issue rate, it is naturally a concern to see these issues. Delivery and return costs would be significant for me sending it back for repair from Ireland – if I had assurance from Tacx I would not be left out of pocket if I had to send it back, I would probably opt for the Neo, but not sure if that assurance will be possible to obtain.
Last concern would be ergo mode with Trainer Road – I plan to use it for several short duration high intensity intervals on Trainer Road, and if there’s a lag issue which won’t be solved within a matter of weeks, that would swing it towards a Kickr for me….looks like German etailers would be the option in that case at this point in time
Just got my NEO, S/N is 2704. The firmware was not the latest so I updated it with the Tacx utility app, it worked fine, no issue.
I then did a very brief first test. Beside the noise of the chain and the hum from the unit, I neither hear weird noises, nor feel annoying vibrations. At this stage, my NEO looks ok.
I had my LBS owner come over late on Friday to check the bike thoroughly and there no issues to report, everything was setup and indexed correctly. He was pretty impressed overall with the Neo, but confirmed that the “rubbing noises” I still have were definitely from the unit and not caused by any bike setup. I had a good ride on Zwift yesterday and it seems 8/10 to me.
Today I got Charlotte to sit on the bike and pedal whilst I took a couple of recordings. They are at lower wattage’s, but it only gets worse with more power. These were taken with the phone approximately 2ft from the Neo / cassette.
I also noticed that at lower wattage the cadence was all over the place. Whilst she was pedaling @ a steady 70-80rpm the numbers in Zwift were bouncing between 60 & 140 whilst being mostly in the range of 120-140. I’ve not noticed this myself whilst riding, but I rarely look at the cadence and are always running with more power, so not sure how much to take from this.
I’ve sent the recordings to TACX too, so will look forward to their opinion tomorrow.
In short, sounds shit. The only opinion that anyone could possibly have is “knackered, return to sender”.
As for the cadence, I never had an issue with mine. What I will say however is that at low wattages you do start to see irregularities with all trainers.
a) Generally, I think its that power inaccuracy is accepted at low wattages; certainly in terms of crank based power meters which measure strain at the metal level, it all gets a bit tricky :)
b) The KICKR has such good inertia that at very low wattage the inertia of the flywheel can sometimes “overtake” your pedalling such that the reported power drops out for a minute. Nothing wrong/inaccurate, its just that – your power wasn’t needed on that pedal revolution, the flywheel was going faster anyway
c) Consider the Neo works out cadence by measuring power around the circle and assuming that the downstroke will deliver most power, therefore by counting the downstrokes, you have cadence. Now think about what I said about the kickr, where power drops out, think also about the fact that if little power is being delivered it might be harder to identify the downstroke. In addition, if a rider had a good “scrape and pull up” technique, then at low wattage there might not even be a bigger downstroke, it might be almost near perfect 100% power around the circle.
Essentially, I’d make the sweeping statement that (for blokes at least), its unlikely that someone who spends over £1k on a trainer isn’t capable of delivering more than 150W all the time and all these problems disappear over 100W – 150W. If you can’t generate much power at all, why did you buy the Neo ;-) would be my first retort :)
Having said all that, my son (8yrs old) rode the Neo round Zwift island a few times and even at his very low wattage, had no issues with cadence reporting, so certainly it looks like the unit is capable of working it out. Blame Charlotte, tell her its all her fault and she has to stay in next time for the Neo collection/return :)
@Lee. lol. I will pass that information on to her later ?
Your main points make perfect sense and the fact she may have been travelling slightly downhill during the worst inaccuracy bears that out. Going uphill she was applying 140w+ and the cadence was working fine. I don’t think this is a big issue, just bringing it up whilst on the general topic.
Judging by your comment on the videos you too feel this isn’t the way it’s meant to be. Although you can’t hear this as clearly cycling as you can from the video taken near to the Neo you can feel it. And I have 2 worries.
1) It’s now 8/10, but for well over £1,000 I feel it should be 10/10. I will always know / suspect it’s not quite right.
2) This is a rubbing noise and that suggests it could rub until it causes a bigger issue or it could just carry on getting worse. Which also doesn’t breed confidence.
Andrew (UK) – I had the exact same noise on my first Neo and Tacx decided when they reviewed the sound clips that it needed a replacement. A simple process of the LBS organising collection from my house and shipping direct to Fisher Outdoor and the replacement Neo direct to me (took about 6 working days). I don’t think its power related but more rotational speed related – use a 50-12 gear combo and get the cadence to about 90/95 and that noise should disappear regardless of the power.
I’m unlucky to receive a 2nd knackered Neo but I have decided to wait 6 months or so for the majority of issues to be fixed. I was nearly swayed by the positive comments on this blog and the compensatory offers by Tacx but I have to accept the realism that a c£1000 trainer should be mechanically perfect and have an expectation that the firmware/software will catch up later… but in this case it looks like both are lacking.
I would like to point out that Tacx support have been excellent in all aspects of issues so if you feel you want to persevere and get an awesome NEO then I’m positive they’ll sort it eventually.
@Jase. Sorry to hear that you too have received a 2nd broken Neo. Yet more evidence that there are still issues and these are still significant. I can understand why you’ve given in for now and decided to wait, I’m not sure what to do next either. On one hand I want to keep trying because I really want a Neo that works, it’s the holy grail. But on the other hand I’ve had 2 already, delivery / collection is very hard to organise and I have no confidence at all that another unit would be issue free. Every time TACX sent out a new one you are simply joining the lottery.
As you say, TACX have been very good. They are genuinely helpful and trying to resolve my issues. Responses are quick and they are listening to the recordings I’ve taken / trying to resolve. They must be very frustrated with all these issues too.
Finally. If the issues are with the EDCO hub then it doesn’t breed confidence. In this case the chances are that you’ll either have issues straight away or that they will develop later. And (as you say) this could take months to diagnose and resolve.
I just bought a brand new Neo from Starbike.com in Germany. I am in the U.S. Received it just yesterday. And of course, I have a metallic clanging sound. Lucky me. Tacx says I have to go through the retailer in Germany, but I don’t want to ship back. Could you tell me how you finally resolved your situation? Would you be willing to take listen to my sound file? Any help would be appreciated. Does it sound like yours?
Wise choice, cause this is for real riders… :-) Only 5-gears, no gumball or sawbone…
All you need are two legs and a bike with a saddle…
But you would be surprised how silent this thing was…
Not slopy and the wattage was set by cable…
I may will give him a little service check up and make a little video.
I greased my hub on the Neo and now questioning the gap between flywheel and hub. Also I don’t see how the hub could go in any further. Can someone confirm that this is indeed correct assembled?
I just got thrown off by it, but then measured the depth of the body and the ratchet.
Maybe I should have just paid more attention when I was taking it apart to make sure it looks identical after.
I really hope you get your trainer back in that time frame, I was 6 weeks without a trainer when my Vortex was playing up and it came back with the same faults.
That’s worrying. I work for a law firm so if the process becomes too strung out ill have to have a chat with someone to see at what point I’m able to exercise some consumer rights and just force a refund/rebuy a different trainer from elsewhere.
It looks like the edco units are the problem. I would trie to replace the edco instead of sending the unit. 5 minutes work and your trainer is good to go.
Pretty sure it’s NOT the free hub with the saw one issue. As has been demonstrated in this thread a few times, you need to put lateral pressure on the spinning metal cover to reduced the noise.
My problems are documented earlier in the thread but brief overview is back hub not spinning/freewheeling, vibrations throughout bike, generally not sounding good.
I reported it to Tacx last Monday, received a response on Wednesday which was advice to replace the edcomodule. Tacx sent a new module on Thursday and it arrived today (following Monday).
No instructions were given with the edcomodule. It literally just turned up in a plastic bag in a box, no other information. I’m not very mechanically minded but can do the few bits of basic maintenance that I need to and so managed to work out how to fit the new edcomodule in about five minutes. Very easy job but still would have been nice to have some instruction.
Tried it very quickly and now the hub does freewheel! So it looks as though the edcomodule was the problem. It sounds as I would expect the device to sound (very quiet). I will give it a proper go tomorrow with TR and report back. Fingers crossed it may be fixed.
That’s good news. I hope your longer test tomorrow works out fine. Maybe you saved some of us from sending the unit in. Such an easy fix would be great. Thanx for keeping us posted.
There’s only so many hours in the day and so many devices to review. I iterate through them as best as possible, typically based on when companies get me final production units. In this case that was roughly back in mid-October or so that a final-final unit came with the updated firmware that others are running. Trainers are quite honestly the toughest to ‘order’ in the review queue because I can only ride one trainer per workout. Whereas a GPS watch/power meter/etc, I can multi-task 3-4 at once. In the case of the last few weeks, I’ve also had other trainers come in that warranted looking at ahead of my trainer guide. Like most triathletes, I basically alternate riding and running each day. Sometimes if I’m really bored I’ll swim.
Sale listing date isn’t of much value to me, since I like to work with final products/software for any in-depth reviews.
I could put out a review now, based on my experience – but I’m actually kinda just watching things a bit here in the comments a bit to see how they play out. I’m not sure my review would honestly say anything different than what I’ve covered in the comments or post at this point. For me my hardware works fine, so it really comes down the price and noise value – of which I talked about a bit in my trainer guide last week.
Lastly, I suspect I won’t do a straight NEO review, but am instead working towards a combo review of all the Tacx units at once. This is mostly because I’ve had the Bushido/Satori/Vortex Smart for a year, the Genius Smart since July, and the Neo in two different units since September. While the hardware is different, there’s also a lot of similarities on the software/app side that I can basically talk to 5 trainers with the review writing work of probably 2.5 trainers. Roughly.
Will you be doing an end of year turbo trainer review Ray? I am currently looking at upgrading mine. I was convinced I was going to go for the Kickr, but slightly tempted by the Elite Real Muin and to a lesser extent the Neo. It would be nice to hear which you’d pick out of the 3 of them.
I was wanted what you had to say about the consistency of the power output, compared to trusted power meters.
I’m not that happy with my Kickr power accuracy.
I could add an external power source and use that, but:
a) Would only work with TrainerRoad I believe – and not Zwift
b) Could be more cost effective to buy the Neo and sell the Kickr
A) Zwift has noted they are investigating adding it
B) Probably depends on country
Fwiw, PerfPro also supports such an option, and I think someone else I can’t remember off-hand (Veloreality?).
That said, for KICKR accuracy – be sure you’re on the absolute latest firmware, and also ensure you’re doing a spin-down (10-15mins in). Also, if you’re see really odd stuff, you may want to have them reset the optical sensor (you can do it yourself, just need their instructions). And finally, they also have loaner calibration kits too you can get.
As an FYI to those who bought NEO’s through Clever Training, they received a bunch of pallets today of NEO’s, covering all existing back-orders and with a small handful leftover for any new orders.
The pallets came in pretty late in the day, so I’m not sure off-hand if any made the local shipping pickup time cutoffs or not – but either way they’ll all go out tomorrow.
I’ve been following this thread from the beginning and finally jumped on board tonight ordering through Clever Training. ALL FINGERS CROSSED! I’ll report back with how one off these pallets fairs.
People getting new batch Neo’s please update with your results. I am very close to cancelling my Neo pre-order and getting a Kickr instead. Silence is very valuable to me, but having a working trainer is even more valuable……
From what I understand that noise comes from air that is being pushed through somewhere at the spinning disc. Typically it goes away if you change your cadence or shift up and down.
Hi all
I’ve followed this thread from the start, thank you all for sharing your experiences. My Neo ships to me in the UK in a couple of days. I’ll be sure to post good, bad or indifferent experiences here…FYI Im an experienced home mechanic/racer and have been using a Cateye Cyclosimulator for the last 15 years so it will be quieter than that :-) Spoke to my UK supplier only one issue relating to an edco hub problem, he said Tacx was excellent in dealing with problems, glass always half full in my experience as an early adoptor.
Cheers DD
Mine is also due on Thursday in the UK but im not holding my breath as it has been delayed 4 times so far.
If it does arrive im hoping they have ieoned out some of the issues you.guys have encountered.
I too have swayed back and forth regarding these Neo issues but finally went for the Kickr as soon as new stock in the UK arrived. Really glad I did too and now see it was foolish to wait a few months with the Neo delays to my pre-order. With a discount on the Kickr the price difference to the Neo was several hundred pounds. Tacx appear to be working on resolving their teething problems but surprised that they haven’t recalled the dodgy stock. I wouldn’t have the patience to receive two or three bad units particularly during trainer season. Tacx should be flushing them out themselves. The UK does still havs stock since the last shipment so they aren’t selling. However, if people are waiting for the Neo to bed down before they buy then they will still be running the gauntlet of bad units for quite some time.
A wise choice I feel. My LBS contacted me yesterday and have a new shipment of Neo’s and wondered if I wanted to try one. I don’t think I’ll bother to be frank.
Since fitting new drivetrain, my KICKR is VERY smooth. In terms of power calibration I have recently found that the discrepancy between KICKR and Stages PM is because my left leg / right leg balance is slightly out…allowing for that and the KICKR is spot on. The KICKR is bombproof, works with everything and even if you had an absolutely perfect working Neo, the smoothness and speed of resistance change is far better on the KICKR.
The only downside to a KICKR right now is noise, but if you use it in ERG mode, use the little ring and whatever rear cog is smoothest/quietest, it really is no big deal. My fan or TV makes more noise.
And as you say, KICKR can be had far far cheaper. Recently Wiggle did a 17% discount for platinum members (I daresay they’ll do this again post crimbo) and it could be had for £740.
In six months time Neo reliability will be established and the usual Tacx discounts will price the Neo well under £800. I paid more than that for the Kickr but it feels worth it. I didn’t feel the noise was that bad and actually a little whine covers up a fair amount of transmission clack.
Also I was surprised how uneven my garage floor was so the foot adjustment on the Kickr needed quite a bit of tweaking. Couldn’t have done that on the Neo.
@Dan S – As you are running yours in your garage the KickR is currently a dead cert. It’s far cheaper, been out for ages and the bugs all sorted. In the privacy / luxury of your garage there seems little point in taking a risk on a Neo.
The temptation to buy Neo’s comes from the (many) people that live in flats and need to keep the noise to a minimum for so many reasons. Then you need to take a ticket and enter the lottery.
My 2nd Neo is now waiting to be collected (along with the spare hub TACX sent – which wouldn’t freewheel). Support currently have no answers for the rubbing / sawing I recently linked, but they are working on it and hopefully the Neo being returned will give them some big pointers. The service from support is still very good and this gives me a little confidence that this will be eventually fixed and in the meantime at least my current one is usable. I still keep thinking that if they can make a quiet one for Ray then I’ve got a chance too…
I read this long thread with a bit of anxiety, as I have ordered a NEO and I realized too late there were potential quality issues.
My NEO arrived today, and I unpacked and installed in about 20 minutes. Then went for a 1 hour session with Zwift and Veloreality, just to test it a bit. (note that before that I used an iGenius “dumb” version for a couple of years)
My first impression is that it is an amazing product.
It’s extremely silent, no rattles, no vibrations, no gumball noise, etc. The slight side movement adds realism and slopes above 6 % are very realistic(finally!!!) as there is no tire slippage.
My iGenius was noisy like a airplane during take-off, and tire slippage made my trainings very unconfortable for slopes well above 6%; the NEO in this respect is on another planet – even pushing hard on the pedals for 700-800W it’s amazing that the only slight noise i hear is the bike chain.
So far I’m a very happy NEO customer :-)
The only (minor) issue I’ve found is that… there is no power button, and to turn it off I need to unplug the cable (unless I’m missing something). A bit annoying, but I think I can live with that ;-)
Mario. Good to hear that people are getting working units in new batches! -though of course most people have been getting working units since the start we must assume.
You are correct about a power button. You do know it operates without power too,right? Albeit without freewheel down hills
Yes, indeed, I know, and as you say the downhill simulation is a nice plus that I wouldn’t want to miss, at least not during RL video training or such.
I think I’ll sort it out by adding a power cable with a foot switch.
Mario- I also received my Neo today and my results are as good as yours. I have been a Fortius user since 2007 and a Genius user for the past year. Just a 20 min ride so far on zwift, because it is after midnight for me now, and I am very happy. I really enjoyed the little swaying motion especially climbing. It really added some realism to the feel of the ride. I was mostly impressed with the smoothness of climbing. On the Fortius anything over 10% was nasty and choppy, with the Genius anything over 8% was not realistic for me but with the Neo so far all the grades in zwift felt smooth and realistic. what is your serial number? mine is 00828. I bought mine through clever training here in the US. I don’t think you need to worry about unplugging the trainer. I always left my Fortius on for years and also my Genius all the time. No problems. Glad to hear more people reporting positive reports on their Neo’s. I have two other Tacx friends that received their Neo’s yesterday. All bought through clever training. We ride TTS4 on multiplayer and have been doing that for years on Fortius. I will get them to also post here with their results. Happy riding.
Quoting Taxc FAQ: “Tacx will come with an adapter that can be used on the current models. The ETA will take some time however and we do not have a delivery for this at the moment. More information will follow in November.”
Quoting Tacx FAQ: “Tacx will come with an adapter that can be used on the current models. The ETA will take some time however and we do not have a delivery for this at the moment. More information will follow in November.”
My neo just shipped– wahoo! (pun intended). Ok so what else do I need to purchase to make this work? Just a cassette or do I need some tools and whatnot? Sorry this thread is so long it’s hard to find everything we need. A campag lockring tool? Which one? Excited to test this bad boy out, will report back asap…
Hi Joe
You need a campag cassette tool and a chain whip so you can hold the cassette whilst you tighten the lock ring onto the cassette, I appreciate not everyone will have the cassette tool if you are on shimano so will have to buy or borrow one, I wouldnt fancy carrying one to my local bike shop
Had my neo for 24 hours. I must let you know I am an intermediate cyclist. Did 1 lap on zwift this morning and this thing is awesome. Can’t comment if power is accurate, but the mph is very similar to my outdoor riding. So far loving everything about this trainer. Sooooo quiet. Glad I spent the extra money. This is going to change my life. Exercise is finally fun. My goal is to lose 30 lbs. Lost 10 with diet alone. Now I am stuck at 188lbs. This is going to complete my lifestyle change. Trainer looks darn sexy sitting behind my cadd10. Can’t imagine it feeling any more realistic than this. Bring on winter!
Some inspiration for you…I started riding in 2014 at around 210lbs. Towards the end of the year I was 190lbs. I was fed up getting dropped on hills and had booked some “nasty” rides for 2015 like KTGs Tour of the Peaks. So on 1st Jan I gave up alcohol and went on a strict diet combined with a 1 hour workout every day. Can’t remember when I started riding outside again but I stuck to a “little and often” approach. By mid-may I was 165lbs and thats when I did the Tour of the Peaks. I lost a bit more after, but soon realised you need to be carb’d up for long rides so spent the rest of the year making sure I ate enough to achieve my rides. I spent the entire summer/autumn at 168lbs.
I decided that winter time is the obvious time to lose weight because you can sack off the outdoor weekend slogs and just go back to indoor “little and often”. I decided to spend Oct/Nov/Dec losing weight and from Jan onwards I’ll hit the gym/intensity-workouts and build strength.
6th October I started – 170lbs. I’m currently 160lbs.
I have not touched one drop of alcohol since 1st Jan, and whilst my strict diet is indeed strict, my summertime diet was one of “eat plenty, but eat right” with occasional treats. It is indeed a lifestyle change.
I bust my supersix evo on my kickr last year and its been hanging on all this time with a snapped frame, just good enough for the trainer. Last week I bought a 2015 CAAD8 as a replacement. Needed an 11sp so I can swap bikes quickly on my trainer without changing cassette. So far its riding smoooooth :)
So stick in there mate. Just remember – little and often is the key to both exercise and food. I ride with my son to school and go the long way back to make it around 11 miles in the morning. I do a solid hour every day at lunch, do a short 5 mile school run in the afternoon, occasionally might go on the trainer in the evening but tend not do – overdoing it is just as bad as underdoing it.
Thanks Lee that is very inspiring. I have cut alcohol back from about 6 -8 beers a week to 2-4 a month. That has really helped. My metabolism is pitiful due to lack of a regular exercise program and having a desk job. Your weight loss journey sounds similar to mine. I hope to be joining you in the sub 170lb club some time in 2016. Still waiting on my HR monitor to show up so i am starting off easy. My blood pressure is already coming down just with the small 10lb weight loss. Cant wait to actually get my cardiovascular system in shape. So many people in my life have been having heart surgery for clogged arteries, heart attacks, dieing, most of them late 40’s to late 50’s. Im 32 and the time to act was yesterday so better late than never!
I’m 41 now and spent all my adult like behind desks in IT jobs. The bottom line is that humans aren’t meant to spend their days sitting. Just get a step counter and compare a normal deskjob day to a weekend day where you might be doing nothing more than tidying the house,spot of hoovering etc.
Dunno what my resting heart rate was before I started cycling, but it would have been average or perhaps over average. Certainly all BMI charts and similar put me down as obese.
Today my resting HR is around 45 and for every BMI/fat chart etc I’m green all the way. I eat better and more now than I did before and have more energy.
As we say – cycling can bring around a complete lifestyle change :)
Hi all another happy customer my Neo arrived today and I set it up in about 10 mins running 11speed Shimano di2. I did 1 1/2 hours on Zwift and it was totally silent very impressed also with the freewheeling downhill. I train with a stages power meter and I didn’t have it on my bike but the power speed and cadence matched well to my road rides. I do sympathise with those of you that had issues but wanted to comment on a positive experience
I had a scary incident with my NEO yesterday morning, since then I have reported the issue to Support with no response. I am posting here as there seems to be some more attention to DC than support.
What happened: After about an hour of structured workout via zwift that worked just fine I switched over to a free ride and was going to end the ride after the sprint point. At about 3/4 the way through my sprint effort the NEO locked up, the resistance went all the way up for no reason at all. Locking up the cranks at over 1000 watts is extremely bad for my knees (as I have now found), the derailler hanger, seat stays…you get the point. I have a couple of questions to the group:
1) Has anyone else had this happen to them, if so was there a remedy?
2) Does anyone have an idea why this occurred, especially during a sprint?
3) How would I test this without tearing apart the unit (don’t see how that would help.) or tempting fate again by repeating the sprint effort?
A) Is it still locked?
B) I’ve seen this with a few other trainers occur – extremely rare – and almost always a software bug on the app side. For example an app telling the trainer to deliver 2,000w (which would feel like a lock-up). It’d be interesting to look at the Zwift file and see what the recorded power values are.
C) You’d have to wait for Tacx support there, though honestly it may be worth bringing up to Zwift as well.
The unit unlocked when i unplugged it and rolls just fine now. The .fit file shows a near 1000 watt effort spike with an abrupt decline, which is the point at which the resistance when up. If this is a software issue how do I resolve that? I am android user, which is a standard tacx is working on.
Strange, i looked at the fit file you sent over, but I only see a top wattage of about 310w just before it dropped off. The .FIT file was dated the 11th, any chance it was a different file?
As an aside, I did get a note from Tacx today. They admit there is a problem. The resolution is the Utility app that is available to IPhone, not android users like me. So I have a stealthy designed paper weight until Tacx can get it’s act together. They should probably just recall all affected units and get through this mess.
After finding a neighbor who was kind enough to lend me his phone I was feeling confident about the NEO. Short lived confidence unfortunately, Saturday’s ride was fine so I ramped it up a bit on Sunday and yep a major skip that lead to a lock. After relaying this back to Tacx they have admitted that the unit is probably faulty and suggest I get a replacement. Unfortunately, all the bad reviews thus far seem to not deter purchases so I have heard nothing about when I might actually get a replacement device. Couple this with the fact that the company cannot seem to ship it’s software in a timely manner (Friday will be 3 weeks) and I say stay away from Tacx all together. On the plus side, it’s very quiet and is reliable outside of a sprint.
Further update. Going nowhere with TACX so that is going to have to be returned for a refund. The question then comes down to Wahoo Kickr or Elite Real or something else? Suggestions?
If you want a wheel-off trainer, then surely it has to be the KICKR. The Elite Muin has been criticised for the amount of time it takes to change resistance as its basically using a motor/screw to move a magnet up and down.
Alternatively – as well as a KICKR I have a KICKR Snap. Same unit in terms of software compatibility/features but a wheel-on design which is more convenient for wife/son. Its absolutely quiet (no KICKR “whine”) and the smoothest wheel-on trainer I’ve ever used.
Just got my NEO also. Been riding a Kickr for over year and a Computrainer before that and many other before that. Based on initial impressions, I love the NEO. It is super smooth and quiet. So far, I can say it is nicer than the Kickr, which is very good.
Several minor quibbles:
– I have a 11 speed campy drivechain and the big cog it too close to the metal disc to use without the derailleur cage hitting..
– I have 175 mm cranks and if I drop my heels, they hit the plastic legs
– my frame seat stays are awfully close to the trainer body
All these really don’t affect my riding, but they shouldn’t be an issue since they could easily be designed away with small changes in dimensions.
I’m not a picky equipment nebbish, so I can live with small annoyances…
Hey Mattv- I am also running Campy and also have that same problem. I am running 10 speed but also can not shift into the biggest rear cog without the derailleur arm rubbing against the metal disc. This is not really a Tacx problem but I think a little more testing would have brought this to light. I was hoping Tacx could come up with a solution like an altered or modified free hub body that would bring the camp derailleur just a millimeter away from the disc when in the largest rear cog. We will see what fix if any might be in the near future.
Its not just a campy thing, I have the same thing with my di2 10sp. even worse, the dérailleur catches the plastic, not the metals and has put light scoring in it.
Yep.. noticed that problem weeks ago when I first got my Neo.. I since changed back to an old Pinarello frame and Campagnolo 12-25 10s block.. although the instructions said not to, I put the .5mm spacer behind the casette to push the cog out a little more and get a better chainline…. working great so far.. but I find any drivetrain noise is really amplified!!
Ok- so this morning was my second ride on my new Tacx Neo- rode in Tacx TTS4 software and road a RLV for an hour. Still everything is perfect, quiet as can be, smooth as can be and a big success. With that being said I have ONE small observation.
When I came downstairs to my bike man cave I heard the faintest sound- it was like someone lightly blowing into a glass bottle top, or someone running a wet finger around the rim of a crystal glass. Very very quiet but I barely caught it. When I knelt down next to the Neo it was coming from inside. I left it plugged in and thought this was normal to do so but after hearing this noise and finishing my ride I still heard it so I unplugged it and the noise stopped. Nothing is actually turning inside physically that I could feel but it must just be an electronic noise. I will ask Tacx about it but wanted to ask how many Neo owners are leaving their trainers plugged into the power outlet? and if you are can you take a second to listen very closely to the trainer to see if you hear any noise while it is at complete rest. I have owned a Fortius for years and also a Genius. I always left them plugged in and on so I did not think twice with the Neo. I am now gong to unplug it when I am done riding each time.
I thought the grade changes were also spot on especially compared to my Genius. I have google earth running in TTS4 as well so I can see the profile and the map to compare when and where I am at in comparison to what the RLV is showing as I am riding. Great Trainer.
OK so just to clarify how to use zwift with macbook pro with neo and get it displayed onto my TV. I need a Garmin ant+ dongle that I plug into my computer. The Neo communicates directly with this so that is all I absolutely need to purchase to run Zwift on my macbook pro, but I can use apple TV to mirror it onto my real big screen TV at home if I want to as well.
And if I want to actually control the Neo from my handlebars I’d also need to get an Ant+ dongle for iPhone/iPad like the Wahoo Fitness Fisica Sensor Key and use that ton control resistance on the trainer from handlebars?
Picked up a Neo on Wednesday after a lengthy internal debate about Kickr V Neo, it was the noise that finally swung it for me.
My initial impressions are very positive, the feel is very nice and the ERG mode in TR worked very well for me, hitting 99% accuracy on every interval. Early days but I’m happy so far. The only slight hesitation I have is I occasionally feel a slight vibration through the pedals (I might grease the freehub and see if that resolves), also backpedalling can cause the chain to momentarily stick which is odd. The hub may be a weak spot on these.
The other issue is the power accuracy isn’t there, I’m finding the Neo over reading by around 10-12 watts compared to my Vectors (I’d have expected a slight under read given the downstream location of the Neo). I’ve raised with Tacx so will see what they say, running the latest firmware.
How do you know your Vectors are accurate? From what I recall of DC’s tests they seemed to offer slightly different readings to the mainstream….friend of mine (who has had a bunch of PMs) bought a set, fiddled, got them replaced by Garmin, fiddled some more, eventually just sold them. Wasn’t happy at all.
I always use the rule of three :) Get two PMs that agree and then see how they relate to a third. Messy business this PM stuff :)
Both of my Neos reads a bit low. When doing intervals at 300 watt, both my other power meters (Quarq and Vector 2, on two different bikes) give about 8 watt more. My friend also see the exact same power readings (Vector 2) from his Neo. For my it’s clear that Tacx has done something wrong here with the calibration.
Yeah, 8-10w @ 300w is well within the accuracy range of either unit. Both are roughly 2%, which at 300w is +/-6w each, so a total range of 12w. And that’s before you account for drivetrain and other losses.
As for your Tacx reading lower than Garmin – that’s exactly what it should be doing (and roughly about where you are). In fact, I’d say your readings are likely perfect.
Ok, I see now that my comment didn’t showed the irony that I meant..
What I actually meant was that for me this is SPOT ON. Simply because two different Neos shows the exact same power outputs. And yes, I also know the difference in measuring points..But I take critic for a bad try for some irony here ;)
Agree with Andrew. I don’t get all this people complaining its not accurate as it doesn’t match their power meter. As long as the power is the same every time, you can work with it. If you use Trainer road you can match the power, never used it but seen it mentioned a few times. Power consistency is more important to me than accuracy compared to my power meter. I would have thought 8w at 300w will be well within the power tolerances of both devices anyway.
The reason I am looking to upgrade as well as many other faults and flaws with my vortex, 200w at 5 minutes is completely different to 10 minutes, and then it changes again after 20, 30, 40 50 minutes. The power is never consistent, even if you do a warm up and calibration test prior to starting your workout. If your NEO is consistently showing 8w difference I’d be interested in one.
Here’s why accuracy is important. This is from *my* perspective, not a hard and fast rule so YMMV.
I regard turbo as training, and outdoor riding is the enjoyment, or the ability to put that training into use.
I use the turbo to understand my thresholds and what I’m capable of. It might be my power over an hour (which I would use on a 25 mile TT), or it might be my sustained power for 5 minutes (which I would use on a hill climb).
So if I get to a point where I think my 1 hour power output is 250W, but then I did my TT and I blow up after 10 minutes because my power meters don’t agree, then its a problem.
One theory is that you should train with the some power meter as you ride with. Well thats great, but makes the purchase of a smart trainer somewhat redundant.
Or, if you don’t use a power meter outside at all, your indoor power meter/trainer needs only to be consistent with itself.
And this is all before the other issue you refer to which is drift, based on temperature/use. Thats a whole different problem :)
I kinda agree. For me I train by week by TSS score. So whilst consistency is critical, accuracy is also vital so I can track whether I’m hitting my planned training load. I’m in base at the moment so it’s low intensity, seeing 10 watts delta at 200 watts is a 5% delta from my vectors, and it’s an over read when it should be an under read taking into account drive train loss. So if you assume my vectors aren’t bang on then it’s outside the limit of +/- 2% on each device. If I get a chance I’ll swap my p2m onto my turbo bike and add another data point.
Sure I can keep the vectors on the turbo bike and use that to control the load but I expected a closer track to be honest.
Update from me. I’ve decided to return my neo for a refund. Post edco change it still isn’t working as advertised and I’m getting a lot of vibration through the bike when pushing 200w, 300w etc. I’ve had enough of messing around with it.
I’m glad others have positive experiences but I’m going to wait a good while before considering one again. I have zero confidence the proper checks have been done sadly. Such a shame as the concept is great. Best of luck to those persevering.
Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you had the same issue I still do and currently there is no fix / solution forthcoming. Some positive comments starting to come in on new ones though, which is promising.
My Kickr is about 20 watt lower than my quarq, but it is super consistent, thus comparisons to the outside riding are extremely relevant. Have not yet compared to Neo, maybe tonight.
I think someone needs to start a trainer certification program and go to everyone’s house and do random trainer inspections. These power discrepancies are a disgrace to the sport…….
That depends on the software you are using to control the Neo. For example TR will allow you to programme the above right now. Zwift will not, but has stated the functionality is coming “soon”.
Still nobody put a 51cm Cervelo P5 on yet?
Still no local stockists here and I don’t wan’t to order online just to have to bundle it straight back to them
I would say it depends on the year. Looking at the 2016 model I would guess you would have a problem. Basically I will say that any chainstay that doesn’t run in a direct line from the dropout to the bottom of the bottom bracket would be a “must get confirmation”. If you look at the 2016 P5 Six you can see that the chainstay runs deeper because it comes down behind the brakes. I would also assume the bikes like Scott, with their bent chainstays would also require confirmation. I would suggest that any other frame that runs straight, and fits their template, would be more likely to be ok.
Kudos to nicx – post #952 for identifying the cause of the sawbone issue and coming up with a fix.
Received an email this morning from Tacx, the sawbone issue has been investigated and the vibration/noise is one of the main bearings in the metal disc.
*IF* you had a suitable puller, you “could” do the fix yourself, but I really don’t think Tacx want nor expect any user to do this.
AFAIK this is the only remaining noise issue with the Neo. Others have reported whistlings or hums etc but that just sounds like normal operation noises.
So I suspect any units now manufactured will have a bearing washer and some grease applied in the factory :)
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I will be at the tacx company this afternoon. I had a high sound on my tacx neo. It will prolly be the welding residu. Will keep you updated
Good Morning Mr. Hilko / Tacx,
So regarding noise you mentioned the first patch might have that issue – can you report how to find out if my NEO is first patch or not?
Sometimes there is some rattling noise, but definitely not at each ride….
What about the serial numbers?
KR Andreas
Hi Klausnea
If you believe the sound is strange, the best solution is to make a sound recording and send this to support@tacx.com
We can also explain that BAD sound comes from new cassettes using old chains. So sound (cracking sound) can be produced if you have an new cassette and an old chain.
For these these we also make an additional FAQ on our website.
Just been @ the tacx company.
The neo has been swapped with a new one inclyding the new firmware.
Will ride on trainerroad this afternoon.
Hi Marvin,
Please let us know how it goes.
Cheers
Hi,
were Tacx Neo buyers can get the discounted of €80 ?
someOne know ?
regards.
Discount code is in the box.
Ok the good part first;
TR works good now with the new firmware. It gives allmost instant wattage when it needs to.
The bad part this trainer made sucha noise i couldn’t end my workout or the neighbours would have shot me.
When the trainer needed to make resistance there was a gigantic sound (couldnt even hear tv anymore). I will go back to tacx tomorrow
sound
link to drive.google.com
Yes
The grinding noise is related to old cassette and new chain and or new cassette and old chain. We heard the noise of this. If you dont cycle you dont hear anything. So it is very important to have this setup correctly. if you speed up with -5% for example then there should be no sound in the Neo. All other sounds are related to chain etc
hmm the link wasnt correct…… i think :)
link to drive.google.com
Hmm. The “grinding” sound – I had that on my KICKR. It was using a worn chain on a new cassette. A fair bit of the other noise sounds like you haven’t re-indexed your gears.
Hmmm but why didn’t i had that sound before on my other NEO if it’s the chain.
I am using an older chain on a new cassette. I will order a new chain just to be sure.
just to be sure we are talking about the same sound. I am talking about the sound you hear at the start from 0:00 – 0:04 very loud. I ain’t talking about the chain you hear clicking.
I have that exact same sound on my Neo from time to time, no clue what causes it…
I also have this “humming” sound from time to time…
Would be nice if you can sort that out with Tacx, maybe you take your bike with you and show them how it sounds…
i just proposed this to them to sort things out. I am positive we will get this sorted out quickly.
I also have the humming sound. Looks like it’s relative to a change of applied brake force. I have the impression that it is a kind of resonance.
I do not consider it as a very loud noise but it is also present at the Neo of a friend. And he is on his second one. The first one also made this humming sound.
I agree it’s not loud, but it would be good to know if it’s normal to have that “humming” from time to time.
Great news about trainer road
Update: Finally the TACX NEO works as intended. The good people behind Veloreality took my input seriously and released an update tonight which in essence is an update around/coping with Tacx’ interpretation of the ANT+ standard.
I’ve been very happy with the support of the TACX service department, and the design of the NEO but the TT4 software is ahum sub par.. Veloreality has absolutely the smoothest most realistic ride now. Absolutely fantastic to ride Mallorca in 1080p on a a big flatscreen and feel it adapt to every small change in incline.
Dear Tacx peeps, I think you struck gold with the NEO, but needing an iphone to update the NEO?
And the buggy implementation in your own software? Time to wake up fast, luckily the nice people of Veloreality exist somewhere in Canada. As a fellow Dutchman I’d say the language shouldnt be the barrier, their should be enough people in Tacx who speak sufficent english.
Talk to those guys and see if you can list this as software that works with NEO.
If I wouldnt have found it (via the DC rainmaker compare table) I’d have sent the NEO back, and waited for the Kickr 2.
they have an option as well to ride virtually together, I just saw the implementation for the first time and it is the coolest thing. A group ride famous mountains from the basement.
This option is in the version they just released tonight and it is for FREE, as in free beer..
No clue how they can keep the heating on with these prices but I’m a happy camper…
I heard some rumours about sufferfest wotkouts on it, then I’d be awfully happy…
NEO trainer, Veloreality software, a Sony 48″ bargain flatscreen, 15y old magnat surround sound, macbook pro with water damage and for the first time I like indoor training.
let’s see for how long..
Hi Youpmelone,
Do you use veloreality on your macbook pro via something like VMWare / parallels or via bootcamp?
What’s the performance like and what hardware are you using?
I’ve just got a Neo, but at the moment Zwift is crashing (no idea why, my mid 2013 maxed out Macbook Air should easily run it and it used to start) so thinking about giving veloreality a go.
Sorry for intruding. I do not know Youpmelone’s exact configuration but here is some info for you: using bootcamp is preferable since it provides the best performance. Some people are using it with parallels but keep in mind that you have to enable (if not enabled already) DirectX 10 since this is what our software uses. Finally I’ve got a message from customer who had managed to get it running nicely on VMWare Fusion but it required him to upgrade to Fusion 8. He is using Mac Book Pro (did not supply hardware configuration) and Mac El Capitan.
Thanks for that. Right now I don’t want to dedicate the space to bootcamp, but I do have a win7 VMWare image. If that’s worked for someone I’ll give it a go – nothing to lose!
I’m pretty sure it will work fine in vmware.
I got it working in parallels fine.
Looks like Tacx utility just got updated. That and my neo finally shipped from starbike.
Right, nee Tacx Utility with Neo Support is out.
Hilko/Tacx, how about the video you talkend about fort the Firmware Update procedure?
Video really not needed guys. Just did mine.
Open app. Find and select neo.
Go to update.
Then Let the app do its thing.
Every time it asks you to toggle the Bluetooth close the pop up. Bring up the quick settings by flicking up from the bottom of the screen. Turn bt off. Pause for a second or two. Turn it back on. Dismiss the settings menu.
Eventually after 5 mins of faffing it’s done.
Having done that still not seeing these incredibly controlled power profiles in tr that I’ve seen from kickr users. Assume there’s still word to do from tr side.
OK….so today I updated the firmware and knocked out Sufferfest Nine Hammers.
Below is a comparison between the Neo and the KICKR.
1. As you can see, the power output is far smoother on the KICKR. I believe this is purely down to the fact the KICKR has that big heavy flywheel. Sometimes you just can’t beat physics. I suspect that enabling power smoothing would make the Neo graph smoother but I’m comparing apples with apples here.
2. The Neo is still slower to respond to a requested power change.
3. On a power change, the Neo is more inclined to initially “get it wrong” ie you end up over or under delivering by a fair bit. You can see this clearly on the section I’ve marked with a green ring. I iniitally under-delivered at the start of this segment, but on the third increase you can see I over-delivered.
4. As an observation, I noted that on a constant load, I actually ended up over-delivering across the segment. In basic terms, with the Neo you have to work just that little bit harder.
5. The over-delivering resulted in the workout being harder on the Neo:
202 NP / 624 Cal / 85 TSS (Neo)
200 NP / 609 Cal / 83 TSS (KICKR)
Whilst these numbers seem small and perhaps pedantic, the workout *feels* much harder on the Neo. I suspect that because some of the time I was under-delivering on the Neo, this brings the figures back down again. Certainly I felt that the muscular strain on the Neo was a fair bit more than the KICKR.
This is backed up with the Power Zones reading from TrainerRoad.
Neo:
VO2Max (231-264) : 22.5%
Anaerobic (264+) : 5.5%
KICKR
VO2Max (231-264) : 19.1%
Anaerobic (264+) : 4.1%
As to whether this makes a big difference to you or not…..I guess it depends on what level you’re training to. When I’m training for power I’m right on the edge of what I can sustain. The difference here would mean being able to finish vs giving up or lowering the intensity on the Neo.
I haven’t put a TT bike on the trainer yet or done a TT workout on the Neo, but I can imagine that to a TTer who’s riding to an exact wattage, the over-delivering requirement of the Neo wouldn’t be welcome.
Personally I think that for hardcore training and power/figure freaks ( :) ) the KICKR is still the current champion. The Tacx is a more natural ride (somehow smoother, lateral play) and is certainly quieter so perhaps suits the more recreational rider. Certainly Neo on Trainerroad is probably “good enough” now.
Oops heres the pic with the green ringed section I referred to:
Wasn’t it Trainerroad how had to work on their software? So not full Neo firmware related?
Great work, Lee! Thanks for the info! Do you think the differences that you see in regard to resistance is a result of inherent difference in the machines themselves or is it something that may be corrected with more refined programming on the Neo?
Hmmmm not sure to be honest if it can be made much better. The power figures that you get from a Neo are very similar to my stages power meter in as much that they can fluctuate within a crank turn or two…I suspect its partly that no-one has a perfectly smooth power delivery and partly because they sample quite fast.
The KICKR has that big heavy flywheel remember. The guys at trainerroad told me that this acts as a very good smoother. The Neo has a virtual flywheel and so with no real inertia/mass, is open to the same kinds of fluctuation that anything electronic is.
Do you feel the fluctuation? I don’t think so… Loks like it commutes arround 3,4,5 Watts?
I think if you average an intervall NEo VS Kickr, you will get almost the same values…
Nice graphs. Now the question here is were those graphs reflecting power reported by trainers? If yes I’d like to see the same thing but with power taken from power meter instead.
Search this thread for “Zwift Watopia”. I put on some graphs comparing the Neo to my stages power meter. In terms of average figures over an hour they were identical.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to some earlier posts here (and perhaps on the Tacx forum), there’s also still some work to be done on the TrainerRoad side of the equation isn’t there?
Lee, thanks for the data. I have one question, although I might be asking the same as Veloreality: Could you clarify whether these are power data from the trainers or from your Stages power meter, and, in case of the latter, what the PowerMatch setting in TR is (auto, manual, disabled)? Thanks in advance!
In the comparison of Kickr vs Neo its just those trainers. No power meter. I don’t use powermatch. The only reason I have a powermeter on my indoor trainer bike is I bought it ages ago and it cannot be transferred to my other bikes; I found it useful when gauging the accuracy of the kickr.
Thanks for replying!
From the graphs you show, I totally agree that it could indeed be that the KICKR is superior.
On the other hand, given that these are not graphs from the same dedicated power meter used with the two trainers, but the power values reported by the specific trainers, couldn’t it be that the KICKR’s internal “power meter” is both off and averaging (even after spin-down) resulting in a wrong appearance of superior smoothness and response? The KICKR’s control algorithm “believing” and reporting that it’s doing a near perfect job, while in reality it is just being fooled by the deficiencies of it’s internal power meter?
Anyway, just a suggestion. Since you mention that you have done an accuracy test of the KICKR vs a dedicated power meter, what would your take on such a hypothesis be?
From a different perspective, I think Tacx might have nailed at least the power meter accuracy part with the Neo, while Wahoo did not when designing the KICKR.
We are not talking averages here. People are claiming how trainer A gets to set power instantly and the other on is slow. And to prove the point they show graphs made by proprietary software which I think shows heavily processed power reported by trainer. I want to see 1 sec “instant power” graphs taken from power meter instead.
The Neo reminds me of my stages PM in that power fluctuation is quite large, even when trying to pedal as smoothly as possible. On my Garmin when riding outdoors I use 3s smoothing for example because “instant power readings” are all over the place.
The KICKR is very very smooth in terms of the power it reports. Usually fluctuating by only 1-2W or so. Is it the flywheel ? Is it the electronics inside are doing some smoothing ? Probably a bit of both.
Last night I did a slow and steady ride. The wattage on the kickr was showing 180W @ 95rpm (as I say +- 2W or so). If I flipped over to the stages PM it was around 10W under this. Didn’t record the data streams as right now I’m currently bored of this endless comparison; lets face it, its not going to change anything :)
So I guess your “apples to apples comparison” statement was meant somewhat ironically given that the only shared characteristic of the graphs is that both were self-reported data from the trainers – and that’s more like kiwis and oranges? :-)
Completely agree that such test rides can be tedious; will do some tests my self, given the absence of comparable data.
Anyway, thanks for the information that TR works properly with the Neo; I didn’t notice as I had been using only their iOS app recently and I wasn’t able yet to make that one work with the Neo yet.
Anyone using Campagnolo 11s out there? On mine the 11T cog is not aligned properly like it would be when installing on normal Campagnolo freehub. The tooth in the sqaure box should be where the tooth labeled 11B is.. Is this just the way it is since it a multisys freehub??
Today I have done the new NEO Firmware update in front of tonights Zwift Group Ride… Update went flawless without any Problem!
What I found out is, that the behavior of the Neo did change.
For around 170-180 Watts on a flat I had to gear 39/17 > 39/16 with the old Firmware. With the new on I have to shift to 39/14 > 39/13 to get the same wattage, wich is not that good and realistic as before and compared to a ride outside! Anyone else with the same experience?
@HILKO Tacx Support
Is there a chance to make this better?
Hi, the changes are related to the best wattage output. As you see that people comparing different things with eachother.
Okay – I am a 60 year old who owns a 15 year old Computrainer which in the day was the state of the art indoor trainer. I don’t race anymore, do some fondo style events and local rides. I have Racermate One software and use Zwift and Strava to keep entertained. I try to keep myself in the best shape I can. I do use the Racermate software to compare results once every month in the winter. I check power, Hr, speed and time on a 20km flat TT course to see if I can match previous results. I don’t use a power meter on my road bike as I produce light bulb power at my age. I train by HR and “feel”. Here’s the question – is a Wahoo Kickr or Tacx Neo a complete waste of money for an old CT user? They are tempting but I am beginning to think that I don’t need the “bling” when all I am doing is trying to maintain what fitness I already have.
Hi Jim – kudos to a lifetime cyclist – I think some of the oldest guys in the clubs here are pushing on 90 !!
Sounds to me like you are now in the category of “keen recreational cyclist” rather than someone in out and out training. If power is not important to you then I would suggest looking at products on the market which use the wheel-on design as these are quicker to get the bike on/off and don’t involve having to worry about using a worn chain on an unworn cassette (you will only ever be using the chain and cassette on your bike).
A number of the guys in our club have bought the Tacx Vortex Smart or Bkool trainers. These are the cheapest trainers I know of which deliver the full interactive “smart” experience. The Vortex Smart is the cheaper version of the Bushido Smart and can “only” go upto 950W which doesn’t sound like a limitation for your needs.
Having used Zwift and TrainerRoad for quite some time, I had never ever ridden a virtual ride (ie video of a real life course) and I have to say, the Tacx TTS4 software does this very well with a simple upload to Strava. It will have your friends confused as it looks like you hop around the globe :)
So that would be my recommendation. In the UK a Vortex Smart can be had for £260 whereas the Neo is £1080 – over 4 times as much !!. KICKR is £950 and KICKR Snap £650.
Personally, the biggest selling point for me with the wheel off design is smoothness and a true road feel. The Neo adds lateral play into the mix to make it even more realistic. So if I were you I guess it would boil down to how many hours I was spending on the trainer, what my budget was, and whether I wanted a wheel off or wheel on design. If you’ve spent years on a computrainer then at least you know what wheel-on turbo is like. Why not try a test ride on a wheel-off trainer ?
Thank you Lee for such an informed answer… there’s a lot of us out here like Jim who want an awesome trainer like we hope the Neo will settle into being, but who don’t know if we’re ‘hard core’ enough to justify it!
About wheel slip: is wheel slip a bigger issue on electronic smart trainers with a wheel-on design like Tacx Smarts, Bkool Pro or Wahoo Snap than non-electronic trainers? (I may lean towards the Snap because of the flywheel and 3rd party apps just work…)
I’ve been training on a CycleOps Supermagneto Pro that has progressive magnetic resistance, but is a ‘dumb trainer’. The wheel slip I’ve experienced on it has been infrequent and never interrupted my workout beyond those few pedal strokes. (I suppose I don’t put out mega watts in a sprint then, right?)
Keeping the cassette matched to the chain with a wheel-on designed trainer then might be the selling point, if wheel slip isn’t a bigger factor on an electronic versus non-electronic trainer for those of us who don’t push huge watts. I know ‘rider feel’ also comes into play with a wheel-off design, but I don’t want to confuse the focus with that variable…
Thanks for your time and your thoughts.
Lee: Thanks for the reply. I think that I will stick with my old Computrainer for the present time. I live in a small town and my local shop has a Kickr which I’ve tried briefly. They don’t like Tacx products as they had issues in the past with their products and no longer bring them in.
Wheel slip can occur due to a number of things…
1. Incorrect tension (tightness)
2. Incorrect tyre pressure
3. Tyre choice
4. Grippiness of the turbo (I think every one I’ve seen uses a smooth metal roller, probably to reduce tyre wear/noise, however worth making sure the metal is clean and not oily)
5. Resistance of turbo set very high (consider instead using a bigger gear on the bike and lowering turbo resistance)
6. Big sudden accelerations
Tacx reckon the Bushido is good for 1400 watts, Kickr Snap 1100 watts, presumably both have been tested with a strong rider so I daresay slippage must not be an issue.
Whilst you might think slippage is not an issue on the wheel-off trainer, interestingly I found its possible to “fool” the Neo. If you have low cadence and suddenly stick a big effort through the pedals, it does indeed feel like you’ve spun a rear wheel. The Kickr does not have this trait, at the end of the day you have to spin a big heavy flywheel so its physics.
When I used to have one bike (what??!!) keeping the chain/cassette wear matched was indeed an issue and I had grinding noises and vibration through the pedals whenever I used my Kickr. Luckily (??!!) I snapped the frame on that bike on a dropout, making it unsafe for road use (thats what I told the wife ho ho) but fine for the turbo/rollers so its now a dedicated indoor trainer bike.
If you do serious indoor mileage (I think I’m going to be pushing 200 – 250 miles a week in the run up to Jan) then a dedicated indoor bike with the wheel-off is great. More like a wattbike setup in fact (although I dislike the ride experience/position on those personally).
The challenge Tacx has (especially in the US) is trying to force everything through the distributor from a support standpoint. It just doesn’t work or scale well. It helps that they’ve rolled out direct to consumer support recently (about a year ago), but the lack of phone support isn’t ideal.
We saw Wahoo go down the same route initially (no phone), then eventually they opened up limited phone support. And finally, now they have a regular number to call. From a global units standpoint Tacx far outweighs Wahoo (way bigger in Europe), so I’d have to imagine it’s straight forward for them to open up such a call center if they wanted to improve the support experience.
Einundsiebzig – At least your firmware flashed properly, I know of 4 people including myself that now own a very expensive trainer doorstop… the firmware failed on all of us at about 25% area, and the the trainer is not even recognized anymore.. it comes up as DfuNrf, attempts to flash the firmware again are failed, and wont even start although it says an upgrade is available..
Jim shatford.. I guess it all depends what you want.. I have a computrainer as well.. I train off ergvideo, veloreality, and zwift.. I wanted a trainer I could ride the real grades at and not worry about blowing power supply so I went for the Neo.. well…. as I said above I now own a doorstop, and to top it off, the last cog on my campy 11s will not install in the proper sequence on the multisys hub,so the ramping is wrong, or the freehub is cut wrong… in any event, Ive contacted the distributor, and I am calling tacx first thing tomorrow AM..
I have never used an iPhone, so excuse me if this is an irrelevant question.
How did you navigate to turn the bt on/off? Did you navigate away from the Tacx utility, or just drag the bt on/off into focus?
wow chris. We are checking this asap. Did you on 25% disconnect Bluetooth 1x
You can swipe up a menu bar where the setting is located and buttons giving you the choice to toggle on/off!
Hi Chris, please send us your info to support@tacx.com, so we can compensate you in any. I talked to the dev team about this, and the bootloader is flashed. Indeed not sure if you turned Bluetooth on/off via the slide screen (that is the best option) but when it falshed up like this it can only recoved by boot loader reset. The cause might indeed be the on/off Bluetooth that this was done to early or to late that for some reason it flashed. Tacx will put a new version in the App store today that reset this bootloaded so that the update can proceed. Unfortunate it takes 4 to 5 days before the App store approves the apps normally. More info on this later
Same problem here. Firmware Update got stuck at 25%. I have an open case with tacx support and a 2nd open case for the noise issue. Mine sounds like an old kettle just when the water is about to boil!
Tobias
Hi TK, very sorry about that. That needs to be fixed anyway. We did remove the utility app. If you have experience the reset, please send us an email. The updated Utility app will be put online to fix this problem. Will update it on this website.
I called and have been in contact via email with tacx
Chris
Update on my problem with the noise,
Good news for me as i got a new Neo this morning @ the factory.
I tried a very short session just before i had to go to work and it was unbelievable silent as promised in all the promo’s. The chain wasn’t the problem which i expected, allthough with a new chain it will be even more silent. With a new chain my wife could prolly sleep next to the trainer. Now if i only could convince her to let the neo into the living room ;-)
Tonight i will do a long session on TR to see if everything stays well, i expect that here will be no problems at all.
Extra info on the Neo development, they told me that they are looking to expand the capability for the trainer to work with more cassettes. So not only the campa and shimano they support now.
Thumbs up for the support of Tacx who were willing to help me instantly with my problem.
Hi Marvin,
Can you explain more about the “unbelievable silence” ? My Neo is relatively quite but I do hear some humming / resonance sound once in a while. Can you make a sound recording again?
I can’t honestly say that my Neo is “unbelievable silent”.
Luckily or unluckily mine has developed the same ticking/creaking noises as Lee’s so mine is also going to be replaced by Tacx. I am from the Netherlands but Wassenaar is to far away so I will send it.
Thanks in advance for your asnwer.
It’s like i hear nothing from the trainer. The only thing you hear is de chain, which i also replaced in the meantime. It’s really silent now,
Sound Recording would be great…
Marvin, Also would like to hear how the long ride went and a sound recording. Thanks.
Does someone have more information about this KICKR2 that I hear people talking about quite often ?
It’s just folks talking about something imaginary, as in – the next generation of the KICKR, whenever that’d be. Right now, pretty much all hands on deck at Wahoo are focused on the ELEMNT. And they just released the KICKR SNAP this summer.
Thus the absolute earliest we’d ever see a new KICKR model would be next summer. Nobody releases trainer models after Interbike (Sept) because they’d have missed the season.
The Neo is touted as being quieter, yet DC Rainmaker found only about a 1 db difference in his ‘cave’ compared to the Kickr. Einundsiebzig said, correctly I think, that it is the bike which makes the noise, not the trainer.
The Kickr has a heavy flywheel which the Neo does not. Several have noted that the Kickr gives a more ‘realistic road feel’, possibly because of this, whereas the Neo may give the ‘smoothest drivetrain experience under different loads’. Not sure how to interpret those statements or which is more desirable. Several people, at least, have rushed out, sold their Kickrs, and purchased Neos. I hope they are happy in the longrun and don’t experience buyers remorse. Tacx is having some teething problems with its Neo software, which hopefully for them will be worked out. I must add that I’ve been quite happy with my Kickr for the past year. Although not direct drive, the adjustable belt is quite stable and it is adjustable if need be. Different strokes…….
That’s not exactly what I showed. The top db levels were almost certainly due to clipping in. It’s pretty easy to hear the differences – I don’t think there’s a single person anywhere that has said the KICKR and NEO sound the same.
Unless noise is an absolute primary concern and driver, I do not understand at all why anyone would want to rush to sell their kickr for a neo. That makes no sense to me.
All of this comparison and discussion would surely be the basis of a buying decision BETWEEN a kickr and a neo. Ie some guy starting out and wants to know he bought the best/right product with his hard earned.
I’m lucky in that I don’t have to decide, I can keep both, but frankly I think each is slightly better than the other in certain use scenarios. Right now if I wanted to do a decent, accurate, controlled intervals workout in TrainerRoad I’d choose the kickr. If I wanted to do a TT workout or an accurate FTP test I’d choose the kickr. For all other riding which I’d class more as “recreational” ie Zwift, virtual rides with video, TTS4 virtual reality etc – the Neo.
Similarly I have a set of rollers which I also use as these are good in ways a turbo cannot be.
Ray – I didn’t say they sounded the same, only that your demonstration did not show a big difference. What do you think of the flywheel effect/ benefit?
I’m not sure on the flywheel benefit/effect – I suspect different folks interpret it differently – but I think far more important is actually the apps controlling it.
Meaning, I’d be curious for those that don’t like the effect in one app (i.e. TR), how does it feel in another (i.e. native Tacx App or Veloreality or Zwift). As has already been shown here in this post’s comments – app compatibility items greatly impact things.
As for noise, I’m going to record some new videos (mostly sans-speaking) later today sometime, just for the heck of it.
Thanks Lee – I think you summarized it well.
I fall into more the recreational category. In the end I think I’m just waiting for Ray’s “roundup” – which should be especially more valuable after he spends time with his second model (and all the commentary here for him to leverage when making further assessments)
I’ve been watching the comments the last few days and trying to play the waiting game. My Neo is still making annoying noises, but I’m trying to ignore them for as long as possible. My noises do seem slightly less than others here, probably because I’m not pushing 1000w+. Whilst I see that some people have the luxury of going to the factory / distributer and picking up new unit until they find one that works I’m very much dreading having to return mine. It’s going to mean days off work to be indoors at both collection and delivery and a potential long time without the ability to train (for both myself and the other half). Then I could easily get another one that’s even worse. And all because TACX’s Quality Control couldn’t be bothered to check the units properly. On top of this returning the unit may also cost me a non-trivial amount of hard cash.
Reading the issues with the TACX upgrade utility there’s no way I can use that either. It seems I currently have a chance of bricking the Neo completely and if does work then it will become harder to pedal (more resistance) in Zwift. It’s already hard enough so I certainly don’t fancy making it harder.
Really I’m wishing that there had been somewhere I could have tried the KICKR and Neo together and that perhaps I’d waited a bit longer. Although the lure of “silience” was too much to resist, the spectre of having to return a 20Kg+ unit several times for many days is far worse.
This is my first experience of trainers and my first of TACX.
Just took a call from my LBS. I’d kept them in the loop and they went back to Fisher who are the UK distie.
Fisher are collecting and removing the weld residue. In my case (not sure if this would apply to all customers, but it seems to be Tacx policy) they are happy for me to swap my unit with another at the LBS.
Do you not have a neighbour/relative who could have the Neo at their place so it can be collected without inconvenience?
I did the update just fine. I have a friend who doesn’t own an iphone, he isn’t as technical as most on this thread, he borrowed his partners iphone and managed it just fine.
If Zwift has become harder then its more likely the thing I talked about above – the Neo ends up with you over-delivering on power. Right now I’m not using resistance control in zwift, just using it for speed/cadence/power and its a lovely ride.
I still haven’t used my kickr once even with all of these issues going on. But today for my lunchtime spin I’ll swap the bike back over and see what I think now I’m used to the Neo.
Don’t despair. This is classic “early adopter” syndrome. It will get sorted.
Had you bought the kickr you may well have been following other threads questioning the power output, asking how to get cadence out of the kickr (mine doesn’t, its vague as to why), getting to learn bluetooth and its connection foibles on wahoo applications. The grass is not always greener :)
Hey Andrew,
I could just copy/paste your comment. Same problems (noise) and dilemma (days off training) here – 100%. Anyway, in the EU (I live in Germany) we have 1 year warranty and I think I will just wait until march, before I call my distributer and let the Neo be fixed or swapped.
Morning Lee.
Unfortunately I did not purchase mine from the LBS because Neo’s were rarer than hens teeth. After it arrived it made a noise straight away, I walked into the LBS 2 days later they had just had a delivery. I almost cried.
I have noone else I can give the Neo to for collection. It’s a nightmare scenario and one I was well aware would be the case were I to recieve a dud. I weighed up the pros and cons at the time (with the Mrs) and decided to risk that TACX were only shipping solid units that were well tested and quality controlled. Even DC stated above that issues were likely to be software related.
I gambled wrong, now I have to face the consequences.
Perhaps I would rue not buying the Neo had I purchased the KickR. Who knows. I was pushed into a corner with winter coming (Game of Thrones was right!) and needed a quiet trainer fast.
Still, I will wait until the new software is released before I upgrade. And until a few others have tried it first. I can at least learn 1 lesson ;-) Especially as it won’t fix the noises and it works perfectly fine in Zwift as it is.
Andrew sorry to hear about your experience with the Neo. I’ve only been cycling for five years and I have never seen LBS in my area or throughout my travels in the USA have any Tacx trainers on site. The exchange/return process was one of my main reservations in purchasing a Neo. Ultimately, that was the deciding factor of why I cancelled my Neo preorder and picked up a Kickr this week. As I said in a previous post, I know the Neo will be better than the Kickr. But, I wanted a smart trainer that was plug & play, and the Kickr used along with my Stages power meter has met that need. However, the Kickr is noticeable louder than the KK trainer I was using, even to the point that my wife made a comment about it.
Now I have a bag of mixed feelings because while the Kickr just works and is compatible with so many apps. Part of me still wants a trainer that is quieter than the Kickr and the KK trainer. But the hassle in case something goes wrong with the Tacx Neo, then dealing with the online distributor and the cost of shipping for the exchange and the time it takes to do all that. I have no luck with gambling and I like safe investments, dealing with the noise of the Kickr is the safer bet for me at this time.
I think after 5 years you had a better handle on the situation than myself. I’ve only been cycling a few months this year and this was my first experience of TACX other than reading reviews. The general concensous seemed to be “terrible issues in the past but much better now” and I took that gamble. I now only have myself to blame. Well of course there’s always the people that decided Quality Control was overated at TACX to blame too of course.!!
Quiet was paramount to us and listening to videos (including DC’s) of the KickR running at high speed put me off and pushed me to the TACX route. Had the Neo appeared on the market in June I would never have purchased until the first batch was out there and the reviews posted. But with winter closing in, the temperature dropping, the rain falling, I had to make an expensive decision fast.
Live and learn.
Stupid question guys: when connected to garmin 520; the power and cadence numbers are being shown from my power meter or from neo?
They are all ANT+ devices. You could choose to display either. Or both.
The whole UK distributor giving the ok for the LBS to swap units is interesting.
My Neo makes a hell of a racket – including some clicking after form sprints in TR – in fact post workout when the flywheel is spinning down is a great example, must record the sound.
Looks like speaking to the shop I purchased from and see if they will swap for me. Or am I best getting the uk distro to agree to a swap and THEN phone the place I got it from? not sure.
I think you need to speak to the shop you got it from. The issue is that there are none in stock to swap for right now, so sending back risks a far greater delay. But if it’s got that bad then I guess it’s time.
For the people who asked about the noise of the new tacx neo i got here it is.
This is with the old chain and new unit
link to drive.google.com
This is with new chain and new unit
link to drive.google.com
I had the phone 10cm away from the unit
Okay thx so far, same as mine :-)
Waaay noisier than mine in terms of chain noise. Having said that, when I bought the Neo, I took it as opportunity to change the cassettes, chain *and* front chainrings on my indoor bike. I rode my kickr yesterday for the first time in ages and the drivetrain noise was less than I can remember plus felt smoother as well.
Anyone have (or know someone) an Elite Real Turbo Muin B+ ? If so, how do they like it? Thanks.
updated Tacx Utility App is available in the App Store. It worked for me. Neo is back alive.
FYI – For those wanting another sound recording, here’s quite possibly my most boring YouTube video ever – me sitting on a trainer for 40+ minutes just letting it record the sounds on the NEO. I talk briefly at the 1ish minute marker, then again and 20, 30, and 40 minutes simply so you can hear my voice: link to youtube.com
Note this is the second NEO unit, they had sent this new one over because they wanted to update the firmware and there wasn’t yet a firmware updater available for it.
What the hell, 40+ min. on Zwift without a towel… link to strava.com
You’d must be soaking weat?
Far noisier than mine in terms of the chain / derailleur clutter.
Yeah, I need to clean and tune a bit. Though I think it’s valid to continue to ensure folks are understanding the difference between chain/cassette/shifting noise and that of the trainer (which is very low).
Fair point. I’ve kinda got bored of the whole noise discussion though. Partly because it doesn’t affect me ;-) but also because as you well know, a new/clean well-indexed drivetrain is very quiet. In fact, even a different lube will make a difference here. And I know that most of my acquaintances are nowhere near as anal as me when it comes to cleanliness=godliness.
But in truth its also because in that same room as your trainer and bike you most likely have
You ! breathing away, swearing at sufferfest videos
A fan (which if its like mine is bloody good but has noise)
TV/music/speakers
So it becomes an irrelevance. Last night I rode my kickr whilst the wife and I watched some TV. The kickr whine wasn’t the loudest thing, it was the fan. Plus the kickr noise is behind you and your ears are designed for sound from the front.
Bottom line – if the trainer is working fine, it makes next to no noise.
thanks for that. good video
How does the cadence measurement work? Does it require you to attach something to crank arms?
No. Its quite clever actually. Even on a very smooth pedalling action, there will always be a bigger force applied at the pedals (the downstroke) – by monitoring the power flow and “counting” when the bigger forces occur, you measure cadence. Its pretty darn accurate.
Hi all
The New utility app is online (some already noticed this :)
What to do
1. remove your old Utility app
2. then install the new utility app that is in the App store (version 1.2.14)
3. Go to devices – then select your trainer (or the name it finds)
4. Then go to Update and press UPDATE
When you are asked to turn off bluetooth, slide the bar (see pictures some people already posted here, but use the slide bar of your iphone at the botton to turn BT on or off) and then turn Bluetooth off and wait 3 seconds and then turn it on.
It could be that the app stops at 50%.
Then select Dashboard or wait and then go to update again and you can continue the update (or it is done again). (for people who were resetted).
If you still experience problems let us know or send a mail to support@tacx.com
One comment Please turn off any other devices that are connected via Bluetooth, or disconnect other devices via Bluetooth. Then it will all work correctly. Else the update might “hang” when resetting the Bluetooth.
FWIW, rode a brief comparison between Neo and KICKR with TrainerRoad and power measured by a power meter (PowertapP1). Just one ride each with the trainers I have access to, so no claims of representativeness. No double checks and numerical analysis yet, just impressions from looking at the data:
– Overall, no big differences.
– TR seems to work as good with the Neo as with the KICKR.
– Both are more accurate with power matching than on their own.
– On their own, Neo was less accurate at very low power and up to about 250W but became more accurate at higher power, whereas the KICKR seemed inaccurate by about +10% over whole range (and can be off by a lot at higher power).
– Power matching seemed to have some negative effect on KICKR (less smooth, slower response at very low power), but not so on the Neo.
– Neo with power matching seemed most accurate and smoothest.
Notes:
– Attempted to keep cadence similar and reasonably constant over the whole test. Did not test yet how the trainers each respond to sudden changes in cadence.
– All items had the latest firmware and all programs were tested in newest version.
– TR was run on OSX. Could not make TR iOS app work with Neo.
– Power meter was zero offset once at the beginning. KICKR was spun down before each ride.
– Might write up a deeper analysis later on my blog.
I note your power output is nowhere near as smooth as mine on the KICKR. On a sustained effort ie your initial staggered three peaks, I would get a near flatline.
At one point in the past I stopped getting this flatline and started observing graphs much like yours so I disassembled the optical reader and cleaned it all out plus the black and white sticker on the flywheel.
This may or may not alter your test results.
Comparing your statements to my own testing, I agree that the Kickr has a fundamental accuracy issue. Mine is around 10W-15W overreading compared to my stages PM. However in my opinion, the kickr works much better with TR than the Neo. But then my graphs are smoother and the unit is lightning quick to respond (PC via ANT+ not OSX). I also agree that power matching dumbs down the response on the kickr, which is why I don’t use it.
I think all you have “proved” is that using a different setup and trainers, different results have been observed. What I get isn’t necessarily what you are getting.
Whilst its frustrating not being able to train indoors with power that relates exactly to power observed on the road, I am happy at least that the kickr is consistent with itself and works well with all the applications I use. The Neo seems to be more accurate but my experience is that it does not work well with all applications.
I did a workout on Zwift Island >
Main part was a 2x30min. split on 180W with a 10min. rest at 130W…
Same session was recorded with my garmin edge 1000 and my powermeter…
Both were almost identical and the average difference of the 30min splits was less then 1W… Indeed you also see some spikes around that 180W resistance, but you see that in both, Neo session log and Powermeter session log.
So I really do not understand why you are claiming that it is frustrating not being able to train indoors with power that relates exactly to power observed on the road – reason, just cause it definitely is…
In every crank rotation is a drift of wattage and no human can put a 100% on point wattage in a 360° rotation! So a smooth straight line is not that what you typically get when you are on the road too. And if you expect, that a staight line will make your training or testing better in any way, you might need to understand that it just does not matter, if there are little pikes in between 2, 5 or whatever little Watts… If you do an interval or a test and the average is on point, than this is all what you need…
I train on TrainerRoad. And for me, the Neo is not working correctly with that application. That is my main point right now. Its close, don’t get me wrong, but its not perfect.
Observations about smoothness of lines etc, are just that – observations.
Lee, thanks for your comment. I’m not attempting to disprove any of your data or your impressions. I am just showing a set of comparison data that I (and some others I think) believe is better suited for objective, fact-based comparison.
It might really be the case that the KICKR is smoother than the Neo, and it’s good to hear opinions based on real experiences. But, comparing the power graph reported by KICKR with the one reported by the Neo does not really show anything, because we do not know how each calculates power. Those graphs could be comparable or not, we do not know.
Data taken with the same, dedicated power meter would be comparable, so that’s what I did and what my graphs show. The reason is simply that we can assume that, as the P1 used for the graphs is the same unit, it will have the same sampling characteristic for both measurements (except for spikes and small errors due to temperature changes etc).
As you have commented on the lack of smoothness in my KICKR data, here are the graphs of the KICKR and Neo (without power matching, similar to your data set) but with data from both the trainers (as in your graphs) as well as my P1 (what my last graphs showed).
As you can see, the power reported by my KICKR (red) is about as smooth as your KICKR graph, and my Neo graph (blue) shows kinda similar noisyness to your graph. But comparing those isn’t really objective; it’s somewhat like comparing the number of stars of a restaurant on the Michelin three-star-scale with that of the Yelp six-star-scale (or was it seven?). It’s apples-to-apples in the meaning of comparing stars with stars; in reality it’s more like kiwis-to-oranges (or whatever) because the meaning of the stars is different. (Really sorry, if this sounded offensive to anyone, just couldn’t come up with a better metaphor!) Again, what is comparable here are the yellow graphs of the P1.
Hope this explanation clarifies the issue here to everyone reading this thread.
Thanks for the info, all read/understood :) No problems with the metaphor :)
I guess the fundamental problem here is that in order to do a true comparison, you need to run with all power meters capturing data from a single session, then make comparisons. I think DC uses WASP stuff to do this when using multiple devices of the same type. However in this instance its impossible to measure output from the Neo and KICKR since you can only ride one at a time ;-)
(visions of some tandem style bike with lengthy chain and two trainers lol)
So the best that can be done is
a) Ride on Neo and Alternative PowerMeter
b) Ride on KICKR and Alternative PowerMeter
c) Ensure Alternative PowerMeter is the same in both tests
d) Try as much as possible to ensure test conditions are the same, spindowns, applications and versions, temperature, cadence etc etc
Not easy :)
I generally use a blend of a WASP, and a few concurrent head units.
Ultimately, one cannot directly compare power outputs from two different trainer sessions (unfortunately). There’s just too many nuances there to do so. However, you can compare trainer + power meter ouputs, however again, if only two power meters you can get into a situation of: Which ones right?
The test methodology is extremely important – and is what most people tend to hose up. Everything from recording rates to crank lengths (depending on power meter) to calibrations and warm-up periods if applicable.
However, with trainers it gets trickier – since the apps that you use can and do have a direct impact on many facets. For example, some have had issues with Trainer Road and the NEO. Does one judge the NEO on that, or? Same goes for Zwift or any other app. What I try and do is to separate out and use some native functionality as well (as boring as that may be), such as the default apps that Tacx has to hold various power levels. That helps to specify a baseline to work from.
I’ll be starting to publish data shortly with NEO + 2 or more power meters concurrently, which should help.
Yes, that was a TrainerRoad-specific comparison … or to be more precise an OSX TR specific comparison as I still haven’t been able to control the Neo with their iOS app as I wrote.
I did have a 2nd power meter (Pioneer) running in parallel but the WASP iOS app died … again! … so I had to “synchronize” that data manually using HR pattern, and that’s why it wasn’t included in the original dataset … but it’s pretty damn close to the P1 except for some transmission errors.
Will look forward to that data … and to what combinations you chose for more than 2 power meters.
Takura, what is the offset between your Pioneer SGX-CA500 power readings and the Tacx Training app ? Just curious …
For the sound tests, could you make 15 seconds sound clips with no running commentary? IThe current videos make it hard to find the sound and listen to it.
Ideally, this would be a longer video going something like this: trainer announcement then sound sample, trainer , sound
Something Ike
“tack NEO”, 15 se ond sound clip from start to speed then hold for 5 seconds
“Kicker” , Samestrucutre of sound clip
“Kurt kinetic”, sound
“Another trainer”
….
So if add the Tacx “Upgrade Smart kit I don’t need to get a dongle to run Zwift? I don’t see Clever Training offering the kit .. I hope they do & at the discounted price if buying together . I have been using TTS4 on my Fortius trainer.. which I will be selling
Thanks
FYI the Tacx Antenna does not work with Zwift if you use just the provided drivers that come with TTS4. I have to install Garmin Express which brings in drivers which work with Zwift, even though its a tacx antenna.
Bonkers, but I wiped the PC and reinstalled it from scratch and thats exactly how it is.
Weird, I just plugged it into a PC with no TTS4 (or any TTS), nor Garmin Express (just WebUpdater). No issues (Windows 8.1).
That is indeed odd. My fresh install is Win8.1. However I did not try the antenna with zwift before installing TTS4. Just so we’re talking about the same thing, I’m referring to the tacx antenna T2028, the base station thing on a USB lead, not a USB stick or dongle.
Yup, same one. I only note it because I literally just swapped/moved PC’s around tonight and was happy to find it plugged right in and Zwift worked. :)
Any more news on apps supporting Neo over bluetooth smart on iOS?
Some apps are already there (I think Kinomap). But I’m going to circle with the Tacx folks this week and get full clarity ahead of the 2015 Trainer Recommendations guide this week.
Here’s the recording of my super quiet NEO in action, taken today during a warm up.
link to youtu.be
Mine does exactly sound like this from time to time…
New cassette and new chain!
This rattling is not permanent and if I give the freehub a little gap to roll and then pick up pedaling again, the rattling noise is often gone…
Is this a problem of a broken edco freehub (bearing issue) or is it the claimed noise problem because of metall parts between the magnets?
In contrast to Tacx’s diagnosis from the sound clip, I have NEVER heard a badly indexed setup or worn component make that amount of noise. That noise you have is what I had that night when the trainer got hot: link to youtube.com – I recorded mine from an iphone inside a waterpoof case which it why it doesn’t sound as “bright” as yours, but its definitely the same thing.
And on my setup, its indexed perfectly, brand new cassette/chain/chainrings.
so I cannot agree with tacx diagnosis of that sound, sorry.
Strongly agree Lee. Please see my reply to TACX below. I’ve also had the other half pedal whilst I listened to the Neo from close range. I too have never heard a bike make any noise remotely like this when not attached to a Neo.
My recording was also done an iPhone, but the case being used was very light, hence perhaps why the sound is brighter.
Btw – I’ve not checked to see if the Neo is getting hot, nor do I know how hot is should get.
Yeah I got my wife to stick her ears next to the bike, she said the sound was deffo coming from inside the trainer too.
My LBS have one in stock, but have been unable to confirm with Fisher whether its part of the “initial non-QA’d batch”. It came in a shipment of two and I’ve a friend who took the other one, he has been talking about noises too…..just tricky to work out whether its his indexing/components or whether its the trainer. I don’t know whether to stick with the unit I have now, or swap it out anyway, I suppose worst case scenario is that 2nd trainer is also faulty and I need a third. Luckily my LBS is close :)
Very jealous of that puchase from the LBS. I’m absolutely gutted about this issue. I purchased the Neo on the premise that it was quiet andpaid well over £1000 for this fact. I decided against the tried, tested and cheaper KickR on this basis. Now I have very noisy Neo and face huge hassle / cost returning it, time without a trainer (training pogrammes having to stop) and the fear that the replacement will be just as bad.
Trying not to think about it too much.
Same noise here. And, yeah, sometimes it does make that sound and sometimes not.
One way to circumvent the chain-casette-noise argument could be to just rotate it by hand: link to dropbox.com
Although, of course, one could claim that this is not representative of the noise it would make when driven a chain. ;-)
FWIW, with my Neo, the noise happens not just at one position during the rotation but somewhat randomly at many positions…
Tacx support hasn’t gotten back to me yet over the weekend, so I might write it just here: The noise of my unit developed only over time, it didn’t happen on the first rides even when riding hard, now it is often quiet when I’m sitting, but it gets noisy when I ride standing, so, at this moment I’d suspect a bearing getting loose. And from my video above, it seems to be not a freewheel issue but inside the unit.
Hi Andrew, this also sounds like an new cassette and an old chain. We have heard that sound before. Also send this to support@tacx.com for the correct registration.
Hi guys. This is nothing to do with the Chain, the noise is coming from inside the Neo somewhere.
For reference the Chain is brand new, as is the cassette. The bike was purchased a month ago soley for use indoors on the Neo and has only been ridden for 5 miles outside on a dry sunny day to test everything worked correctly.
Also for reference. This noise does not happen all the time, sometimes you can ride for 30 minutes before it starts, sometimes it’s there from the start, once it was even super quiet for around 45 minutes before the clanking started. If it was the chain you’d get this all the time.
I will send an email as suggested above. I have also emailed the retailer where it was purchased earlier today, but I note that they have no new Neo’s in stock to swap it for and I’m extremely worried it will get swapped for another with the same issue.
Hi Andrew,
Ps i let some other people listen to the sound. if the chain and cassette are the same age it is always good. The sound could come from 2 things , will send you a mail on that
Look forward to the email. As stated, the chain, cassette and in fact the whole bike are brand new. Willing to try any steps I can to sort this out if you have anything to suggest.
If there are steps I can take then you may wish to post them here so that other people can also try to resolve if they have the same issue.
Please note though. I have listened closely whilst someone else pedals and the noise originates from somewhere in the Neo, not the chain. It’s also intermittent, so sometimes it makes the noise, sometimes it doesn’t. By the time I’ve pedalled for an hour it always makes the noise. Once happening it has been known to go away again after a while, then return a while later.
DC. I see that you recieved a new Neo from TACX on the basis that it had a later software version.
Doesn’t it seem more likely that TACX realised your first one might sound like someone had left a spanner in there so shipped you one that they knew didn’t have the issue ?
Ps can you check your email, so we can verify some things. Thanks
Hi.
I don’t really wish to post my email address here, hope you understand. I emailed support@tacx.com as instructed with all my details and a summary of the issue at 11:30am (UK – GMT). Hopefully you should be able to find all the information there. I also made reference to this webpage in the email, so it should be fairly obvious it’s me.
Thanks.
i know :). I already send you a couple or mails back this morning :). So if you can asnwer them im good
rgd
hilko
Ticket#1081566
I haven’t recieved any emails from TACX at either the account I asked for replies to be sent to or my work account I used to send. I have also checked Junk email folders just to be sure.
no worries. Ive send it to the correct mail adres now .
Sorry, missed this question. Nah, the reason for the new one was simply due to some power related tweaks that I saw a few weeks into things that they had a firmware fix for. There simply wasn’t a clean way to get my unit upgraded since the updater wasn’t available yet.
Fwiw, my first unit still sounds just fine – same as my second unit. I don’t know if the Tacx folks pre-tested my unit prior to shipping it to me with an actual human riding it. Sometimes companies do (and it’s obvious), and sometimes not. I had to put on my own cassette, fwiw.
Still no email.
Email received. Thanks also Ray for passing my details over.
I will do the check and reply to the email later this evening.
Happy camper: After a firmware update yesterday my Neo works very well indeed with TR. Great trainer: no noise, no problems.
It makes very little noise and my wife and daughter are not bothered at all when i train in the next room. My gasping for air when doing SufferFest on TR drowns out any noise coming for the Neo :-)
Sorry, to hear about all the problems some people have had, but mine works fine. Just wanted to add that to the impressions of the Neo.
Larss, are you running the beta of TR (the one with the new interface)? Version is 0.1.0.693-beta.
Since TR confirmed they needed to update it to support the Neo.
Or are you using non-beta of TR?
Bear in mind that what one person finds “perfectly fine” might be different to another. If you’ve never ridden a smart trainer, don’t have a kickr to compare to etc then its very possible the current firmware Neo on TR will be seen as OK by many.
I am using TR 2.7.4 and new firmware as of yesterday. I have tried the Kickr and thinks that the only thing that really makes a difference between the Neo and the Kickr is the noise levels.
With the Neo firmware and Neo in ergo mode – the power uptake from say 100 w to 250 w is now done i aprox 5 secs. With the old firmware it took 30 secs. So some improvement there.
5 seconds is still too long though. Ever ridden Sufferfest Rookie ? There are a number of “surges” which last just 5 seconds. If the trainer takes 5 seconds to adjust, it will be reducing the resistance before you’ve even ramped up.
Not saying the KICKR is perfect here either mind you.
If I have some time tomorrow I’ll ride the first 10 minutes on Rookie on both KICKR and Neo, and video the output so you can see in realtime what I’m talking about.
Where did you get 2.7.4 from ? Latest published release is 2.7.2. Perhaps thats the difference, perhaps you have a beta version which includes more optimisations for Neo ?
Ah quick addon…..are you using Mac ? I can see 2.7.4 exists for OSX, but not for PC.
2.7.2 is what I use with a Kickr.
I downloaded the latest TR beta to a machine I don’t use for training.
Has the new interface and is version 0.1.0.693-beta.
Will probably become 3.x
Yes, I am using a Mac.
And yes, 5 secs is not perfect for super short spring efforts, which theres are a lot of in speed training. So Tacx and TR are not home free yet.
However, my knees due appreciate the gradual increase :-)
I suppose you are Norwegian. May I ask you where you bought your Neo? At XXL?
It would be really interesting to see a poll of who has Tacx Neo units that are working perfectly vs noisy vs noisy and with tech integration issues. I’m sure there are quite a few problem units as seen here, but people with problems are WAYYYYYYY more likely to post about them than people without problems whose units are working just fine. It may well be that MOST of the units are just fine, but it’s hard to get a gauge of that on here in this type of setting. Anyone started a poll on a forum yet? Is there one forum we could go to to get the most views?
Potential buyers want to know……..
Hello,
I have The Tacx already and I put new cassette with OLd chain But It is very noise and something are wrong, can someone see The vídeo and help me with your fedeback?
Thanks.
Vídeo:
link to youtu.be
So where is it noisy? I do not hear any strange sound from the NEO…
It is not so silence, Maybe The cassette is not very well Instal. Don’t know, because O can listen The trainer on The room next dor!
All I can hear is your bike chain, drivetrain and the sound of the freehub when you let him go. But this is all like it should be… The gearing/indexing of the chain can be fixed…
Thank you very much
I’m a happy Neo user. No noise issues and the update (I waited for the re-release) of the firmware worked fine. Good performance on Zwift.
I checked with the TrainerRoad guys today and although the firmware update has improved the response times for the Neo they are confident they can improve things through further tuning on their side. They’re still waiting for their unit to arrive.
Interesting comments regarding the upgrade working well with Zwift. I performed the upgrade (after waiting for the 2nd version of the software) but didn’t notice any difference.
However since Saturday I’ve been using the training modes which switch the Neo to ERG or Resistance mode. I haven’t done much free cycling around the island. And I am distracted by the clanging.
What did you notice most ?
I saw and felt no difference in between normal rides on Zwift Island with the new firmware. First I thought I had to use higher gears to get to the same wattage, but that was groupe ride/drafting realted…
This is probably a good thing. My experience with the Neo and Zwift is that it works very well indeed. Free riding, training in ERG and Resistance mode all seem to work very well and be very responsive to me.
Tonight I’m riding Day-2 from the 12 week FTP builder programme and there are several “sprints” in there, so I’ll get some more experience on how that feels too.
I did my day 2 this morning, Andrew.
the 10 second @ (for me) 415w was a pain, your head is saying up the cadence, the trainer is constantly lagging behind you upping the resistance at a cadence that youve just superceded. as a result it was a very domed interval where I would overshoot wildly, then settle in just as the 10 seconds were up. I get the feeling that this is down to my terrible technique more than anything though.
By the end id got it smoother by just holding my natural cadence and just absorbing the increasing resistance while trying to not let your leg speed get bogged down, or overreact and get too fast.
If you read upwards on one of my posts I said that the Neo makes you “over deliver”, which makes the workout significantly harder. The method in which a rider delivers power should not matter to a smart trainer. Guys with big legs can keep a constant cadence and increase the strength whereas guys like myself with feeble legs would indeed increase cadence. Spinning is winning (in my case) :)
An interesting point though and adds more fuel to the fire of “what is good to one person might not be to another”. YMMV !
@Adam. I assume that this is the case on any Trainer using ERG mode ? Fully expecting that this will take some practice.
Thanks for the heads up.
Hi Andrew,
Sorry I wasn’t as clear as I could be. I actually held off using the Neo until the update was available.
I planned to begin my next training block on traineroad so was waiting to update the firmware to allow them to play nicely together. As it happened right when I had an ftp test to do Zwift released workout mode – becuase I hate FTP tests I thought I’d try it on Zwift instead.
So I’m afraid I have no pre-update comparison to make. Just the comment that my experienc on Zwift was positive.
FWIW, I’m coming from a Kickr which I sold to buy the Neo so that I can train when our 8 month old is sleeping – on the noise aspect it’s certainly not silent but it doesn’t disturb the boy so that’s good for me.
Interesting to read numerous guys noting humming, groaning noise when using the Neo. I hooked mine up for the first time a week ago and hopped onto TR hoping for a much quieter session than my wattbike Pro. This was not the case. With a 11-28 on the back and the chain settled into 25 ring the groaning was annoying at 80 cadence. Up the cadence to 100 and it slightly reduced.
Changed gears to 13 cog on the rear cassette and hit the same 80 cadence and the noise was present but not as loud as on the 25 ring. Upped the cadence to 100 and all I could hear was the chain going through the gears and no humming noise at all.
I setup a ticket with Tacx and was asked to check my cassette and chain and to make sure all was indexed. I did this on my winter bike (brand new chain and ultegra cassette) and then indexed on my Shimano Di2 but the same issues remained. I’m now awaiting a repair or replacement.
Another point on power… I also note that the Neo differed by at least 50W on my efforts that I have done on the WB. I regularly use TR and was happy with my FTP work when on the WB but soon as switched to Neo I struggled to keep the training wattage for sessions over 1hr. When I reduced the intensity by 10% they felt the same.
Hoping for a silent Neo on return to continue my investigation !!
So…….today I went back to my LBS and swapped my Neo for a new one. As DC put it, mine sounded like “it had a gumball knocking around in there”.
Got the new one home and did the firmware update then hopped on Zwift.
Whereas my previous unit was very smooth and had no real vibration, just that terrible noise, this unit is not as smooth and has a sawing noise/vibration. Its quite subtle so I suspect trying to get a recording will be difficult. However its a kind of vibration that you feel through your hands on the bars and its akin to running your nails down a blackboard, it makes you tingle and feel eeekish after a bit. I had to keep sitting up and taking my hands off.
I’ll persevere and put some more miles on it to see if it lessens, but I can’t help feel I’ve jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire here.
Conversely, rode my kickr a LOT this week and it was very pleasant indeed going back to something as smooth as silk. If only it didn’t under-read on power lol !
Sorry to hear that Lee. I’m now waiting for a replacement unit to be shipped and hoping that it’s solid. Seems like DC has a good one now, so they do exist !
Is there any way for you to find out if you just recieved another from the “1st batch” ? Can TACX check the Serial Number for you ?
The “1st batch” issue was supposedly weld and gumball knocking :)
this is a different kind of sound. Looking at some of the posts below and clearance I’ve just taken off my garmin speed/cadence sensor as that was quite close between frame and Neo.
It does seem like this is turning into a case that you can get a silent Neo if you’re able to get pigs flying in front of a blue moon whilst unicorns sing songs.
Mine sounds like the “Gumball” issue more than anything else, so I’m hoping it’s a Batch #1 oddity.
Looks like I’ve got a couple of days to round up the pigs, unicorns and arrange a blue moon ! And keep my fingers crossed.
Silly question…..what do mean by “indexing”? Does that mean the chain is sitting on the correct cassette ring? Thanks.
To be thorough we mean that low and high stops are set correctly such that the derailleur cannot move past the smallest/biggest cogs on your cassette, plus (more importantly for noise) that the chain sits squarely on each cog as you move up and down the gears ie its not rubbing against cogs either side, that annoying clicking sound as if you’re halfway to changing gear.
Noticed now that I have only minimum clearance between my seat stay and the trainer, probably around 1mm, and that when the bike is upright. Wasn’t that obvious from other view angles. If I put my weight on the right side of the bike it seems to be touching, so I might actually be hitting the trainer with my frame when I am riding standing. (This is a 2012 Cannondale SuperSix, non-evo.)
Not nice … and this in addition to the knocking seemingly caused by a loose bearing (though that cause is not verified yet) and the occasional humming … It’s nice to have all this technology available now, but sometimes it’s not. ;-)
Interesting. I don’t believe I’ve ever checked, will take a look at that gap this evening. Any chance that it’s not fully seated at the left side ?
Knocking. Loose Bearings. Gumballs. Many different descriptions of what sound like similar issues, potentially with the same cause ? I know that generally only those with issues complain, but from what I’ve seen and people I’ve questioned it’s so far very rare to find anyone that says “I have a Neo and it runs like a dream”.
A friend has just taken delivery of one, so I’m going to be looking for his opinion oover the next week.
Wow, that’s really close. Mine it quite a bit further. I’ll try and grab a photo today with the bike I’ve been using the most.
I think the thing to keep in mind is that like you said, for the most part only people with issues will come and post here. It’s a logical progression of “Hearing noise, search google, find DCR post, make comment”. So even if that’s only 5-7 people out of thousands, it probably looks heavier than it is. That said, there have been a few others that have posted in recent weeks saying it’s silent and happy.
mines also super close. I have a 2012 Cannondale Synapse and im guessing yours has the SAVE stays like mine and are a pretty similar shape.
Friend of mine has a Spezialized 2012 Shiv TT. Does not fit in > bottom braket and chainstay is sitting on the neo… Cannondale Slice TT also does not fit. My Fuji Norcom Straight TT also doesn’t fit in…
Maybe Tacx should make the housing a little bit smaller, not so wide at the possible contact points…
Crap, I have the same bike! Wahoo Kickr looking better every day I guess…..
A piece of paper slid in will stuck if I put my weight on the right side, so, frame and trainer indeed touch during riding though probably not very forceful. Just double checked that the frame was fully seated on the axle. I don’t think this will break my frame and don’t care that much about a bit of paint – still, kind of an unnecessary, avoidable design issue and would hope for some redesign.
To be fair, it just came to my mind that this would depend on frame size too; this is a fairly small frame (44cm), a larger size might just have that bit of wider seat stay triangle to clear. And, given that some frames don’t fit at all, I guess I should consider myself happy that my frame does at least fit in … ? ;-)
But Tacx needs to update the “suitable bikes” tab on their product homepage with a list of frames that do fit, just barely fit, or do not fit at all; not just a list of compatible cassettes.
well, it would be very hard for TACX to create such a list … with all the different frames / bikes outside in the world … and with considering the different frame sizes …
Did I write they needed to make a complete list? It would be very easy to just make public what they know, as they seem to getting these compatibility complaints anyway …
I just put the template in my Cannondale Supersix 5 105 (non-EVO). I bought it new in 2013 and as far as the template is concerned it seems like it will fit. Nowhere near seat stay, but maybe kinda tight at chainstay.
Joe, yes I think they changed the design from 2012 to 2013 to thinner and less curved seat stays as well as flatter, wider chain stays, so that would be the difference.
My 2010 Supersix has the same issues.. and with an 11spd block on there, the edco lockring at one point has about 1/4 mm space between the lockring and frame is is dragging at some point.. luckily I never got rid of my 2005 Pinarello Prince SL… so that is becoming the new trainer bike with a part swap tonite…. ughhhh always something!
Must be really frustrating for those with defective noisy units arranging, then waiting and hoping for one that is silent as touted. Even more frustrating when one can go to YouTube and see Ray riding his perfectly silent unit. Tacx wouldn’t let him get a bad one.
Ray’s Neo and video is the holy grail. It proves that somewhere out there as a fully working unit. It proves that TACX have at least made 1 and it gives hope for all the others (like me) out there that there is another somewhere !
I did an hour on the Neo last night and although it made the noise for 50 minutes it’s clear that it’s still an amazing bit of kit. I’ve partially solved the issue too by using headphone and turning the volume up loud :-)
Finally, it has been mentioned above that freewheeling can solve the issue for a while. I tried this a few times and it does have an effect. But after I start pedalling again the noise is back, usually within 30 seconds (max).
tired of the noise mine makes now, its the sort of noise you can ‘feel’ even with headphones on. Cleaned and lubed every part of my drive train on Monday, no difference, got a friend coming around with a different bike tomorrow to try on there, see if thats the same, if it is ill get some sound recordings and log a ticket with tacx.
Its annoying isn’t it. I’ve had a kickr for over a year so I’m well aware of the importance of indexing, clean drivetrain/lube etc. But its getting to the point where unless every single piece of the equation is perfect you’re going to get a sub-standard ride.
Since I still have my kickr and indoor noise isn’t a concern I’m a fags paper away from just returning the Neo and moving on with life. Not sure how long my browser can keep opening this thread for ;-)
Pardon my ignorance. What’s a “fags paper”?
lol, a typo – should be “fag paper” as in thin cigarette paper, not some reference to someone’s sexuality and reading material.
Adam, I know what you mean about being able to feel the noise with headphones on, the vibration caused is runs through the bike frame right to the bars. You can’t fully block it out. However it does go a long way to helping.
Just been informed that Tacx have only delivered a few tacx units to the distribution centre in the uk.so.my order has for the 5th time been bumped. Now at 11th november.
OK some more information for those with vibration noises. (We need a name for these as GumBall is now the official name for Batch#1 issues – I propose we go with SawBone as thats what it sounds and feels like)
Turning the pedals by hand with a reasonable speed I can hear and feel the vibration. It appeared to be coming from the rear of the device on the right hand side.
I have found that if I apply enough pressure to the metal disc, the sound and vibration goes away.
Therefore the conclusion is that the metal disc is rubbing against the case or something in some way.
As always, a video speaks a thousand words. Turn your speakers up !!
link to youtu.be
thank god. that is EXACTLY the sound I have. I was worried it was my bike doing something screwy
I should add, I found if I let the neo freewheel on a long hill on zwift I can get off and observe the noise continue without me even pedalling
I have to send it to some-one because from my speakers i could not really hear it. Will forward it to some people. Like andrew, can you send us a mail with that link so i can let others hear it (andrew has something else we are checking). Thanks (mail support@tacx.com)
Yes Lee, please send us a mail, we need to register this
Yep, did this immediately after posting it here. You gotta understand, dcrainmaker posts take priority ;-)
Adam doesn’t surprise me the sound continues because the metal disc continues to spin, your cassette doesn’t due to the freehub.
Same sound/vibration here. I feel the vibration through the bike in my hands, and it makes my wooden floor vibrate – the neighbours can ‘enjoy’ hearing me train again.
The noise/vibration is also present without pedaling. Tomorrow I will make a recording without my bike on it, to get a recording without the freewheel noise. (Plug in the Neo without a bike, set the slope to -2% on my iPhone.)
This is my second Neo. My first Neo also made the Gumball noise. I swapped it this morning at my LBS (in the Netherlands). I’ll call them tomorrow, and send Tacx my recording.
Quality control issues at Tacx? Now I assume that only those with issues find this thread and post their complaints. But it appears that several of us have swapped their faulty Neo, and got a faulty Neo in return. Coincidence? I wonder what would happen if those customers who think their Neo is silent, listen to their Neo without their bike on it, with the slope to -2%. In a earlier post, Tacx support stated that there should be no sound in the Neo “if you speed up to -5% for example”.
Since the noise is coming from the metal disk, pure conjecture on my part but I reckon all of our units with the vibration have been disassembled to remove the gumball weld, and something about that process means they are not put back together quite right.
As far as I know, no v1 gumball unit had the vibration.
I got this exact same sound. My girlfriend actually thinks the Neo makes MORE noise then Kickr, just because of this vibration it makes. I also know that my neighbors hear this..What to do Tacx? I live in Norway.
I recieved my Neo yesturday and I have the same sound too. There’s also vibration.
I was not able to make it go away by applying pressure on the metal disc though.
I hope Tacx can solve this soon, because now the system is far from quiet.
Well, according to my LBS (Van Herwerden in the Netherlands), this sound/vibration is normal. I did and do not accept that (Tacx Support mentioned on this site that the Neo should be absolutely quiet), and after some arguing they offered to take the Neo to Tacx tomorrow, to test it and to get Tacx’s opinion. If Tacx says it is not normal, I’ll get a new one (my third). If they agree with van Herwerden and say it is normal (which would mean that the Neo is not meant to be quiet), I will not get a new one. I’ll keep you updated.
Same sound here Lee! I find this sound quite irritating tbh…I need to send my Neo back. What a pain! And I also have that sound Takura described on his post from the 26/10 with the video on dropbox (same rattle when you remove the bike from the Neo and just spin the metal wheel by hand)! Combo, I win!
Exactly the same problem hear. You don’t only hear the vibrating, you can feel it.
link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
And for the “fitting” problem – good luck with discbrakes. I have dismounted mine, cause I thought that it might have caused the vibrating, but it didn’t. Unfortunately the discbrake also scratched the unit, because otherwise I would have just sent it back.
Any chance of replying to the email I sent ?
Same issue here
Well, if there’s anyone in the States that’s brave enough to pre-order a Neo after reading all of these comments, Trisports.com is offering a 20% discount right now through Nov 1. Makes the Neo US $1280, with free shipping.
Good luck.
20% off sure is tempting……
There is a poll on the tacx forum linked below. Please register and vote and let’s get a sense of what the percentages are here……..
link to forum.tacx.com
That “GRR , GRRR, Grrr” sound I have it too and I hate it! it feels it is something wrong with the bike! :(
I’m intrigued. Is your noise still there if you use big ring at front and 11/12/13 cog on rear cassette and hit 95+ cadence.
Mine disappeared …which might indicate the faster the internals spin the smoother/quieter it gets.
It might not be the bike. Try it without the bike: set the slope to -2% or so, and give the metal disc a spin. If you still hear the noise, it’s the Neo.
After reading these comments I have now cancelled my pre-order for the Neo as Tacx, once again, has only managed to send a few units to the UK as they still have not got production issues sorted. I have been waiting for almost two months now with delay after delay and whilst irritating I think I should count my lucky stars given the problems encountered by those that did receive them in the UK. From what I have been told the Neos that arrived in the UK were demo units for stores that should not have been sold to consumers but that hasn’t stopped certain franchises for selling them on from a sufficient allocation. Neos available in the UK now just are the demo units with the next Tacx delivery targetting mid Nov and it would not be a surprise if that slips for the fifth time.
Really wanted a Neo but even waiting a while there is no way to be sure you don’t get a demo minger and the subsequent dramas. thinking a kickr is the way to go, after all better the devil you know.
So I had a sit down and think about this last night. Then emailed my LBS who has agreed to take back my second unit and give me a refund. I’m out boys.
I really wanted it to be the “ultimate indoor trainer” but I think I’ve been a little blinded to the reality because of the new-and-shiny placebo :)
The fact is – I bought new cassette, chain and chainrings for my indoor bike. I also put a new cassette on the kickr. As a result, the kickr is riding as smooth as silk. We’re now splitting hairs, but even my first neo (no vibrations and usually no gumball noise until hot) isn’t as smooth, you can feel the very small undulations on a crank rotation where its going over each of the magnets. Its very slight, very slight indeed and if the neo was OK in other respects it certainly isn’t a reason for not buying it. However the fact remains my kickr is smoother. I wish I’d changed the chainrings ages ago :)
The original biggest appeal to me was the lateral movement. Having ridden both back to back I’ve now realised that I don’t like it. I thought it would be more natural but perhaps I’m too used to the kickr. Certainly I think the Neo will be better for full on power out of the saddle moments and less chance of frame damage. Perhaps if they could tighten up the lateral movement resistance it would be best of both worlds.
With my kickr, I run it lower than the road-wheel-setting. My indoor bike is a supersix evo and its geometry leads itself to tiring arms as I’m constantly “falling forwards” on it – there’s no rearward g-force to compensate indoors. So as a result I have lowered the rear on the kickr and its perfect. With the Neo there is no rear adjustment so I had to use a front riser block. And frankly, it made getting on/off awkward. Specifically to me, I use an overhead projector and the height of the Neo means I get a shadow of my head bottom of the screen :) Thats not the fault of the neo but worth mentioning the kickr is a bit more flexible with regards height and adjustability.
The Neo does not track power or react as fast as the kickr when using TrainerRoad. I daresay this will get fixed eventually but I’m not sure I want to risk the expectation – TrainerRoad is my main training application.
Lastly, I bought the Neo so the wife had something quiet to ride on indoors whilst watching TV. She just likes to dial in a target power on the kickr and ride to that. The wahoo app is excellent for this, whereas the tacx training app is not as friendly. She wants to use the wahoo one which cannot control the Neo. And of course, even with the gremlin sounds removed, there is still a fair bit of drive train noise.
Considering buying her a kickr snap – would certainly make life easier for her and my son to swap bikes on the trainer; the wheel off design is more suited to a guy who has no issues removing a rear wheel and in order to make a wheel off trainer silent you need to know how to reindex quickly. Thats not them.
Sorry guys, I’m out.
@Lee. Sorry to see you go, your feedback through the last few weeks has been very interesting and thorough. I can’t argue with any of your reasons for going back to the KickR.
Personally I watched DC’s videos of KickR noise levels and other videos from other sources. The faster it went the more noise the KickR made. When on the big ring applying pressure the videos make it sound like an air raid siren being steadily wound up. Having now owned a trainer, spent time listening to noises and recording them I have a greater appreciation for the fact these videos can over exaggerate noise levels. But I’m still not sure that a KickR with it’s “air raid siren” type noise would work within our flat, hopefully I don’t end up finding out – lol.
I’ve never used the TACX App to control the trainer. Thanks for reminding me that this exists and that I should have a play with it. Currently I’m using Zwift for everything trainer oriented, doing the odd free ride and trying out their training plans. If they keep developing Zwift it could be all I ever need.
Currently TACX are in direct contact and sending out new equipment to try to resolve my issue. I’m obviously very concerned that the next unit is broken too / has another different issue but definitely willing to give sorting this out a go as the potential goal is a trainer that does everything I need. Since TACX got in touch they have been very good and the fact they are working direct with me (rather than hiding behind a supply chain) is very positive and deserves Kudos.
I would be paranoid that there are no “good” units and that these issues are there all the time, just that some people don’t know any different or don’t like to complain. However Ray has a good one and he knows exactly what to expect and what to look for, he analyses every detail in a depth I couldn’t dream of and has a vast knowledge of this market. So this proves that the dream machines are out there.
Good luck with the KickR mate. Thanks for all the feedback over the last month / two.
The deal with noise…..and this would apply to the Neo (or any controllable resistance trainer) as well as KICKR…
simply find your quietest gear !
For me, I never use the big ring. Always the 36 and about 3/4 down the cassette. You are right in that the noise of the kickr is related to the speed you spin it at, so just don’t spin it fast ;-)
Lee, thanks a lot for all the information you have been sharing.
I am going to try again – swap my second Tacx Neo for a third… However, I must say that I have been hesitating to stay with Tacx. But the Wahoo Kickr I had before simply made too much whining noise and also vibrated too much for my wooden floor.
(Anybody seen reviews yet of the new Elite Real Turbo Muin B+?)
I still don’t understand how you do that. When I’m riding the feel is very similar to the road and I need my big ring nearly all the time, the small ring for the hills. I just couldn’t pedal around Zwift island in the small ring all the time.
I can only imagine that you use ERG mode 100%. But I don’t understand how that works with Zwift.
ERG mode means the trainer will adjust resistance to ensure you deliver the power target requested, regardless of gear or cadence.
SIM mode is what Zwift uses by default. And yes, you would need to use the big ring :)
However, try this. Fire up Zwift, search for controllable trainer and add your Neo. You will see that Zwift automatically adds power and cadence as well as the controllable trainer. Now unselect the controllable trainer.
You are now running with Zwift using the Neo for cadence and as a power meter. Whilst it won’t adjust the resistance for you, you can now sit in a comfortable quiet/smooth gear. If you kept your cadence and effort constant, your power output in zwift will be constant, so your speed will be determined by the incline at any point.
I prefer this mode actually. On the island especially one minute you have very hard resistance, the next the “ground drops away” and you’re scrabbling for the 53/11 :)
Appreciate the idea Lee and see that this will be easier in every way (my knees love it) but to me the whole point of Zwift is to simulate a real bike ride, unless I’m using a training plan. I want to feel the hills and change those gears ;-)
You way is definitely useful and I will do it. But it’s a training excercise, not a Zwift ride to me. I may as well turn the TV off and use the TACX app.
Having read the comments here for the last month or so, I would like to share my video of my new Neo.
as you can see in the video i have the “gumball” issue. It helps to stop pedaling as you can see in the end of the video.
I am starting to be a bit worried because this is still my first unit but if I got it swaped and my second just have the vibration issue then it dosen’t matter.
My concerns are the same as Andrew “Now I have very noisy Neo and face huge hassle / cost returning it, time without a trainer (training pogrammes having to stop) and the fear that the replacement will be just as bad”
link to youtube.com
Welcome to the club Christian. Unfortunately it’s not a very happy club, but it does seem to have a fast growing membership.
You must change it. Ray has a good one, so they are out there and it is possible.
Keep us updated with how you get on.
Hi Christian im helping andrew at the moment and also some other customers with the simular sound. Can you pelase send this also to support@tacx.com We just need to have this registered so we can find the correct solution on this sound (because unfortunate there are some customers having this can we might believe it could be something in the edco that we are fixing). Also for exchange (because we like to identify this) we can have a quicker solution if you report your video to our support desk.
Thank you
We have found something in the edco module that is making the cracking sound. We have had a customer greasing some parts of the Edco module and the sound you experience is GONE. Will put some information on it and will make a PDF to put it here.
Summary of items I had to check last night.
1. There is plenty of space using my bike and the Neo at the rear. I’ve attached a picture to illustrate.
2. The Neo after 2 hours of medium use was quite hot inside and I could feel the hot air coming from the top vent. However no other part of the unit was hot and I expect this is as expected and normal.
When I use the phone there seems to be a habit of posting pictures rotated 90 degrees. You’ll have to rotate the screen ;-)
My brother, who lives not far from me here on the east coast of the US, just got his Neo. He purchased it from R&A cycles in Brooklyn, N.Y. He is thrilled, so far. Like Ray’s, it is totally quiet. No inherent trainer noise, none, least of all the infamous ‘gumball’ noise. All I can hear is the chain moving and that’s pretty quiet because he’s got it zero’d in perfectly and it, the cassette, and chainrings are new. I guess he’s one of the lucky ones. Will see if that persists with time, or some noise does develop as the unit breaks in.
I have had my Kickr for over a year now and am happy with it. It is built like a tank. My first one made an obnoxious grinding noise. I sent a video recording of it to Wahoo Fitness, who said it was definitely not right, and sent me a new one shipped to my house the next day. That one has been working perfectly since.
Thank you Ray. This forum is the most informative source of bike product info online. There is nothing else like it, as far as I know. We are now in, or at least heading into the indoor trainer season. Wahoo Fitness had some initial problems with the Kickr, their initial trainer product, and jumped all over them immediately with great customer service. I didn’t read too many complaints here about the Kickr, after it came out. I don’t know of any problems with the Snap. The Tacx Neo seems to be having a bit of product difficulty. Is it the inherent design or manufacturing problems/quality control. If Tacx were smart, they would diagnose the ‘gumball’ and other internal noise sources and communicate that info to you, Ray, so that you could share it with too many unhappy customers. Social media is very powerful in business. If allowed to continue, customer confidence in the product and company will quickly wane, some of it perhaps irretrievably. The touted forte of the Neo, its quietness, seems to be too unreliably elusive. Was it rushed to market too soon before bugs were worked out. Perhaps. Carpe Diem Tacx.
@Ron – Great to hear that there’s another smooth Neo out there in the wild now.
Let me tell you about my very good experiences with the TACX service … I had one of those noisy NEOs myself. I made a video / soundfile with the noise, contacted the TACX service and sent them the video. They ask the obvious question about new / old chain / cassette combo and when I confirmed that both are brand-new we made an appointment for me to come directly to the Netherlands for a swap. Luckily I have had the time and the opportunity to go there by car living in northern Germany.
It was a very nice welcome yesterday at TACX and the swap took just 5 minutes. Did the first longer ride today and everything is working perfectly. No noise, absolutely quiet, only the sound of chain / cassette which, in my opinion, sound louder anyway riding indoors compared to riding outside. And, of course, it all depends on how well maintained and adjusted the whole drivetrain is.
Bottomline … TACX may have some technical and / or quality problems with the NEO. But I am sure they will work it out soon. And for the service at TACX a huge “thumbs up” from me! Thanks again.
Good to hear another positive resolution and happy Neo owner Andi.
Kudos to TACX support.
Hi All, i just want to explain that the issues we have seen are reported are mostly here and some on our Forum. It makes sence because everybody is following this site (because it is has the most realistic reviews) and it is open for any comments. The sound that Andrew (and 4 other customers have reported, (at this point we do not have more reports to this specific sound, not saying that there are not other customers with this sound) is under investigation and might be something small that causes this sound (we are not sure yet) Therefore it is also important for us (as Andi is mentioning) to report this at our support@tacx.com website so we can actually help customers out the best we can.
I assume Tacx already received back some Neo’s that have these problems. If not: I returned two Neo’s to Van Herwerden (yesterday and today). The first produces a sound that is much like the soundfile Lee and Andrew posted earlier on this thread. (Either the Gumball problem or a problem with the edco thing as I understand from comment #714.) The second produces the sound/vibration as described above by Lee, Adam, myself and a few others. Van Herwerden will bring the second one to Tacx tomorrow. Tacx support: I also emailed you about this. Hope you will find solutions. (I want to continue my training…)
thanks got the email
Hello… so far so good. I have waited nearly 7 weeks for my Neo (in the UK) – it arrived this morning!! Attached bike – very simple and quick setup (Shimano 11speed). Did an hour before work !! Absolutely fine, amazing, quiet, incredible in my humble opinion. It connected to the Garmin 1000, Zwift (PC Win10), the Polar V800 even picked it up perfectly (well done Polar) and Viiiiva displayed HR on all connected devices. This Neo is apparently from the batch that arrived at the UK Tacx distributor (Fisher) this week from the Netherlands – I decided to wait for this new batch. I’ll give it another test tonight and hopefully no issues.
NB – I decided not to update firmware it has 0.3.1 / 96.1.2 / 0.4.2, the latest is 0.3.2 / 0.2.1 / 0.4.2.
This is a good day with lots of positive feedback filtering down.
I did the Software update Martin. It’s very strange in that it keeps asking you to turn BT off on your device every 25%, but it worked ok and afterwards I can’t tell the difference (via Zwift). I think it has some important improvements for TR users though.
That is normal behaviour. This is to install the bootloader in the software. After this (and maybe possible further updates) you dont have to do this anymore. Already explained some changes some chats above
like some of you have reported, mine does also have some sort of humming sound: link to youtube.com
note that the clicking is the hub and not the noise i’m talking about, but rather the rotating/humming sound
Hi Mindz, this is absolute normal. These are the magnets you hear and there is always some sound from the electro magnets driver the neo if you go downhill for example (the same like an electrical bike)
That electric humming (not the clicks) sounds louder than the chain.
Interesting. My first Neo did not make this buzzing sound, and the sound my second one makes is similar to this – and it appears also to be similar to the sound reported by Lee (comment #688). Mindz: do you also feel vibration through the bars of your bike?
Could there be a similar source of the problem, which manifests itself in various levels of sound and vibration? When is it normal and when is it not normal? Why did my first Neo not make this sound?
Hi Guys, been following this thread for awhile now. Had my Neo for a few weeks bought from the same LBS as Lee. I am posting on here to register that mine is also making all sorts of wierd and wonderful noises as well. I will try and get some recordings of them as some of them aren’t what have been reported on here yet. When the resistance goes on above say 250 watts there is a deep droning noise along with the vibration it almost feels like something is out of balance, like when your balancing goes on your car wheels, if that makes sense. Also sometimes when I am up out of my saddle with this higher resistance it creaks and groans like something is about to break.
I am also having a mare trying to index the gears, which is really annoying as it makes identifying these noises hard, is it the indexing or is it the unit. I get the gears sorted on the smaller cogs but they are out in the middle of the cassette or vice vera, today i had the middle ok but once the gears were changed everything went clanky its as though the spindle itself isnt square. I have also found that if i am on the small chan ring there isnt any noise but as soon as i move to the large chain ring things go out, maybe its not the indexing and its the speed that is causing the sound to occur, I dont know its hard to pedal and have my ear by the cassette at the same time. As I am having to make such big adjustments it means i will have to re index again when i put the wheel back on.
As i say I will try and get some recordings of these noises for the record as much as anything else.
Tacx Support,
I’m writing to you through this forum because my question is specifically related to the Neo and I know for a certainty that you are reading this forum. I live in the San Francisco Bay area in California and when I check the Tacx site for a list of dealers, the nearest is 875 kilometers away. So, clearly, my best option if I want a Neo is to order one through an online retailer. However, if it develops problems, I cannot simply jump in the car and return it to my local shop. I certainly don’t want to pay for shipping a defective unit back to the online retailer or to the nearest dealer. Do I have the assurance of Tacx that they will replace a defective unit free of charge, by mail, if needed?
Thank you very much.
I have already posted this video link as an answer of a previous comment, but just realized, it is so far up the comment list already, that I’m posting it again, just to show, there are others with the same problem.
It is concerns the grinding sound/vibration.
p.s. intensity slightly changes with cadence
link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
Yes, mine is the same which has been returned.
What you didn’t show was increase in cadence. Big ring and one of the smallest sprockets to drive the internals faster. At about 90 cadence the vibration stopped for me but soon as I slowed the cadence (ie spinning bits inside the Neo) the groaning came back.
Yes Jase, exactly what I obeserve.
….it concerns…..
I’m posting to redress the balance a bit with all the talk of noise, and to share my experience.
After swapping a chain which turned out to be pretty stretched, and putting an old SRAM force 10s cassette on, my Neo is essentially silent bar a bit of whirring you’d expect from spinning bits. All noise was chain-line related. A 10s ultegra cassette I tried ridiculously noisy, maybe it was well worn, but I don’t think it’s had that much use.
I’ve also tried my good bike with da9000 and a SRAM XG1190 11s cassette, that’s also silent.
My fan is far noisier, ironically noise isn’t really a concern for me but it would annoy me.
I’ve done a comparison to a P2MAX power meter and it’s pretty close/close enough when averaged, but what does erk me is that the cadence sensing algorithm is all over the place. My Garmin using a crank sensor reads solidly, but the Neo will jump around -+5 rpm of what the Garmin is reading.
The Neo power reading is a bit erratic, I’m not sure how Neo determines power but if (as you’d expect) it’s a function of the cadence it reads than that would be why; especially if the Neo then adjusts the resistance based on these inaccurate power readings.
I haven’t updated the firmware yet due to being IOS only, so I’ll have to find a generous apple-ite to lend me their iPad. It maybe that some of these cadence/power issues are addressed in the new firmware.
I’ll update once I’ve done the update.
Jezz…If you don’t mind, where do you live and when did you get your Neo? Thank you.
UK, though I got it from bike24/Germany, it was shipped ~2 weeks ago.
Noticed too that cadence seems less reliable than e.g. on the KICKR.
On the other hand, by the laws of physics, cadence is needed for calculating power only for pedal/crank/spider-based power meters. As the Neo is (or includes) essentially a hub-based power meter, they will wither use strain gauges for torque/force and “wheel” rotation or – I assume – compute from the electricity generated by the magnets.
Thats a misleading post. The KICKR does not give you cadence !!
For what its worth, I had no issues with the cadence output on the Neo under “normal training” scenarios. It only dropped out if I was riding a VR/film and did a ridiculously soft pedal or something. When under load, I found the cadence quite accurate.
Given that the Neo is a tight fit on many bikes (and won’t fit on others!!), squeezing in a traditional speed/cadence sensor may not be possible. So having cadence output by the Neo is a big win I think.
Or, do what Wahoo do (on the KICKR 11sp kit) – use a crank (or shoe!!) based small accelerometer. No issues with trainers or bike fitments then :)
Oops, sorry, yes, you are right that the KICKR doesn’t give cadence, thanks for pointing out.
Still, the dedicated cadence sensors and power meters that output cadence that I have experienced have been always within I’d guess 1 to 2 rpm. The Neo is often not in that range, whether that is significant will depend on the user. But well, my post was more about the power calculation anyway. ;-)
Do Tacx trainers generally output cadence or is it just the Neo? Wondering whether they are using cadence for the virtual flywheel?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the new Kickr also gives cadence without any other sensors?!
You are wrong. The devil is in the detail.
If you look at the shop you’ll see they sell a 10sp KICKR (no cadence) and an 11sp KICKR (with cadence).
What is this mysterious 11sp cassette cadence sensor you may ask ;-) ??
Well, no its just that they bundle their Wahoo RPM sensor in the 11sp box.
link to uk.wahoofitness.com
Look at the features panel, specifically the “Measures Speed, Distance, Power and Cadence”:
“Get all your vital cycling metrics on your indoor ride. Cadence only available when paired with a Wahoo RPM. 11 speed model includes an RPM and the 10 speed model does not.”
Fwiw, to a question somewhere in there on other Tacx trainers providing cadence – yes, they do an estimate (i.e. Vortex, Satori, Bushido, Genius, etc…). It’s not foolproof, but for 98% of riding situations it works well (pretty similar to PowerTap hub cadence).
Here is a view of the dirvetrain side of the Neo after removing the Freehub.
Don’t try this by yourself! You need a special puller to get the disc detached from the Neo…
In unrelated news, Einundsiebzig’s NEO is now silent. Albeit not spinning anymore, but silent nonetheless.
In restless dreams I rode alone
the narrow richmond streets of cobblestone,
and no one dared, disturb the sound of silence…
link to youtube.com
Out of interest
a) Did you remove this yourself ?
b) Why has it been disassembled ? Did you have a noise/vibration issue which has been cured ?
A) These pictures Do not show my neo
B) These Arme taken out of a Tacx Dealer Service and Maintainance Video
This blog must be a manufacturer’s nightmare!
keep up the good work!
This blog is not the manufacturer’s nightmare! NEO is the manufacurer’s and customer’s nightmare!
So…..
Do i cancel my pre-order???
That’s the $1280 question indeed…………
Hi , not it is not. Better to be open en discuss about it then hide.
Even though I’m currently not happy with my Neo, I appreciate the Tacx guys replying on this forum additionally to dealing per email with the affected customers.
Hey I have been reading and following from the sidelines about the comments/ experiences with the Tacx Neo but I now only see comments up to October 13th and nothing later? I was reading the comments earlier today and at that time everything was up to date?? Thanks for any insight.
Nervermind I now see them-
We have found the issue related to the cracking sound. It is not in the neo but in the Edco module ring that is on the axle. I’ll but a solution on it at the end of the day (will make a short PDF)
But not the issue with the vibration?
Good news! Does it mean that at least one of the two Neo’s that I returned can be fixed? But which one?
Which noise do you mean? The noise of which Christian Bergman posted a soundfile earlier? (Similar to the noise my first Neo makes.) Or the noise Lee posted a soundfile of? (Similar to the noise of my second Neo?)
Hi Igor, that was a different sound i believe but did not see the units yet
Hi Igor, yes the sound of Christian Bergman : link to youtube.com
This sound is the Edco ring
Courageous move, but it sounds like the right decision. Wish you all the luck. Greetings from Germany.
Sorry comment on the wrong topic – omg
Tacx: When can you say something about the other issue? As heard on Lee’s posting?
On Lee one we need to come back. Some-one is checking that to see why that is
I saw a post (#681) saying that a Shiv TT won’t fit on the Neo. Is that true? I ride a size large 2013 Shiv TT. If that frame and others won’t fit is Tacx planning a fix? That issue would keep me from getting a Neo. I need to be able to fit my race bikes on my trainer.
Hi Toby, yes this is an important question, because NOT all bikes will fit on it
link to tacx.com
Text:
I addition, the NEO is placed in between your rear fork. Unfortunately, the NEO doesn’t fit some bikes with an integrated rear brake. To find out if the NEO fits in between the rear fork of your bike, you can use one of the stencils below.
link to wwwstatic3.tacx.nl
link to wwwstatic3.tacx.nl
Most of the time-trial bikes have special smaller frames that will not fit. Because there are so many different sizes these adapters have been made so that our customers can check it.
Thanks for showing me the templates Tacx. Very disappointed to confirm that the Shiv TT will NOT fit on the Neo. The template bumps the chain stays and the seat stays. I thought I’d found my new trainer. Back to my 10 year old Fortius.
A Friend of mine raised the front wheel by a little peace of rubber in 4-5cm height. With that he is able to ride his Shiv in the Neo… Unfortunately now he is always climbing up to 5%… :-) I think a little redesign on the outer plastik shell would make much more bikes (TT) fit in the Neo… I could ask him for a photo if you would like to…
Hi All, so on that “cracking” sound of the Neo, we have had 2 customers using attached solution and all was very fluent and no sound. We are still doing some checks on it but it this seems to be the fix. link to tacxdata.com
Thanks for that. Glad one of the noises is figured out, but, to be clear for my simple brain, this isn’t the only noise issue right? The gumball noise people are talking about is still real? Are new units being tested for this before leaving the factory? Or are you guys still shipping units as they are made? I’d like to pre order from somewhere with a 20% off code that expires in a few days but only if I can be assured you will not be sending out any more units until this issue has been taken care of and me risk getting a lemon. Otherwise, I might have to go with Kickr, unfortunately, because I hate the whirring sound their unit makes as well. Thanks for being so responsive!
I believe this fix is for the “gumball” sound. So as far as I know there are 3 issues/sounds
1. Weld inside the drum leading to a metallic sound. I don’t believe anyone has really reported this though, the weld was originally offered up as the solution for the next sound……which is…….
2. ….the “gumball” sound, which turns out to be a problem with the EDCO hub. That makes more sense to me because I never believed 0.5mm pieces of weld would make that cracking sound. Last up…..
3. …..the brrrr brrrr brrrr sound which also vibrates right through the frame. No-one is offering up a reason for this right now I think.
My LBS is returning all stock to the distributor with a “Don’t send any more until they are known to be fine” remit :)
Hi Joe, i can only say that we have had people with this sound and it was solved with this solution. We did not get so much but 2 of them this was the solution, and Andrew is also checking something on this. The other sound is still checked. Looking to deliveries (the demand is so high) that pre-ordering can also take some time. We had some comments on that. It just depends on how fast you need one.
the number 3 Sound are friking me out! I´m start to be MAD with it. It feels the bike have some probem but it is the NEO problema. GRRRR GRRRR GRRRR , rBrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Sorry, but this is not silence, this is noise! :(
On the sound file Tacx posted with the fix for the “gumball” sound you also can hear a whistle like sound (similar to an old kettle that is close to boiling) is that the sound that is related to the metallic sound caused by the weld residue?
You can hear it cleary at around 11 secs and again at around 18 secs.
link to tacxdata.com
My Neo also whistles at a certain speed with a certain cadence. I think it is nothing to worry about. As far as I understood from my conversations with Tacx, it is simply air being pushed through somewhere at the spinning disc.
So this ‘fix’ offered is to correct one of several abnormal sounds coming from many, but not all, of recently manufactured Neo trainers. Was this lubricant supposed to have been applied to the Edco hub at their factory or by Tacx during assembly of the Neo? Is one to assume that quiet Neo’s have the necessary lubricant already in place? Over years of reasonable use, will this Edco hub need maintenance with re-application of lubricant? I for one, had not heard of this Edco hub before the firestorm of this fiasco, having used Shimano hubs for many years.
Tacx – so far, your explanations and advise are as skimpy as the manual that came with the Neo and are woefully inadequate.
Hi Ron, how often have you used your Neo?
If you ride it only a couple of times over winter, then you don’t need to worry, thinkinside no weather condtions will wash out the grease…
I own mine now since 9 weeks and I already did 59 rides on it without any problem…
due to my new NEO I don’t have any noise anymore, thankfully. But of course I “had to” check this proposal out by myself.
And what I noticed was that the 5mm bolt was not been tightened very strongly. I could loosen it very easily … I don’t checked it with a torque wrench, of course but I had a look at the Shimano manuals for the required tightening torque for freehub bodies and it is 45 – 50 n-m.
I don’t know the value for EDCO but maybe this might be source of some noises that occurs?
Ok, I must say this is more a question of “feeling” but maybe worth a second look?
And speaking of EDCO … EDCO is in general a company with high quality products when it comes to hubs, not any worse as Shimano for example.
I don’t know if their is an official limit… but I would not want to put 45 – 50 nm on a 5mm hex. Especially considering that the skewer, when tightened, will be adding extra pressure on this area.
Question for Neo owners using Zwift. First a little background.
A few days ago a friend joined Zwift and attached his TACX Blue Motion “dumb” trainer. He did a few laps around Watopia and his best lap was 19:17, this compared to my best of 16:31 and was we both thought a fairly accurate representation of performance on the road.
Then we drilled down a bit and noticed that he went up the main hill (1 mile after the start) in 2:30. My best is around 3:15. 45 seconds slower ! As I’d be reasonably quicker up any hill in real life this seemed odd but I just put this behind me and forgot about it until last night. I honestly thought my Neo was obviously right and he’d set something up wrong – lol.
Yesterday evening however my club had a Zwift event with many people having a go at climbing that first hill on Watopia. This time using the Wahoo KickR. And this time those I usually directly ride with were recording 2:20 – 2:35 (unfortunately I wasn’t there for a direct comparison). This again is massively faster than I seem capable of on the Neo.
Is there a chance I’ve somehow set the Neo or Zwift up incorrectly ? I’ve left all the settings like Trainer Resistance alone. At the first screen at the top left I select the “Power” option from the 2 available.
I’ve checked my Strava and I know I am working pretty hard, know I can definitely go faster, but 30% faster…. Pretty unlikely.
Any thoughts ?
Firstly I’d discount your mate’s Blue Motion ride. Waaaay too many variables.
Assuming the KICKR was reasonably accurate, the only way you will ever know whats going on is to pull their data from Strava (assuming they uploaded it), go to analysis and focus on just the hill climb, and make a note of their average power.
Then do the same for yourself.
The power will be recorded correctly regardless of what settings or personal details have been entered into Zwift. Its the only true absolute.
If you have a club friend of similar build/weight and you think you are quicker up the hills in real life, then it stands to reason your power figure should be higher. Its power to weight ratio.
Unfortunately I don’t think anything was recorded in Strava. But they were doing one off “sprints” up the climb, so I think I need to have a go at this myself. See what I can do in 150 seconds if I aren’t considering riding another 2/3 laps afterwards….
Level playing field.
Question, did you adjust the weight in the riders profile after changing from rider to rider doing the Zwift climb? If not, this migth be the answer! As Lee said, power/weight ratio!
Indeed they did. It was very well organised and each rider was weighed before getting on the bikes.
Good news. Tacx fixed my first Neo this morning (Edco problem, see for example the soundfile by Christian Bergman). Trained for 45 mins this evening, and it’s quiet! The coming days I’ll be doing some more extensive interval training – I’ll let you know whether it stays quiet. So far, excellent service from Tacx.
No whistle sound also anymore? Because i will just grease the edco ring also if that’s the solution. Pretty simple action and good to know for future maintenance
No, as far as I understand, the whistle sound is nothing to worry about and caused by air being pushed through somewhere at the spinning disc. (An explanation that makes sense, as it only manifests itself at certain speed/cadences.)
Weekend Update
I received the new Neo yesterday and also had a fix to try on the Old one (with the Gumball issue).
Firstly I followed the instructions from TACX to replace the EDCO Hub. I’m not a bike engineer, but the instructions were very basic and I struggled, I wasn’t even sure if I should be greasing parts myself (as shown in pictures) but if that’s the case I wasn’t supplied any grease. Eventually I worked out what needed to be done and the hub was off. Unfortunately the new hub would not go on with the 2 parts in place that were there before. Very odd. So I installed it with 1 of the 2 which I only tried because it fitted perfectly.
So at the end of the job I had one of these left over.
Unfortunately when all fully reassembled, the freewheel no longer works. I had a good look over everything and apart from the spare part I’ve no idea what to do differently. And I can’t work out how that part fitted in or what it had to do with the freewheel. Potentially it’s a faulty hub, most likely it’s me not quite understanding the gaps in the instructions.
SO NEO 1 is now useless and unusable.
Onto NEO 2.
Cassette off…. Cassette on….. Changed gear a few times. Horrendous BONESAWING vibration through the entire Neo / Bike Frame / Me.
Before the issue was a loud noise, but at least the Neo was useable. This Bonesawing makes the bike unusable straight away. You just can’t ride the bike at all in the lower gears with the big ring. I got the Mrs to test too and she said the same thing.
So…. 1 morning wasted. Covered in grease. 2 Neo’s. Neither work. No way to train at all.
(Also having trouble posting this – perhaps due to image links – will try with them taken out)
I did exactly the same yesterday evening in front of my evening ride, even so I did not have this cracking sounds. Very sorry for you that you had so much problems, but I did all the maintenance in 10 Minutes without having any problem.
I do understand you right? You honestly demounted the freehub and mounted it together with one ring left over and wonder that your trainer is not working anymore?
You had two of this black rings? The one in the pic above belongs to the axis and you have to put him into the backend of the Edco Hub. You did that?
By back end, do you mean top ?
I was fed up this morning so may have another go with the old Neo in the morning. The new Neo is seriously faulty though and the Bonesawing issue is far worse than some clanking.
If i write back end, I mean back end. The rear part of the Edco Hub (the part you put into the sprocket of the trainer), this is where the black ring supposed to be…
Hub not going in with both spacers in place
Ring over that would not fit anywhere.
Hmmm … I don’t fully understand your problem … just follow the instruction from Tacx to grease the ring is very simple. You remove the freehub body, pull the ring from the axle, put on some greasy (which you, obviously don’t have), put the ring back on the axle and put the freehub body back again. It will not fit at first attempt so you must rotate it slightly to get the paws into place. Don’t remove any paws or springs or whatever from the system or add any spacers. Then it should work again without problems. Maybe you can get a little bit of grease from your local bike shop? Have another look at it and try it again.
That ring goes on before the freehub.
I can very much imagine no reasonable soul (well, almost) is reacting on this guy’s post. 3 simple instructions………..
Unlikely to be a faulty hub mate as the ratchet/pawl system is pretty basic. Although easy to get a pawl out of shape. If you’re feeling brave why not just take the edco from the new sawbone model and stick it on your older gumball model (lol)
conversely, ordered a KICKR snap for the wife and lad yesterday. Arrived today, out of the box, bike on, firmware updated and ready to rock.
I think that wheel off trainers really sort someone who
a) has a dedicated indoor trainer bike (me)
b) has the patience/knowledge on how to reindex his cassette every time a swap is made…
c) or…just doesn’t ride at all outside, thus removing the need to swap and reindex.
Not sure what the point is in relation to the issue there Lee. However I’m using the Neo with a brand new bike that’s dedicated to the Neo.
Received my Neo yesterday (UK). Set it up this morning. First impressions below.
Setup: I have zero experience with the mechanical side of bikes and generally either get the LBS to do things or just have a go and hope what I try works. This was the latter. I didn’t find it super difficult to put the cassette on but it was a bit annoying and fiddly. Took about 30min but some of that was me faffing. If you know what you are doing then its a very quick job as there isn’t that much to do.
Ride: I’ve only been on it for 30min so experience is limited. Will have a longer ride tomorrow. Initial impression is that it’s noisier than I thought it would be. Theres a low level humming that comes from the unit which does get louder the harder you peddle. It’s quieter than a wheel on trainer but not as quiet as I was led to believe. It will be interesting to see if I get any complaints from neighbours. I really hope I don’t get any complaints as I’m pinning my hopes for winter training on the neo.
The ride itself was ok. I honestly need to spend more time on it. I found it took about a second or two to adjust to changes in resistance. I didn’t find it very realistic truth be told. It promises road feel but it feels like pushing through air to me. I may change my mind on it though as I use it more.
Not sure if I like the rocking side to side. Possibly one of those things you need to get used to.
Will hook it up to Zwift and TR tomorrow and see how it goes. I also need to do the firmware update. Will add more impressions to this thread as I go.
Well, I couldn’t do it. With all these unknowns, I had to order a Kickr. I’m out guys. If the downstairs neighbors complain due to noise, I’ll pick up a Neo in the future once the kinks get worked out. Good luck everyone!
Ray– any idea when your next set of trainer recs are coming out for the 2015/2016 guide? I saw you say you were just waiting on the mid-level recs since one unit hadn’t arrived yet. Have you decided on who wins as to Kickr vs Neo yet for this year? What are you going to be recommending for the high price range?
Thanks!!!
Probably a wise choice. Certainly all of these mechanical issues will get sorted. Eventually. But look at the aggro Andrew has had in terms of just being around for collection/delivery and swapping one set of issues for another.
The only thing which is an unknown right now is whether resistance changes and smoothness will ever be as good in TrainerRoad as it is on the KICKR. The guys at TrainerRoad told me that the big heavy flywheel on the KICKR accounts for a *lot*.
If the mechanicals get sorted and the TrainerRoad improved then its going to be a very good trainer indeed. But then again it is considerably more expensive than a KICKR (every now and then Wiggle do 17% discounts and the KICKR can be had in the UK for around £740)
I don’t forsee a direct winner between the KICKR and the NEO. The reason is that there’s such significant overlap, but also a key difference (noise, price depending on region) that it’s going to be a bit of a ‘buyers decision’ between those two at the top.
In some ways the KICKR will be the default (primarily due to cheaper price in most places, and currently better app compat), but that others will want to spend more for lesser noise reasons.
Everyone…don’t overlook the Elite Real Turbo Muin B+, which I’m sure will also be in the high-end category. If the connectivity of the unit pans out vis-a-vis all the popular 3p apps, then this will be a real competitor to the Kickr. It has the benefit of the flywheel, plus the added realism provided by fluid technology.
Although, as I live in the States, I’m as fearful of warranty/tech support from Elite as I am from Tacx.
+1 on high hopes for Ray’s observations and musings on the Elite Real Turbo Muin B+. I’ve been ready to pre order (about a dozen times!) on the Neo, but have been holding back till I see the winter trainer post. At this point it looks like it’s between the Kickr and the Elite for me this winter. Really wanted the Neo to be it though…
Is that new elite going to be in the new DC trainer review?
Yes.
I’m going to spend another hour / 3 with the old trainer tomorrow and see if I can get it back working with some time, knowledge from today and one of the two hubs.
Fun way to spend a weekend. At least Bond was good this afternoon. Cheered me up a bit.
Did anyone have a chance to compare pedal stroke smoothness of Neo and Elite Real Turbo Muin B+ 2016 ? I mean how it ‘feels’. Neo has 125kg *virtual* flywheel, Real Turbo Muin has 7kg *real* flywheel rotating in silicone oil. I had Elite Qubo Power Fluid before, it was really smooth. Nice. Now I have Vortex Smart TDF and does not like its pedal stroke at all, it’s unnatural and not smooth. If Neo is more like Vortex Smart than fluid in this question then I’d definitely purchase Real Turbo Muin. Surely if it works correctly with TrainerRoad and Zwift ;)
Difficult choice when it’s impossible to test this ‘feel’ of pedal stroke before placing my order… ;)
I couldn’t wait for morning. Back on a buzz from Bond and knowing I wouldn’t sleep until I’d tried to sort this out. So back out the old Neo and here we go.
Firstly I believe that the 2 plastic rings is a red herring and that one came from the new EDCO hub and one from the old, Whichever way you look at it (and I did for 20 minutes) only 1 will fit inside.
With this in mind I tried BOTH EDCO Hubs (old and the new) only to find that the newly supplied one does not fit the old Neo. It looks identical in every way, however when you tighten it up the freewheel will not spin. If you put the old one back on and tighten it up the freewheel works fine. So basically I was doing things right previously and had spent most of my morning trying to get a square peg into a round hole.
So I’ve put the old Neo back together and it works as before with the clanging noise. In fact it seems to now make a small rubbing noise too from somewhere.
The “New Neo” is simply put on one side. The Bonesawing sensation described previously is simply too terrible to try again.
No idea what happens next. I’d still love to have a Neo that worked and I appreciate everything that TACX are doing to try to sort this out, but even they must be getting worn out now.
Good morning Andrew,
hope you could sleep, after you have solved the mystery :) . My neo is also making the bonesaw-noise (video to be found here somewhere) and I got an email from Tacx, telling me that it has to be changed. As I’m currently abroad, I will only have the chance to return it around the middle of the month and I’m hoping that I’ll get a fine unit in exchange (and hopefully without a lot of delay). I keep my hopes up, especially after I’ve seen a video dealing with Zwift yesterday, where I was remembered of the whiningly sound the Kickr does.(which I liked a lot, if it wasn’t for this sound)
Check at 1:40
link to youtube.com
Just greased the free hub and can happily say my noise is gone … and the free wheel is also much less noisy than it was, too. (From how it’s constructed this seems to be a Tacx issue and not an Edco issue.)
To my ears my Neo is now by far less noisy than my KICKR (which I admittedly rode with the larger chainring because the weight of their flywheel just wasn’t enough for me to produce enough inertia and a nice enough feeling on the smaller ring),
and according to my evaluation it’s also more responsive and smoother with TR (although only with OS X and not in iOS),
so I have absolutely no reason to go back to the KICKR at this moment …. except that the seat stays of my training bike hit the Neo … :-)
Concerning Elite Real Turbo Muin … I had the non-real, dumb Turbo Muin before the KICKR, and that was in some aspects a nightmare, much too progressive and changing power characteristics which made finding the right gear for a specific target power difficult, deadly smooth feeling that felt more like walking through mud than riding on the road, and noise of the fluid that would not disturb the neighbors but myself, so, clearly not wanting to go back to Elite either, even though the first issue should of course be solved in their smart version.
Always interesting to hear from others and their perspectives; I only ride the KICKR in the small ring as its the smoothest gear combination. No complaints as regards inertia. And of course, this makes it a quieter experience for me.
As for the Elite trainer……I was looking at their RealAxiom B+ this morning. Almost in pure desperation.
I bought a KICKR Snap for the wife/son to use and this is massively inaccurate in power. The Snap was set to 150W yet I was having to do 220W to achieve this. This would make riding Zwift a nightmare as the trainer would absolutely pile on the resistance/effort going up hills.
Why can no-one make a trainer that just WORKS ??!!! So chances are I could try an Elite and just find a whole load of faults with that too.
Lee, Takura – thanks for your comments about Elite Muin! It’s obvious that this unit also has his own cons. By the way, I found one right on the promo video: link to youtube.com
1:26, see how awfully magnetic “micro variation” is constructed! It’s a magnet moving on a thread, some kind of “screw-gear”. So it definitely can’t change resistance fast enough, from 0% to, say, 8%. Magnet should move to the correct place and it will take time, I guess 10-20-30sec.
Lee, I deeply understand your words “Why can no-one make a trainer that just WORKS”, I feel the same. All smart trainers now are far away from perfection. So now [my] choice is only among “less evil” variants ;(
Yesterday I was looking at Wahoo Snap thinking maybe it’s an appropriate compromise. Today I’ve read your comment and understood I was wrong ;) Big thanks for the info!
How do you think Tacx Genius Smart is better than Vortex Smart in question of smooth pedal stroke? Or they are similar?
There are trainer that are working even better then a kickr or a tacx Neo…
I would spend all my time on my Cyclus2 if it would be not so loud like the kickr…
link to cyclus2.com
That is why I love my new Neo so much…
My curiosity led me to explore the Cyclus 2. Yikes!!! – 8300 Euros list price……and as loud as the Kickr. For that price it should be totally silent and maybe even invisible. Lifestyles of the rich and famous……….
What you get with the Cyclus2 is a calibrated device wich measures wattage in a range of 1% accuracy. So you cannot compare this to any other trainer out there.
If you are going to have repeatable tests wich are on point, there is no other trainer out there where you can put on your own bike. And yes, Cyclus2 is loud, not as loud as the Kickr, but only a little bit under his noise, so far away from silent.
And 8300€ seems to be a lot of money, but if you are training athletes (triathletes and cyclists) and do over 100+ FTP tests in a year, wich they pay for, accuracy is for what you go… And by the way for my training at home, I love my Neo and for that it is all I need….
Its a different tool for a different job. There is also the choice of The Wattbike, a UK designed, British Cycling/UCI used, accurate, smooth, robust (they have them in consumer public gyms over here). £2250 so a “bargain” compared to that Cyclus2. They give you all the cycling dynamics you could need.
However they are also
a) Heavy and difficult to store
b) Whilst adjustable etc never going to be the same as your road/TT bike
c) Not electronically resistance controlled
d) Uses a mixture of air resistance and magnetic. I found it “a little odd”
e) Noisy
Fantastic bit of kit, but perhaps more suited to an indoor gym than a guy riding Zwift in front of his TV.
I want the Neo to succeed as long term I think it will be a better proposition for me than the KICKR. I’m also happy my TT bike fits for example. but right now it seems we cannot get a quiet one here in the Uk……..
Hi guys:
Just an update on my “gumball issue” I tried the grease and mine now works perfect, sound just as the recording DC rainmaker put up a few weeks ago.
I did a 70 km ride today on zwift and nothing at all :D
Does anyone have a bottom line on this? Christmas is coming. Wait another year on the NEO until bugs get worked out, ride my Kurt Kinetic, or buy a Kickr? Noise is not a problem for me so that is not a big deal NEO vs Kickr vs KKinetic. Can’t seem to decide if using a smart trainer is worth an extra 1200 to 1600 dollars to upgrade from what already can be a decent workout for me.
Is the function where the smart trainer just allows you to pedal and not look at the wattage a big deal for everyone? I just look at the watts the whole time it seems. I use sufferfest with trainerroad and my kinetic trainer.
Thanks for any help ,and thank you for this outstanding web site!
V,
“It’s obvious that this unit also has his own cons. By the way, I found one right on the promo video: link to youtube.com
1:26, see how awfully magnetic “micro variation” is constructed! It’s a magnet moving on a thread, some kind of “screw-gear”. So it definitely can’t change resistance fast enough, from 0% to, say, 8%. Magnet should move to the correct place and it will take time, I guess 10-20-30sec.”
This is pure speculation, right? Or do you currently have a RTM B+?
Ray, please leak a little detail from your upcoming guide, are you finding it takes 10-30 seconds for the RTM B+ to change power?
Griffin,
yes, it’s only my guess from what i’ve seen in that promo video. i don’t have my own Real Turbo Muin and i didn’t have a chance to try it myself. But from the video i’ve seen the technical solution (screw-gear) which personally i do not like at all. Neo’s internals look much better and smarter from the engineer point of view.
Muin has fluid unit with progressive exponential resistance AND magnetic “micro variations”. i’m talking about only magnetic part which is responsible for (as far as i understand) huge changes in resistance especially in low speeds and big watts (jump from 0% to, say, 10% or more regardless the speed and cadence). my guess is that this unit technically can not do it fast. if i’m wrong Ray will say, from the practical point of view ;)
According to a response from Elite, the RTM B+ would take “about” 4 seconds to go from 150W to 250W.
I can confirm that time (actually, it’d be closer to 2-3s for that range). As I posted on another thread a moment ago, it’s roughly 40-50w per 1s of movement. That’s testing with a custom TR workout that basically goes from 150w to 310w and 340w instantly. There’s some play in that it’s TR controlling it, which we’ve seen does have an impact elsewhere on other trainers.
But you can actually hear the whole trainer changing gears, sounds like a very faint Roomba as it makes the big shift (I didn’t even notice it the other day when doing other intervals over a longer shifting period).
Thanks for the real info!
40-50 watts per second – it is still too slow. Looks unusable for short 10-20sec full power sprints, when you jump from “regular” 200-250 watts to, say, 800-900 watts.
Also as Ray mentioned in other thread RTM B+ does not broadcasts ant+ speed/cadence/power, only supports ant+ fe-c.
Two these facts (slow resistance change, limited ant+ support) make this year RTM B+ sapless…
My Neo also have this “cracking noise” and I wanted to put some grease in the Edco Freehub like it is shown in the tacx manual above. The only thing is that i can´t remove the Freehub after removing the black propeller. I never removed a freehub before on my bikes so i´m not that experienced but i thought after removing the black propeller i only got to pull it off but obviously i am wrong. Is there somekind of a special trick or what am i doing wrong?
Greetings Sascha
just pull harder…
26 years old, 15 years of training. Pulled as hard as i could.. couldnt get it off -.-
But thanks for your support andi :)
Tried again… now i got it off ;) will report again if the problem with the noise is fixed with grease in my case..
Really happy for those now reporting they have solved their issues. Unfortunately I’ve had no such success. I’ve added grease to hub, even tonight lubed the chain out of desperation. But I still have the same noises and potentially it’s even making the bone sawing in smaller cogs on the big ring.
I can’t face taking it all apart again. It’s a consumer item I paid over £1000 for and it should just work. Perhaps I haven’t applied enough grease. Perhaps not to right place. But I’ve had enough tries now.
See what TACX say tomorrow.
I used mine for a bit longer today with TrainerRoad. Sadly TR doesn’t record cadence properly from the Neo. Throughout the duration it stayed at 22rpm irrespective of what I did. I found the power quite difficult to get right with minor changes on my part resulting it quite big swings. Considering TR was going to form the basis of my winter training this is quite disappointing. I hope they fix this asap.
The neo itself seems ok. It’s louder than I expected from the promotional literature. There is a strong vibrating coming from the unit so I hope it doesn’t go through the floor and annoy the people downstairs.
There is also a clear revving noise on each revolution which I find a bit odd as it clearly shows the device isn’t smooth so how Tacx can claim a realistic road feel is a bit much I think.
I updated the firmware today which is a strange process of turning on/off the bluetooth on the phone. Took about 5min in total with some hangs but got there eventually.
I’m still not sure about the feel of the ride. I will do a longer ride tomorrow and report back.
That sounds like a broken unit then. Whilst I had various issues, cadence was not one of them, in any app (my main app is TR).
I did a 2h TR ride yesterday. Had no Problem with Cadence there. You use ANT+ right? Try to put the ANT+ USB Dongle as near as you can beside to the trainer with an USB Cable… Then you will not loose the Signal…
And remember TR is not 100% ready for the NEO! Thats what they mailed me:
“We are aware of the issue with the Neo. Make sure that your firmware is update-to-date on your Tacx trainer. You can double check for updates in the Tacx app.
We are waiting on a delivery of a Neo so we can test things in house. Once we do receive the trainer for testing we will be able to workout some of the kinks. I don’t have an ETA on when the Neo will be properly supported, rest assured it’s a top priority for us.
Sorry I don’t have better news for you. Let me know if you have any other questions.”
Btw – as a interesting notable/aside, remember that Tacx does a secondary separated broadcast of speed/power/cadence onto their own ANT+ channels. So you can always simply pair TR to the dedicated ANT+ Cadence channel if you want.
This is true of all Tacx trainers.
I found out, that the ERG mode in TR on Ipad is way better on ANT+ then it is on Bluetooth. On Ipad may ERG mode is only working on ANT+? I will have to check this again, cause I did not ride a lot under Bluetooth…
Thanks Ray. How do you do this in TR on the ipad? Apologies, I’m more of a plug and play person as opposed to tech troubleshooter! Thanks
Hmm, I haven’t played with the TR iPad version lately, but it should be an option to scan for sensors, and then you should find a Tacx Cadence sensor out there, that’s basically the cadence channel being all solo-cup. It’s designed for bike computers/apps that don’t support it on the same channel as power. But has other uses, such as this.
I had it in ‘ergo’ mode if that makes a difference. I was using the ipad app with a ant dongle in the ipad (on the handle bars) so can’t get it any closer to the neo.
I also found that when connected to the power, on stopping pedalling the cassette would continue spinning so the chain would come off. I notice in Rays video that when he stops the cassette spins down without the pedals spinning. Mine does do this if I don’t connect it to the power.
So you mean you do not have the freehub running free?
This is not like it should be. If you do not Pedal, the cassette should stay still immediately, also if the tacx Neo Disc is spinning…
Did you lube the Edco hub? Maybe you screwed the Edco hub to tight to the Neo?
When it isn’t connected to power and I stop pedalling the cassette stays still and the hub spins down pretty quickly.
When it is connected to power and I stop pedalling the cassette continues to spin and the chain slackens. If I take my feet off the pedals they spin freely until the hub stops. It’s like riding a fixed wheel where you cannot stop pedalling.
I don’t think it is too tight otherwise it would behave the same off the power as it does under it?
Mine also does this, it spins down for a long while when plugged in and as you say if I take my feet off the pedals they also turn. As yet I havent removed and greased the freehub.
This is the problem I got when I changed the EDCO hub that came fitted with the new one TACX sent me to try. I described this above.
Both NEO 1 and 2 come fitted with Hubs that freewheel. However the new Hub (spare sent by TACX) when fitted to NEO 1 = no freewheel. When the cap at the end is not fitted freewheel works, as you tighten it slowly the freewheel stopped rotating. Anything like a tightness that will secure the Hub stops the freewheel. You can even stop it with finger tightness.
I also suspect the vibration felt above is a variation of the bone sawing I describe.
I’m confused. Should it freewheel with the pedals moving when connected to the power or not?
Does anyone else have a unit that vibrates? Mine is the same as the video posted by Sean above (copy pasted here: link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com )
Also the cadence doesn’t read on TR.
Do I have a dodgy unit?
It should freewheel whether you have it plugged into power or not. The chain should never go slack or come off when you stop pedalling. It should always behave just like your bike would on the road.
I see. On mine I can rotate the hub with my hand and it will rotate the pedals.
It also sounds sort of similar to Lee’s video here (link to youtube.com )
I’ll take another look tomorrow but starting to feel quite disappointed.
Andrew, nope… this is not true. If you don’t have power on the unit, the freewheel stops within 1 or two seconds… If the unit is powered on, the freewheel runs longer… Also if you are on a descent and plug of power, unit stops within verz short time, and this is how it should be….
I will rephrase my answer to be clearer. Under neither condition should the freewheel cause the chain to be pushed forward and unravel before the FD risking it being trapped in the cranks / etc.
Which is what happens to mine when I fit the spare hub and the freewheel becomes fixed.
This is getting quite ridiculous with the amount of common faults. “Mine does that too” is the new Tacx motto it seems.
My advice would be to adopt the same position with your place of purchase that my LBS has done with the distributor/Tacx – quite simply “Don’t send me another one until you’ve sorted out all of the issues.”
I’m now out – I returned mine for a full refund. However I note also that fitment on – shall we say, “unusual” bikes – is also a concern. I pickup my TT bike on Monday, so almost certainly that would be another nail in the coffin. My plan was to sit on the TT bike all over winter getting used to the position.
Don’t get too despondent guys, just remember the grass isn’t always greener. I’m already into beta firmware to get a useable trainer with the KICKR Snap I bought for the wife/son…. they all have their fair share of issues and I just think that in this niche high end sports industry it takes a good few months, maybe even a year before all niggles are ironed out, all firmware’s are stable and all apps have good sold support.
So far I can tell you, from my club now three other friends have a tacx Neo, and no one has had a problem with the Trainer. One of them failed installing the firmware the first time, but second try was successful. All trainers are silent. Two of us did the Edco hub maintenance, also without problems. Mine now has over 75h of Zwift, thats almost over 2400km of distance. The longest ride I did through Ironman Hawaii Live coverage with over 5h30 with no drops in Zwift and Neo is still silent, very responsive and does just what it has to do…
Normal talking without raising voice is absolutely no problem while standing next to the trainer… And for sure I’m not a Tacx fanboy, tested all kind of other trainers, Airstreeem, Kickr, Bushido, Cyclus2. Next to my Cyclus2 the Neo is the best Trainer I’ve ever used…
Einundsiebzig – Does your Neo vibrate? I have mine on a mat and I can feel the vibrations through the mat.
If you rotate the large silver hub with your hand do the pedals move? Mine do..
I have no idea if mine is faulty or not.
You’re not making this easy……
I’ve had mine in bits AGAIN tonight. Greased the hub again and used all the information / feedback above to do it flawlessly.
A 10 minutes spin seemed to have no clanking, but this means little without a longer test which I will try to do tomorrow evening. There’s a definite “roughness” in the smallest cogs when on the big ring.
To be honest I’m sure everyone’s fed up of these updates.
You say: There’s a definite “roughness” in the smallest cogs when on the big ring.
It is really hard to understand descriptions for sound or feel in words…
As you said you are using a new bike, especially for the trainer, I guess you are on a brandnew chain and cassette also? In my opinion, all you need is to index your gearing right an you will be happy…
?
I replied to Andrews post… My answer to your question read below!
I agree that it’s very difficult to describe what I’m experiencing. All I can say is that “bone-sawing” is a very accurate description of the issue in it’s worst form (how it is on Neo 2). This is the same thing, but milder. Gentle bone-sawing.!
Unfortunately Einundsiebzig I never claimed to be a bike engineer and still don’t. If my real bike has issues over above cleaning, lubing & tyres I take it to the LBS and let them deal with it. I even have Di2 on my main road bike to avoid any indexing issues. And before you ask, my main bike will not fit on the Neo due to Thru-Axles and Disc brakes.
As you summise everything is new on this bike, it is based on 2015 Shimano 105 (11-speed). It changes gear perfectly on the Neo, there are no “half way in/out” noises you often hear on the road when the next gear doesn’t fully engage, it’s solidly in gear with every click. I’m afraid I don’t know enough to start indexing gears to solve a problem that may / not be related to that.
With a £1000+ device I expect to just be able to put the bike on it and ride. The fact I have to fit a cassette is annoying, but ok if it works. Above that I just expect it to work. I don’t mind a recommendation for a new cassette and chain (check!), but I then expect it to work. I don’t expect to need to be a qualified bike mechanic.
With the greatest of respect Andrew, you are mis-informed regarding DI2. It is not a magical fix for indexing issues. It just allows you to index your gears easier through the shifters, however you still need to manually set your high and low stops, plus front derailleur position/height.
I do sympathise but this is what I hinted at before with regards to the suitability of a wheel-off design. I just don’t think its for all people. It is NOT just a “fit and forget”. You will always have to reindex because a cassette will never be in the same position on a trainer as it is in your wheel.
this roughness… I think it’s just a chain / cassette thing. Which is not a real problem, I think.
No it’s not. But that has been said often enough to repeat again.
My Neo is also starting to yowl a little bit when I do cadence above 100-110 RPM with power over 200 to 250 Watts. I think this is just an airflow of the plastic turbine wheel inside the NEO… All up to 90-95 RPM is absolutly silent. My Neo also vibrated a little bit when I did efforts over 350 to 500 Watts. But this is gone since i put grease on the Edco hub ring…
If I turn the large silver disc on the Neo clockwise, the pedals are not moving. If I turn it counterclockwise, pedals move backwards…
Have you done the Edco maintenance? Maybe you did not do it right. Very important is to screw the freehub not too tight on to the Neo. Just slightly over handtight… In Nm I would say 0.5 to 1 Nm. This is enough, cause the freehub don’t need to be press screwed onto the axis.
0.5 / 1nm ? I’d like to see something official from TACX before tightening so loosely. I gently used an Allen Key just to make sure it was solid, but estimate 2/3nm. Can’t image that makes any difference.
I tried tightening the hub tighter and with the old hub the freewheel works perfectly no matter how tight. The new hub stops working with very light pressure.
Way too much. Remember how easy it was to unscrew the hubscrew… I talked to our german distributer on phone and he gave me the advice NOT to overtighten it and only to screw it that there is nomore play in between screw and edco hub.
If you tighten to much, you put pressure onto the bearings wich is not very good for a smooth running. Handtight is enough, cause you put pressure with the quick releases quite on to the dropouts, wich makes the srew almost impossible to get loose…
Have you ever mounted a hub and indexed the play of the wheel axis and bearings? If you over tight the screws there, your wheel does not rotate a single mm….
For what it’s worth, Wahoo recommend 8lbft on the nut holding the freehub on the kickr.
However he’s right the hub ain’t going anywhere :)
Sorry just checked it’s 6 now.
Which is 8nm and WAY higher than I have done it up. An official answer would be nice.
I think we all agree, that all this problems should not come up anyway…
So maybe I was only a lucky one out of a all the other Neos…
Mine has a serial Number in the fivehundrets, so pretty sure that it is one out of the first batch…
My friends Neos have Serial Numbers in between 1200 and 1500… Definitely newer than my Neo…
FWIW, the support staff at bike24 emailed me that neither they nor the distributor were aware of any higher-than-normal fault rates of the Neo.
I see. I will try and loosen the edco tomorrow. I did do mine up as tight as I could. Maybe this is causing the problem?
Like I said… Remember how easy it was to open the srew… As tight as you could is not the best option to mount a hub…
I loosened everything this morning and still the same. If I rotate the silver hub by hand in either direction the pedals are rotated too. There is also a low level hum that comes from the unit.
I will raise it with Tacx and see what they say.
Does that low hum result in a horrible bone-sawing feel through the bike when you pedal ? Especially when using the smaller cogs with the big ring ?
No, not a ‘horrible bonesaw’ feeling. It is just louder than I would expect and you can feel the vibrations on the mat. It also gets louder the harder you pedal.
It might actually be working as intended and my expectations aren’t aligned.
It might also be myself which has set it up incorrectly, which would be preferable as then I can get it working properly as opposed to it being faulty!
Ironically though, Neos are marketed as “Zero Maintenance”. And any premium premium product like this shouldn’t need a Masters Degree in Bike Science to get it working properly.
Perhaps this is the reason that Wahoo fit the KickR with a hub and a cassette as default. Then they can QA exactly what the customer is getting and make sure it works as intended. It seems here that there’s potential Neo issues, potential EDCO issues, potential issues installing a cassette, etc…. There are so many places that problems could be and it’s very hard for anyone (customer or TACX) to control everything.
It would be good if Tacx or someone else put a video up on YouTube demonstrating the assembly, preferably with an 11 speed shimano. Then I’d have a better idea if I’d screwed it up! :)
The process of installing the cassette is very simple, I had to do it 5 or 6 times this weekend – lol. I did consider making a video, but my hands were constantly covered in oil / grease.
With an 11-speed Shimano you have the easiest install and its the same as I have. Quick description below.
Put the Neo on it’s side (collapse 1 leg) so that the hub is pointing up.
You do not need any spacers before the cassette goes on.
Place the cassette onto the hub, part by part.
It will only go on 1 way so you cant get this wrong.
Then you will need the EDCO 11 or 12 ring to tighten it on. This is determined by the size of your smallest cog. So 11-32 = 11.
You will also need a chain whip because the hub / “wheel” will rotate in both directions.
Hold the cassette with the Chain Whip and tighten very tight with the Campag Cassette Tool. (40nm).
Job done.
Hope this helps.
Thanks. I’ve actually installed one before but am sort of hoping I’ve done it wrong as that would be an easy fix!
I reinstalled it over lunch and was careful to make sure everything was lined up correctly etc. I now have the clanking sound too :( Couldn’t work out if it was the bike or not though.
The pedals still move irrespective of which way I rotate the silver hub.If I stop pedalling the chain slackens and fly’s off.
Waiting to hear back from Tacx.
Attached is a video (if it works!). I’m not sure it sounds correct?
Video here
link to vid.me
Sorry, but so far what I see is a pretty silent NEO with a bad indexed Shifting… :-(
Are you sure you fine tuned your shifting right?
How did you get ‘bad indexing’ from that?
I didn’t change gear once. The chain was in the middle (six cogs in) of the 11 cogs (so not cross chaining).
I think there is something wrong with the hub. It doesn’t spin freely like a wheel would. It is firmly attached to the unit so whichever way to silver hub is rotated the pedals also rotate.
I can’t comment on indexing; however, if your hub does not freewheel then it’s broken and you need to open a ticket with TACX.
I was sent a replacement hub (pre greased) to try on my first Neo this weekend. When I fitted it I had the same issue – no freewheel and my chain shot forward onto the floor when I stopped. At first I thought I was going mad, surely not another different issue, had I broken something on the bike when taking it off ? After closer inspection (and a brief spell in the asylum) I switched back to the old hub (which came with it) and the freewheel was ok again. Later I discovered that the new hub freewheel did work with no cap on the end to hold it in place, but at the cap was added and tightened (with fingers, gently) it stops rotating. So not all the hubs are the same.
If the freewheel doesn’t work your chain will either come off, end up on the floor or jam in the cranks if you stop pedalling.
Einundsiebzig got “bad indexing” for the same reason as I would say “bad indexing”. Your drivetrain sounds far noisier than it should, simple as that.
Indexing doesn’t have to be changing gear – its the way we ensure that when you are in any given gear, the chain is being driven squarely over the teeth of the cog and not pulled to the sides at all. You can have a bike that “more or less” changes gear just fine, but that does NOT mean its indexed well.
Indexing is a pet hate of mine. Always stopping friends and giving them a gentle barrel adjusting ;-)
I see. Well I can fiddle with the little adjuster but that won’t fix the vibrations or the fact the device doesn’t freewheel without the pedals turning. There’s also a clunking noise but perhaps thats due to the drive chain? It does sound like its coming from the Neo. FWIW the bike runs fine in the real world.
I too cannot hear a sound from the NEO, just the chain which does not run very “clean” I think…
The bike, chain and cassette are new. The drive chain is being affected by the NEO. If I run it on a normal wheel it sounds fine. Because the NEO doesn’t free wheel it is effectively pulling on the chain at the top/bottom of each revolution causing the chain to be tugged at and the noises you’re hearing. I cannot spin the cassette or hub. Unfortunately I stopped the video too early but there is no spin down from the device. It literally just stops and the chain fly’s forwards.
What a lot of you guys possible aren’t aware of is that the Kickr is basically a basic magnet trainer with direct drive and smart features in terms of a fairly modest amount of kinetic energy being stored in its flywheel.
The neo simulates outdoor riding in it’s power curve more closely HOWEVER if they have made a trainer that doesn’t fit a lot of superbike tri/tt bikes they really have dropped a clanger as they say in the UK.
Here is a 51cm P5 of mine, shown with the template provided above held back as far as humanly possible within the horizontal dropouts. Even at that level if the template base corresponds to the “QR” axle, then half of the clamp would be hanging out the back of the hanger any further forward and it is going to be fouling the chainstays if the template is to be believed.
Has anyone on here had a Neo in a small P5 yet? I imagine in a Venn diagram of folk willing to spend 4 figures on a trainer, there will be a significant overlap with folk wishing to put a high end tri/ tt bike on it.
Any help appreciated
Try again with the photo!
Hi Chris. I wish I didn’t have to be aware of any of this. How a Neo works, what the insides look like, how to grease hubs, remove / fit cassettes, what an EDCO hub is, etc, etc.
I’d really just like to be able to pay lots of money for a high quality device that I put my bike onto and it works. No squeaks, no rattles, no roughness, no noises (or any type other than the chain going around), just works. The Neo is advertised as both silient and maintenance free and sold for more money that practially any other such device.
TACX are doing a great job to help. I’m just trying to stay sane. Perhaps it’s the trainer, perhaps it’s the hub, perhaps it’s my expectations, perhaps my lack of bike skills, perhaps (as Einundsiebzig says) it could now be gear indexing (see above). The fact there are so many factors to consider makes it all the more difficult.
I agree. At this price point I expect it to work out of the box. Maybe further down the line I might expect to have to grease things etc, after all it is a machine so some maintenance at some point is expected. Having to do it on arrival though is very slack. Basically doing the job Tacx should have done and no guarantee it will work.
will try this greasing thing tonight to see if it helps, but if not then I think its going to be time to log a ticket with Tacx. Interestingly I took my bike off and folded the Neo up on Sunday morning and noted that the QR skewer has slightly bent!! I weigh 74kg, before anyone asks! :D
I’m disappointed in my Neo. First I found out that I needed a firmware update to use it with TrainerRoad but can only do that with an iPhone which I don’t have. I had checked the Tacx website about platform compatibility before buying and saw the Windows, Android and Apple logos so thought I’d be fine with just Windows. Nope.
And then I discovered that I have a bad unit which makes a metallic clicking sound when I rotate the flywheel/cover. The annoying thing about this is the cost I’ll incur in shipping a 20kg+ package back to the online retailer I bought it from assuming I get an RMA from Tacx or the retailer.
For such an expensive product, and given Tacx’s reputation, you’d think they would have been more careful this time around. Might just switch to Kickr.
Anyone know if the clicking sound can be repaired by the end user?
You can try this, but only if you you know what to do:
link to tacxdata.com
Mine is a different noise. Sounds like those magnets on the rotating cover knocking against fixed metal parts. It is immediately evident when one rotates the flywheel only a 1/3 or 1/2 rotation – click click click!
I’m surprised that, given what appears to be really small tolerances on the distance to those magnets, they didn’t simply have a QA step that involved rotating the flywheel half a rotation.
Waiting for some sort of RMA from Tacx. Not looking forward to how much it will cost me to ship that 20kg+ unit and how long I’ll have to wait for a replacement.
Couldn’t resist, against my better judgement I pre-ordered a Neo last night. Will report back with results……
Would’ve gone Kickr by I’ve got tinnitus and listening to vids of the noise it makes really got to me. Fingers crossed……
In my opinion TACX made a mistake (if you like to call it so…) to leave too much installation work to the end user… like installation of the cassette… to people who either don’t have the right tool, the needed knowledge or both… It would be much better with less room for problems if TACX could deliver the NEO with pre-installed drivetrain. I know, this would not help against any of those noises… but sometimes I think we all get a little bit neurotic here and starting to hear strange sounds from the NEO when it is actually a bad drivetrain setup…
I do agree quite a bit. It’s the same problem Elite has as well, I think having to install a cassette is a pretty big deterrent. Ultimately very few people have a secondary cassette just hanging around – so they have to purchase one anyway.
Wahoo simply offers two versions, and if you want you can always change out the cassette on your own later. Sure a handful of people will end up with an extra cassette they didn’t need, but I’m guessing that’s like 2% of the buying population, at best.
I dunno, personally I think if you are willing to spend the price of a full carbon road bike with 11sp 105 on a trainer then slinging a cassette on (or paying someone a few bob for 2mins of their time) can’t be that big a hurdle.
What will kill it stone dead in the water is the inability to fit a load of high end frames, poor (perceived or actual) QC and sloppy integration with the apps that give the trainer it’s high end value in the first place.
In fairness to Tacx they seem to be open and helpful on here and have read that they are proactive in altering the firmware to simulate road like inertia even further but it would be even more helpful if the product ‘just worked’ so the early adopters don’t feel like beta testers and tell all their mates the trainer has more bugs than a VW convention.
Yeah but in the end… If the trainer does come with a cassette and your bike-shift is indexed to your road wheelset you still need to setup your gears to the cassette you put on the Neo… I think someone who’s missing skills, to change or mount a cassette may be better provided buying a spinning…
Bicycles always need care and maintenance if it is to change a tire, chain, brake-pads… CLEANING your pride the right way… So no way to come around without any technical interest or the will to learn something about bikes…
I also think there might be “little” a potential of overlistening sounds, vibrations, etc… :-)
From the App side, I think you cannot blame Tacx… Its work, the developers might have to do to make their software work right with a new trainer like the Neo is… f.ex. like TR is going to do… they are still waiting for a Neo to test and make changes to their software…
The biggest mistake is to require customers to use an iPhone to update their firmware. Their support people actually told me that I needed to “borrow and iPhone from a family member or friend”. I responded that I didn’t know anyone with an iPhone well enough to borrow one for an evening and their response was basically “We are sorry to inform you that this is only possible with an iPhone”.
I tried asking the dealer if they would do it for me. They said no.
Why on earth did they not put a USB port or use WiFi? Baffling to me.
Fwiw, it was actually the exact same story for the KICKR for the first 12-18 months needing an iPhone.
So, if Tacx only ends up being a few weeks between when the iPhone and Android app released, that’s not too bad in comparison…
To be fair though, Wahoo pioneered themselves as “iPhone powered fitness” in the early days.
Let’s be realistic here. Most people who buy this level of trainer are seriously into cycling and both know how to install a cassette and have the tools to do it. I can’t see having to install a cassette as a big deterrent. The problem with the Neo appears to be the Edco hub’s attachment to the Neo. When force is applied to the hub through an attached cassette, a litany of problems from annoying noises to failure to spin properly can develop. Tacx is saying that lubrication of a plastic sleeve in the hub should solve the problem. From the comments here, that doesn’t seem to be the universal case. I can’t imagine that the mere attachment of a cassette to the Edco hub causes the problems described here. It’s the use of the hub on the Neo which brings out the problems. I am curious to know what other products on the market use the same hub and if the same problems are manifest there as well.
Lol, as a wild guess all of the ‘over listening’ comments are directed at me. Quite frustrating although this is the internet.
As I mentioned earlier the bike and drive chain are new, as is the cassette. As I keep repeating but which no-one seems to be listening too is that the device doesn’t freewheel. Here is a video of me rotating the pedals then stopping, you’ll see the chain fly off. Currently the device isn’t acting like a normal wheel where when you stop pedalling the wheel would spin freely.
I guess this has no effect on the noise and I must be over listening to make this happen lol.
link to vid.me
Not adressed to you, as in earlier posts before said, your freehub is broken if it does not allow the wheel to spin while you stop pedaling…
Yours looks definitely broken.
And for the indexing – if you can pedal backwards without any problems the setup is usually fine.
After a 30+ mile on Zwifting tonight it seems that the clanging Gumball noise is (hopefully) gone. LOUD CHEER.
However the feeling that gears aren’t quite right still persists and the mini bone sawing continues in many gears, especially on the big ring.
I’ve decided the next step is to follow the advice of many and get the setup indexed. Not going to try to learn on the job though, I’ve contacted the owner of my LBS and he will come over later in the week. The charge for knowing what’s real from a man with 30 years experience is now irrelevant, I just need to know.
My 2p is that you are wasting your time *if* your Neo is exhibiting the same sawing noise/vibration mine did. Do what I did, turn the pedals by hand (or get a helper) and place pressure on the metal disc. If the noise/vibration changes/goes away then its a Neo problem and no amount of re-indexing will change that.
And in other news, I have a third Neo at home with me. Was at the LBS picking up my TT bike and he wants me to give this one a going over. Must be a sucker for punishment :)
@Lee, you may be right. But unless I try I won’t know for sure. Right now I have 2 Neo’s (thanks TACX) and that’s 2 chances to get 1 that works smoothly and quietly.
NEO-2 is unusable with a Sawing sensation that’s extremely bad.
NEO-1 is now greased up and much quieter, but still exhibits a milder version of the above.
With an expert looking it over I can get a much better verdict on that it is, AND sometimes knowing what it isn’t is just as important.
As promised, an update. Still good news: after several interval training sessions, my Neo is still silent. (Had the Edco / Gumball problem, was fixed by Tacx last Friday.) Tacx support kept in touch, wanting to know how I fared. Good service. Neo makes a humming sound, but the noise of my bike drivetrain is louder. Some vibration, but not audible downstairs. So: it is possible. After being annoyed by the noise of the Kickr I used before, I can now train relatively silently, earlier in the morning and later in the evening…
Always good to hear a positive outcome Igor !
Hi Igor, could you post a recording of your now silent NEO ? Would be interesting to have as many sample of OK NEO than bad ones. Thanks,
OK 3rd Neo. Yes THIRD Neo.
Out the box. Firmware updated.
Went to remove the EDCO hub. Er….”blimey”. I’ve a garage with a very extensive Teng toolkit and had to use a bearing puller to get this off (link to amprotools.net) – no way was that coming off with standard pulling or gentle persuasive taps with rubber hammers and drifts. So – chances of Mr Layman doing this – zero. Even with the puller it was tough.
Greased up the hub as per the note from Tacx. Reassembled. Did the 5mm allen tight to make sure the hub was fully on, then loosened and gently gently re-tightened so it placed no load on the bearings.
Put on 10sp cassette with campag tool/chain whip.
Put on bike. Started pedalling. Jawbone vibration and noise.
Got off bike, put the Neo back in the box and laughed.
Is NEO coming from Never Expect Operation?
:-)
Maybe it’s your bike and my bike has the same problem? I mean what are the odds of getting three the same?
Wow, thats bad. Tacx seriously needs to stop sending units out until they are QCd. Are they just not testing them at all before sending them out??????????
Hi Lee,
Why did you remove the hub before testing it without greasing?
Because I wanted to be sure that the Neo was in best possible condition. For example, the sawbone issue may have been hub/shaft/grease related too – who knows?
When I removed the hub (eventually) everything was so dry that clearly thats wrong. Again, whilst the kickr is different, the hub on a shaft approach is not and a kickr comes out of the box with everything clear greased up nicely.
You had to use a bearing puller?!? The freehub came off very easily for me. Like pulling any other freehub off – twist slightly as if back pedalling so the pawls disengage and a gentle pull and it came off.
Put a bit of grease on the sleeve and also a bit on the pawls to quieten the freehub ratcheting. All done in 3 minutes.
At first go it sounds quieter now, but have only used for a very short easy ride as back is playing up atm. So not conclusive at this stage.
Putting aside the “pfff I know whats what on a bike” wideboy stance for a moment.
Because its the same on other bikes. Whilst I had the Neo I wondered if my new TT bike would fit.
Its close in a number of places, but it does fit. Certainly I’d be happy riding it on the Neo.
You know you can’t ride a canon like that right? ;-)
I’ve identified one area in which the Tacx Neo severely outperforms the Wahoo Kickr:
This Neo review has been in existence for 61 days and is averaging 15 posts per day, while Ray’s In-Depth Kickr review only managed a rather unimpressive 4.7 posts per day over its initial 61 days.
Perhaps the Kickr is less problematic than the Neo and the deluge of posts about the Neo reflects this. Obviously the Kickr is not without fault, but I think it is inherently a better design.
@Lee, three Neo’s all faulty! Wow. I wonder if the mechanism is so delicate that transport affects them? It doesn’t say fragile on the box but there is a note in the manual that says if dropped it will cause vibrations to occur. It’s not hard to imagine them being knocked around a bit when being transported internationally. Either that or the QC process is weak, or maybe its a combination of the two issues!
I’m still waiting to hear back from Tacx on mine. Reported it 24hrs ago. Auto response says 48 hours so we shall see today..
Somehow all the comments are gone – last one I can see is comment 200. Hope thats only temporary – or maybe Tacx hacked the site :)
After I’ve posted I can read them all again – strange.
On topic: @Adam “Maybe it’s your bike and my bike has the same problem? I mean what are the odds of getting three the same?”
I’ve tried my Neo with my indoor bike (actually a cyclocross, but as it is more comfortable inside it’s now my indoor bike :), with my Giant Defy and with my Crossbike – result was the same “sawboning” on all 3 of them – hence it’s definitely the Neo and not the bike.
Anyone else unable to load comments below 200? None are showing up for me
I have the same problem, but it comes and goes. It was doing it yesterday as well.
So looking at the photos in post #759 it looks like the metal disc is running 2 different sized bearings. Now depending on how the spindle has been machined there is really only one way to preload the bearings, and that is if the spindle has enough gap behind the small bearing, that you can preload it when you tighten the freehub retainer. I notice the metal disc has play in it though, just like loose bearings in a hub, which indicates there is no preload happening. So my current guess is that there are sounds from the loose bearings.
It’s been two days since I e-mailed Tacx and no response has been received other than the automated one promising a response within two days .. Very disappointing.
Finally it around to recording my noise issues. This is the bone saw noise, right? It sounds worse at times when pushing a big gear but this is just small ring pedalling by hand. link to youtu.be
I gonna stick with my theory of bearings atm. I think they need preload.
Disagree – if you are saying that the tightness of the freehub is related to the sawbone vibration/noise. Difficult to describe, but when you tighten the freehub retaining nut there is no “give” whatsoever – its not like you can feel you are pushing a bearing into its race. It goes up tight and stops dead.
However, I’m *not* saying the noise/vibration isn’t related to the bearings, just that its not a tightness issue. In the same way the shaft was completely dry, its possible that the shaft needs some grease for the main disc bearings to sit on.
If you see my video where I managed to quieten the disc by applying hand pressure, the only possible effect I can be having is
a) changing the load/angles on the bearings
b) moving the disc (perhaps a rubbing inside?)
Given that the disc is a simple metal cover and inside are magnets, you would assume that any kind of rubbing/fouling would result in a metallic scraping noise, not a vibration and brrrrr noise.
Therefore my suspicion is that it is indeed bearing related, either faulty bearings, incorrect fitment, or a similar lubrication issue.
Sadly (and I definitely did NOT disassemble a unit ho ho), it is impossible to get the front disc cover off of the main unit without a specialist tool in my opinion. Maybe a large puller like I used on the freehub. But you cannot get any purchase on the disc until you remove the two plastic sides, and these are not easy to remove either.
Hence why the recommendation has to be – send back for replacement, but only when the replacement units are known to be fixed.
No, that is not what I am saying. But I am saying the tightness of the freehub should be the issue, which would mean that it could apply pressure to the inner ring of the outer bearing in the metal disc. It is not the freehub I am talking about when I talk about play, it is the metal disc. You yourself have said you can remove your noise by applying some pressure (I choose answer a, preload) to it. I dont imagaine the bearings are faulty, unless the tolerances are way too much, and they have gone it crooked. I suggest the bearing preload solution in post #943 (although these numbers can change). If you can take the metal disc off, like Einundsiebzig, then I think you would find that a washer placed behind the large bearing would shift the whole disc out far enough to allow the freehub retainer to apply preload to the disc bearings.
That’s exactly what I got. I guess mine is even a bit worse – though decreasing with higher cadence. (Link to my video somewhere above). I will let it be repaired after my holiday, just have to find an agreement for the shipping costs with Tacx.
Ray, is your Neo still silent and perfect?
Yes.
One thing to keep in mind is that while the last few hundred (or more than a few hundred) messages here have mostly been troubleshooting, it’s also troubleshooting from what is essentially a handful (I think 4-6) people.
Meaning, there have been thousands of units shipped, so from a pure percentages standpoint that’s pretty good. It’s less ideal when a single user gets two bad units in a row (whatever the reason), though it’s possible that may be a result of batches. Really hard to say.
It’s something I’m keeping a close eye on (if for no other reason than it fills my inbox all day long).
A very good point.
My first faulty Neo – Gumball :) Was in the very first shipment to LBS. Had no sawbone issue.
Subsequent two Neos with sawbone – both from the same shipment to LBS so one presumes same batch.
I tried to rescue the gumball back from my LBS as it now appears that can be fixed with grease easily, however he had already sent it back.
To the best of my knowledge Tacx have said nothing about this sawbone issue, are currently not replying to emails (for me and a few others here) and no fix is on the horizon.
Tacx answered me last week on my sawbone problem (I included the video), but they didn’t answer on my second email where I was asking how long a replacement will take – anyway, here is their answer:
Hello
We are sorry to hear this. Thank you for information.
We also would like to have the serial number of this brake.
This brake needs to be replaced as this is making a noise that it should not.
Can you please contact your Tacx dealer so they can contact their service centre.
Thank you.
I am on day 3 with no response from Tacx. Will update here if there is a response. Very disappointing service so far. You’d think they’d be all over it. For a high priced item the quality isn’t great (in my experience) and the customer support is yet to be seen.
Unrelated to the Neo, I sent an email regarding license key activation issue. No reply. Sent an email to their online store yesterday, got this:
And once again I have forwarded your email to support@tacx.nl,
but it is very busy at the moment so they will answer your email as soon as possibble
And I understand you think it takes too long to get help, but I cannot help it, I am sorry
Basically, piss poor.
I’m following this thread with interest. :-)
I do, too … but I think it all gets kind out of hands here … the more postings, the more confusion and misunderstandings and misinformation will occur …
It all gets more and more confused around here … and if I read here enough I sure will find any new noise at my GEO, I am sure!
And now for a report on the whining/ringing noise some people mention. Today I experienced this for the first time. FWIW it happened for me at approx 285rpm of the metal disc.
Some methods to hit around 285rpm:
52×15@83cad
53×15@81cad
54×15@80cad
The magic Tool to unmount the metal disc…
Thats overkill mate. This is all you need (works for a lot of bike maintenance):
link to tinyurl.com
Ray – Does your Neo vibrate and can you feel the vibrations by putting a hand on the floor next to it?
Is the expectation of the Neo a low level humming plus drive chain noise? (no vibrations?)
Thanks
I’m not sure how I’d ride the bike and put my hand on the floor at the same time. :-/
I lack such flexibility. ;)
Well, I was thinking when rotating the pedals by hand :)
@Lee – If they are overwhelmed with customer support’ doesn’t that just imply that they are getting a lot of queries on their products, of which some (a lot?) are complaints about the Neo (mine is in there for example).
If their support is overwhelmed on release of a new product it’s not unreasonable to speculate that a lot of people are having problems. There’s approximately six folks on this thread, if they were the only ones with problems then six people are hardly going to overload a customer support function.
I wouldn’t overthink slow support from Tacx – people have complained about that for years.
That said, also do ensure that it’s not caught in SPAM/etc, that did happen with someone.
I think there are a lot more faulty units out there then we see on this forum. Mine had the gumball issue and I sent it back for a refund because I did not want to deal with a lengthy repair process. (In the EU you can basically return any merchandise bought online within a fortnight and get your money back)
Now I am just waiting how the whole situation plays out and I might order a new Neo later this year or just switch to the Kickr.
For the high pricetag of the Neo there definitely too many issues.
@Ray. Although I appreciate that the majority of the issues are from half a dozen people, many of those have now had multiple units, we are fixing them ourselves (following guides) & for most they are still not running as anticipated / advertised.
I think it’s likely that most people buying a Neo do not read this thread (unfortunately) and of those that do, not everyone posts. Many units will have gone to normal people that don’t know any better and are just putting up with strange noises / rubbing. Many others that are taking them back won’t be reporting here either.
It seems very unlikely indeed that if 5 in 1000 are wrong that many people would recieve multiple bad units from different batches.
was even sent a replacement hub for the 1st Neo and there’s something so fundamentally wrong that it wouldn’t even work. On installation the Freewheel doesn’t turn and the chain comes off when you stop pedalling.
I’m currently using the first unit and are now paying for my LBS owner to come over and inspect the whole setup to see if he can find the source of the “rubbing” / “sawbone” feeling I get in the small cogs on the big ring. I’m hoping that something can be realligned or adjusted, but if it can’t at least I will know for sure it’s the Neo.
Contacted the online shop I got the Neo from this morning, they are arranging for pickup which is good, but the trainer will need to go back to Tacx for repair – this is not so good :( FTP builder might have to wait – Dread to think how long that might take.
I am, however, approaching this with an open mind, given that this is my first purchase of Tacx equipment. If they can get it fixed or replaced in a timely fashion, with a working model, then ill have no particular complaints.
I’m in agreement with the above. I think this issue is bigger than is currently accepted. These are hardware faults from a company that has acknowledged it needed to tighten up it’s QC. These hardware faults seem fundamental to the device as multiple people experiencing the same set of problems.
I’m also in agreement with Andrew that those who are posting here are the more savvy consumer who wants the device to work. There also isn’t an overwhelming number of positive posts here… Maybe equal to or less than those complaining?
Re the support – I’m not about to go trawling through posts but I’m sure you said somewhere that Tacx were known more for dodgy software support and were ok with hardware (I’m paraphrasing and if I remember incorrectly then I retract this!).
I’m nearing the point of returning it but ordered online so god knows how much thats going to cost. I think I’d like a refund at this point as the lack of communication from Tacx troubles me.
I’d try emailing TACX support again. Chances are they are very busy right now. Mention that you have posted here and perhaps a couple of the key post #’s.
I’ve found them very good and genuinely trying everything they can to help. I was sent a new hub to try on the first Neo (which didn’t freewheel) and a new Neo to try (which has severe sawing issues). Unfortunately the Neo is very new and we are effectively beta testing it for them.
I guess the challenge is knowing if we’re looking at initial random QC issues (stemming from units produced two months ago), or something more. Given we have had people stop by without any issues on units, I’ve gotta believe it’s more random/smaller.
Plus, with thousands of units shipped on a product that’s sole purpose in life is being quiet (seriously, there’s no other reason to buy it over the KICKR), then if it wasn’t quiet more people would be yelling. Not at all saying some people aren’t having problems, but just trying to keep things in perspective.
Hopefully Tacx can step in soon.
In other news, a bunch of Elite trainers just showed up on my doorstep…so off to spend the afternoon with them.
The comments have disappeared?
They’re still here, just having some caching issues last few days, if you refresh a few minutes later it shows up. Support folks are working on it.
@Ray. Now you’ve packed in the day job I thought you were running out of Euro’s for the meter ;-) Lights keep on going on / off…
Btw – Congrats on the career segway and good luck with blog / future.
Nah, this meter cost more to fix than not (I pay developers for hours).
Thanks!
To add another data point here I can mention that my Tacx Neo developed the gumball/Edco noise after a few hours of use. At first it seemed to appear only occasionally, but later it was there mostly all the time. I did the Edco-grease-fix as detailed by Tacx and that appears to have eliminated the noise.
There is also some rubbing-like noise coming from my unit, especially at high power/torque, which may or may not be related to the sawbone syndrome. I have the impression that the worst units have this noise present all the time (when pedaling), so my case seems to be less annoying. Anyway it does feel like a bearing issue, but I have no idea really. The only thing I can sort of relate it to is when I’ve used BB30 adapters (Wheels Mfg) to fit a 24mm Shimano Hollowtech crankset in a BB30 bottom bracket. If I wasn’t careful with proper alignment and torque it would produce some noise and vibration which, if I recall correctly was similar to the Neo sawbone noise. Again, I have no idea, but it would indeed be nice if the Edco hub was the source of the noise because the fix would be very simple and also relatively cheap by replacing the hub.
All sounds very familiar. But when I tried swapping the EDCO hub for a new one the freewheel didn’t work. And when I got a 2nd Neo the issue with vibration / sawing was far worse.
So I wouldn’t be sure that just swapping the hub will solve all your issues. Unless you get lucky…
Well if the freewheel didn’t work then obviously something must have gone wrong in the installation or the new hub was faulty or some other compatibility problem. Just because you got a bad 2nd Neo doesn’t mean the hub isn’t the problem.
I’m not really considering replacing the hub, at least not yet, because I can live with the noise for now. I’m also definitely not going through the trouble of returning the unit. I was just pointing out that, hypothetically, if the hub was causing the sawbone noise then I imagine that would be rather convenient for many because replacing the hub would be simpler than returning the unit. But as you say it might not solve all issues anyway. Figure I’ll just wait and see if Tacx can sort out this issue before I do anything myself.
Comment 200?
Ray,
I must take issue with your comment on the noise being the ONLY reason to buy a Neo over a KICKR.
How about this reason? (see pic)
I cant be the only person to have noticed this? They even fold up the same way!
The Neo is the coolest looking trainer out there. They did a good job on the exterior design for sure.
Update: My Neo started off absolutely fine (see previous post), have done about 300k on it and its started to develop the same noise as Lee’s video here (link to youtube.com ). Maybe not as severe – yet. I have contacted Tacx and they have said (48hrs later) it needs to be returned. Given it took me 6/7 weeks to get the Neo from order and only arrived a week ago, little disappointed. My e-tailer has been excellent. They have none in stock, but will arrange for it to be switched, when more come available. In the meantime I will continue to use it and turn up the music as necessary.
Did you try to remove the Edco hub and grease the black ring and spacer inside?
I just got mine in, a little bit of gumboil noise when I turned the cranks by hand, disappeared for maybe the 1k I rode on swift to see if it was working. Very surprised by how quiet it truly is. I had the campy tool ($7 delivered) on hand, allen wrenches, and the vice whip.
Popped open the box, slapped the ultegra 11s cassette on “shim here” for the wide flange with no spacers, tightened the lockring to 40nm. Popped the other leg up and removed the axle holder, inserted the 135mm spacer, put the axle holder back on, stuck axle through, and I was up and running in about 5 minutes.
No rubbing on my disc brake (2015 Felt F1X), derailleur was perfectly trimmed from the start (retrimming DI2 resulted in exact same trim setting).
I will see what I run into tomorrow when I go for a longer ride, but as of now the only horror has been waiting for the unit to arrive here in Korea. I sold my Kickr when I was told 0-2 weeks in the middle of August and it’s now a good ways into November. The months without a trainer have been rough, especially here where air quality limits riding days. Compared to the KICKR I will have a lot more hours that I can ride this in my high-rise without getting the downstairs/upstairs neighbors all upset.
So far I am (finally) a happy camper…
Hi Steven, Out of interest, how do you know you tightened to 40nm ?
I used a torque wrench (beam style). I used the park BBT-5 on the cassette.
Did a 10k lap on zwift. On turning it on I think I heard the boiling kettle sound people describe, really quiet boiling kettle though — I think it was fans or something else because after the firmware update I didn’t hear it anymore on start. Did the firmware update, yes I had to turn off bluetooth a few times and turn it back on as per the instructions, but that was easy too. The trainer behaved well for the 10k — leagues quieter than the Kickr, there do seem to be slightly more vibrations (or maybe I just couldn’t notice the vibrations over the relative howl from the kickr) so hopefully those aren’t going into my neighbors apartment. Hopefully no one complains about me vibrating too much…
Here’s a video of the problem I’m having. It sounds like the welding issue with the magnets underneath the silver disc as described by Tacx Support in a couple of the comments above. I got the impression from the Tacx post that this problem was limited to early production only – I purchased my unit on Oct 21st from Evans Cycles UK.
link to 1drv.ms
Wow that sounds awful.
Just heard from Tacx. Mine is apparently the same issue as Andrews. Tacx sending a new edco hub at some point. I’m concerned though that his wasn’t resolved by it. I hope I’m not being given the run around.
@Andrew – How long did the replacement take to arrive?
Delivery took 2 days. If you ask TACX they will give you the tracking code so you can see when it’s arrived in the UK and out for delivery.
In my experience to solve the gumball issue the hub needs to be very well greased and you need to make sure the black ring is inside the hub when you fit it, don’t put the ring on the axle and then the hub over it after.
The hub they sent was incompatible with my Neo and I’m currently back using the one that came with it.
Ok thanks. My problem is more that the device doesn’t spin/freewheel. I think this causes the clanging noise and vibrations because I’m pulling the cassette around each time with no give.
Hard to tell without swapping out. AFAIK you are the only person here to be supplied with a Neo and non-working freewheel. It shows that there’s no testing once the hub is fitted or this would have been picked up.
Fingers crossed the new one solves your problem.
Thanks for the review DC!
After reading this, I bought the Neo to replace my Computrainer. Looks cool and very silent for a trainer indeed.
But now I just need to figure out how to get my training data to TrainingPeaks.
I paired it with my Garmin Fenix3 but the signal gets lost a lot. Also the distance is not covered. So only wattage and cadence gets transferred. I contacted Garmin but they told me they don’t support other products than their owns.
I’m still waiting for Tacx to reply. Probably they will blame it on Garmin! ;-)
I also don’t want to pay a monthly fee for an app after buying an allready expensive trainer.
Next up I’ll do some testing with my Garmin Edge 810.
So if anyone knows a simple solution for the Neo to work with TrainingPeaks, please let me know!
Thanks!
Hmm, I haven’t had any distance problems on a bunch of Edge devices (and an Epix) to NEO, but haven’t tried the Fenix3.
That said, the body is a tough thing for signals to get around, and sometimes in indoor environments things bounce weird. Have you tried putting it on your bike instead of your wrist? That said, super-odd that the other two signals would make it but not power. That almost sounds like a Fenix3 droppage issue actually, may want to soft-reset the unit just to be sure.
As for apps, it’s gonna be thin pickings for non-recurring fee apps. The coupon code you have in your box for the Tacx app is one option, and I believe that Peripedal is also one-time fee. Not sure of any other ANT+ FE-C ones out there that aren’t recurring though.
@Pascal, if you are a Premium Strava member then the new liason with Zwift means you get 2 months of the later for free (every year). Well worth a try and has the training modules now available to use (officially in Beta) which will be greatly fleshed out in the medium term.
In fact technically the whole of Zwift is still in Beta (and therefore free). But not for long.
Thanks for the reply.
When I start using the trainer, my watch goes from ‘power and caddence sensor connected’ to disconnected and then a couple of times back and forth.
I did a total reset on my Fenix last week (don’t get me started on that one :-) ). But next time I do the soft reset as you suggested.
For the app: I don’t need the fancy virtual racing options, just want to transfer data to TP. Controlling the Neo works fine with the native app. So when I’m back home, I’ll try the Edge 810.
Bye and thanks again!
You might like an app like trainer road or perfpro — they can log away or even run workouts for you that work pretty well and direct upload to training peaks.
Hey Ray, Problem solved! It was a speed/cadence sensor from Garmin still attached to the bike. After removing all was good! I guess it conflicted with the speed/cadence signal comming from the Neo.
Ray,
Thanks for your great review which gave me the confidence to purchase a Neo. I have been delighted with it with one exception. The speed that is reported through the Tacx training app is about 5mph lower than expected. Any idea why this would be?
Cheers!
Hmm, that’s tricky. Expected based on perceived effort, or compared to the same gearing/cadence as on another app.
Trainer speeds on resistance controlled trainers are incredibly variable. Meaning, I can (with the exact same wattage/effort) change the speed merely by changing gears, yet the NEO will compensate resistance for that and increase speed.
Ray,
A couple of examples. I did the same power based session last week and this week only one was on the road and the other the Neo. Yes there could be differences like fatigue, but the road ride was 5mph faster. Another example this morning, I was doing intervals of 230W at 80rpm and 175W at 100rpm yet the Tacx app was telling me I was going faster at the lower wattage!
Yup, totally normal.
See, your cadence changed, which means the wheel speed changed (increased), while the resistance is changed by the unit behind the scenes.
For example, all of these can result in precisely the same speed:
A) 200w @ 95RPM in Gearing X
B) 200w @ 120RPM in Gearing Y
C) 400w @ 95RPM in Gearing X
D) 600w @ 120RPM in Gearing Y
Crazy, huh?
Hi all,
Well I ordered a Neo on the basis of DC’s review a few weeks ago (12th October), delivery should have been a week later, but there were fewer Neo units available from the UK distributor than had been predicted. Hence, I had to wait for the next batch, and it finally arrived with me a couple of days ago.
First, and most importantly, I’m pleased to say that it is working perfectly. On first start, there was a fairly noticeable hissing sort of noise, a bit like central heating pipes when there is a bit of air in the system. I did the firmware update, and this went perfectly, but the noise persisted.
I then turned it off for the night, and next day, noise had gone. Not sure if that is related to a new restart after firmware update….OR simply some kind of burn-in of components which occurs over first couple of hours. NOTE : I had not ridden the unit at all at this point.
When riding, the unit is about as quiet as I’d expected, certainly no “gum ball” or “sawbone” type noises/vibrations.
Interestingly, the packaging box had been re-opened at the Tacx factory as both clear sealing stickers had been peeled back and replaced, whereas the outer shipping packaging box was stil sealed and had labels from Tacx to the UK distributor on it,
Also interestingly, there was quite a liberal amount of “spray lube/oil” on the metal discs of the unit. I wonder if the whole unit was lubed, as well as the Edco freehub, at the factory on this batch prior to shipping?
Anyway, all good with mine, just to balance the numbers a bit!
Ben
Ben Kay
Where did you order your Neo from?
Slane Cycles
Northern Ireland based, but snagged it at £949 which was the cheapest price I could find anywhere. They were very good on comms about the delay.
Thanks. I had a pre-order at similar price from someone else but they failed to get reasonable allocations from Fisher.
The knock on effect to the Neo’s teething issues is that the Wahoo Kickr is now out of stock in the UK too. Had cancelled my Neo pre-order hoping to jump ship to the Kickr.
Now it’s plan C; air cycling on my back with bricks duct-taped to my trainers and bungee cords to the ceiling.
I was told that Fisher are bringing in a couple of thousand units next week. Whether thats true or not……..
I would have a really hard time believing and distributor is getting ‘thousands’ of units of anything Tacx except for water bottles. That’s just so far and above any numbers Tacx has ever talked about or that distributors ever get in one shot. ;)
(Just to be clear, not shooting the messenger, just the message.)
Could it be that the Neo becomes widely available before the Kickr comes back? Last week they were expecting a huge consignment but they didn’t arrive so I am not too optimistic. My concern would be switching back to the Neo and still getting one of the early problematic ones. There is still stock in the UK at the moment but hard to know when it arrived.
my neo seems to under report wattage by about 50 watts compared to the stages on the bike when using erg mode on trainerroad.
or of course it could be that the stages over reports it….
I Big thank you to DC and everybody else that participate on this forum. I started in 2006 with TACX fortius and had my fair share of troubleshooting and sometimes came close to murdering the equipment with a 4 pound hammer.
But I persisted, bought the i-Genius Multiplayer in 2014 and it was good and as the software came out it got better, find the climbing improved a lot, well at least for me, as we know that is not always the case.
Was very much interested in the new Neo, but because of this forum/thread I am waiting and sided with the later adopters, I hope a speedy recovery or should I say a eventual fix to your problem.
Tacx need to realize that for many of us this piece of equipment is not a toy, rather it is part of an vital step and process in our fitness regime. I also started getting noises on my Genius, so loud that I need to put in ear plugs and as it is out of warranty, I now have to try to fix it and no documentation on how to replace bearings. ….anybody out there ever tried to do bearing on genius (left side should be easy, but right side without is a problem, so now I am not back on my 2006 fortius still going strong and not as noisy.
Thanks again to everyone.
was suppose to say
“so now I am back on my 2006 fortius still going strong and not as noisy.”
That´s the Sound of my Neo:
link to youtu.be
Same noise as mine also !!
Welcome to the “sawbone-club” !!!
Should I say “thanks” ? No, I´m not happy to be in this Club ;-(
Info: the edco is greased and the chain / cassette are both 4.000km in usage.
I watched 1 minute from Ray’s “most boring Video” link to youtube.com
From second 25 to 43 i am hearing that sawbone noise!
I have a new cassette and a new chain, gears perfectly indexed on the trainer (I got a dedicated Indoor bike) – so it’s not that – and as posted before: I have tried 3 completely different bikes on it – same result. As soon as I’m back home, I’ll send it in for repair. Hope I’ll get it back quickly then.
link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
True indeed. Ray’ll put up with a large amount it seems ;-)
I think it’s funnier that videos been there a week and nobody else noticed or said anything (including me, never heard that sound), some 1,700 people.
I turn up my speakers (albeit laptop) and can barely hear it, and it appears only for those few seconds – I think I’m accelerating then, but not sure. I guess I’m just wondering at what point it’s becoming a case of recording/imagination issues.
In other words, if that’s the sound folks are complaining about, when I sit on the bike – I just don’t hear anything I’m concerned about. Maybe I’m missing it, but that faint change in tone is far outweighed by the shift of clicking.
Hi Sean, can you please send us a mail on this support@tacx.com with this link.
Lee, did you get feedback from Tacx on your issue. I saw a mail coming by but it was not clear to me. I know you reported it, but i personally did not see it. Do you have that ticket ID number
Already did that (Ticket#1082226) and got a reply, but could not act on it yet, because I’m on a business trip until the 11th.
Anyway, I’ll send it once more (it’s 2 files – this version and the extended version).
I did notice you had that sound when I watched the vid because I was wondering if the similar sound coming from my own Neo was normal or not. It does seem that it is worse for some people though. It’s pretty hard to say how silent we can realistically expect the Neo to be, but Tacx claims the chain is louder, and it is then easy to interpret that with a clean chain/cassette and arbitrary power in mind. IMO that’s simply not the case.
Hi Tacx. Turns out the mailserver you use ended up on the Barracuda spam blocklist!! Since a lot of people use Barracuda appliances for mail filtering I guess a lot of people haven’t been receiving anything from you :)
Neo tickets – doesn’t matter now, all 3 Neo units returned and refunded.
My licensing ticket – I’ve been sent some instructions/keys to try and rectify the issue, thanks :)
@Ray – Have to admit that I listened to your earlier videos (in the cave and the trailer) but when I already had the Neo + you posted that your new one was perfect + the title of “most boring video” I skipped. ;-)
The Bonesawing I don’t really hear, that’s not what annoys me. I can feel it. On my “almost there” Neo-1 it’s annoying, but ridable. On the 2nd Neo it’s horrendous, unridable and very much audible.
The sawing feels like a rubbing. So it also makes me think that whatever it is will either be reducing the life of the chain, the Neo or Both. And the last thing we want is a unit that fails / gets worse as it approaches / ends it warranty.
I suspect your bonesawwing is much more vibrant than the very faint noise I (and you on my video, I think) can barely here for only a few seconds if I silence everything and turn up my speakers. :)
For me, I just don’t feel it. I do agree it’d be good to know more details. Tacx sent over some clarification on the various NEO items this morning, which in a nutshell mostly go towards QA type stuff like we all expected (on very early units). They re-iterated that if customers have problems they should work with support to get them sorted out. They believe the QA type problems impact less than 2% of units shipped to date, but that they themselves noted that’s still an unacceptable level.
This goes back to my point though that
a) some users will have low mechanical knowledge, their drivetrain may mask neo issues
b) some simply won’t know that the noise/vibration is not normal and suffer in silence. Or not ;-)
indeed some might just think its a running-in thing, or its their bike. So that 2% will be higher I am sure.
I agree with Lee. It’s hard to believe that if 98% of Neo’s were perfect that I’d get one with a serious clanging issue from the first batch and then get a totally unusable one from a later batch (delivered directly from TACX). And that I’d recieve an EDCO hub for the 1st Neo that wouldn’t freewheel when fitted. I can also understand how many people would be living with mild bone-sawing or just accepting the gumball.
I know this math isn’t perfect, but as an approximation. If the failure rate is 2% then the chances of getting 2 failures from 2 different batches = 0.04%. Or 1 in 2,500. Possible… But then I’m not the only person to recieve 2 bad Neo’s and there are some that have recieved 3 (to which the odds are ridiculous).
Tonight I have an expert coming over to check my setup top to bottom. I’m absolutely hoping that he finds something that explains / resolves the remaining issue.
To be clear, I do agree that 2% sounds optimistic on earlier units. It may be 0% now, but perhaps higher % earlier.
Bought a Neo today. Is this sound normal, link to youtube: link to youtu.be
Unfortunately your unit seemed to be defective in the same manner as mine: link to 1drv.ms
I contacted Tacx Support and they told me to return it to the shop where I bought it for exchange.
What could that loud metallic ‘clonk’ sound in Mikaels vid come from anyway? I hear that on my own Neo when I manually rotate the disc, but I thought it was normal.
I recently sold my Kickr, and bought this broken Neo. BIG misstake. Miss my Kickr which has been working perfectly.
I sold my Genius and bought the Neo after coming very close to getting a Kickr. Ugh.
Hey, I’m happy to moan about a product if it’s not doing what it should, or has made some promises that perhaps it hasn’t fully delivered on yet, but lets not forget that a working Neo is an awesome trainer.
Shame then that they are rarer than seeing Elvis riding Shergar.
Got my second Neo – this time the “bone saw / vibration” has gone. Very quiet… but I now have the gumball issue at random cadences. I’m not prepared to get my hands dirty and grease the EDCO hub so its goodbye Tacx from me – now to work on the refund process.
Dont do it! So many people would do anything to just have gumballing. If you lived in Boston/Providence I’d help you out, looks like a real easy job and honestly, even if it didnt gumball at the beginning it’s something youd probably have to do for regular maintenance anyway, yearly or so. Be brave– you can do it! Keep that Neo!
Jase
I do believe that models in the field could have this because of the greasing. It is indeed 5 minutes work and please… send us a mail so we can help out and compensate you in any. I do believe that this should not be something to return the system.
@Jase. I too would recommend that you try the “fix”. It’s far easier than the hassle of returning the Neo and it seems to carry a very high success rate in fixing the gumball issue.
Agree with those who have already mentioned you should try greasing the hub before trying to get a refund. It is much easier than installing the cassette.
Is anyone using an 11 speed block and able to use the top cog? I have Campagnolo 11s installed and cannot use the top cog because the rear derailleur backplate rubs the flywheel…
@Chris. I’m using an 11-speed Shimano 105 cassette and I can use the top cog. The RD is very close to the Neo, but not touching.
So just to be sure you are using a Shimano 105 cassette with Campy? Or you are using Shimano 105 complete group.. Im guessing the design of the Shimano 105 rear derailleur is narrower than the campy so its giving you some extra clearance.. the back plate of the campy is pretty beefy… Someone on the tacx forum is also having the same issue as me with Campy… :(
Hi Chris,
this looks like your derailleur is not in straight line so then it will hit the neo (you can see that). So this is a setup of your bike
Campagnolo rear derailleurs have an inherent twist to them, so the jockey wheels are not in perfect alignment with the cog.. if you look at a Campagnolo rear derailleur from the behind the bike, even though the top pulley wheel is in alignment with the cog, the rear bottom pulley will look like its bent inward… I have tried 3 bikes on my trainer with Campy 11s, and all experience the same issue…Using a Campagnolo Record 11-25 or 11-27 block… I seem to be the only Campag user around so far.. the Shimano guys dont seem to be having a problem as it seems the Shimano rear derailleurs dont have this inherent twist..
I agree with you Chris. I have a Colnago M10 with Campy Chorus 11 and it has a twist as you said. I think Tacx Support need to get their facts straight. Pun intended.
I bought my Neo from Evans just over a week ago, mainly as there’s a shop nearby in case I need to take it back. However, after building a new trainer bike to go with it, it appears to be silent. That is even with my novice attempts at derailleur/chain/indexing adjustment. The serial number is around 1290. I haven’t bothered to look into the firmware version yet, I don’t have an Apple phone handy and at my level of ability its not going to make much difference, I shall wait for the droid version has been delivered and tested first.
The Edco plastic bushing only had the merest sign of grease so I greased that up while installing the cassette before I fired her up.
It is early days as I have only done one fitness test on TTS4 since getting it up and running. I will try Trainerroad later. I’m using a Lenovo i7 yoga 13 laptop running Win10 in tablet mode on a nice solid music stand and it works a treat. The ant+ antenna that comes with the TTS4 upgrade found the trainer and handlebar control and my Wahoo Tickr heart monitor no problem.
Only issue was the TTS4 trainer calibration timed out so I just passed on that, I’m not sure that is relevant to the Neo. As I have only recently returned to exercise after a 10 year hiatus, when I can squeeze more than a few watts out of the skinny dangly bits hanging out of my shorts supposedly called legs I will look into the power side more. :)
Hi Andy, there will be a new version next week (TTS4.17) . That calibration is indeed not needed and will be removed from the software.
I do want to make a small comment, but this is social media and i know that you guys are also on the other forums explaining the experience you have had with the Neo.
The most issues we have seen unfortunate is with a non greased Edco module, which can be fixed on an easy way, even that we also agree that for the price of this product it should not happen. So report it with a sound to us.
Our factory (since the first report of Andrew) has changed this to prevent this from happening. The grinding noise sounds from Lee is under investigation (we did not get a model like this under investigation at our factory but working on that). So please if you believe there is a strange sound, also report it to us. (support@tacx.com), but the fall out reported at Tacx is lower then that 2%
Hi Hilko.
We can organise for my 2nd Neo to be returned anytime now. This has the “bone sawing” in a very pronounced way, so this should give you an ideal test dummy to investigate on. If I get any further information from tonights expert bike check I’ll let you know too.
Thanks for the help.
Hi Andrew
ok will send you the mail with the details. Thanks for this
(and from the fallout most is is related to the Edco greasing, or some situations the freewheel of it)
I appreciate that most of the issues, perhaps even all of them are related to the EDCO hub which TACX don’t even make, this must be galling. But as the most expensive trainer of it’s type on the market by a substantial margin it’s not unreasonable for customers to believe they are buying a product of a very high quality that’s been tested to a high standard along with all the core parts. Even that grease has been applied to all parts that need it.
There’s no doubt that a perfect Neo is a fantastic piece of kit which I wouldn’t swap for ANY other product on the market, however the issues experienced by many have removed a lot of confidence in it for those effected.
I’m absolutely hoping to get mine sorted fully so I can become one of the people raving about it, then all the startup issues can be put behind. There’s no doubt that when it works well it’s everything the advertising promised.
I see the reason for going with the EDCO, it only means one SKU of your product needs to be made. But it really does seem to be the weak spot. It’s noisy when freewheeling, has less engagement on the splines than a shimano/sram specific hub, doesn’t fit all campy hubs, and now all the other noise issues. Seems like EDCO snookered you.
Hi Andrew
Yes this is 100% true.
If you buy a car and the battary goes down within 1 month, The car manufacturer will also not say: he it is not our problem, because it is 3rd party device.
But that is why we are pushing for registration at our official channels, even if you fixed it yourself. We are not able to be everywhere and check every comment on social media, so registrations are very important.
Hilko
I see a rep from Tacx is posting here in comment section which I think is odd because they never, well almost never, respond in the Tacx user forums. This leads to suspicion. Why? As one who has had two Tacx trainers and followed almost every post in the user forums since their beginning, now you wonder why I would do that, I know that the owner base is also their beta testers for not so tested products. I have an interest in purchasing a new smart trainer because of the way training is going but I knew to wait and read reports about experiences with the NEO before jumping into the fire. It seems to me the NEO is the same old same old from Tacx. A bunch of promises but they rarely deliver. I’m still waiting for a fix of the video player sync issues which has been promised almost a year ago. Now they are promising an Andriod fix so you can update the NEO. I don’t see this ever coming. Tacx has been known to just drop the things they can’t fix. Don’t believe me, look for support on TTS 1, 2, & 3. The trainers are not accurate from a power stand point. Coaches don’t like them. And lately I’ve been saying that their offerings are just a toy, not a tool for making real improvements. You can’t even rely on the trainer working, software working, after you’ve taken the time to get dressed and jump on the bike for some workout time. I know it sounds like I have a vendetta against Tacx and it is probably because I do. I have fell victim to several bad software releases which cost me a lot of money and countless missed opportunities to train on my trainer which have hurt my performance level. After the last couple of weeks of reading the complaints about the NEO’s issues I know now to go with the Kickr. The quiet factor is not so important when I weigh the performance gains from being able to train or not. I would suggest that if you are considering the NEO you wait a bit longer and see if Tacx lives up to theirs promises. If you can’t wait and need to train then definitely choose something else.
Hi Chase R
People think we are hidding or do not reply on comments etc. Social media is everywhere, and indeed we cannot be everywhere. Our main communication line is our own FB, twitter or mail or phone, but we are checking Zwift, Trainerroad and other post on Social media related to this. Im not here for discussion if you are right or not (refering back to software or to bugs in the software, and yes in the past we have seen the issues). I’m just here because people have problems and need help. Im here so we also get the response and registration via our official channels. As mentioned in earlier post.
I guess I’m confused Chase. Tacx is here trying to help users that actually have the NEO and need assistance. You’re here basically throwing out a bunch of totally random things like a temper-tantrum. Non-accurate power support, for example – simply isn’t true. And support on TTS1? That’s 6+ years old now. Seems a pretty broad statement to say “Coaches hate them”. Yet, you don’t even have a NEO.
I guess I’ve got no problems with folks talking about issues they have. But when it bridges into just sorta making up stuff, it’s a bit harder to pretend it’s all fine.
Also, on forums – most companies actually don’t respond in their own *user* forums. Polar, Garmin (limited), Suunto, Apple – none respond. Logical, no, but just pointing that out. But if you want to bash Tacx for trying to support users…well…shrug.
Not having a temper-tantrum, I’m well beyond that. And I don’t like being called a liar. The facts are posted in the Tacx User Forums in black and white for everyone to read. I only wish to warn consumers mainly here in America that Tacx is a company that produces poor trainers and software. And they don’t refund software which was the case for me. You imply TTS1 software doesn’t have support because of it’s age, when the truth is it was dropped because it didn’t work. Same for TTS2 which is why people had to pay yet again for TTS3. TTS3 works for some but Tacx now has TTS4 which still has issues but can be used as a toy for enjoyment. Try training using VR Valeggio terrain and you’ll instantly see what I’m talking about. Try using RLV videos and you see the sync issues. Yea I’m mad about the amount of money I spent and what I actually got for it. A lot of missed training time and more time troubleshooting problems. Support is weak if you are lucky enough to get it. It’s been rare in my case and their English is hard to comprehend. So you see, I’m not here to throw a tantrum, I am one consumer reporting to other consumers to beware, it’s likely you will get burnt. The NEO is very expensive and it appears to have problems already. I think if that Tacx rep was here to help he would also be watching and posting in their own forums where people are constantly begging them to comment. I think he is just here fishing.
So to summarize:
You’re upset because you didn’t get support years ago on something. But now you’re upset because Tacx is trying to actually help people here (and doing quite a bit of that both on these posts and behind the scenes direct to people).
As for Tacx software, again, if you read what I’ve written – I actually don’t recommend folks buy the TTS suite. Far from it. I’d never recommend a Tacx trainer if you couldn’t use it with 3rd party apps. Which also is a good time to remind you that you need not purchase any Tacx software to use the NEO.
As for Tacx support in years past – it’s something I’ve talked about extensively in past posts, but things largely have seemed to change. I think it’s fair to give them credit for that. It would seem sorta dishonest not to, no?
Here we go again. I’m beyond being upset now. It’s past. But to be clear about things it was more recent than years ago that I had problems with Tacx Support. It was last years Winter training season which is when people usually use their trainers. I don’t need or use a trainer in the warmer months. The VR had a drafting issue that made cycling harder if you entered that zone when riding against opponents. This took Tacx months to fix. And the other issue was the avatar leaving the road and not being able to steer back on coarse until the ride would crash. Tacx support did eventually communicate but the answer was they did not know how this could happen. So pretty much I cannot depend on using the trainer to complete a workout. My last years training had to be done outdoors in the cold. Here we are now and the winter training season is among us and so I’m looking for a new trainer. Based on what I’m reading here it won’t be the NEO. To give Tacx credit for doing a better job well for some people the experience hasn’t changed. I have heard some say that Tacx has responded better for them but still slow. Lets see how long it takes them to solve the Android users issue.
Chase R, all what you are telling us, you might forget that there are people like me, having no problems with the new NEO. And I think I can say, with almost 100 hours of Riding in two months I am a mid range to heavy NEO user… I am slightly over 2700km in Zwift + some TR Session all done with the NEO.
I do not own TTS or use any of the Tacx Apps, because for me there is no need to. Zwift, TR or Virtualtraining, BKOOL, Perf Pro… a lot of APPs and Software out there is already working with the NEO! Some Apps like TR might need a little bit of improvement, but they are working!
And what does sound ridiculous to me, is the fact, that you blame your VR giving you a drafting issue. Sorry, but this does not sound to me that you riding for serious training. If you use your Trainer for that kind of, you just care about your watts, cadence and heartrate! Not following a Virtual Rider in his draft saving some wattage to beat him in a sprint or on a climb… What a software is giving you in speed or draft counts NILL… You just do the watts and this is what counts and gives you performance…
The good thing is, the market is giving us opportunities. You can choose a Kickr, a Neo, o Turbo Muin, for me wich I am a Rider for more then 20 years, this is heaven came true…
I will go to my basement and show you on what I was training with for more then 10 years from the early 90s!
I never said I was using VR to train. VR and multiplayer were things I use to enjoy for fun with other riders, which have all quit using the multiplayer. I would like that option to make a comeback but I guess Zwift is the only option now. Not as much of a fan for Zwift because of the maps. I am still using the Fortius machine with the old Fortius software at times but it is just to ride some of the RLV videos I like.
That is ecaxtly what I thought. I loved to ride Sufferfest Videos while I was doing my Intervalls. But Zwift was really a game changer for me…
I would not say that I am addicted, but time flies by like it never did in any indoor training I did before…
And I am not the only one: link to blog.strava.com
Can anyone help me out plz?
Im having problems with the powermeter .
My stages power reading is always displaying higher wattage than the neo.
Its around 50w higher.
Thats really a big issue for me , i cant train my zones like this, and my ftp test would be worthless.
I normally dont use the bike with the stages on the neo , so thats no solution :(
Any else encounter this ?
Tacx support is looking into factory calibration numbers for me.
I assume you don’t have a third power meter available so it will be a bit tough to tell whether it’s the power from the Stages or Neo that’s off, or possibly both. I compared power data files from a couple of my rides and the Stages and Neo agree very well. Any difference was typically within 2%, sometimes higher but that could very well be due to left/right unbalance not captured by the Stages.
That would be ideal, but dont have a third :(
I just felt way off to start with because ive been used to the the Stages data .
I suppose it could be the stages that is off , but it always felt correct in relation to speed and feel .
If it’s always a certain number or percentage off—then you can quite easily use it for power training. You really don’t know which is off (or which accounts for which part of the difference) since the stages isn’t the perfect power meter to begin with. Ride your stages on the neo at different power levels (0-500W let’s say at 50 W intervals) and record the difference, you now have your translator between the two.
How do you read your power out of the neo? app, head unit etc?
There could be a flaw there. i haven’t noticed any problems with this
Meassured on TTS software and Garmin 510
Both the neo and stages .
So I can be sure its not the device or the software.
Hi all,
A little post to update the group. I have been the owner of a neo since beg. Of October. What started as a smooth and silent Neo, became more and more noisy (clicking, vibrating, etc.) but nothing very serious so I just didn’t pay much attention to it and continued using it. This morning, little surprise…the Neo doesn’t freewheel anymore!!!! Last training sesh was Thursday and I haven’t touched the Neo since then!!! I guess the EDCO is dead! Thank you Tacx! Will submit a ticket with their support team! It is quite unacceptable that so many people have problems with this trainer and no Ray, I don’t agree with what you said, this is not something that seems to be marginal. It looks like Tacx are having serious design and quality control problems, plain and simple!
Update: if you use an allen key and untighten the black screw than holds the EDCO against the axle, it starts freewheeling again, so the EDCO is definitely dead. 1 month of use 2-3x a week and that’s it, great!
Link to the video: link to youtu.be
hi guys; another tacx user here. And the lucky one – touch wood – everything is in order everything works. A few questions if you dont mind:
– gumballing – what is it? sorry never heard it
– i do get a bit of a hissing noise when i turn on the trainer (ie plug in) – does it need to be turned off after training – i do it now because it seems it ‘remembers’ the last resistance level; so this way i am resetting it
– i do find the unit is getting very hot during workouts – i am living in tropical climate – so i do use fan at the back since my kurt kinetic days however when once i didn’t you could actually smell the plastics. is it normal?
– on the subject of the firmware update – do you guys find the resistance level is too hard? seen some comments to this effect
– and lastly when is the firmware update coming to android users?
Well Campagnolo 10s 53X39, and a 12-26 block, and we are in business… have clearance on the top pulley from the flywheel and bottom pulley for the frame of the trainer.. not alot, but its there and I don’t have to worry about the derailleur making contact… I think my routine maintenance is going to be to every 10 days grease the freehub sleeve.. really for what its worth, you don’t even need to take the cassette off… mine has been quiet but I greased it lastnite for poops n giggles… wasn’t much grease in mine at all.. My drivetrain seems to be in much better alignment now with the 10s and no chatter or extrme chainangles I was experiencing with 11s… I guess 10s still does have its place!! :)
you mean to unscrew the axlenut? no need to take casette off?
They are just end caps… the system is not like a mavic road wheel where the axle needs to be pulled to get the freehub off… simply put in a 5mm allenkey and turn the end cap off… the freehub will just pull straight out! I had my cassette off already as I was changing to 10s, but aside from maybe making it easier to squeeze the pawls in so it fits there is no need to remove the cogs at all…
I’m really in two minds on what to do. Have a Tacx Fortius which I bought in 2009 and had less amounts of issues with software which cost me much training time. Thankfully, it’s been performing solidly the last 18 months. I use my power2max power meter for power and cadence data via ANT+ to Trainer Road or Zwift, but I’ve reached the point where I want ergomode. And I like the idea of a direct drive trainer, so will decide to purchase in the next few days either a Tacx Neo or a Wahoo Kickr (not finding that in stock in many places though).
Based in Dublin, Ireland and so will order internationally. I’m tempted to opt for the Neo as I like the idea of being able to use it unplugged before races/time-trials, and the lower noise level. And while I know the errors reported here may give a disproportionately high impression of the real issue rate, it is naturally a concern to see these issues. Delivery and return costs would be significant for me sending it back for repair from Ireland – if I had assurance from Tacx I would not be left out of pocket if I had to send it back, I would probably opt for the Neo, but not sure if that assurance will be possible to obtain.
Last concern would be ergo mode with Trainer Road – I plan to use it for several short duration high intensity intervals on Trainer Road, and if there’s a lag issue which won’t be solved within a matter of weeks, that would swing it towards a Kickr for me….looks like German etailers would be the option in that case at this point in time
Just got my NEO, S/N is 2704. The firmware was not the latest so I updated it with the Tacx utility app, it worked fine, no issue.
I then did a very brief first test. Beside the noise of the chain and the hum from the unit, I neither hear weird noises, nor feel annoying vibrations. At this stage, my NEO looks ok.
Weekend Update.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I had my LBS owner come over late on Friday to check the bike thoroughly and there no issues to report, everything was setup and indexed correctly. He was pretty impressed overall with the Neo, but confirmed that the “rubbing noises” I still have were definitely from the unit and not caused by any bike setup. I had a good ride on Zwift yesterday and it seems 8/10 to me.
Today I got Charlotte to sit on the bike and pedal whilst I took a couple of recordings. They are at lower wattage’s, but it only gets worse with more power. These were taken with the phone approximately 2ft from the Neo / cassette.
At 100w link to youtu.be
At 150w link to youtu.be
I also noticed that at lower wattage the cadence was all over the place. Whilst she was pedaling @ a steady 70-80rpm the numbers in Zwift were bouncing between 60 & 140 whilst being mostly in the range of 120-140. I’ve not noticed this myself whilst riding, but I rarely look at the cadence and are always running with more power, so not sure how much to take from this.
I’ve sent the recordings to TACX too, so will look forward to their opinion tomorrow.
In short, sounds shit. The only opinion that anyone could possibly have is “knackered, return to sender”.
As for the cadence, I never had an issue with mine. What I will say however is that at low wattages you do start to see irregularities with all trainers.
a) Generally, I think its that power inaccuracy is accepted at low wattages; certainly in terms of crank based power meters which measure strain at the metal level, it all gets a bit tricky :)
b) The KICKR has such good inertia that at very low wattage the inertia of the flywheel can sometimes “overtake” your pedalling such that the reported power drops out for a minute. Nothing wrong/inaccurate, its just that – your power wasn’t needed on that pedal revolution, the flywheel was going faster anyway
c) Consider the Neo works out cadence by measuring power around the circle and assuming that the downstroke will deliver most power, therefore by counting the downstrokes, you have cadence. Now think about what I said about the kickr, where power drops out, think also about the fact that if little power is being delivered it might be harder to identify the downstroke. In addition, if a rider had a good “scrape and pull up” technique, then at low wattage there might not even be a bigger downstroke, it might be almost near perfect 100% power around the circle.
Essentially, I’d make the sweeping statement that (for blokes at least), its unlikely that someone who spends over £1k on a trainer isn’t capable of delivering more than 150W all the time and all these problems disappear over 100W – 150W. If you can’t generate much power at all, why did you buy the Neo ;-) would be my first retort :)
Having said all that, my son (8yrs old) rode the Neo round Zwift island a few times and even at his very low wattage, had no issues with cadence reporting, so certainly it looks like the unit is capable of working it out. Blame Charlotte, tell her its all her fault and she has to stay in next time for the Neo collection/return :)
@Lee. lol. I will pass that information on to her later ?
Your main points make perfect sense and the fact she may have been travelling slightly downhill during the worst inaccuracy bears that out. Going uphill she was applying 140w+ and the cadence was working fine. I don’t think this is a big issue, just bringing it up whilst on the general topic.
Judging by your comment on the videos you too feel this isn’t the way it’s meant to be. Although you can’t hear this as clearly cycling as you can from the video taken near to the Neo you can feel it. And I have 2 worries.
1) It’s now 8/10, but for well over £1,000 I feel it should be 10/10. I will always know / suspect it’s not quite right.
2) This is a rubbing noise and that suggests it could rub until it causes a bigger issue or it could just carry on getting worse. Which also doesn’t breed confidence.
Will wait to hear TACXs thoughts tomorrow.
Andrew (UK) – I had the exact same noise on my first Neo and Tacx decided when they reviewed the sound clips that it needed a replacement. A simple process of the LBS organising collection from my house and shipping direct to Fisher Outdoor and the replacement Neo direct to me (took about 6 working days). I don’t think its power related but more rotational speed related – use a 50-12 gear combo and get the cadence to about 90/95 and that noise should disappear regardless of the power.
I’m unlucky to receive a 2nd knackered Neo but I have decided to wait 6 months or so for the majority of issues to be fixed. I was nearly swayed by the positive comments on this blog and the compensatory offers by Tacx but I have to accept the realism that a c£1000 trainer should be mechanically perfect and have an expectation that the firmware/software will catch up later… but in this case it looks like both are lacking.
I would like to point out that Tacx support have been excellent in all aspects of issues so if you feel you want to persevere and get an awesome NEO then I’m positive they’ll sort it eventually.
@Jase. Sorry to hear that you too have received a 2nd broken Neo. Yet more evidence that there are still issues and these are still significant. I can understand why you’ve given in for now and decided to wait, I’m not sure what to do next either. On one hand I want to keep trying because I really want a Neo that works, it’s the holy grail. But on the other hand I’ve had 2 already, delivery / collection is very hard to organise and I have no confidence at all that another unit would be issue free. Every time TACX sent out a new one you are simply joining the lottery.
As you say, TACX have been very good. They are genuinely helpful and trying to resolve my issues. Responses are quick and they are listening to the recordings I’ve taken / trying to resolve. They must be very frustrated with all these issues too.
Finally. If the issues are with the EDCO hub then it doesn’t breed confidence. In this case the chances are that you’ll either have issues straight away or that they will develop later. And (as you say) this could take months to diagnose and resolve.
Andrew,
I just bought a brand new Neo from Starbike.com in Germany. I am in the U.S. Received it just yesterday. And of course, I have a metallic clanging sound. Lucky me. Tacx says I have to go through the retailer in Germany, but I don’t want to ship back. Could you tell me how you finally resolved your situation? Would you be willing to take listen to my sound file? Any help would be appreciated. Does it sound like yours?
Ray, you would like to add another review in your Winter Trainer Recommends?
Have a look at my italian stallion from the early 90s.
You want that for your dcr museum?
:-)
Holy cow. No, The Girl would kill me if I add any more trainers right now.
I’ve already outgrown the ‘new’ DCR Cave and associated storage space. :-/
Wise choice, cause this is for real riders… :-) Only 5-gears, no gumball or sawbone…
All you need are two legs and a bike with a saddle…
But you would be surprised how silent this thing was…
Not slopy and the wattage was set by cable…
I may will give him a little service check up and make a little video.
I greased my hub on the Neo and now questioning the gap between flywheel and hub. Also I don’t see how the hub could go in any further. Can someone confirm that this is indeed correct assembled?
Looks correct to me :)
Looks like it shoud! I have also a gap… Can’t see exactly if it is the same size, cause my cassette is mounted… But I def. have a little gap too…
Thx.
I just got thrown off by it, but then measured the depth of the body and the ratchet.
Maybe I should have just paid more attention when I was taking it apart to make sure it looks identical after.
@ Tacx Support: Can you please comment on my post #1036
thanks
The retailer I got my Neo from arranged collection this morning, so theyll have it tomorrow and, I assume, ship to Fisher for Weds/Thurs.
I have been told 5-10 working days turnaround so will not pester them until the 11th working day.
My FTP builder will have to wait for a while, but if I get a silent Neo back then great. Will update here as and when.
Remind me Adam, which issue is yours being returned because of ?
generally considered the sawbone issue I think :)
I really hope you get your trainer back in that time frame, I was 6 weeks without a trainer when my Vortex was playing up and it came back with the same faults.
That’s worrying. I work for a law firm so if the process becomes too strung out ill have to have a chat with someone to see at what point I’m able to exercise some consumer rights and just force a refund/rebuy a different trainer from elsewhere.
Still. I’m being naively optimistic instead!
It looks like the edco units are the problem. I would trie to replace the edco instead of sending the unit. 5 minutes work and your trainer is good to go.
Pretty sure it’s NOT the free hub with the saw one issue. As has been demonstrated in this thread a few times, you need to put lateral pressure on the spinning metal cover to reduced the noise.
Hello Guys/Gals,
Update from me.
My problems are documented earlier in the thread but brief overview is back hub not spinning/freewheeling, vibrations throughout bike, generally not sounding good.
I reported it to Tacx last Monday, received a response on Wednesday which was advice to replace the edcomodule. Tacx sent a new module on Thursday and it arrived today (following Monday).
No instructions were given with the edcomodule. It literally just turned up in a plastic bag in a box, no other information. I’m not very mechanically minded but can do the few bits of basic maintenance that I need to and so managed to work out how to fit the new edcomodule in about five minutes. Very easy job but still would have been nice to have some instruction.
Tried it very quickly and now the hub does freewheel! So it looks as though the edcomodule was the problem. It sounds as I would expect the device to sound (very quiet). I will give it a proper go tomorrow with TR and report back. Fingers crossed it may be fixed.
That’s good news. I hope your longer test tomorrow works out fine. Maybe you saved some of us from sending the unit in. Such an easy fix would be great. Thanx for keeping us posted.
Why has Ray not reviewed this yet?
I’m waiting on the full review before I decide to purchase.
Usually the reviews are done before we can buy. But the Neo has been on sale now for around 6 weeks.
There’s only so many hours in the day and so many devices to review. I iterate through them as best as possible, typically based on when companies get me final production units. In this case that was roughly back in mid-October or so that a final-final unit came with the updated firmware that others are running. Trainers are quite honestly the toughest to ‘order’ in the review queue because I can only ride one trainer per workout. Whereas a GPS watch/power meter/etc, I can multi-task 3-4 at once. In the case of the last few weeks, I’ve also had other trainers come in that warranted looking at ahead of my trainer guide. Like most triathletes, I basically alternate riding and running each day. Sometimes if I’m really bored I’ll swim.
Sale listing date isn’t of much value to me, since I like to work with final products/software for any in-depth reviews.
I could put out a review now, based on my experience – but I’m actually kinda just watching things a bit here in the comments a bit to see how they play out. I’m not sure my review would honestly say anything different than what I’ve covered in the comments or post at this point. For me my hardware works fine, so it really comes down the price and noise value – of which I talked about a bit in my trainer guide last week.
Lastly, I suspect I won’t do a straight NEO review, but am instead working towards a combo review of all the Tacx units at once. This is mostly because I’ve had the Bushido/Satori/Vortex Smart for a year, the Genius Smart since July, and the Neo in two different units since September. While the hardware is different, there’s also a lot of similarities on the software/app side that I can basically talk to 5 trainers with the review writing work of probably 2.5 trainers. Roughly.
Will you be doing an end of year turbo trainer review Ray? I am currently looking at upgrading mine. I was convinced I was going to go for the Kickr, but slightly tempted by the Elite Real Muin and to a lesser extent the Neo. It would be nice to hear which you’d pick out of the 3 of them.
Keep up the good!
Anth? And what is this?
link to dcrainmaker.com
Cheers Ray.
I was wanted what you had to say about the consistency of the power output, compared to trusted power meters.
I’m not that happy with my Kickr power accuracy.
I could add an external power source and use that, but:
a) Would only work with TrainerRoad I believe – and not Zwift
b) Could be more cost effective to buy the Neo and sell the Kickr
A) Zwift has noted they are investigating adding it
B) Probably depends on country
Fwiw, PerfPro also supports such an option, and I think someone else I can’t remember off-hand (Veloreality?).
That said, for KICKR accuracy – be sure you’re on the absolute latest firmware, and also ensure you’re doing a spin-down (10-15mins in). Also, if you’re see really odd stuff, you may want to have them reset the optical sensor (you can do it yourself, just need their instructions). And finally, they also have loaner calibration kits too you can get.
As an FYI to those who bought NEO’s through Clever Training, they received a bunch of pallets today of NEO’s, covering all existing back-orders and with a small handful leftover for any new orders.
The pallets came in pretty late in the day, so I’m not sure off-hand if any made the local shipping pickup time cutoffs or not – but either way they’ll all go out tomorrow.
Cheers.
I’ve been following this thread from the beginning and finally jumped on board tonight ordering through Clever Training. ALL FINGERS CROSSED! I’ll report back with how one off these pallets fairs.
People getting new batch Neo’s please update with your results. I am very close to cancelling my Neo pre-order and getting a Kickr instead. Silence is very valuable to me, but having a working trainer is even more valuable……
So i have a whistling noise on my Neo.
Pre recommended lube:
link to youtu.be
Post recommended lube:
link to youtu.be
Not any different and surely not right?
From what I understand that noise comes from air that is being pushed through somewhere at the spinning disc. Typically it goes away if you change your cadence or shift up and down.
Hi all
I’ve followed this thread from the start, thank you all for sharing your experiences. My Neo ships to me in the UK in a couple of days. I’ll be sure to post good, bad or indifferent experiences here…FYI Im an experienced home mechanic/racer and have been using a Cateye Cyclosimulator for the last 15 years so it will be quieter than that :-) Spoke to my UK supplier only one issue relating to an edco hub problem, he said Tacx was excellent in dealing with problems, glass always half full in my experience as an early adoptor.
Cheers DD
Mine is also due on Thursday in the UK but im not holding my breath as it has been delayed 4 times so far.
If it does arrive im hoping they have ieoned out some of the issues you.guys have encountered.
I too have swayed back and forth regarding these Neo issues but finally went for the Kickr as soon as new stock in the UK arrived. Really glad I did too and now see it was foolish to wait a few months with the Neo delays to my pre-order. With a discount on the Kickr the price difference to the Neo was several hundred pounds. Tacx appear to be working on resolving their teething problems but surprised that they haven’t recalled the dodgy stock. I wouldn’t have the patience to receive two or three bad units particularly during trainer season. Tacx should be flushing them out themselves. The UK does still havs stock since the last shipment so they aren’t selling. However, if people are waiting for the Neo to bed down before they buy then they will still be running the gauntlet of bad units for quite some time.
A wise choice I feel. My LBS contacted me yesterday and have a new shipment of Neo’s and wondered if I wanted to try one. I don’t think I’ll bother to be frank.
Since fitting new drivetrain, my KICKR is VERY smooth. In terms of power calibration I have recently found that the discrepancy between KICKR and Stages PM is because my left leg / right leg balance is slightly out…allowing for that and the KICKR is spot on. The KICKR is bombproof, works with everything and even if you had an absolutely perfect working Neo, the smoothness and speed of resistance change is far better on the KICKR.
The only downside to a KICKR right now is noise, but if you use it in ERG mode, use the little ring and whatever rear cog is smoothest/quietest, it really is no big deal. My fan or TV makes more noise.
And as you say, KICKR can be had far far cheaper. Recently Wiggle did a 17% discount for platinum members (I daresay they’ll do this again post crimbo) and it could be had for £740.
Tacx support also seems to be hit or miss.
In six months time Neo reliability will be established and the usual Tacx discounts will price the Neo well under £800. I paid more than that for the Kickr but it feels worth it. I didn’t feel the noise was that bad and actually a little whine covers up a fair amount of transmission clack.
Also I was surprised how uneven my garage floor was so the foot adjustment on the Kickr needed quite a bit of tweaking. Couldn’t have done that on the Neo.
@Dan S – As you are running yours in your garage the KickR is currently a dead cert. It’s far cheaper, been out for ages and the bugs all sorted. In the privacy / luxury of your garage there seems little point in taking a risk on a Neo.
The temptation to buy Neo’s comes from the (many) people that live in flats and need to keep the noise to a minimum for so many reasons. Then you need to take a ticket and enter the lottery.
My 2nd Neo is now waiting to be collected (along with the spare hub TACX sent – which wouldn’t freewheel). Support currently have no answers for the rubbing / sawing I recently linked, but they are working on it and hopefully the Neo being returned will give them some big pointers. The service from support is still very good and this gives me a little confidence that this will be eventually fixed and in the meantime at least my current one is usable. I still keep thinking that if they can make a quiet one for Ray then I’ve got a chance too…
I read this long thread with a bit of anxiety, as I have ordered a NEO and I realized too late there were potential quality issues.
My NEO arrived today, and I unpacked and installed in about 20 minutes. Then went for a 1 hour session with Zwift and Veloreality, just to test it a bit. (note that before that I used an iGenius “dumb” version for a couple of years)
My first impression is that it is an amazing product.
It’s extremely silent, no rattles, no vibrations, no gumball noise, etc. The slight side movement adds realism and slopes above 6 % are very realistic(finally!!!) as there is no tire slippage.
My iGenius was noisy like a airplane during take-off, and tire slippage made my trainings very unconfortable for slopes well above 6%; the NEO in this respect is on another planet – even pushing hard on the pedals for 700-800W it’s amazing that the only slight noise i hear is the bike chain.
So far I’m a very happy NEO customer :-)
The only (minor) issue I’ve found is that… there is no power button, and to turn it off I need to unplug the cable (unless I’m missing something). A bit annoying, but I think I can live with that ;-)
Mario. Good to hear that people are getting working units in new batches! -though of course most people have been getting working units since the start we must assume.
You are correct about a power button. You do know it operates without power too,right? Albeit without freewheel down hills
Yes, indeed, I know, and as you say the downhill simulation is a nice plus that I wouldn’t want to miss, at least not during RL video training or such.
I think I’ll sort it out by adding a power cable with a foot switch.
Mario- I also received my Neo today and my results are as good as yours. I have been a Fortius user since 2007 and a Genius user for the past year. Just a 20 min ride so far on zwift, because it is after midnight for me now, and I am very happy. I really enjoyed the little swaying motion especially climbing. It really added some realism to the feel of the ride. I was mostly impressed with the smoothness of climbing. On the Fortius anything over 10% was nasty and choppy, with the Genius anything over 8% was not realistic for me but with the Neo so far all the grades in zwift felt smooth and realistic. what is your serial number? mine is 00828. I bought mine through clever training here in the US. I don’t think you need to worry about unplugging the trainer. I always left my Fortius on for years and also my Genius all the time. No problems. Glad to hear more people reporting positive reports on their Neo’s. I have two other Tacx friends that received their Neo’s yesterday. All bought through clever training. We ride TTS4 on multiplayer and have been doing that for years on Fortius. I will get them to also post here with their results. Happy riding.
Any 12×142 axle option for the neo?
Quoting Taxc FAQ: “Tacx will come with an adapter that can be used on the current models. The ETA will take some time however and we do not have a delivery for this at the moment. More information will follow in November.”
So we’ll likely have more info soon enough.
Quoting Tacx FAQ: “Tacx will come with an adapter that can be used on the current models. The ETA will take some time however and we do not have a delivery for this at the moment. More information will follow in November.”
So we’ll likely have more info soon enough.
My neo just shipped– wahoo! (pun intended). Ok so what else do I need to purchase to make this work? Just a cassette or do I need some tools and whatnot? Sorry this thread is so long it’s hard to find everything we need. A campag lockring tool? Which one? Excited to test this bad boy out, will report back asap…
Hi Joe
You need a campag cassette tool and a chain whip so you can hold the cassette whilst you tighten the lock ring onto the cassette, I appreciate not everyone will have the cassette tool if you are on shimano so will have to buy or borrow one, I wouldnt fancy carrying one to my local bike shop
Had my neo for 24 hours. I must let you know I am an intermediate cyclist. Did 1 lap on zwift this morning and this thing is awesome. Can’t comment if power is accurate, but the mph is very similar to my outdoor riding. So far loving everything about this trainer. Sooooo quiet. Glad I spent the extra money. This is going to change my life. Exercise is finally fun. My goal is to lose 30 lbs. Lost 10 with diet alone. Now I am stuck at 188lbs. This is going to complete my lifestyle change. Trainer looks darn sexy sitting behind my cadd10. Can’t imagine it feeling any more realistic than this. Bring on winter!
Some inspiration for you…I started riding in 2014 at around 210lbs. Towards the end of the year I was 190lbs. I was fed up getting dropped on hills and had booked some “nasty” rides for 2015 like KTGs Tour of the Peaks. So on 1st Jan I gave up alcohol and went on a strict diet combined with a 1 hour workout every day. Can’t remember when I started riding outside again but I stuck to a “little and often” approach. By mid-may I was 165lbs and thats when I did the Tour of the Peaks. I lost a bit more after, but soon realised you need to be carb’d up for long rides so spent the rest of the year making sure I ate enough to achieve my rides. I spent the entire summer/autumn at 168lbs.
I decided that winter time is the obvious time to lose weight because you can sack off the outdoor weekend slogs and just go back to indoor “little and often”. I decided to spend Oct/Nov/Dec losing weight and from Jan onwards I’ll hit the gym/intensity-workouts and build strength.
6th October I started – 170lbs. I’m currently 160lbs.
I have not touched one drop of alcohol since 1st Jan, and whilst my strict diet is indeed strict, my summertime diet was one of “eat plenty, but eat right” with occasional treats. It is indeed a lifestyle change.
I bust my supersix evo on my kickr last year and its been hanging on all this time with a snapped frame, just good enough for the trainer. Last week I bought a 2015 CAAD8 as a replacement. Needed an 11sp so I can swap bikes quickly on my trainer without changing cassette. So far its riding smoooooth :)
So stick in there mate. Just remember – little and often is the key to both exercise and food. I ride with my son to school and go the long way back to make it around 11 miles in the morning. I do a solid hour every day at lunch, do a short 5 mile school run in the afternoon, occasionally might go on the trainer in the evening but tend not do – overdoing it is just as bad as underdoing it.
Best of luck :)
Thanks Lee that is very inspiring. I have cut alcohol back from about 6 -8 beers a week to 2-4 a month. That has really helped. My metabolism is pitiful due to lack of a regular exercise program and having a desk job. Your weight loss journey sounds similar to mine. I hope to be joining you in the sub 170lb club some time in 2016. Still waiting on my HR monitor to show up so i am starting off easy. My blood pressure is already coming down just with the small 10lb weight loss. Cant wait to actually get my cardiovascular system in shape. So many people in my life have been having heart surgery for clogged arteries, heart attacks, dieing, most of them late 40’s to late 50’s. Im 32 and the time to act was yesterday so better late than never!
I’m 41 now and spent all my adult like behind desks in IT jobs. The bottom line is that humans aren’t meant to spend their days sitting. Just get a step counter and compare a normal deskjob day to a weekend day where you might be doing nothing more than tidying the house,spot of hoovering etc.
Dunno what my resting heart rate was before I started cycling, but it would have been average or perhaps over average. Certainly all BMI charts and similar put me down as obese.
Today my resting HR is around 45 and for every BMI/fat chart etc I’m green all the way. I eat better and more now than I did before and have more energy.
As we say – cycling can bring around a complete lifestyle change :)
Hi all another happy customer my Neo arrived today and I set it up in about 10 mins running 11speed Shimano di2. I did 1 1/2 hours on Zwift and it was totally silent very impressed also with the freewheeling downhill. I train with a stages power meter and I didn’t have it on my bike but the power speed and cadence matched well to my road rides. I do sympathise with those of you that had issues but wanted to comment on a positive experience
I had a scary incident with my NEO yesterday morning, since then I have reported the issue to Support with no response. I am posting here as there seems to be some more attention to DC than support.
What happened: After about an hour of structured workout via zwift that worked just fine I switched over to a free ride and was going to end the ride after the sprint point. At about 3/4 the way through my sprint effort the NEO locked up, the resistance went all the way up for no reason at all. Locking up the cranks at over 1000 watts is extremely bad for my knees (as I have now found), the derailler hanger, seat stays…you get the point. I have a couple of questions to the group:
1) Has anyone else had this happen to them, if so was there a remedy?
2) Does anyone have an idea why this occurred, especially during a sprint?
3) How would I test this without tearing apart the unit (don’t see how that would help.) or tempting fate again by repeating the sprint effort?
Thank you.
A) Is it still locked?
B) I’ve seen this with a few other trainers occur – extremely rare – and almost always a software bug on the app side. For example an app telling the trainer to deliver 2,000w (which would feel like a lock-up). It’d be interesting to look at the Zwift file and see what the recorded power values are.
C) You’d have to wait for Tacx support there, though honestly it may be worth bringing up to Zwift as well.
The unit unlocked when i unplugged it and rolls just fine now. The .fit file shows a near 1000 watt effort spike with an abrupt decline, which is the point at which the resistance when up. If this is a software issue how do I resolve that? I am android user, which is a standard tacx is working on.
Strange, i looked at the fit file you sent over, but I only see a top wattage of about 310w just before it dropped off. The .FIT file was dated the 11th, any chance it was a different file?
Sorry, I posted the wrong file
As an aside, I did get a note from Tacx today. They admit there is a problem. The resolution is the Utility app that is available to IPhone, not android users like me. So I have a stealthy designed paper weight until Tacx can get it’s act together. They should probably just recall all affected units and get through this mess.
Dominick.
The good news is that iOS friends are easy to find, and you only need them for about 2 minutes, then they can go about their daily life.
After finding a neighbor who was kind enough to lend me his phone I was feeling confident about the NEO. Short lived confidence unfortunately, Saturday’s ride was fine so I ramped it up a bit on Sunday and yep a major skip that lead to a lock. After relaying this back to Tacx they have admitted that the unit is probably faulty and suggest I get a replacement. Unfortunately, all the bad reviews thus far seem to not deter purchases so I have heard nothing about when I might actually get a replacement device. Couple this with the fact that the company cannot seem to ship it’s software in a timely manner (Friday will be 3 weeks) and I say stay away from Tacx all together. On the plus side, it’s very quiet and is reliable outside of a sprint.
Further update. Going nowhere with TACX so that is going to have to be returned for a refund. The question then comes down to Wahoo Kickr or Elite Real or something else? Suggestions?
If you want a wheel-off trainer, then surely it has to be the KICKR. The Elite Muin has been criticised for the amount of time it takes to change resistance as its basically using a motor/screw to move a magnet up and down.
Alternatively – as well as a KICKR I have a KICKR Snap. Same unit in terms of software compatibility/features but a wheel-on design which is more convenient for wife/son. Its absolutely quiet (no KICKR “whine”) and the smoothest wheel-on trainer I’ve ever used.
Just got my NEO also. Been riding a Kickr for over year and a Computrainer before that and many other before that. Based on initial impressions, I love the NEO. It is super smooth and quiet. So far, I can say it is nicer than the Kickr, which is very good.
Several minor quibbles:
– I have a 11 speed campy drivechain and the big cog it too close to the metal disc to use without the derailleur cage hitting..
– I have 175 mm cranks and if I drop my heels, they hit the plastic legs
– my frame seat stays are awfully close to the trainer body
All these really don’t affect my riding, but they shouldn’t be an issue since they could easily be designed away with small changes in dimensions.
I’m not a picky equipment nebbish, so I can live with small annoyances…
Hey Mattv- I am also running Campy and also have that same problem. I am running 10 speed but also can not shift into the biggest rear cog without the derailleur arm rubbing against the metal disc. This is not really a Tacx problem but I think a little more testing would have brought this to light. I was hoping Tacx could come up with a solution like an altered or modified free hub body that would bring the camp derailleur just a millimeter away from the disc when in the largest rear cog. We will see what fix if any might be in the near future.
Tony – yes, it only needs a mm or so and it would clear. I guess Campy gets no respect any more.
My campy drivetrain is extremely quiet. With the Neo, I now hear my cleats squeaking and that is driving my crazy….hehe….
Its not just a campy thing, I have the same thing with my di2 10sp. even worse, the dérailleur catches the plastic, not the metals and has put light scoring in it.
I have a Kickr & Ultegra Di2 (before that 105 mechanical).
I’ve never been able to use the largest cog on the rear. The mech touches the Kickr.
Yep.. noticed that problem weeks ago when I first got my Neo.. I since changed back to an old Pinarello frame and Campagnolo 12-25 10s block.. although the instructions said not to, I put the .5mm spacer behind the casette to push the cog out a little more and get a better chainline…. working great so far.. but I find any drivetrain noise is really amplified!!
Ok- so this morning was my second ride on my new Tacx Neo- rode in Tacx TTS4 software and road a RLV for an hour. Still everything is perfect, quiet as can be, smooth as can be and a big success. With that being said I have ONE small observation.
When I came downstairs to my bike man cave I heard the faintest sound- it was like someone lightly blowing into a glass bottle top, or someone running a wet finger around the rim of a crystal glass. Very very quiet but I barely caught it. When I knelt down next to the Neo it was coming from inside. I left it plugged in and thought this was normal to do so but after hearing this noise and finishing my ride I still heard it so I unplugged it and the noise stopped. Nothing is actually turning inside physically that I could feel but it must just be an electronic noise. I will ask Tacx about it but wanted to ask how many Neo owners are leaving their trainers plugged into the power outlet? and if you are can you take a second to listen very closely to the trainer to see if you hear any noise while it is at complete rest. I have owned a Fortius for years and also a Genius. I always left them plugged in and on so I did not think twice with the Neo. I am now gong to unplug it when I am done riding each time.
I thought the grade changes were also spot on especially compared to my Genius. I have google earth running in TTS4 as well so I can see the profile and the map to compare when and where I am at in comparison to what the RLV is showing as I am riding. Great Trainer.
@Tony – Indeed I get the same noise when the Neo is left plugged in. It’s especially noticeable after a ride.
@Andrew- I received an email from Tacx and they recommend unplugging the Neo after each ride.
OK so just to clarify how to use zwift with macbook pro with neo and get it displayed onto my TV. I need a Garmin ant+ dongle that I plug into my computer. The Neo communicates directly with this so that is all I absolutely need to purchase to run Zwift on my macbook pro, but I can use apple TV to mirror it onto my real big screen TV at home if I want to as well.
And if I want to actually control the Neo from my handlebars I’d also need to get an Ant+ dongle for iPhone/iPad like the Wahoo Fitness Fisica Sensor Key and use that ton control resistance on the trainer from handlebars?
Am I understanding this correctly?
Thanks for all the help!
You can use a bluetooth link to the phone to control the Neo.
Oh, so I don’t even need to buy any type of dongle anymore for full use with ipad/iphone/macbook pro? Was this a recent update or something?
Maybe…. link to support.zwift.com I forgot they recently introduced the BT relay. I’m an Android user, so don’t have it yet :(
Picked up a Neo on Wednesday after a lengthy internal debate about Kickr V Neo, it was the noise that finally swung it for me.
My initial impressions are very positive, the feel is very nice and the ERG mode in TR worked very well for me, hitting 99% accuracy on every interval. Early days but I’m happy so far. The only slight hesitation I have is I occasionally feel a slight vibration through the pedals (I might grease the freehub and see if that resolves), also backpedalling can cause the chain to momentarily stick which is odd. The hub may be a weak spot on these.
The other issue is the power accuracy isn’t there, I’m finding the Neo over reading by around 10-12 watts compared to my Vectors (I’d have expected a slight under read given the downstream location of the Neo). I’ve raised with Tacx so will see what they say, running the latest firmware.
How do you know your Vectors are accurate? From what I recall of DC’s tests they seemed to offer slightly different readings to the mainstream….friend of mine (who has had a bunch of PMs) bought a set, fiddled, got them replaced by Garmin, fiddled some more, eventually just sold them. Wasn’t happy at all.
I always use the rule of three :) Get two PMs that agree and then see how they relate to a third. Messy business this PM stuff :)
Both of my Neos reads a bit low. When doing intervals at 300 watt, both my other power meters (Quarq and Vector 2, on two different bikes) give about 8 watt more. My friend also see the exact same power readings (Vector 2) from his Neo. For my it’s clear that Tacx has done something wrong here with the calibration.
Look at the bright side, outside you can peddle a wooping 8 more watts! :)
Yeah, 8-10w @ 300w is well within the accuracy range of either unit. Both are roughly 2%, which at 300w is +/-6w each, so a total range of 12w. And that’s before you account for drivetrain and other losses.
As for your Tacx reading lower than Garmin – that’s exactly what it should be doing (and roughly about where you are). In fact, I’d say your readings are likely perfect.
Ok, I see now that my comment didn’t showed the irony that I meant..
What I actually meant was that for me this is SPOT ON. Simply because two different Neos shows the exact same power outputs. And yes, I also know the difference in measuring points..But I take critic for a bad try for some irony here ;)
At 300w – being 8w away from two other readings that may not be totally accurate sounds pretty good to me.
Agree with Andrew. I don’t get all this people complaining its not accurate as it doesn’t match their power meter. As long as the power is the same every time, you can work with it. If you use Trainer road you can match the power, never used it but seen it mentioned a few times. Power consistency is more important to me than accuracy compared to my power meter. I would have thought 8w at 300w will be well within the power tolerances of both devices anyway.
The reason I am looking to upgrade as well as many other faults and flaws with my vortex, 200w at 5 minutes is completely different to 10 minutes, and then it changes again after 20, 30, 40 50 minutes. The power is never consistent, even if you do a warm up and calibration test prior to starting your workout. If your NEO is consistently showing 8w difference I’d be interested in one.
Here’s why accuracy is important. This is from *my* perspective, not a hard and fast rule so YMMV.
I regard turbo as training, and outdoor riding is the enjoyment, or the ability to put that training into use.
I use the turbo to understand my thresholds and what I’m capable of. It might be my power over an hour (which I would use on a 25 mile TT), or it might be my sustained power for 5 minutes (which I would use on a hill climb).
So if I get to a point where I think my 1 hour power output is 250W, but then I did my TT and I blow up after 10 minutes because my power meters don’t agree, then its a problem.
One theory is that you should train with the some power meter as you ride with. Well thats great, but makes the purchase of a smart trainer somewhat redundant.
Or, if you don’t use a power meter outside at all, your indoor power meter/trainer needs only to be consistent with itself.
And this is all before the other issue you refer to which is drift, based on temperature/use. Thats a whole different problem :)
If 8W difference between all power meters was as bad as it gets, there’d be lots of smiles all round :)
My KICKR was originally 30W to 50W out from my StagesPM. Made any kind of indoor/outdoor comparisons impossible.
I kinda agree. For me I train by week by TSS score. So whilst consistency is critical, accuracy is also vital so I can track whether I’m hitting my planned training load. I’m in base at the moment so it’s low intensity, seeing 10 watts delta at 200 watts is a 5% delta from my vectors, and it’s an over read when it should be an under read taking into account drive train loss. So if you assume my vectors aren’t bang on then it’s outside the limit of +/- 2% on each device. If I get a chance I’ll swap my p2m onto my turbo bike and add another data point.
Sure I can keep the vectors on the turbo bike and use that to control the load but I expected a closer track to be honest.
Update from me. I’ve decided to return my neo for a refund. Post edco change it still isn’t working as advertised and I’m getting a lot of vibration through the bike when pushing 200w, 300w etc. I’ve had enough of messing around with it.
I’m glad others have positive experiences but I’m going to wait a good while before considering one again. I have zero confidence the proper checks have been done sadly. Such a shame as the concept is great. Best of luck to those persevering.
Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you had the same issue I still do and currently there is no fix / solution forthcoming. Some positive comments starting to come in on new ones though, which is promising.
My Kickr is about 20 watt lower than my quarq, but it is super consistent, thus comparisons to the outside riding are extremely relevant. Have not yet compared to Neo, maybe tonight.
I think someone needs to start a trainer certification program and go to everyone’s house and do random trainer inspections. These power discrepancies are a disgrace to the sport…….
Hi there
Is it possible to run programmed workouts by time and power – for example:
1min@200W
1min@250W
1min@300w
1min@200W
20min@350W
2min@200W
etc
Also, how many ‘segments’ are programable?
Many thanks
That’s all about what the software is capable of, the trainer is capable of hitting x wattage for y minutes
That depends on the software you are using to control the Neo. For example TR will allow you to programme the above right now. Zwift will not, but has stated the functionality is coming “soon”.
Thank that’s very helpful :)
Still nobody put a 51cm Cervelo P5 on yet?
Still no local stockists here and I don’t wan’t to order online just to have to bundle it straight back to them
I would say it depends on the year. Looking at the 2016 model I would guess you would have a problem. Basically I will say that any chainstay that doesn’t run in a direct line from the dropout to the bottom of the bottom bracket would be a “must get confirmation”. If you look at the 2016 P5 Six you can see that the chainstay runs deeper because it comes down behind the brakes. I would also assume the bikes like Scott, with their bent chainstays would also require confirmation. I would suggest that any other frame that runs straight, and fits their template, would be more likely to be ok.
Kudos to nicx – post #952 for identifying the cause of the sawbone issue and coming up with a fix.
Received an email this morning from Tacx, the sawbone issue has been investigated and the vibration/noise is one of the main bearings in the metal disc.
*IF* you had a suitable puller, you “could” do the fix yourself, but I really don’t think Tacx want nor expect any user to do this.
AFAIK this is the only remaining noise issue with the Neo. Others have reported whistlings or hums etc but that just sounds like normal operation noises.
So I suspect any units now manufactured will have a bearing washer and some grease applied in the factory :)