Back this spring PowerTap for the first time announced a power meter that wasn’t in the rear wheel hub. Well, they actually announced two new power meters. The first was the PowerTap P1, which is a pedal based power meter, while the second was a chainring based power meter. Neither of these new options were designed to replace their long running PowerTap hub line (i.e. the G3 hubs). Instead, these are just seen as new product lines to complement the hub (in fact, the hub also received new dual-capable caps). Just like a car company having different models of cars based on consumer demand.
In any event, PowerTap sent over both the P1 and C1 units for me to start testing in early June, and since then I’ve gotten in a rather nice sum of riding. Of course, I’m not just riding with one power meter, but usually between 3-4 power meters concurrently, allowing me to collect large data comparison sets.
As the title alludes to, this review is focused on the P1. As of this writing the C1 review process (read: lots of riding) is already underway, and will likely publish in late August, perhaps sooner. Oh, and as usual, I’ll send back both of these units to PowerTap once I wrap-up the C1 review, and likely go out and buy sets of the pedals for myself. But…let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves.
Unboxing:
First up we’ve gotta get these things out of their cigar-like box. Elongated cigar-like boxes have become all the rage for pedal based power meters lately. Probably because they look cool.
Inside after cracking it open you’ll find two pedals and some cleats, protected as if entering one of those egg-drop competitions you did in grade school. Don’t worry, I’ve since dropped the pedals three times onto the hardwood floors (while unscrewing them). No broken egg-shells yet.
Floating on top is a card with the ANT+ ID and serial number information for your pedals. Meanwhile, inside you’ll also find two cleats and some cleat attachment hardware (screws and related stuff).
And that’s it. Nothing more that’s needed. Here’s a couple of pretty shots of the pedals.
And then the cleats:
Now the cleats are actually slightly different than your standard Keo cleats. You can sorta use existing Keo cleats with the PowerTap P1’s, but you’ll find the fit isn’t super snug. Based on my testing, it really depends on the age/wear of your existing Keo Cleats.
See, during my first weekend with the units down in Majorca back in May, I had nearly brand new (regular) Keo cleats on my bike shoes, and had zero issues with the PowerTap P1’s. They stayed in spot-on.
But, by time I got to June my new cleats had some wear on them and they’d hardly stay locked into the PowerTap P1’s during any hard efforts. So I swapped to the cleats included and have had zero issues since.
But, do these PowerTap Keo cleat variants work with existing Keo units? Mostly, in my testing. I’ve used them with both a stock set of Keo pedals, as well as the bePRO power meter XPEDO variants, with no issues. But again, it may also be that my cleats are still new enough that issues might not crop up there. So it’s probably a bit a case of buyer beware (or rather, careful).
With the unboxing completed, let’s move onto some of the weight and size comparisons.
Weight & Size Comparisons:
First up is the weight of the pedal itself, first the single pedal (218-219g each), and then the two together (437g):
How about weights of other pedal based power meters? No problem, here’s Vector, Vector2, and bePRO, along with a standard Keo pedal (non-power). I’ve included all parts required within the weights.
Of course, comparing size you’ll see slight differences in how each pedal is designed. For example the PowerTap has the battery compartment within the pedal itself, while Vector places it in detachable pods that connect to the pedal. And then bePRO places it in a non-detachable pod that floats off to the side.
All of these pedals have the exact same q-factor though, with none of them being different (despite any optical illusions otherwise). This is important, and something that I’ve seen some discussion on – so I wanted to call it out.
Of course, weight is hardly the only aspect when it comes to power meter selection. In fact, I’d say it actually ranks lowest on my list. Instead, I’d focus on factors such as placement location (and how you might use it), as well as accuracy and cost.
Installation & Configuration:
As you’ll see in a second, the installation of the PowerTap P1 is probably its best feature. If we look at other pedal based power meters on the market, the complexity is either higher – or more prone to being screwed up. To begin, here’s where we start with the PowerTap P1:
We’ve got your normal bike crank arms without pedals, and then we’ve got the pedals. Additionally, we’ve got a standard issue hex wrench set – the kind you already have.
Now – you’ll take the hex wrench and insert it into the crank arm hole and then insert it onwards into the pedal.
Then you’ll tighten until it feels appropriately tight.
And now you’re done. Seriously, done. Just repeat for the other side:
No torque wrenches needed, no specific torque measurement. Neither are there any complex tools or parts needed.
The only thing left to do is to simply calibrate the unit once now that it’s attached. To do that, you’ll grab either a Garmin head unit or the PowerTap Joule GPS (or any other power meter capable head unit) and trigger the ‘calibrate’ button.
Technically this is more of a zero offset, but it is recommended by PowerTap to do prior to each ride.
With that – we’re done and ready to ride.
I really can’t emphasize enough how big a deal it is that there aren’t any additional tools or torque requirements required. This is exactly what everyone wanted Vector to be from a portability standpoint. With Vector I would have needed a bunch of other tools to properly install it for accurate data. Whereas with the PowerTap P1’s I can just toss it in my carry-on bag on the plane with a simple hex wrench and easily install them on any bike I find.
Note that due to the general design of the Keo pedals, you wouldn’t (can’t) use a pedal wrench. Though, I can’t imagine anyone would complain about having to use the universally available hex wrench instead.
Speaking of random notes, lacking another place to put it – I should note that the PowerTap P1 does support oval/non-round chainrings. Here’s PowerTap’s official answer on that:
“Non-round rings are supported perfectly with the P1. We are taking 40 individual angular velocity measurements and subsequently 40 power measurements per pedal stroke. Any acceleration/deceleration within a pedal stroke would be measured. Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports [higher] power when using non-round rings.”
This is notable because most other crank and pedal region power meters don’t support oval chainrings (including Vector, SRM, and others).
Pedal Impact on Cornering:
Since publishing this review earlier in the week, some of you have asked about the difference in cornering, and if the slightly thicker pedal would have any impact (no pun intended). No doubt I’m not usually racing crits or other situations which require me to corner heavily, but to that end after almost two months with the units I certainly haven’t had a case where they’ve hit. Note that I do know full well that you should have your pedal up when cornering, but still many folks asked to see what happens if not.
Thus I went about putting together a little test to show what difference, if any, there might be. First I grabbed a spare road bike I had and tossed the pedals on it. In this case, the crank length here is 175mm, which may be different than others – so that would have a greater effect than the more common 172.5mm lengths.
Then, I strapped an iPhone with a free level app on the seat tube. I used a small piece of tape to avoid breaking my iPhone for the second time this summer.
Then I simply leaned the bike over until the flat portion of the pedal touched the floor. In this configuration I had the crank arm pointed as straight down as possible, and then I manually rotated the pedal such that the lowest portion (flat portion) would touch. This is because pedals otherwise are rear-heavy and the back portion would touch first. Given you don’t ride with the pedal vertical, I changed the orientation manually.
In the case of the PowerTap P1, this meant that they hit the ground ‘level’ at 31 degrees (31°), as seen below:
Next, I loaded up a standard/stock Keo pedal on one side of the bike (I didn’t bother swapping the other side, since they’re obviously identical).
I then repeated the same procedure:
In this case, the result was a tiny bit more lean – at 33°, sometimes 34° depending on precisely how flat the pedal was – it’s a bit finicky. But we were only really talking about 1mm difference there between those two.
I should point out that 30-33° of lean is actually fairly substantial. A photo doesn’t capture it terribly well, but you have your bike significantly over. The lean would actually be more on the more shorter common crank lengths of 172.5mm (than my 175mm).
Ultimately, I just can’t imagine this making much of a difference in pedal strikes and/or cornering. But that’s just me.
General Use & Battery life:
Now that we’ve got the install out of the way, let’s talk about general usage and daily use. In many ways, it’s set it and forget it. The unit uses active temperature compensation using a temperature sensor internally. This allows them to shift the offset value as required as the temperature changes. Each unit is calibrated prior to shipping at a high temperature and room temperature, which enables them to determine a temperature slope. PowerTap states a temperature range of –40°F to +140°F, in the horribly unlikely event that you find yourself riding at either ends of that extreme.
You can still zero offset prior to any ride, and PowerTap themselves says “it is important to periodically zero the offset manually.” In my case, I just do it prior to every ride and haven’t seen any issues with accuracy by doing it that way. This is similar to most other power meters.
Additionally, you’ll want to ensure that you’ve set the crank length properly on your head unit. This is easy to do (only takes about 3 seconds), and will ‘stick’ permanently within that bike profile/sensor. If you don’t do this, then the unit will likely have incorrect power (I believe the default setting for the P1 is 172.5mm, so anything other than that and you’d have higher or lower power than actual).
It should be noted that the unit has a simple status light on the outside. This automatically illuminates when you first start spinning the crank – letting you confirm all is well.
Next we’ve got the batteries. The unit uses a single AAA battery per pedal, the compartment can be found just below the platform portion of the pedal, and is opened using a hex wrench:
The PowerTap P1 is rated for 60 hours of battery life per AAA battery. I didn’t yet ride for 60 hours in the last 6 weeks (since I mix in swimming and running as well), but during that time I never hit the end of the battery life (meaning, at least it’s not substantially lower).
While some have early-on complained about the AAA battery, I think there’s a fair bit of flawed logic in complaining. PowerTap has made it clear that the power requirements dictated a beefier battery than a standard CR2032. Had they gone with a different coin cell type (i.e. a CR2) it would have made them more difficult to get ahold of. In fact, outside of doing a AA battery, there’s no battery that’s easier to find anywhere in the world than a AAA battery.
Even if you ignore the low-battery warnings you’ll get many hours before it dies, you can stop in any convenience store or gas station on any road on earth and pickup a AAA battery mid-ride. That’s definitely not true of the CR2032. Nor is it true of rechargeable pedals (via USB cable) – which can be a bit of a pain.
Finally, within the constraints of a pedal, the battery housing for the AAA battery is much more structurally sound (and water-resistant) than most CR2032 battery compartments on the market. For example, one only need to look at the water-ingest challenges that Stages has had – or even Quarq. Quarq recently redesigned their compartment yet again to minimize water ingest, but this new beefier design would never fit on the bottom of a pedal (compared to the crank spider). You’d have to find a large and flat spot on the pedal to put the battery in it, while still protecting it from either downwards force onto the ground (walking) or force while clipping in.
Swapping Bikes:
Sometimes, a simple video speaks a thousand words. Words that I don’t have to write. To illustrate the ease in which you can swap the pedals to another bike, I’ve put together this 2-minute video. Of which, significantly less than two minutes is actually used to swap the pedals:
No doubt there are other videos out there showing crank swaps and Vector swaps (including some of my own). I think the key difference though when comparing a crank swap to the PowerTap P1 swap though is that in the case of just moving a crank between bikes – said bikes must have the same bottom bracket configuration. Within my bikes, very few of them share the same configuration. Same goes for rental bikes and the like.
Head Unit Compatibility:
The PowerTap P1 connects to head units via both ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart, concurrently. This means that you can use it with just about any recent power meter capable bike computer/triathlon watch on the market today.
For connecting via ANT+, that’s supported by the Garmin Edge series, Forerunner series, and PowerTap’s own Joule and Joule GPS+. That’s all in addition to a host of ANT+ power-meter capable products over the years by both these companies and others.
When you search for the PowerTap P1’s it’ll find a single ANT+ ID, just like other power meters on the market today. While you may have two pedals, that communication is channeled through one pedal and onwards to the head unit. Note that you can NOT split up the pedals and give one to a friend, and at present PowerTap states they don’t have much interest in selling a one-pedal-only unit (given they already sell the PowerTap C1 for roughly half the price, that would be a more logical direction if you’re budget constrained).
If you dive into the menus of your head unit, you’ll get information such as manufacturer and battery state:
Additionally, this is where you can calibrate (technically a zero offset) for the pedals:
When you do this, you should not have your feet on the pedals and the pedals should be left hanging there by themselves.
As for being out on a ride, you’ll get left/right power balance, total power, as well as cadence. For those interested, here’s an example of ride I did with the PowerTap P1 and the Garmin Epix, to see the data collected.
You won’t however get any Garmin Cycling Dynamics – since Garmin locks that down to just themselves. Additionally, PowerTap has stated that they’re looking to move slowly into more advanced metrics – taking a bit of a ‘wait and see’ approach to what individuals and research entities might find useful.
Now – there is one oddity that I’ve seen, which is that on the Garmin Edge 1000 the crank-arm length option doesn’t show up for the PowerTap P1’s (it does show up for Garmin Vector pedals). This is critical as you must set the crank length correctly to get accurate results. Given this option shows up correctly on other units (including the Edge 810 and Garmin Epix), I’ve gotta suspect this is some sort of bug here on the Edge 1000. Ironically, I also saw this same issue when trying to use the 4iiii Precision power meter (doesn’t allow setting of crank length on the Edge 1000 specifically). Now I’ve also seen an oddity on the Edge 810 where it’ll give a false right pedal lost warning message when you first start pedaling at the beginning of the ride. It appears to be a minor ride start negotiation hiccup and hasn’t impacted any data that I’ve seen. It doesn’t happen on the Joule GPS+, or on the Garmin Epix.
(Update Aug 30th, 2015: Garmin has confirmed they will be issuing a firmware update to add/add back in crank length support for the FR920XT, Edge 1000, and Edge 520 – the only units missing support. They have not confirmed an exact timeframe for doing so. In the meantime, you can post your Settings.FIT file to the Garmin Forums – see link in the comments – and some helpful moderators are responding with updated files for you with corrected crank lengths for people not on 172.5mm.
Update 2: All current Garmin products now support setting the crank length for the P1 – so no problems there anymore!)
Next, on the Bluetooth Smart side, you can pair the pedals with units that support Bluetooth Smart power meters today. Sorta. In my case, my firmware on the units (v1.7) that shipped in early June did not have the Bluetooth Smart stack fully enabled. So while devices could pair to it, they weren’t producing power on my firmware version.
However, devices that started shipping in the past few weeks (v1.9) have had this updated firmware, and readers have generally reported good luck on both Polar (V800) and Suunto devices (Ambit3). Unfortunately, my ability to test that update is limited because of the fact that the firmware updater that will allow over the air updates of the PowerTap P1 is still about 1-2 weeks away from being released.
At the same time that’s released, PowerTap will be changing the way they broadcast the BLE signal. Specifically, they’ll be shifting towards pairing individual pedals versus everything being channeled through the one pod today – per the official spec on dual-capable devices. The benefit of that from their perspective is potentially increased data metrics. However, it’ll also require companies to update their firmware to understand this.
PowerTap tells me that they’ve been working with Polar on this to ensure compliance, and hope to also work with Suunto as well. Once any one of these items are released, I’ll update this section accordingly.
As an addendum – I’ve created the below table to track compatibility status. I’ll update this accordingly based on testing by myself, readers (that’s you), or manufacturers.
PowerTap P1 Compatibility
Display Unit
Date Tested
DCR/Reader/Manuf
Compatibility Status
Garmin Edge 500
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile
Garmin Edge 510
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile
Garmin Edge 520
Oct 1st, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile in FW 3.00 and higher
Garmin Edge 800
Aug 15th, 2015
Reader
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile
Garmin Edge 810
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile
Garmin Edge 820
Apr 25th, 2017
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Garmin Edge 1000
Sep 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile in FW 5.10 and higher
Garmin FR735XT
Apr 25th, 2017
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Garmin FR910XT
Aug 11th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile
Garmin FR920XT
Oct 1st, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via bike profile (Beta Firmware 5.28 now available)
Garmin FR935
Apr 25th, 2017
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Garmin Fenix2
TBD
TBD
TBD
Garmin Fenix3/Fenix3 HR
Mar 26th, 2016
DCR
Fully functional now, was broken in January 2016 timeframe in specific F3 firmware versions, since fixed.
Garmin Fenix 5
Apr 25th, 2017
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Garmin Epix
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Garmin VIRB XE
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Polar V800
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Waiting on P1 BLE enablement - Will Test Upon BLE Release
Polar M450
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Waiting on P1 BLE enablement - Will Test Upon BLE Release
Polar V650
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Waiting on P1 BLE enablement - Will Test Upon BLE Release
PowerTap Joule 1.0 (non-GPS, small one)
Aug 8th, 2015
Manuf: PowerTap
Not at this time, cannot set crank length.
PowerTap Joule 2
Aug 8th, 2015
Manuf: PowerTap
Not compatible.
PowerTap Joule 3
Aug 8th, 2015
Manuf: PowerTap
Not compatible
PowerTap Joule GPS
Aug 8th, 2015
Manuf: PowerTap
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
PowerTap Joule GPS+
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Suunto Ambit2
TBD
TBD
TBD
Suunto Ambit3
Aug 8th, 2015
DCR
Waiting on P1 BLE enablement - Will Test Upon BLE Release
Wahoo ELEMNT
Apr 25th, 2017
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Wahoo ELEMNT BOLT
Apr 25th, 2017
DCR
Fully functional, can set crank length via sensor settings
Again, please note the date of testing, in case firmware changes have broken functionality. For example, the FR920XT used to work in older firmware versions, but in recent versions (as of Aug 8th) the crank length setting has been removed.
Power Accuracy Analysis:
As is always the case with power meter reviews, I include a section on accuracy. In order to determine validity of the numbers of a given power meter I look at compare it against numerous other power meters concurrently on a multitude of rides. While it’s easy to compare against just one other power meter, the reality is you can never be sure which one is ‘correct’. By introducing three or more power meters, you can start to isolate outliers. In the case of the PowerTap P1, they claim a 1.5% accuracy level.
In general, most power meters on the market today are very good when it comes to accuracy. I don’t subscribe to the ‘gold standard’ theory of certain brands. That’s outdated thinking, and ignores the fact that any and every power meter on the market can eventually have a ‘bad day’ given the right (or wrong) circumstances. Given enough time with so many units, I’ve got bad-day example instances on virtually every power meter (yes, including SRM). The trick is knowing what conditions might lead to this, and minimizing those.
In the case of my testing, all of my examples below are just from standard rides that I’m doing outdoors and inside on a trainer. Most of these rides start in city conditions with aspects like cobblestones, and then head out in the forests surrounding Paris. About half of them are at night, or at sunrise/sunset conditions where the temperature is shifting rapidly. Further yet, many of them occurred where I had brought the bike from the relatively cool DCR Cave temperatures to outdoor temps in the 90°F+ range.
Below are three examples I picked at random from my files to look at. However as is always the case I’ve included the ability for you to download all of the original power meter from my tests, enabling you to do your own analysis as you see fit (I’ve actually got another week or so of data to add in there, just haven’t sorted it out yet, but since it’s on Dropbox the folders will dynamically show up). Data for the majority of these rides was collected with Garmin Edge and Epix devices. Though I do also have some rides using the PowerTap Joule GPS+ as well.
Example 1: Night Ride
This ride started right at dusk, and then went for about 1hr and 45mins into the night, as the temperatures cooled. I figured it’d be a good test to see how temperature compensation handled things.
First up we’ve got the usual raw data comparison, which is of course really hard to discern anything:
Next I’ve smoothed it by 30 seconds, this means I’m showing the rolling average over any 30 second period. This makes it easier to pick out large-scale oddities, but it can in very select situations also illuminate minor differences in how head units record different power meters (such as when coasting). Also, it’ll heavily smooth out sharp sprints in power. Still, it’s an incredibly easy way to spot oddities.
(You may see cases at near-zero power numbers where there are odd disagreements. This is something I’ve long seen across a number of power meters and tends to come from how individual power meters and different head units report the shift from active pedaling – putting out power – to coasting and or stoppage, where the power drops to zero. I wouldn’t fret about anything above.)
Yet even in the 30s smoothed variant it’s tough to pick out minor variances. For that, it’s easier to dig into random sections. In this case, I’m just picking 175-second sections. I usually start at something like 1,000-1,175. These are the seconds into the file (i.e. running time). It’s just the way Excel shows me the data.
In this case, at the 1,000 second marker I was stopped doing a calibration – so that was kinda a loss. So I incremented up until I found a section where I was actually pedaling throughout it.
Well then, that’s pretty self-explanatory. If you have or see an issue with the above graph, you need to exit the room. Immediately.
My next random section I went for 3,000-3,175. But that was stopped somewhere. So I went for 3200-3375, but still sorta stopped:
So I incremented again to 3300-3475, and got a nice comparative set:
I left the highlighter on, just to show you how close these really are. At its widest point, it’s only 6 watts difference (on 216w), or 2.7% between them – well within the margin of error for any single power meter, let alone when you start combining multiple units.
Example 2: Paris Triathlon
Next up we’ve got the Paris Triathlon. Yes, during a race I actually recorded all three data streams. Why not? All you’ve gotta do is press start. Surely if I’m going to weave and dodge a thousand people I can just press the start button. And that I did.
First up, the totally crazy looking 1-second graph:
It was a bit tricky aligning all of these perfectly, because of the fact that the power data on the Epix (multisport watch) meant that it was used in all three legs, so I had to extract just the bike leg down to the exact second. I think I got it sorted out though.
Next, smoothed to 30-second:
And finally, a random snippet. Again, I just went with row 1000 for about three minutes, and shown smoothed at 30 seconds.
You can see that they track quite well against each other. The PowerTap P1 a bit higher than the G3 hub, which again is logical given the placement. This ranged from 2w at 230w, to 21w at 336w. Note however that in those spikes upwards of 350w you’re actually looking at the rolling average over the last 30 seconds. As such, knowing the race – this means that I was liking sprinting or otherwise leading a surge, so if you look at the actual power numbers for those segments were between 400-550w. Thus, it sorta messes a little bit with a rolling average compared to something like a perfectly steady state ride. Typically you’ll see more variance on short sprints between power meters, as they all tend to have their own slight smoothing algorithms.
You notice that as my power decreases the units get closer, well, the PowerTap ones anyway. I’ll talk more about the Pioneer in my last example.
Here’s another random snippet, this one simply at row 2000-2175.
In this random snippet case you see very nice tracking, especially when I’ve got more stable power being applied (versus slight differences when I’m increasing/decreasing power primarily on the Pioneer side).
Example 3: Ride of the TdF final stage
The day of the final Tour de France stage in Paris I went out and rode the route (solo) prior to the race commencing. Here’s what that roughly two hours looked like:
Adding in some 30-second smoothing:
Here’s the first random snippet, from rows 1000-1175. You’ll see the hub drop-out quicker than the others. This is likely a coasting section here following a short sprint (given the wattages in the 450w range). Typically this is one of the few areas you see the PowerTap wheel hubs not ‘catch’ the resulting lower-wattage soft-pedaling that might be going on. This is most easily demonstrated once you add in cadence as well, and about the only edge case on a PowerTap hub to be aware of.
Next, another random snippet, this one from rows 3000-3175 (I would have used 2000-2175 like before, but I was basically was coasting down a hill or a stoplight then by the looks of it). Pretty straightforward. Note, I shrunk the axis a bit, so it’s showing 150w-350w, not 0-350w+ as before (thus it makes them appear further apart). Thus in most cases the two PowerTap products are tracking within 10-12w, while the Pioneer was tracking lower at between 11-30w depending on the spot here.
Again, I didn’t analyze all this data till now – so looking at things I’d probably tweak the Pioneer units calibration unit to get it back in check – something a standard zero offset appears not to have done. In fact, in thinking about it a bit more 6 weeks later, I’m betting that the zero offset on the Pioneer wouldn’t catch the weight differences between whatever pedals I had on prior (Vector I think) and the PowerTap pedals, which would impact things with the slight offset we see above. Said differently, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the Pioneer unit here aside from me not doing a different calibration on it.
—
Ultimately, I’m just not seeing anything in any of my files that even hints at power or cadence accuracy issues. I’ve used the pedals on three different bikes (Giant TCR, Trek 1.6, and a Cervelo P3C) without issue, and compared it against multiple power meters. Simply put, it works great.
Market Comparisons:
Ultimately, there are many power meters on the market today. As in, an absolute crap-ton. And those are just the ones that are currently shipping. There are yet more that are on the cusp of shipping but haven’t really been proven in the market yet. For example, if we look at this summer alone we’ve got the following newbies:
A) The 4iiii Precision: Starting shipping in spring, working through teething pains
B) bePRO: Started shipping in early July, still to be validated by 3rd parties
C) PowerTap C1: Started shipping as well, first looks seem positive
D) Watteam PowerBeat: Not yet shipping, but things also are trending well as you’ll see here
Of course, I’ve got all of these and have been working through units in iterative bunches. In fact by the end of the week you’ll see or have seen test data from all of these (except the 4iiii Precision, which I’ve long ago noted some issues I’m having with).
A) Quarq lineup down to $799
B) PowerTap hub lineup down to $789
C) Power2Max lineup down to $499
D) Pioneer down to $999
All of which is my round-about way of noting there are many options on the market. It’s really best to check out my power meter buyer’s guide from last fall, though admittedly with these new prices and newly shipping options over the past month or two it’s a bit stale. My plan is to publish an update guide in September, just like I have in years past. That gets us past the Eurobike/Interbike new product line rush that starts in just over 3 weeks.
As for pedal based power meters on the market today however, I don’t see much competition – the PowerTap P1’s simply win. But why not Vector/Vector2 you shout?
(Warning: Rosé wine inspired Vector rant about to occur)
Well, frankly – it’s too finicky compared to the P1’s. Which isn’t to say it’s finicky period, but rather just in comparison. It’s virtually impossible to screw-up the install of the P1. Whereas Vector has ample opportunities during installation to screw the pooch. This primarily comes from specified torque ranges and the requirement for a torque wrench. And as much as I’d like to simply say you could bring it to your local shop – I’ve seen clear evidence that local bike shops the world around screw it up more than consumers do. Seriously, nobody reads instructions anymore.
Next, while Vector produces significantly more data and metrics (including the Cycling Dynamics introduced last fall), the reality is that Garmin has dropped the ball in making those tangible. They’ve had two years to do so, and at this point it’s time to call a spade a spade. This was a clear opportunity for Garmin to leverage the power of Garmin Connect to make use of all these metrics being collected. For example:
A) Why doesn’t Garmin show me my average balance over the course of a year on a dashboard item?
B) Why don’t they show me my left/right balance plotted over a wattage mean/max graph?
C) Why don’t they show me my seated/standing time averaged over the course of the last X months in % per ride?
D) Why don’t they show my trends or shifts on any of these metrics over time?
Seriously, this isn’t complex stuff. This is basic stuff – but it’s also core to the entire premise of spending an extra $300 for Vector over the P1 (which is $1,199). Or for that matter, spending nearly an extra $1,000 compared to the PowerTap C1, Power2Max, or Quarq offerings. They’ve marketed all of this data. Data that even the just released WKO4 with all of the magic it has in it…does nothing with. At what point do you draw the line and say: It’s not worth it today, see you in a few years?
Ultimately, if Vector were priced the same as the P1, and didn’t have the fickle pods and torque requirements, then it’d probably be the same. But it’s not. And I’ve yet to find a long-term use for any of the data. And while some folks are finding short-term tweaks in PCO (Platform Center Offset) in bike fitting, I suspect that number is in the sub-1% range of total Vector purchases. But again – why doesn’t Garmin surface that up in the Garmin Connect dashboard?
(End of Rosé inspired rant)
As for other options like the bePRO pedals at a couple hundred dollars cheaper, or the Watteam options? Well, both of them need to be proved a bit more. Watteam won’t be shipping in the next few months, while for bePRO I need to collect more data to determine (and even if the data is spot-on, I’ve got some concerns there about build quality and longevity).
But again, don’t just focus on pedals. Understand what your requirements are and then pick a unit that meets those requirements. There are many great options almost half the price of the PowerTap P1 (including options from PowerTap themselves). To each their own requirements.
Summary:
It’s somewhat rare that I truly get excited about a power meter. Not because I don’t love using them, but rather because for the most part the majority of new units coming onto the market today work quite well and are quite dependable. But they also can be finicky to install for the non-bike mechanics among us. For example, the only reason I’m semi-functional at installing cranksets on bikes is because of power meter installations for reviews. And for the most part, that takes a few goes before you get proficient at it (especially if you have to change bottom brackets).
Whereas standard pedals are within the realm of anyone to install. It takes a hex wrench and less than two minutes, as my video showed. And in that area – the PowerTap P1 rises above the other pedal offerings.
But more importantly that than – they’re simply accurate. And further – accurate every time without dorking with them. For that reason alone, it’s pretty much a given that once I send back these trial units I’ll be going out and getting my own pair of P1’s to use as one of my de facto testing/riding units. The ease in which I can quickly move them from bike to bike, and the durability they appear to have, makes it an easy choice for me. Of course, individual requirements will no doubt differ. For example, if you don’t want to change pedal/cleat types – then obviously this isn’t going to do much for you.
With that – thanks for reading, and as always, feel free to drop any questions in the comments section below.
Found this review useful? Or just wanna save 10%? Read on!
Hopefully you found this review useful. At the end of the day, I’m an athlete just like you looking for the most detail possible on a new purchase – so my review is written from the standpoint of how I used the device. The reviews generally take a lot of hours to put together, so it’s a fair bit of work (and labor of love). As you probably noticed by looking below, I also take time to answer all the questions posted in the comments – and there’s quite a bit of detail in there as well.
I’ve partnered with Clever Training to offer all DC Rainmaker readers an exclusive 10% discount across the board on all products (except clearance items). You can pickup the PowerTap P1 pedals from Clever Training. Then receive 10% off of everything in your cart by adding code DCR10BTF at checkout. By doing so, you not only support the site (and all the work I do here) – but you also get a sweet discount. And, since this item is more than $75, you get free US shipping as well.
Thanks for reading! And as always, feel free to post comments or questions in the comments section below, I’ll be happy to try and answer them as quickly as possible. And lastly, if you felt this review was useful – I always appreciate feedback in the comments below. Thanks!
You just saved me a bunch of money and a huge headache. Prior to your review I was considering ordering from Clever Training but I guess I will need to hold off until the Edge 1000 big is fixed. Bummer. I am worried Garmin has no incentive to fix. Thanks for giving us a heads up.
Do you have any thoughts on the Xpedo Thrust E to be launched shortly? Do you have any idea if they have the same compatibility problem with the Edge 1000?
Yeah, hopefully they’ll sort that out quickly. Having Vector folks onboard has helped Garmin in terms of power meters, my guess is that there was just a line of code accidentally added in on the Edge 1000 that basically does a check if Vector and if not doesn’t show the crank length (probably in an attempt to simplify).
Given that omission isn’t on any other units except the Edge 1000, I’d lean towards accidental oversight.
As for Xpedo..that’s sorta the never-ending ‘next month’ scenario. Every year and every event. I’m sure later this month at Eurobike they’ll say “We’ll ship in 4-6 weeks”, just like they did last year and the year prior.
That said, they’d have the same crank-length problem on the Edge 1000, since it’s basically not allowing you to enter it in for anything except Vector variants. Again, same limitation isn’t on anything else I’ve tried.
Ray, well said indeed. Let’s hope Garmin fixes this soon because that is all that is standing in my way from ordering these pedals. I want them, but I don’t want to have to buy a new cycling computer.
There’s some discussion on it within the Garmin Forums already based on the info I posted in the review above.
Some talk of the P1 not sending the correct tags, but I’m not sure if I buy that since all other Garmin products (including Epix) enumerate it correctly.
Either way, whomever is at fault I don’t think it’s purposeful and I have a funny feeling someone will claim responsibility within the next 24 hours… ;)
Thanks Ray. Awesome review as always. I was the guy who posted the Edge 1000 message on Garmin forums. I was very disappointing to see I cant set Crank Length on Edge. I spoke to Garmin support yesterday on phone and they said that its only available for Vectors. I suggested that maybe they should not then advertise themselves as being ANT+ compatible if they don’t implement the power profile correctly. I would hate to have to downgrade my head unit to solve a bug they wont fix. I also posted this on P1 support questions but heard nothing back from PowerTap.
I am not convinced. I e-mailed Garmin about it and here is the reply I received (very quickly).
***
Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I’d be happy to help with your Edge 1000 question.
At this time, there are no plans to change the settings for the Crank Length options on Non-Vector power meters. This maybe something addressed in a future software update, but we have not heard any information of this changing.
Please let us know if you have anymore questions.
With Best Regards,
Nicholas
Customer Care – Fitness Team
Garmin International
913-397-8200
800-800-1020
913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Nicholas 8995370 http://www.garmin.com
***
So here is the question now: Which device really needs the crank length setting? Do the pedals send the same data regardless of crank length and leave it to the computer to interpret the data based on crank length, or does the setting of the crank length get transmitted to the pedal which then transmit crank length specific data. If it is the former, then what is Garmin’s default setting. If it matches my crank I may be all set. If it is the latter, than is there another way to tell the pedal what the crank length is?
I sent over a note about 30 minutes ago to the PT folks asking if they’ll release/create/etc a tool to set the crank length for non-supported head units (ala Vector). In theory this would be easy via the Bluetooth Smart app they have.
Still, as for support queries, I’d be careful in that being the last word.
I am sorry to say that Garmin is not likely going to fix this. I e-mailed Garmin about this, and here is the reply I received.
***
Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I’d be happy to help with your Edge 1000 question.
At this time, there are no plans to change the settings for the Crank Length options on Non-Vector power meters. This maybe something addressed in a future software update, but we have not heard any information of this changing.
Please let us know if you have anymore questions.
With Best Regards,
Nicholas
Customer Care – Fitness Team
Garmin International
913-397-8200
800-800-1020
913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Nicholas 8995370 http://www.garmin.com
***
So here is the question. Do the pedals send the same information to Garmin computer regardless of the crank length setting and let the computer interpret the received data based on crank length, or does the setting in the Garmin computer get transmitted to the pedals and then the pedals send back crank length specific information? If it is the former, what is Garmin’s default crank length? If it matches my crank, perfect. If it is the latter, is there another way to tell the pedals the correct crank length?
I too was ready to order the P1 however I have the 920XT as well as the 1000 and don’t want to downgrade computers for power. I hope Garmin responds with a fix soon although their response does not appear positive?
I’ve posted here a few times in the comments already, but it seems to be getting lost in the shuffle. I’ll plop it in the post as well.
Garmin confirmed this past week to me (and then also posted it in the forums) that they’ll be releasing a firmware update for impacted Garmin models, most notably the FR920XT, Edge 1000, and Edge 520 to allow for crank length. They didn’t specify an exact timeframe beyond it being this fall (I’m waiting on the correct PR people to get that official timeframe), but I got the feeling it’ll be far sooner than later.
Do you know if Garmin ever released that update? I’ve been trying to find a way to change the crank length in my 910XT and it appears that the ability to manually set the crank length disappeared. I can still do it on my Edge 810, so it seems counter intuitive that Garmin would release an update to fix some of these head units, then release another update that creates the same problem on another one.
I have a Garmin 910XT and it allows me to update the crank arm length. Under the About Forerunner menu selection is says the software version is 3.20. Hope that helps!
Ok that’s good to know. I have the 3.2 software on mine as well. How do you get to the page where you can change it? When I go to Settings->Bike Settings->Bike 1->Bike Details the only options I have to change are the bike name, weight, odometer and wheel size if I select more.
As a Garmin Vector user who has struggled with the very touchy fickleness of the pedals, I wish I could exchange them straight for the Powertap P1 pedals. It’s not just installation of Vectors that’s fickle, but updating or changing batteries can both lead to a pedal no longer registering or power numbers suddenly being off.
Always good to have new options, hope the P1’s continue to do well and drop the price of more power meter options.
Completely agree. Install is always a headache that requires the help of my wife to get the torque right (she is a saint putting up with this stuff). Then first time my batteries died and switched one pod was not functioning correctly afterwards. After wasting parts of a couple of days troubleshooting finally had Garmin agree the pod was the issue. At least they replaced it at no cost. All in all they are a bit of a headache, but do seem to work well. Reading this review makes me wish I held off an extra year though to get these.
Thanks for the detailed information Ray. Always appreciated.
I received my P1s two weeks ago and have been very happy with them. The data has been in line with my Quarq and the ease of throwing them on any bike (track and TT) without worrying about BB size has been invaluable. I’m very glad with my purchase!
Is the issue with standard Keo cleats intentional or something PowerTap might tweak/fix? The odd part to me is everything else is nice/normal/easy except this.
What do they expect a multi-bike consumer to do? Always swap on the P1s? Buy a second pair of shoes?
As a user of look pedals for almost 30 years, it seem’s odd to produce such a great product but leave a major (yet easily avoidable) niggle for customers, especially when there seems to be no design advantage. does revenue from future proprietary cleat sales really outweigh those now unsure about buying this otherwise excellent product? is it now better to wait for P1 v2.0 – with this anomoly hopefully addressed?
Another great review – thanks.
Going to order a pair via Clever Training.
Been riding with my iPhone and Cyclemeter. Any way to pick up the power data from the P1 pedals with an iPhone?
Yes, for new units ordered today you’ll be already on the BT-enabled firmware version, so you can use apps like Strava, Wahoo Fitness, PowerTap Mobile, and more.
looks like it it between P2M & P1 for me at the moment, unless stages go duel sided in the not-to-distant future.
Considering they are more or less the same price +/- 10% (€land/Rotor crank P2M model), with the caveat that rides are often wet and dirty, what do you think between the P1 and P2M options?
I have some concerns about serviceability and possible water ingress with the P1 with the Northern Europe winter dirt and grime – and I have never had a pedal strike cornering but maybe the extra 5mm or so should make me nervous. Whilst the TdF was great to watch, Thibaut Pinot’s fall on Col d’Allos descent made me more aware of my pedals cornering – and don’t get me started on how much slower i was in the wet after watching the first week.
I’d also like to hear more about the water ingress…yes DC mentioned water resistant but I’m wondering to what point…just running through puddles or downpours?
I thought it was IPX7, but I’ll ask for confirmation.
With the design of the battery pod on the P1’s, it’s pretty well sealed. It’s got an o-ring and with the ability to lock it down via hex wrench, that’d be a bit better than others. I don’t believe there are any other openings into the unit except that.
I got reply they said can get wet but don’t know how wet. They did say can’t submerge in water but I wouldn’t do that…
Another question I’m wondering is what if a pedal goes out or dies…Will the pedals still provide power? I forgot where I read but you mentioned in a review that a pedal only measured from left transmits to other pedal then to head unit. But if that main pedal dies there won’t be power at all…is this the case for powertap?
No more than any traditional set of pedals. The reason the Vector has a limit is because Garmin put sensors inside the spindle. As a result, to make room for the sensors, the spindle structure got a little weaker. Powertap and Xpedo do not have sensors in the spindle, so it is just as strong as with any traditional pedal. In fact, I believe that Xpedo made the pedal for Powertap (not the electronics, just the pedal itself).
“When you search for the PowerTap P1’s it’ll find a single ANT+ ID, just like other power meters on the market today. While you may have two pedals, that communication is channeled through one pedal and onwards to the head unit. Note that you can NOT split up the pedals and give one to a friend, and at present PowerTap states they don’t have much interest in selling a one-pedal-only unit (given they already sell the PowerTap C1 for roughly half the price, that would be a more logical direction if you’re budget constrained).”
Hi Ray, great review as always. It appears your pedals came with the 0 degree float cleats (black). Mine came with the 6 degree float cleats (red). I don’t see a place to specify them when you order through PowerTap. Did you request the 0 degree ones specifically and if so, how/where?
Separately, I’ll say I got a dud set initially – the left pedal crapped out with under 10 hours of use BUT PowerTap was super great customer service-wise and shipped me out a replacement set lickety split.
Not sure if this will help anyone else as I had the same question about cleat float. It appears from the CT product page that they ship the pedals with the red cleats. I’ve contacted CT support to find out about getting the 0 degree float cleats.
We do sell a zero degree float cleat via our website and anyone else carrying our product should have them as well. Let me know if anyone needs help finding some.
whilst $20 isn’t a lot in absolute terms for a cycling accessory, i guess this whole cleat issue IS part of the powertap revenue plan. these cannot cost more than $2 to produce, but there you go….
How are the cleat durability? I have shimano spd sl. They still last me 5 years, still snug with rough wear from clipping in and out and walking during tours.
Do you think these pedals would work OK on a Fixed gear bike ? I am looking for a solution to swap between my various Fixed gear TT bikes and track bike.
I initially thought this was a stupid question, as I thought single-speed, rather than fixed (no-freewheel), but I get what you’re asking. I’d guess since you kind of brake with the pedals some of the time they’d register some kind of (possibly weird negative power?) numbers during those periods. Interesting…
Hi Ray, me again. I think you meant “water-ingress” rather than “water-ingest”. Don’t know if you already have someone who copy-edits for you but I’d be happy to.
No mention of P1 pricing in the article, even though pricing of the others is mentioned. So for completeness, the P1
pedals are $1199.
Love they are measuring both pedals. And that they provide bluetooth.
It seems that pedal-based systems are great for switching between bikes, whether you have more than one bike or are just concerned about upgrading bikes. The biggest downsides are needing to change cleat styles and a slight q-factor issue. As a SPD user the cleat style thing is what gets me :(
Re: trying to combine the data, I’m such a nerd that I wrote code to sync up two TCX records by finding the overlap where the differences were minimized- in other words, where the lines match up.
I hear ya on the SPD thing, man. I just bought a new tri bike and a pair of mid-range SPD pedals for it because that’s what I’m used to. A month later I bit the bullet and got the P1s. Although I “wasted” money on the new SPD pedals, I honestly like the fact that the force from my foot feels “flatter” across the pedals now instead of being just on the smaller SPD junction.
I DON’T like that I have to futz with clipping in more than I used to with my dual sided SPDs, but overall I think it’s a better riding experience.
Great review and for the first time, I feel like you really liked a product beyond compare which is very compeling to me haha !
One question regarding the type of crank: what about oval/non-round chainrings? Is it a bit like stage for Froome: you decrease by a certain percentage and you’re fine?
Update, oval rings are supported. Sorry for the confusion. Their statement on it:
“Non-round rings are supported perfectly with the P1. We are taking 40 individual angular velocity measurements and subsequently 40 power measurements per pedal stroke. Any acceleration/deceleration within a pedal stroke would be measured. Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports low power when using non-round rings.”
Likely just because PowerTap set aside the dev time to calculate it. Garmin has previously stated they could technically do it, but just haven’t spent that time from a development standpoint.
I bought a pair of P1’s right when it came out (first shipment)… have you seen issues with Right/Left Power ratios? I’m curious is if ts my 510 not picking it up or its the actual unit.
After my 3rd ride it stopped working mid-way and never came back. It wont read on my 510 nor does it show when i download the file to Garmin Connect. Since then it has not worked at all, almost like the function doesn’t even exist. There isnt even a 100%/0% ratio just nothing… so not sure if its the P1 unit or my 510 acting crazy. Power file and cadence seems fine other than this one hiccup.
Excellent review, I just received my pedals the other day “purchased from Clever Training”.
Question on the left/right power balance. It shows the power balance on my Joule GPS+ head unit when I’m riding, but when it’s uploaded to TrainingPeaks it doesn’t show up. It just shows a balance of 0/100%. I upload it via the Powertap App.
You mention above that you see your PB in TP, curious if you had any problems uploading initially.
Someone somewhere in the 371 comments mentioned a bug in the PT app where it’s not transferring L/R balance to TP (or maybe it was that the app isn’t correctly capturing it). Either way, I’ll bring it up to PT this week when I see them at Eurobike.
Hey Ray, this is a little off topic, but you brought it up in the review. Are the issues you’re having with the Precision firmware related, and if so were they fixed with the latest update, or do you see bigger issues with the Precision?
I bought mine threw CT while 4iiii was offering a discount to early adopters, so it only cost me $300, but I’m really hoping I didn’t screw the pooch. I’m not usually an early adopter…
4iiii says they are firmware fixable, but that the fix for my specific issue hasn’t been rolled out yet. Said issue seems to impact certain pedaling styles, which can cause oddities with power (in my case, significant oddities).
Oddly enough, my pedaling style also hosed up Brim Brothers power meter a year ago too. I guess I’m special like that.
4iiii has recently said to me that they believe they have the issue identified, but are working to test out the update first. Thus, for now I’ve tabled it.
What problems did you have with the power oddities with the 4iiii, with mine power seems lower by around 20 watts aroundmy threshold compared to what I’ve done on a wattbike and my tacx sartori smart after rolldown calibration
Thanks for the detailed review – I just ordered mine through CT.
I recall reading in a preivous post about the development of PM pedals for mountain bikes. I was wondering if these could be used and be useful on one?
Powertap’s FAQ says: stack=14 mm. That’s a bit more than other pedals. The standard Keo is also pretty high, but you can get down to 8mm or so with other pedals. Note that some manufacturers will include or exclude cleats.
It would be nice to get some independent verification.
This article says the q-factor is the same. Cornering clearance is likely a bit less, but likely not too much of a problem if you factor in shoe width.
Berend is correct on the stack height difference. Depending which pedal system you are switching from you may have to raise your seat height a little but for most it is only 3-4mm. The Q-Factor, or center of pedal measurement, is the same as Look Keo at 53mm. Thanks for the question.
No Watteam for the next few months? There go’s the summer release then. As a speedplay user running Duraace9000 which isn’t compatible with the C1 wanting to spend under $1k but very eager to train with power this is proving to be a frustrating time. 4iii accuracy problems. Stages water ingress and one sided. watteam delayed….grrrrr!!! Any advice? I guess I just keep waiting.
We’re launching very very soon- by the end of August we’ll have our online store working and you’ll be able to order the PowerBeat. Delivery is estimated in about 60 days from placing thew orders
formal annoncment will come at you in the next days- no worries, it’s hard but we’ve made it. the PowerBeat is ready
Hey Ray, any chance you can confirm compatibility with the Mio Cyclo 505 head unit? I’m thinking not as Mio hardly ever puts out updates, let alone fixes their defects.
Note that the reviews are more robust while written under the influence, and or with a lack of sleep. Gets to the heart of user frustrations in a direct way – thank you!
I have a Fenix 2 and they worked fine with it EXCEPT one weird spike where it said I output 59,000W (not a typo), thus throwing off my chart – the y axis is from 0 to 70k watts.
I’ve also seen spikes to near 60,000W using a 910XT as head unit on two rides. The TCX files for both rides show a similar pattern with a smaller but still impossible jump in power for 1 second followed by a jump to ~60,000W for one second.
Ride 1:
2015-08-16T09:03:37Z
8.8000002
263
2015-08-16T09:03:38Z
8.4799995
6303
2015-08-16T09:03:39Z
8.7399998
59654
2015-08-16T09:03:40Z
8.3299999
132
Ride 2:
2015-08-08T15:50:47Z
3.2700000
223
2015-08-08T15:50:48Z
3.2200000
2484
2015-08-08T15:50:49Z
3.4100001
63574
2015-08-08T15:50:50Z
3.2600000
281
I’ve emailed PowerTap support but I suspect the 910 might be the problem. Has this been seen with any other powermeters on the 910 or Fenix 2?
Fwiw, I have seen this on occasion with other power meters (getting more and more rare though). What’s interesting is that when I do see it, there are many cases where one head unit will show it, while another won’t.
Even more interesting is something I’ll see variations on two side by side head unit. For example I did a ride this weekend with a given power meter attached to the Edge 520 & Edge 1000. Each produced different metrics (significantly). Go figure.
Just the P1. I have uploaded my data to Golden Cheetah where you can exclude spikes (Training Peaks does it automatically) and a pop-up shows that sames something to the effect that crank or pedal based power meters can have something occur to screw up the data reporting with high spikes, including industry standard SRM.
I have never had this occur with my Stages or hub.
I talked to support for the P1, and there isn’t a way with Garmin head units to eliminate spikes or remove them from data (at least in Garmin Connect without outside tools) since they are aberrations. Training Peaks eliminates them, and you can filter in other apps (like Golden Cheetah).
With that said, if you are out for a ride and are using NP and/or TSS to gauge your workout–there is nothing you can do to eliminate the absurdly high ‘dot in time’ power spike that simply screws up the entire file (while riding).
Is this in real time on display of the Garmin? I have the edge 500 but wonder if this will be a problem. Does this effect the consistency and accuracy of power output?
Here is a screen shot of one of my rides. The one spike literally screwed up the entire ride. One can scrub it out later (not directly in Garmin Connect)–but not while you are riding (unless you want to start another activity).
Yes–it affects the real time display (see my post before with graphic). What I posted on with the graphic is what I saw on my head unit. The momentary spike screws up all the calculations of average power, NP, TSS, etc. from that point on. Post ride you can clean it up, but now while you are out there. With all that said, it hasn’t happened very often for me. The problem is that it is not predictable–so when it happens, it happens. If you scrub the second or two of false data, the rest should be unaffected.
JamesJ- we are aware of the 5 digit power spikes and are trying to replicate them but it is extremely random and has proven quite difficult.
Do you know if there are any areas where you ride with high levels of microwave transmission? If you were to go past the location where the spike originally occurred would it happen again?
Well…I thought I would send screenshots of my workout file from Garmin. This was an out/back ride on a rails to trails with really only farmland and a river nearby–so really doubt any significant microwave source. No electrical lines running nearby. I had two spots during the ride out where I had a spike. I stopped my head unit and saved and started a new file when I returned. I will show the exact same spot coming back, and at no time on the return ride did I get a power spike. So…doubt there was a localized microwave issue on two segments of that ride; and, I did re-cross the same area and no issues.
Here is the ride out with first spike.
I added several screenshots of the events (two going out on an out/back route and two comparative coming back). I should also note I’ve had two instances indoors riding on my rollers. There is perhaps the chance for some external reason for the spikes, but I do my workouts on the same equipment, computer, set up, head units, etc every time and have done multiple workouts in the same place and only had these two instances. I would think if it was some external source that it would have caused more problems (assuming microwaves/whatever would always be there).
I also had another event on a different trail–again in the country with nothing but farmland surrounding me:
I think it is a power spike output by the P1 pedals that the Garmin head unit picks up but there isn’t a setting on the head unit to ignore wattage readings over a certain level. So, I guess the answer is that if there was a way to either address the pedal OR a setting on the Garmin head unit to ignore false data (like setting a threshold for power that anything over it would not be included) would help.
My 705 started recording huge spikes a few months ago but also in speed. I could not get them to go away and presumed something must be loose inside the 705 (battery connection ?) . Switching from 1s sampling to smart recording made the problem go away but was not the best solution. I bought a 510 instead.
I was going to purchase this but seeing your data and issues, I wonder if i’ll have this problem…is it because you use more than 1 computer same time? i will only use my edge 500 and p1’s in my case however. but did you confirm with PT that its issue with ur pedals or garmin yet? i didn’t read much issues in the comments besides yours…and ray’s review didn’t seem to have issues in his testing…
I only use one device when riding outdoors to collect data. When indoors, I use one head unit device, and I have a computer that picks up the data while doing PerfPro workouts or TrainerRoad.So technically more than one thing is collecting data–just don’t ever have two head units collecting the same data. For me I set one for the P1’s and another for the hub or Stages.
I do not have a 500, so I can’t comment on if the issues I’m seeing would show up on that. I do believe you can set crank arm length with that device, My 910XT can as well, and I’m in the process of seeing if that makes a difference (i.e. not using a head unit like the 920XT or Garmin 1000 that can’t set the crank arm length).
Sorry, hit enter a tad early on the above post.
I’ve experienced these spikes too. PowerTap kindly (and efficiently) changed out one pair of pedals, but I’ve now got the same problem with the second set. Only on outdoor rides (not indoor with GPS off). All the symptoms are the same. I’ve had these spikes with two head units at once (920, 510) and just the 510 on its own.
I’m sure PowerTap will get this right. They are new equipment after all.
I notice on a garmin forum that the problem is also noted there, though they’ve suggested this coincides with an odd (high) cadence in the data file. I don’t see this in my garmin connect (but maybe the software scrubs improbable cadence reads). If I get motivated I’ll look in my XML and check this.
I’ve seen the power spikes a couple of times. It has happened 5 times over 27 rides (my wife and I are both using the P1s) and I have also seen spikes in cadence (my feet cannot move at 240rpms) and they do not coincide with the power spikes.
Is this a software glitch that I need to wait for an update for? Where is the issue (the garmin 100 head unit i have or with the pedals)? Or do I have faulty pedals that I need to return?
I am inclined to think its software since both sets of pedals have had the issue.
I wasn’t the one to find this, but on the bottom of the cleat it says “RC-7.” PowerTap may have whitelabeled Ryder cleats because if you do a search for “RC-7 cleat,” you’ll find a very similar looking Ryder/Wellgo RC-7 cleat for cheap (which is advertised as Look compatability).
Well, it’s not that the Keo cleats WON’T work with the P1s, it’s that PowerTap SAYS they won’t. I don’t have any Keos to test with, but Ray says the P1s work fine with new Keo cleats. That said, he also said the P1s don’t work with beat up Keo cleats. That may be why PowerTap says they don’t work – to cover their butts if people use busted up cleats provided by a third party.
That said, the RC-7s I found said they are Keo compatible, but again, I don’t know how true that is for new or busted up cleats because I don’t have the Keo pedals to test against.
Just seems very odd to me. All this flexibility and they assume you’re only going to ride bikes with P1s. And/or you’re going to keep two pairs of shoes?
From a response directly from Powertap om Slowtwitch: “We purchase the cleats for the P1 pedals from Wellgo, one of the largest pedal manufacturers in the world. So, our cleats work very well in the Xpedo pedals because they are the same cleats. There is no technical reason for using the Wellgo cleat over another. It is more an issue of a supply chain management than anything else.”
They also recommend these as a non-power pedal compatible with the same cleats as an alternative link to xpedo.com
Picked up a pair of Xpedo Thrust NXL as a “dummy” set pedals on eBay for $65. Plan is to leave the pedals on the bike attached to the Wahoo Kickr when not comparing data/controlling the Kickr with P1s. I can still ride if the P1s need to be sent in for service. NXL cleats are identical to the P1 cleats. Cleat engagement, disengagement and float are the same.
I don’t think they’re actually shipping yet. The Xpedo units have been a bit of an industry joke for years (like 3-4 years) of them always being “Just a few months away from shipping”.
I’ve less than 0% confidence they’ll ever ship anything functional on a power meter standpoint.
Note that despite some folks thinking otherwise, there’s no engineering cross-over between the two companies when it comes to the P1 product. The P1 was all in-house within PowerTap.
As noted in the post: I don’t currently have a pair of Polar Look Keo pedals.
(And honestly, given how much more expensive those area, and how finicky the installation of them is, I see exactly zero reason to ever recommend them)
They really sound as good as I imagined them, and for me as a Campagnolo rider it’s either a pedal or hub powermeter. All crank or spider solutions are quite unsatifying imo. I guess I’d have already ordered them if they were available in Europe…Any infos on when that might happened?
Or I might have to go with the bePro one…which is cheaper and available.
Ray, thanx for the review. It’s nice to hear the product does meet the requirements we need as a powermeter user.
I’ve already ordered a set. But two things do bother me:
1. Support edge 1000 (but i’m counting that Garmin will accept the vector isn’t the only pedalpowermeter anymore and adjust their firmware;
2. This is more important.
I’m disappointed to read there is no support for oval rings….?
With the introduction on March 17th you did answer on a question:
“DC Rainmaker replied
March 17, 2015 at 10:17 am #16
Ok, just got confirmation they will support q-rings, so all is good there.”
(this was on P1, the C1 won’t never support, I know)
I’ve got Qrings so i’m disappointed to make a forced choice now!
How is it possible on the side of PT that this functionality can change ??
Update, oval rings are supported. Sorry for the confusion. Their statement on it:
“Non-round rings are supported perfectly with the P1. We are taking 40 individual angular velocity measurements and subsequently 40 power measurements per pedal stroke. Any acceleration/deceleration within a pedal stroke would be measured. Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports [higher] power when using non-round rings.”
Thanks for the review Ray. Nice work. :)
Very promising product.
As to the above quote from Powertap, they should amend it because it’s wrong.
“Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports **low** power when using non-round rings.”
What perhaps they should say is:
“Other systems which assume constant angular velocity artificially inflate power readings when used with the types of non-round rings typically in use today.”
The only way such a non-round ring would report lower than actual power is for the smaller diameter of the chain ring to be aligned with the crank being (roughly) horizontal. IOW rotated about 90 degrees from how most of these rings are set up.
I am currently using Cyclemeter with an iPhone and a Stages crank. I can set the offset using Stages own app, if I install P1s will I be able to use Cyclemeter (or Wahoo app) and be able to set crank length and perform calibration? Abvio (Cyclemeter) support say they do not expect to support these pedals at the moment. I don’t really want to have to buy a new head unit.
I just got a set today, and I don’t see the option to set crank arm length within the Wahoo app, nor can you pull both left and right power data (the CSV, which is more or less raw output, only gives left-side data).
BLE support wasn’t something I was able to test (yet).
That said, I’ll reach out to the Wahoo guys and see what’s up there. Note though that the Wahoo app would be giving you total power, not left power. For ANT+ channels when a device doesn’t support left/right breakouts it just gives total power (since technically it receives total power and then the percentage of the one leg as another field).
But that’s odd, because I know Wahoo supported Vector left/right since I had a long discussion with them about it a while back.
You should be able to set the crank length, We don’t have a set of P1 pedals but I do have Polar Look BTLE pedals and if the P1 pedals correctly indicate the support crank length then it should show up. I am trying to get a set of P1 pedals so we can look at testing support.
In the Wahoo app we currently only support a single BTLE power meter, the P1 pedals actually work as 2 individual power meters and this setup requires some big changes to our database and sensor management, its on the todo list but today we only support a single pedal and we double the power.
ANT+ is a little different since the pedals only show up as a single power meter with a percentage for left/right.
Having to specify the crank length confuses me. Previously I have read several times that Powertap claims that the P1 learns the angle of install and crank length after just a few revolutions thanks to the built-in gyroscope.
Does really every head unit support specifying crank length? What about “special head units” like PerfPro or so?
Great work as ever Ray. Have ordered through Clever Training. As an early adopter of Garmin Vector I’ve had a mostly trouble free experience over nearly two years of use. However I agree that the simpler installation process of the P1 is a big plus and also the fact that you don’t have a pod or a connector (with breakable pins) to worry about. Cycling dynamics just doesn’t seem to have any demonstrable value as of yet and even seems to be leading to some instability and battery drain issues for some users. So I’ll be selling my Vectors once my P1’s arrive. The only issue I have with the P1 design is why Powertap want to generate extra revenue through a proprietary cleat and the fact that they need to be sent in for service, always a pain with my G3 hub.
Fwiw, in checking with PowerTap the cleat/pedal form is actually the same as the Xpedo Thrust SL pedals, and thus one could go that route for extra cleats (or pedals).
Good info, but an odd brand to follow. More so odd that I’m seeing the Xpedo’s as being Keo compatible in many reviews.. Similar to how they make SPD/MTB friendly pedals.
I have a 5 sets of Keos on my and my wife’s bikes 3-4 pairs of shoes. My hope was buy these, swap them around as needed quickly and easily. Instead I’m looking at another $500 in compatible pedals. Or I can buy 2-3 power meters.
Thanks Ray. Great to hear they are Xpedo cleats as that removes my concerns over them being proprietary and thus potentially hard to get hold of. I think it would make sense for Powertap to make this known in their product info.
Ray love your review and would love to get these pedals. My problem lies with having to use a hex wrench. I need to ride with pedal extensions. Currently with my Ultegra pedals I screw them in as tight as possible by hand and give them a little extra with a padded pair of channel lock pliers. They tend to work there way tight and I have never had a problem. Do you think this will be possible with these?
Thanks
Cheers Ray, I thought the powerbeats where pedals.
Really interested in the P1s, I have 4 bikes and they are all shimano cleats and pedals, do you know if Powertap will be doing a shimano cleat fitting in the future?
I could just keep one pair of road shoes with the Powertap cleat but I like to try and keep things compatible between my bikes.
Thanks again and great review.
Do you have a referral code for a UK site that I could buy from to help you out?
I bought a Vector S, despite the finicky install, because pedal-based was a deal-breaker for me; switching between 3 bikes with different gearing, BBs and cranks made it pretty much the only practical choice on a budget.
Now that I have saved more money to spend, would you recommend S users to upgrade to the full Vector 2S system, or honestly just ditch and start over with the Powertap P1 Pedals?
My biggest gripe has been the ‘mostly consistent’ power, that I’m never sure if it’s right or not (other user’s exp.), and if it is right, it’s roughly 10-20W too high (I compared in the lab to an ergometer and a quarq).
Yeah, that’s part of the challenge with left-only (one-leg only) power meters. You’ll never really be sure because of that legged difference.
As for going from S to full, that’s a tough one. You’ve kinda already invested there – so it’s cheaper to go that route. At the same time, your setup is more complex. Albeit in most cases once its setup (if not moving bikes) you’re good to go.
Hmm, I’ve ordered them from Clever training with delivery address in Norway. The order was confirmed without any hazzle. Yesterday I received an update about the delivery status.
In other words, it seems that they’ll ship these to Europe.
That’s what I’ve always liked about my powertap hub. You can pretty much ignore that it’s there, and it gives me reliable power. Kudos to Powertap, that they’ve kept it simple. I’m not really in the market for another power meter right now, but it would be hard to compete with the simplicity of this product.
er… you drink Rose’? :) (When I do… I don’t admit it)
I’ve got 4 bikes (I keep my old ones) with Keo cleats and 3 pairs of shoes so if they were tight fitting with Keo, I’d buy it in a second. I’m currently moving my stages around from bike to bike when I switch from tri to road.
Im pissed at Garmin. I have a Garmin 1000. I have complained that I cannot set crank length on the PowerTap pedals. Here is their response:
Dear [Customer],
Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I’d be happy to help with your Edge 1000 question.
At this time, there are no plans to change the settings for the Crank Length options on Non-Vector power meters. This maybe something addressed in a future software update, but we have not heard any information of this changing.
Please let us know if you have anymore questions.
With Best Regards,
[Garmin Support]
Even more disturbing is that a friend of mine is a triathlete and uses a Garmin 920. Version 2.5 of the 920 firmware paired to his pedals and he was able to set the crank arm length. Worked great. Recently new firmware was available, version 5.2. he upgraded and now he can no longer set crank arm length. The “crank length” choice is no longer in the menu.
Garmin is essentially saying you cannot use their head units with anything but Garmin pedals, even though my PowerTap pedals are an ANT+ certified power meter. At first I thought this was just an oversight but now its becoming clear that they are doing this on purpose. Garmin is worried about Vector sales and this is how they are dealing with it.
So I got confirmation from PowerTap that they will be adding the set crank length option in the app. However, they are slightly concerned (still researching) as to whether or not a unit that doesn’t support the crank length (i.e. the Edge 1000) would/might send the default crank length and overwrite whatever was on the pedals. They’re doing some tests and will circle back.
Hmmm this could get messy as my understanding (from personal experience and Vector forum see link to forums.garmin.com) is the crank length setting in a bike profile overwrites any default value stored in the Vector pedal and by implication a default stored in a P1 pedal.
That was always my understanding as well, and I think that’s what the PT guys are saying too. Their concern (which may not be an issue at all) would be if the Edge 1000 sent a default crank-length as part of the pairing (i.e. the usual 172.5), which would dork things up.
An ugly option here is to modify the garmin Settings.fit file with your crank length on the PC then re upload it to the edge. Alan on Garmin forums did this for me last night. I am trying it out today and will report back.
This has a strong wiff of anti-competitive behavior. Removing feature compatibility for a 3rd party product (when they support the feature for their pedals) might be good grounds for a suit or FCC investigation. Garmin is has the largest market share and thus the largest ability to do harm to the customer and limit competition.
I’m interested to know if this works – if it does, it looks like it should be pretty easy to knock together a utility program to modify the Settings.fit file to change the crank length (using the FIT SDK).
Someone on the Garmin Forums was able to take the Settings.fit from the Edge 1000 and update the crank length. But you can’t just share that because it has specific pairing/device information for each device – so it wouldn’t work just passing it around.
As for Garmin being anti-competitive – I’d really slow-roll a bit more there. First, I don’t believe anything support says, ever. They’re the last people to know (no offence to them, but they really are). Second, they found out at the same time as I posted this. I don’t think they did it on purpose, as otherwise they wouldn’t have enabled it on other devices. I think you’re really just looking at a coding oversight since the use case isn’t common.
I know discussions are happening, so I’d just let those play out over a few days.
I would assume the crank length is “bike specific” and not “pedal specific” (same crank length on a given bike, regardless of what pedals you install).
You can create bike-specific profiles with the Edge 1000 (called “activity pro-files”). For each bike, you can set the crank length on the Edge 1000 (if paired to Vector pedals).
Then, if you use PowerTap P1 pedals, even if the Edge 1000 “overwrites” to the PowerTap pedals (an assumption to be verified), it should be overwriting the cor-rect crank length for that bike profile (“activity” profile).
So, until the bug is corrected just get the correct crank length of your “bike profile” using a friend’s Vector pedals (don’t even mount them, just pair them) and then in-stall the PowerTap P1 pedals.
Question: Is there really a “default crank length” pre-programmed in the Edge 1000 for Vector pedals? If so, what is it?
.
With the Edge 1000, you can’t specify the crank length on the Activity Profile, only on the paired sensor. This is because of the sensor pool concept means that an activity profile could well be associated to sensors from 4-5 other bikes.
The default crank length programmed for Vector is 172.5mm.
I wouldn’t generally use AP/NP as a great indicator for power comparisons because it’s easy to make those two align while having all of the details be different.
hello Ray great as usual,
My question is actually I have a power hub in my tribike for 7 years now and I am looking to buy a new power meter, I thought the pedal option is best as I want to switch bikes sometimes, but …
I have a MTb and my tribike does the p1 work on an MTb bike. Does it make sense, or is there any other better solution?
Marc
Unfortunately I don’t have a mountain bike (or nearby mountain bike trails). Technically speaking you could install it on a mountain bike, but I don’t think there are a ton of mountain bikers using Keo pedals.
Seriously considering to by the PT P1, but 2 questions.
Question related to the (possible) issue with setting the crank arm length on Garmin head units: I read in a comment that besides the Edge 1000, now also the FR 920XT prohibits the setting of the crank arm length. Can you confirm or deny that? Are they deliberately doing this to protect their Vector sales?
Second question: I, myself, have both the Edge 810 and the FR 920XT, but are their any data that cannot be received on those head units, that do appear on the Joule GPS+? I know that the Garmin Cycling Dynamics cannot be displayed, because they are not provided by the PT P1, but I mean it the other way around. In other words, do I also need to by the PT Joule GPS+ to receive some data send by the P1, that cannot be displayed on Garmin head units?
Is this a general requirement for pedal based PMs that crank arm length is specified?
Here we’re only talking about Garmin head units but what about more exotic ones: for example BSX’s lactate measurement device or PerfPro indoor trainer software. Do you have to specify crank arm length with these? Are these apps capable of this?
A requirement of the physics. To get power, you need to integrate the product of the force applied tangent to the circle the pedal is traveling (measured by the strain gauges in the pedal) times the speed of the pedal. A larger circle (longer crank length) will produce more power for a given cadence and force because the pedal is moving faster. It’s a linear relationship, though, so assuming a crank is 172.5 mm when it’s actually 175 mm produces an error of 2.5/175 or about 1.4%. Looking at the plots above, that seems to be well within the actual accuracy of the measurement, so it would only actually matter for people using unusually long or short cranks. Still, they should fix the 1000 to allow crank length input; no point in allowing this error if it can easily be fixed.
Yes, any head unit that supports TSS/NP/IF will work with the P1’s, as that layer is up one level from the actual head units used..
You’ll get those on the unit itself (Edge 800 and above) as well as in Garmin/Training Peaks. I don’t remember offhand if Strava shows those natively (I didn’t think so).
Strava does not show TSS/NP/IF, and the reason is most likely that those terms are registered trademarks of Peaksware LLC (which is actually the legal name of the company that runs TrainingPeaks). The reason that Garmin can use the terms TSS,NP and IF is that the terms are used under a license from Peaksware.
However, Strava does have its own in-house terms for similar concepts, including Suffer Score, Weighted Average Power and Intensity.
Quick newbie question – if you’re looking at pedals as a source of true left/right power diffs, doesn’t the fact that you’re working with 2 different power sensors each with +-1.5% accuracy potentially throw a spanner in the works in some way?
Thanks for the write-up. I’ve been toying around with the idea of getting a power meter and like the pedal-based approach, but Vectors seem too finicky, esp when talking to 910xt from what I’ve read.
Question regarding ‘head unit’ references: Is FR910xt good enough as the sole communication to the PT P1 or is another unit needed for some of the apps you refer to? Does the 910xt allow crank arm length to be set? and is there any testing on wearing the 910xt on your arm versus mounted on handlebar (with regards to picking up PT P1 data)?
910XT works with the P1 pedals and can be used as the sole device.
You can set the crankarm length.
It will pick up the data just fine on your arm or handlebar mount–I’ve had it in both places.
Thanks for the review. You forgot to mention the blessed o-rings on the Vectors which seem to shred or stretch every other time you transfer the pedals to a new bike. Garmin is obviously so used to getting bitched at about them that they sent me 5-packs full of O-rings without even asking for payment. But, as you point out, the thing that pisses one off most are the need for the heavy torque wrench while traveling.
I think I’ll be ordering a set of P1s as soon as they’re back in stock and selling my Vectors. And on that note why not try and get some European affiliate deals set up with places like Wiggle, Bike-discount.de, etc. as I’d be happy to help you out by going through your links.
Good news there in that things are signed for a European deal for DCR folks. Unfortunately, it’s just been taking a fairly long time to get through the technical integration pieces to make it seamless for folks. :(
You did not mention cornering clearance relative to the keo pedals and high wattage differentials, like climbing at 400+ watts standing and seated at varying cadence and sprinting. Thoughts?
Still getting my head around all this and especially around those easily portable power meter option (Pedal based mainly).
Is it fair to say that PT P1 is definitely the best option if you seek for:
– Accuracy but most importantly consistency;
– Compatible with round/non-round cranks;
– R/L true information;
– No calibration required;
– Real portability from one bike to another without any risk.
And I saw a comment about service (just like SRM in a wat) being required once in a while? Is it true, how often would it be, how costly?
I also thought that the Vector2 made the portability easier than before with no need of precision wrench like the first version? Am I wrong?
300$ isn’t a huge difference but still P1 seem to beat the competition and Vector2…
Sorry for so many question but your knowledge would help me to invest quite a lot of money in something I would truly enjoy without almost possible regret.
Looking forward to order via CT to support this great work !
Wear on the pedal body and on the spindle bearings will largely come down to the mileage you do and the conditions you ride in. Riding many 1000’s of miles through the UK winter has a way of wearing out all bike components. This is what powertap say about servicing:
‘Justin Henkel · 2 months ago
The bearings in the pedals should last several years before showing any signs of wear. When they are in need of maintenance or replacement you will need to send them to us for service.’
I would agree that for those requirements in looking for a pedal based power meter, it’s really the best option out there today (cheaper pricing aside).
Enjoy – and I definitely appreciate the support via Clever Training!
Are the cleats widely available? It seems strange they’d go with the Keo platform because that’s what most of the people are on (as per their own words) only to then make it almost a necessity that people use their own version of said cleats if they want to get more than one month out of them.
If they could get that sorted and drop the weight a bit (440g is a bit hefty) they’d have a clear(er?) winner.
PowerTap alluded on Twitter to why they went with different cleats: link to twitter.com
“The P1 pedals come with proprietary cleats, which we recommend using with the pedals, it did give us a lot more freedom in terms of supply chain management and customization.”
I suspect what they are saying is that they had limited vendors they could work with (I wouldn’t be surprised if Polar has an exclusive agreement on power meter pedals from Keo). Which is why you see Garmin partnering with Exustar. In fact, it might be really interesting to know whether or not Garmin’s pedals/cleats exactly match Keo, or are just a tiny bit different enough to avoid legal issues. If you look back at some of my earlier Garmin Vector posts in an interview with Clark Foy he goes into all of the business reasons why they wanted to use a 3rd party (mainly around warranty and ownership of any problems).
To that end, I suspect PowerTap had to basically do the same thing. Just a guess…
I’m not repping to the compatibility of any cleats, but the P1 cleats say RC-7 on the bottom of them and look a lot like the Ryder/Wellgo RC-7 cleats that are $10 on Amazon.
But Garmin’s pedals, as I understand it, are Keo friendly, correct? Slightly different to keep the lawyers away but interchangeable none the less. And they claim it.
Here with powertap it is close, but not interchangeable.
If they would bless using the RC-7 cleats in Keo pedals, as Wellgo/Ryder has, that would resolve this for me. Keo’s on the non-P1 bikes, all shoes w/ RC-7 cleats, order a small stockpile of RC-7 cleats for emergencies or in case supply becomes a problem.
Look Keo cleats work perfectly in my Garmin Vector pedals.
I’m confused as to why Powertap are suggesting ‘their’ cleats aren’t Keo compatible when clearly they are Xpedo Thrust SL/Wellgo RC-7 cleats. Both of these brands are sold as Keo compatible and reviewed as working in Keo pedals by many users.
I’ll report back on my experience once my P1’s arrive.
Agree no upside to claiming compatibility that isn’t there.
Would be good to cite any compatibility that is there. For example officially confirm:
– The cleats are indeed RC-7s
– The other Wellgo/Ryder pedals that use RC-7 would work with the P1’s cleats.
These two seem simple. IF the RC-7s work in Keo pedals is more an issue I’d think. I suspect PowerTap’s testing revealed that the “Keo Compatible” claim on the RC-7 design wasn’t quite true
Thanks for the great review. I’ve always been intimidated by power meters related to how they work, installation, etc. With the ever-increasing options that are now available it seems like a good time to highly consider this tool as part of my training. These pedals look very promising to me and your insight has been valuable. Quick Question: Are there any issues with the use of these pedals with a 920XT? Will it have the same quirks as the Edge1000?
I have not tried them yet with the 920XT. I did however do almost all of my testing with the Epix, which shares much of the same platform with the 920XT.
If your 920 is still running firmware version 2.5 the unit will operate with the P1 nicely. you can pair to the P1 and set crank arm length. If you upgraded the 920 firmware to 4.2 or 5.2 (available in the last couple of months) you will no longer be able to set crank arm length for the pedal but you will be able to pair to it. The “set crank arm length” choice missing from the menu. However, in FW 4.2 and 5.2 the default crank arm length is 172.5. If the 920 detects a different crank length in the pedal, it will set the pedal to 172.5. There is nothing you can do about it other than not use the 920. The P1 pedal default crank length setting, out of the box, is 172.5.
I’ve only done 3 or 4 rides with my P1’s. I’ve found them to be great with my Edge 510, but numerous dropouts (of both cadence and power) when using with my 920xt. Any suggestions? I’d love for you to see how they go with your 920 at some point. Also, I use 165mm cranks on my tri bike and 170mm on my road bike so if Garmin update the firmware in the 920 I’d love to see an easily adjustable crank length.
I assume you’re in aero position? If so – try putting the unit on a different wrist, or just somewhere else as a test. Most of the times when I hear of dropouts with the tri watch series and power meters it’s usually due to blockage issues. These are a PITA to solve though, because wireless signals act in weird ways and it’s often down to a single device and how the signal bounces around your body/bike/etc…
Did you try and pair with the Polar V650 by any chance? Polar have advised via facebook this week that the next V650 firmware update will include some 3rd party power meter support… Fingers crossed it’s more than just Stages!
The unit I had didn’t have the BT stack fully enabled, thus, I couldn’t test that yet. Once they enable over the air updating in the next 1-2 weeks, I’ll test and post results within the review.
Ray, first off, thanks for the great review. I’ve been waiting for this one for a while now. Have you had a chance to test these pedals with the 520? Does it have the same crank length issues as some of the other Garmin head units?
Also, someone asked about 0 deg float vs 6 deg float cleats. I don’t see an option to select cleat type on the CT site.
The fact that you cannot set the crank arm length on the 1000 and on new firmware for the 920XT… does it affect you if you actually have 172.5 crank arms?
IOW, since the default is 172.5, only run into problems if you run 170 or 175, or any other crank arm length, right?
I’d be confident that Garmin is working on it… support never knows what is going on, they simply use the standard answer ‘there are no plans’ because they are instructed never to set any expectations….
Hello
For you, Do you think with this pedals the +- 1.5% is ok, work fine like a srm?
I have the suunto ambit 2 watch, but it’s impossible to wrige the crNk left, do you know if it will be possible on the future
Thanks very mutch
Mitch
Yes, as covered in the accuracy section I think the pedals are just as accurate as any other successful power meter on the market, including SRM.
On the Ambit2 watch, you can pair to ANT+ power meters, but no Ambit watches show left/right power at this stage. I wouldn’t expect any further firmware updates for the Ambit2.
I was looking forward to these. As a G3 owner with campag and shimano setups, this was going to solve a real headache. I also use the bike on the turbo and swapping tyres can be a pain.
But I’m really disappointed/puzzled by the cleat design. Was this a patent issue by powertap that they couldn’t replicate Look cleats? I can’t see how, Lifeline and other budget offerings have Look compatible cleats. It’s odd but really rules these out for me as the simplicity of swapping between bikes is rendered useless.
If I have Keo on one bike (say for racing, when I don’t necessarily want the power or weight) and my powertap on the other, I either have to:
a) Swap cleats – not a fan of this, given how sensitive my pedalling (and I’m sure most people are) to small changes in cleat position.
b) Buy another pair of shoes – one pair for powertap, one pair for Look pedals.
c) Swap the pedals between bikes each time I ride – I’m doing this at the moment because I’m down to one set of pedals, and it’s not much more convenient than swapping wheels/tyres.
I’m not sure why Powertap would go with their own cleat, surely it’s not really something that is going to drive massive sales and it’s definitely making me think I’ll stick with the G3 until a real “plug and play” system comes along.
PT themselves said this on ST, which I read as: the P1 uses the same cleats as the Xpedos.
“We purchase the cleats from one of the largest manufacturers of pedals, Wellgo. Of course I would recommend you just purchase another set of P1’s for your other bike ;) but if you were looking for another set of non-power pedals the Xpedo Thrust SL would be a good option.”
Hi Ray – would downloading the setting file from the Garmin 100 head unit and adjusting the crank arm lenght manually in the file and reloading the edited file to the head unit fix this issue?
Yes, that’s the current operating assumption by a number of folks. A few more details here in this Garmin Forums thread on it: link to forums.garmin.com
Hopefully it’ll get quickly sorted out by one or both of the companies.
Fwiw, I was able to validate that a FR920XT on the latest firmware does not show crank length as an option when connected to the P1. Epix on the latest firmware does.
I then grabbed one of a few Fenix3’s I had sitting in a bit, in particular one I hadn’t updated in a long time. That one was on firmware version 2.30, and after connecting to the P1’s it did indeed show crank length as an option.
For fun, I updated the firmware to the latest firmware, and the option is still there as well.
Im still not happy with Garmin…we have done some more testing with my friend’s 920…using another brand/model of head unit we set crank length on the P1 pedal. It seemed like our problem is solved.
But as soon as you fire up the 920, it pairs to the pedal and sets the crank length right back to the default (172.5). We set the length to 170 and 175. The 920 reset the value to 172.5 each time.
At this point I think the only thing we can do, if we want to use our 920, is to send in our “Settings.fit” file to the link mentioned earlier in the comments to get our default value changed. Painful.
The work around fix for setting the crank arm length by manual entry into the settings file worked. Alan (Thank You) over on the Garmin forum verified the setting remained post ride and the data looks very consistent with the past 5 rides on the same route using a G3 hub. Hope Garmin can get this fixed ASAP with the next update.
Great review as always! Do you know if the issue with the Garmin 1000 (not showing the zero option) is fixed? That is the only thing holding me back at this point.
No, not yet. It’s being discussed by both Garmin and PowerTap, but nothing yet has changed.
Some folks have had success getting their Settings.FIT files posted to the Garmin Forums and then someone there tweaks the file so that it has the correct crank length. Once that’s done they’re good to go.
I looked into Settings.fit file a tiny bit with some general FIT tools (a few here: link to dcrainmaker.com) – but I didn’t see those specific settings enumerated visibly in that tool, otherwise I would have wrote-up a quick how-to guide.
Thanks Ray another great review.
A related question I have regarding power meters. Some months ago you indicated you were evaluating Verve Cycling’s InfoCrank – but have not seen any recent information. Are you planning to review the Info Crank? From what I have seen on their site they claim to one of the most accurate meters that once installed does not require constant calibration. Interested to hear your opinions.
Thanks
Ritchie
Indeed, I’m horribly late behind on publishing that. The data, photos, etc… have been done for months. Just a case of me writing up the text.
Like most things here, priorities change based on reader interest. And unfortunately for Infocrank there is less interest than on other products. That said, my goal is to publish it in the next 1-2 weeks. August is sorta my grand catch-up month right now. Making moderate progress there.
Hey Ray – I’ve not been able to find any info on whether the Garmin Edge 500 will allow for crank length selection when pairing? I’d prefer not to have to get a new computer and was hoping it was possible though can’t find the info anywhere. Thanks for the help!
I don’t find the option on mine. The powermeter is paired, i can see its id if i go in the details menu (not sure of the exact name, my menus are in french). In the bike detail, i can only set wheel size. Where exactly can you set the crank length ?
Nevermind, found the option, the powermeter must be active, and it’s on the same page as the wheel size. Thanks for the info, i wouldn’t have checked this menu if i didn’t know it was possible somewhere, and sorry for the noise.
on the weights you have shown, does this include the battery too? im wondering if this weight gain on my current pedals will have much negative influence on my pedaling/energy/speed…inertia playing a role? any opinions on that? thanks again!
so, i just got my pair and tested it with a garmin edge 500. No crank length option as i feared, i will wait for a way to change it with an app (android or windows with an ant+ stick would be nice).
I noticed another thing: while doing single leg exercices, power works with the left leg, but remains 0 with the right leg. If i do the same thing with the foot clipped in, it works. The moment i unclip the left foot, power goes away. Not sure if it’s normal due to the master-slave pedal relationship, to my head unit, or if it’s a bug. Can someone confirm ?
I did my first test ride with the P1s yesterday (ordered via CT) and noticed the exact same behavior. I’m using a 500 as well. Given the right pedal warning glitch, I was concerned that it was busted…
I have a G3 on that bike as well. I’ll have to do a side by side comparison one of these days.
I noticed the same thing today. When only using right leg (left unclipped) power goes to 0w. Also, when not pedaling balance shows 100% – 0%. But when I pedal whit my right leg (with left clipped in), I can see balance shift from one left to right. Is this normal? anybody else has noticed this?
Is there any update on this? I have just purchased and am experiencing this issue too. I’m concerned that this is related to the right pedal drop-outs also. If I open a csv of the log, I can see that the balance splits to exactly 0.5/0.5 many times during the ride. This seems to be somewhat unlikely in that 1) I know I have a wonky leg, and 2) the remainder of the records show something like 5 decimal places, so to be hitting exactly 0.5 0.5 seems suspicious. Even when close it’ll still read 0.49xxx and 0.50xxx etc.
I can improve things by reading the individual bluetooth channels from the pedals, but then I need to start carrying too many devices. My pain cave is already looking too much like Ray’s!
Regarding 0 WATTS when doing single-leg pedaling drills with my right leg: I’m using the P1s, paired with a Garmin 1000, as well as PowerTap’s mobile app, and I’ve observed the SAME PHENOMENON. Right-legged, single-leg pedal drills yields 0 watts on the Garmin head unit. (Don’t be confused by balance ratings which, presumably, use an algorithm to composure right-leg data based on left pedal results.) But the right pedal does work and is broadcasting data, via the left pedal, as single-leg drills using the right leg DO APPEAR to register on the PowerTap mobile app. Presumably this is a compatibility issue with Garmin.
I asked PowerTap support about this in June and the response was:
“That’s because the right pedal isn’t spinning on its spindle. Try again, but this time rest your right foot on the pedal, without actually pushing hard. This will keep it spinning and will in turn show proper data. ”
Not really workable, I need to unclip the other foot to do individual leg drills without cheating.
I haven’t tested this since June because I’ve only just got back on the turbo and my pedals have been back with PowerTap again for a couple of weeks. I should get a replacement pair tomorrow though.
Make sure you are on the latest version of firmware, which can be checked and updated with the PowerTap Mobile App (iOS) or the Virtual Training desktop software using a BlueGiga dongle.
Here is a little background on the issue your are seeing: When operating normally (both feet) cadence is taken from the left pedal only to better manage start/stop situations for faster response time. The latest firmware allows for tunneling of right pedal data even if the left if not turning, which earlier firmware did not allow for.
It’s not Garmin, I have the same issue on a Wahoo Elemnt. I’m sure I’m on the latest firmware, and I saw the issue yesterday – but below Justin suggests it should be fixed. I will check firmware and try again when on the turbo tomorrow
Paul,
I spoke to Aaron at PT today. He offered the exact same suggestion that received, namely, “Unclip from your left pedal, but lay your left foot gently above it, and pedal with your right leg.” He went on to explain that the right pedal will transmit the data to the left pedal, but if the left pedal isn’t spinning on its spindle, it’s as if the left is “asleep” and will not broadcast the data to a Garmin device. However, based on my experience, the right pedal data does make it to PT Mobile. I’ll try their inelegant hack tomorrow to see if it works.
Aaron also noted that they are working on allowing the pedals to make separate (left and right) BT connections to the Garmin and similar head units, which would retire the issue altogether.
Justin,
While my firmware is up to date, Aaron at PT reports that ONLY if the left pedal is spinning will it broadcast data (which is consistent with my experience). I’ll test their hack (resting the left foot, unclipped, on top of the pedal so that it spins) tomorrow.
I contacted PT last year about this. They didn’t at the time do any testing with a garmin head unit, just their own! There is also the issue of display when coasting going to 100-0 rather than 50-50.
I’d like to hear about this as well. I had asked here already too like how does the data transmit…also emailed powertap but no response yet. I was about to purchase but not confident enough…
– did you try to use rechargable AAA batteries? Just curious if they will work
– On the cleat matter: what I read on the tests of the Xpedo Thrust pedals is that they are Look Keo compatible, but the float of the Look Keo cleat will be 0. If you want float, you need to buy the Xpedo cleats.
– Does any body know if there are spacers for these cleats? My left leg is a liitle shorter (and left calf muscle is 5cm less in diameter; which is the reason that any left only approach for me is crap; keep on guessing) and by adding a spacer of just 2 mm I could notice a power increase on my tacx of about 10 watts. Probably I can reuse the Shimano SPD spacers and may be with the help of a Dremel make them fit. They come in a pack for just 6-8 euro’s.
btw: nice test and I’m on the point of ordering a pair. The ease of use/installation is a great selling point
Bikefit.com has some options that may work. I’ve ordered cleat wedges and they work great for my knee pain. I did not like the screws that came with the wedge kit, standard flat head & philips heads instead of hex but you can order longer shimano ones from other sites.
Just got my P1’s and I could re-use the Shimano spacer. It is so much bigger that there are no problems clicking in and out; sticks out 5mm. Must say that mounting the cleats takes more time than installing the pedals… lol. Long 3-day weekend ahead to test them with my Garmin 510. Will be riding a lot :D
First impression on the roller this evening is good. Happy with the purchase and a nice present for myself :)
The Shimano spacer (2mm) is 5mm longer than the cleat. And I mean the spacer that I use for my left leg to compensate for a shorter leg; it is between the cleat and my shoe. I added a photo to show what I mean. The other solution is to get the Dremel out and get rid of the part that sticks out.
Oh I thought it was a spacer between the pedal thread and the crank arm thread making it wider. Would that be the q factor? Still learning the lingo :-)
Nope, Q-factor is the distance between the two crank mounting points for the pedals (link to en.wikipedia.org). These pedals have no effect on the Q-Factor.
I don’t tend to use them a ton, since it’s not like you’re actually going to shift balance mid-ride to account for it (many have noted that attempts to change balance actually results in less overall power output).
For over a year Training Peaks had an error in its auto-import from Garmin Connect and reversed the power balance numbers.
I detected this bug when I had a pedal problem and my balance was 100/0 on GC but 0/100 on TP. I notified TP last week and they acknowledged the problem and quickly corrected it, but noted that their new import code will only apply to future rides. Balance data in the past (up to last week) is reversed and always will be.
As an FYI, I’ve added a new table into the review showing compatibility. For lines with TBD, feel free to test and post back the results here. Please ensure you’re on the latest firmware if/when testing.
You’ll find the table at the end of the ‘Head Unit Compatibility’ section, here: link to dcrainmaker.com
Hello.
Can you tell me, with P1 and the ambit 2, if i want to know the real power with a 170mm crank lenght, it’s the power on the screen 1,4% highter or 1.4 % lower?
Thanks very mutch
Assuming it thinks your cranks are 172.5, it will read 1.4% higher than you’re really producing. Since the unit thinks your pedals are moving faster than they actually are, it will overcompute the power.
Looks like Clever Training doesn’t ship these to Canada :-(.
I’ve tried the local bike shops, but none of their suppliers can give a date when they might get these in.
Anyone from Canada been able to order these, and if so, from where?
Thanks for the review, just ordered via CT and shipping to the UK I hope!
Is there anything official from Garmin or PowerTap on the Edge 1000 crank length issue, or will I just need to manually edit the settings file as referred to earlier?
PowerTap has stated they’ll be providing a tool to set the crank length, while Garmin hasn’t stated anything officially yet. It’s on my list today to hit up them for an official answer on if they’ll be updating the handful of Garmin units that don’t support it.
It’ll impact more than just the P1’s though, for example, bePRO needs it too.
Anyone experiencing issues with reading dropouts ? I have Edge 810 and sometimes power data goes blank (as does cadence) for a few seconds. This morning almost no data for a period of 10-15minutes with spikes of data showing up only for a second or two. Both on Edge 810 and 520 head units. Maybe it has to do with two units picking up P1 pedal data at the same time ? Batteries are good.
Was this inside or outside? If inside, interference from WiFi can certainly be an issue for ANT+ in general (occasionally), outside usually less so. If you had a heart rate strap – did it also drop-out? Or any chance there was a GoPro running on the bars?
Any chance that perhaps the battery is bad? Even with a brand new battery I’ve seen occasion issues where the battery was simply more or less DOA to begin with.
There’s no issues with multiple ANT+ head units collecting data at once (the power meter doesn’t even know they are there).
There are some obscure issues with Vectors and the use of multiple Edge head units so it is possible that the same could apply to the P1’s.
See link to forums.garmin.com post #322
“Occasionally a head unit may start requesting configuration information from the Vector system at such a rate that the Vector system can’t keep up with the requests, and as a result it starves out the power data. In that case you would have to restart the head unit to resolve the situation. Having multiple head units paired to Vector (eg. an Edge and a Forerunner) simultaneously may exacerbate this situation, especially if they are making conflicting requests. The newer Vector firmware mitigates these situations as best as possible, so it’s a good idea to update the Vector firmware if you suspect this is a problem.”
I should have added that if the two Edge units have the crank length set to different values this can definitely lead to conflicts and incorrectly displayed power data when using Vectors.
Yeah, no doubt there. Though, I wouldn’t expect it to zero out power. If you have two values, it just means someone is showing the wrong value (or both, if one of them does a set).
well, it is the two edge units that somehow screw things up. When I turn off edge 810, the other one immediately starts showing proper power and cadence. I run latest firmware on all hardware. So it seems that I must pick one edge for my workouts. Thank you all for suggestions and swift replies.
Same experience here, using P1 with Edge 510 with crank length set at 175 and 920XT where crank length cannot be set and is by default 172.5. As soon as I turn on both simultaneously, I get mostly zero power and cadence readings with occasional ridiculously high spikes. Turn off the 920XT and the 510 gives proper readings.
I should have added: no problems when recording to TrainerRoad app via Garmin USB Ant stick and Edge 510 simultaneously, but problem starts as soon as I try to add the 920XT to the mix. I was hoping to record to 920XT and 510 and compare to see how much the values would be out on the 920XT with the default 172.5 (incorrect for my bike) crank length, but found this to be impossible due to the loss of data when trying to use the Garmin units simultaneously.
From our testing this issue is because the two Garmins are bombarding the pedal with Crank length set requests. The Garmin device is very aggressive at setting crank length. The 920 will not allow the user to set the crank length, but the 510 will. the 510 sets it at 175mm, but since the 920 is also paired, it sees that the crank length is no longer set at 172.5 (default), so it sets the crank length right back to 172.5. Then the 510 sees the change and sets the length back to 175. Its a loop of frustration from the pedal’s perspective. The pedal gets into a state where it will not display proper power because the base power calc values are constantly changing.
The only way around this is to have both devices using the same crank arm length. The only way to currently get the 920 to use a crank arm length other than 172.5 is to send your settings.fit file to Garmin and have the default changed (same with the 1000).
We tried changing the default in our settings.fit with a hex editor but the changed value kept getting set back to 172.5. We suspect there is some sort of check sum associated with default crank length among other stuff. The Garmin engineers have the special tools to do this.
Bottom line is if you want to use your 920 or 1000 with the PowerTap P1 Pedals and your crank length is anything other than 172.5 you have to send Garmin your Setting.fit file. Setting crank length with any other device and then hoping to use one of these two devices will only set the crank length back to the default value in the Setting.fit (172.5 if it has not been modified)…
Or talk Garmin into a firmware update that allows these devices to set crank arm length on pedal-based power meters other than Vector pedals.
Is it worth going to the trouble of asking Garmin to edit the settings.fit file to change crank length by 2½mm (to 170 mm or to 175 mm)?
In these cases (170 mm or 175 mm instead of 172.5 mm), the “error” in calculating power is less than 1.5% (2.5/172.5) and that is less tan the “accuracy” of the pedals measurement of power.
Interesting. That’d explain why I’d never seen it before, since I’d always have the same crank length set (or, not applicable). Nice findings, thanks for sharing!
I have been using PowerTap’s P1 Pedals paired to my Garmin 1000 for the past 6 weeks now. My crank length is 172.5mm which should be the default. I have been experiencing a power spike once a week and only once per ride.
Could this be a common power spike or could it be related to the issue with not being able to set the crank length on the Garmin 1000?
Didn’t read all the replies–so I apologize if I’m redundant.
I have the Garmin 1000 and 920XT–neither will allow you to set the crank length–and it indeed comes with the default setting of 172.5. Problem for me is that some of my bikes are 175 or 177.5. Turns out the 910XT will allow you to do the crankarm setting (which I have–was about to sell it).
I have been communicating frequently with the PT support people–who are very helpful. They are looking to see if they can’t add an option in their mobile app to do the adjustment.
I am not seeing the same comparative power output readings between the P1 pedals and my hub or my stages power devices (the power readings from the P1 are significantly lower at higher sustained watt levels). I have done several indoor rides and am working with PT to see what is afoot (I have sent several indoor workout files for analysis). They really want this to work, and I have been pleased with their engagement.
Note that if the crank length thing is blocking you, currently a moderator on the Garmin Forums is helping out anyone that asks with the updated .FIT file for your crank length. You post your settings .FIT file and a few hours or so later he sends you the correct crank length that you requested. Many folks here have done so.
A good fix until Garmin fixes the outlier units to correctly support it.
Any news about european seller? CT would be my choice but I’m warried about customs and duties that sometimes are applied to goods shipped from US to Italy.
Anyone have experience on these issues?
I just had a chat with them a few minutes ago, they’re working to nail down the exact date (one that can be depended on) from PowerTap today – hence why they just changed it until they can be 100% certain for future orders. Obviously it’s a high demand product, but hopefully they can work it out quickly. Thanks for the support!
cheers, I was probably on chat to them at the same time! Hopefully the order I placed earlier this week where they said 5-7 days won’t be delayed that much!
I ordered my P1 pedals on 6 August from CT and received an email today stating their are delays in shipping due to strong demand. I’m a supply management specialist by trade, so I was not surprised by the delay. It you order these pedals, be aware there may be shipping delays. I’m sure I will have my pedals soon.
Yeah. I’m sorta optimistic that when Garmin releases the Edge 810 Strava update (firmware update), it’s something that’ll just be magically fixed. I have zero rumor-basis for that, other than just some little hunch inside my head.
The right sensor missing I’ve seen on 920XT, Garmin 1000 and 910XT. Did not seem to affect the power data (that I know of). The pedals on first start up go to ‘sleep’ in 10 seconds–so I think it’s sometimes the time from when you spin the pedals and activate your head unit and if the right pedal has gone to sleep, then maybe it’s not being ‘seen’?
I’m more worried about a drift I see in power readings, especially at higher watt outputs. This is a comparison between my PowerTap hub and my stages. The gaps are best seen indoors, riding on my rollers (with a flywheel and resistance fan wide open/Kreitler rollers) where the fluctuations seen riding outdoors because of terrain/wind/start and stop/etc. make it a bit harder to see identifiable potential problem areas. You can sustain steady watt output at defined levels (like 107% FTP) and watch a slow but noticeable drop in watts on the P1 pedals. I’ve had the hub looked at including zero offset, and Stages is zeroed everytime. The Stages and Hub are very close.
This is a computer based workout with 2 min at 107% FTP, 4 min at 100% FTP, and then 6 min at 93% FTP with 3 min recovery in between. The recovery sections are very close. The efforts over 300W are pretty far apart. First pic is the data without smoothing, the second is with 15 sec averaging so the lines can be better seen. The Hub is the blue line, and P1 the red line:
This is one where I did 7×40 at 127% FTP/60 sec recovery. The first set of high wattage has a sizable gap; the second set they are much closer. Again the lower watt segments are very close throughout. Hub(blue) vs P1 (red). I have shared with PowerTap and what they are trying to figure out is if there is an opportunity to tweak the P1 pedal or if it’s an issue with my head units communicating with the pedal, a combination of the two or something else. What I do know is that the differences are between two other power meters vs the pedal–so less likely it’s a problem with 2 devices and not the P1. I really like the pedal, and I think the answer will be found. Just putting this out there to see if others have seen similar things. I have done several workouts with PerfPro and set one ‘rider’ to see my hub and the another ‘rider’ to see the pedals–and the data is the same. My next step is to only use the 910XT which I can set the crankarm with and unassociate with my 920XT and Garmin 1000 and see if I get something different. Again, PowerTap personnel have been very helpful and supportive:
Just installed the PowerTap P1 pedals and did my first ride w Garmin 810 updated to the latest firmware and I was gettin the “right sensor missing” message, so it doesn’t seem to be fixed. But it doesn’t seem to affect the power reading — I suspect it’s only to do with the right sensor not being “awaken” and therefore not yet seen by the left pedal, which transfers data to the garmin, since as I understand the right pedal communicated with the left pedal and the left pedal then with the head unit.
Another interesting thing I noticed though was the Balance — I had 54%-46% avg balance. When I was pedalling smooth at ~2w/kg it was even more around 57%-43% difference. At higher 3-6w/kg it got down to 52%-48%. Only when I was standing up on the pedals at 8+w/kg did it even out to 50%-50%, and sometimes went over to 48%-52%. But the left was always higher on average. I wonder if that’s really to do with my legs, the left one putting in more power, or if it’s anything to do with the way the P1 works — if I don’t pedal at all and start a new lap on Garmin it says 100%-0% until I start pedalling, it seems to favor the left reading, at least that’s how it felt like on the first ride.
Correct on the 810 – we haven’t seen an update from Garmin there yet. It’s not limited to the P1’s though, but a variety of other left/right power meters that can trigger it (Infocrank, bePro, etc…).
I think the pedals are accurately reporting the L/R differences. At lower watts/stress my right (opposite to your experience–and I’m right handed) is greater than the left (like 48 to 52); however, when I’m riding at or above threshold, I’m nearly 50/50 (with at times the left LESS than the right).
I’ve never seen it flip the other way (meaning, my right side is either 50% or greater). I think a better way to assess your ‘sidedness’ is to look at power balance when you are working hard–which can vary for watts/kg from person to person. When you are at FTP or higher–it’s hard to focus on your pedaling because you are focused on “breathing” and surviving the interval. :)
I’ve had the pedals for weeks, so my experience is over multiple rides/multiple days. Just wanted to note that I don’t think the pedals ‘favor’ the left.
Have compared P1 with Pioneer and Vector with Pioneer. Power values from my right P1 matched my right Pioneer, but left P1 was repeatedly higher than left Pioneer; at least overall they were consistent. On the other hand, my left Vector matches my left Pioneer, but my right Vector was repeatedly higher than the my right Pioneer; overall, the Vector-Pioneer comparison shows a lot more variation than the P1-Pioneer. (Will post my P1-Pioneer comparison data details later on my blog page.)
When you think about it, i’d say it’s natural that individual pedal pairs of independent left-right power meters might show some left or right bias, the same way that a spider- or hub-based power meter might show some high/low bias.
Just got new P1 pedals, used them on two rides. On the second ride I paid attention to L/R balance. Similar to your experience, my left leg appeared much stronger than the right, 58/42. The imbalance seemed related to how much I was spinning versus “pushing”. At the same power, the faster I spun, the more the left overshadowed the right. By shifting up and pushing harder, the right leg showed up stronger. Not sure yet whether I believe the meter. This might be a quirk of the pedals.
Can pedal spacers, also known as knee savers, be used with pedal based power meters? Not needed with my current bike but new ones I’m looking at have a narrower Q.
Just checked, it does not (also tried removing the sensor and re-adding, no change). To be fair, typically these sorts of updates would be in the testing pipeline a few weeks or so (certain product groups it’s longer than others). So my guess is even if they had made a decision late last week to add it, we probably wouldn’t see it until the next update.
I sent in a bit of an argument for it to Garmin earlier in the week, and they confirmed they received it, but noted that many of the folks are out on vacation this week that’d be overseeing those decisions.
Aside from portability/compatibility as you noted, the other thing the P1 gives you is left/right power. The value of which is debateable. Otherwise, I’m seeing very solid results with the C1 to date.
Have Powertap indicated to you whether compatibility with more cranksets (Ultrega 6800, say) will be coming to C1, or will I have to factor in the cost of a new crankset? If so then the price difference between C1 & P1 vanishes.
John- while we have interest in making the C1 compatible with as many cranks as we can the 4 bolt asymmetric cranks would require an entirely new power meter from the ground up. I understand your situation completely as I had DA 9000 on one of my bikes that got replaced. If you do decide to purchase a new crank to go with the C1 remember that your existing crank does have value. At least it will help offset the cost of the new crank.
Any chance you have two different head units connected to it?
Someone reported near identical details back a few days ago, and in their case they had two different head units – with conflicting crank lengths set – which caused virtually the same thing you’re seeing.
Ray -i wasnt able to replicate the issue on my road bike.
i was able to run the garmin fenix 3 watch and 810 concurrently with no power drops. both recording at the same time. i didn’t test one not running though. During ironman i will be using the watch and bike computer at the same time.
im wondering now if it’s a di2 ant+ issue on my time bike.
I wouldn’t think it was a Di2 ANT+ issue, unless the Garmin unit is stumbling on multiple streams. Fwiw though, I did approximately one of the weeks of testing with them on my TT bike, which does have Di2 over ANT+ (didn’t see any issues there). As noted, most of my testing with the PowerTap P1’s was with Epix and the 810 though.
Does anyone else have problems waking up the P1 pedals?
Got my P1s couple of weeks ago and otherwise they work like charm, but slave pedal just won’t wake up by spinning the cranks/pedals. So, before every ride I have to remove/reinsert battery of the slave pedal to wake it up.
Update:
No help from PowerTap today. Their 1at rep couldn’t help me and the promised return call didn’t happen today. I’m sure they are busy but I’ve wasted a lot of time on this and am a bit frustrated. I can’t find any help on their website.
Went for a ride and tried Abvio’s Cyclemeter. It worked! Paired and showed my power data from both pedals.
FYI… If you’re looking for cleat covers to protect the P1 cleats, Lauren Hannes, Powertap’s customer service manger, emailed today me to say the Exustar E-CK5R model has been tested and found to be compatible with their pedals. Unfortunately, Exustar’s Dannie Nall just informed me that their US disti’s don’t have them in stock. He’s trying to get some into the channel now.
When should I consider a c1 over the p1? Is the c1 more accurate with more features than pedals?
I remember reading Ray comment that c1 have pull up force? I thought p1 will do the same similar to vector Garmin?
Are c1 as good as the quarq? I plan in future to have road and tri bike in future. I have only road at the moment but not sure get aero wheels or tri bike, probably save mute money and get wheels and power meter?
Accuracy-wise I’ll assume both will be the same (for total power). I don’t have a final C1 unit yet (still a prototype), so hard to say still.
C1’s can do estimated left/right, which is really closer to measuring push/pull force than left/right. But it’s not showing that in any of the same ways as Vector does. For now it’s just left/right.
I put the C1/Quarq/Power2Max all on the same podium in terms of goodness.
FYI, the three links to the PowerTap P1 via CleaverTraining.com at the end of your review result in “We looked everywhere but could not find the page you are looking for. Luckily we have a lot other pages and products that are really amazing, you should check them out.”
Dunno if that’ll result in you’re missing out on you well deserved commission.
Thanks for an excellent review, as always :-) I have enjoyed my new P1 pedals a few weeks and is very satisfied. I have one problem though, that I wonder if you or anyone have an answer to. I use Joule GPS+ as head unit. The power balance shows perfectly in the computer display while pushing the pedals, but the data is not transferred to the exercise file, so this data does not show up in PowerAgent and Trainingpeaks. I use my iPhone to upload the files to my Powertap cloud account. Any information is helpful. Thanks
PowerTap engineering is in contact with the couple people who have seen it, to try and figure out where the issue is precisely (i.e. head unit connection, power meter itself, etc…). They’re also monitoring posts here, so I suspect an answer will come quickly.
yourself and this site is really an invaluable resource. personally i will be committing to with p2m or p1 (perhaps stages if the go dual-sided) over the next few months, and the reliability of the p1 over the tried-and-tested p2m will be crucial in the decision – along with the usual.
Just wondering if anyone has had their pedals shipped from Clever Training as I believe they were due a shipment this week and another at the end of this week.
I spoke to them yesterday but they couldn’t tell me if my order would be fulfilled by the next delivery or not :(
Hey, I have another question. Mainly because it’s a “new product” that just came out and seeing the issues some are having. I’m wondering if it’s safe to just get these and assume the issues will be resolved similar to that of Garmin vector? (Hopefully not over many years…) This can be fixed via firmware updates right? I know powertap has many good reviews but this will be my first huge investment! Other than looking at quarq,p2m, vectors, the p1 send like the one I’m going to purchase just need some confidence boost please! Thanks guys
I think there’s different categories of items to look at that folks have seen (keeping in mind, we’re talking single-digit percentages or less right now of units shipped).
A) Crank length setting problems: This is wholly a Garmin issue, and isn’t limited to being a problem for PowerTap, it’s also a problem for others. This in turn has caused some oddities a few folks have reported where two units were ‘fighting’ over crank lengths – causing droppages.
B) Right sensor not found: I’m semi-declaring this a Garmin issue as well. I actually just saw it tonight when using a newer Edge 520/1000 with the Verve Infocrank in the exact same ‘wake-up’ condition as seen on the P1. I don’t see this on all Garmin units, so not sure why it’s different. Either way, it’s a harmless error as far as I can see.
C) Random and rare high spikes (i.e. 50K plus): I think this is the only outstanding issue where there isn’t a known solution, or, even a known cause. But rather something PT is working with those that are seeing to track down. By my rough count this is total 3-4 people.
D) Pedal simply not waking up: PT seems to know the issue there for anyone that sees that, and it’s just replacement. Unsure if that was an early manuf issue that’s since been resolved.
To start–I like the pedals and am hopeful the glitches will be addressed with firmware updates.
A. True as it may be that it’s a Garmin head unit issue with the crank arm setting, the reality is that a bunch of us have that to collect our power data. So for now–eyes wide open for those who have such ahead unit.
B. I’ve seen list with all my Garmin units (910, 920 and 1000). Agree with Ray–it’s a warning without apparent real issue.
C. The high spike issue is a problem. I have had three sets of pedals, all three exhibited the behavior. I’ve posted some of my locations previously. It really screws up the data while riding–not that you can’t with some apps post-ride scrub the false data. With that said, if you are in a race and had a high spike and use your head unit to throttle your efforts–it gets messy. Also, currently within Garmin Connect you can’t scrub the bad data (at least not that I know of). With my current pair of pedals, it’s happened at least once a week. If one could set their head unit to ignore spikes like that, then that would be another way to address during the ride. That would take Garmin/others to help out.
D. I think it was an early issue with the G sensors on the right pedal that they have worked out. They are very good about taking care of it. I wouldn’t worry about this.
E. OK–I added this one. I have seen some funky stuff with power accuracy that I’ve posted before. It was not isolated to one set of pedals. I have 4 power meters (one hub, two stages and now the P1) and the P1 reads consistently lower (as I’ve noted) with the others very close to each other. I am providing my ride files to PT and they are engaged with getting an answer. I got the P1 because I could port it between my two tandems (where I have no power meter) and my portable bike, and any time I travel and use a third party bike.
regarding “C. High spikes”: there are more than 3 or 4 people concerned, but aren’t all vocal here. I also had a 60kW spike once, with a garmin 500 on a long ride where I hit the stop button before lunch, and started again manually after. The spike was on the restart, and it only happened once, so I didn’t feel necessary to report it before.
i am very much jumping the gun, but your E) lower reading / drift over time would be fairly crappy if you didn’t have other PMs on your bike to compare to.
I’d definitely report any high spikes you see to PowerTap, even if you don’t see it again simply so they can try and get more data points to develop a bit of a pattern. Just the scenario (i.e. head unit type, riding condition, environment) in which it was seen is probably immensely helpful to them.
Yep, a spike here as well; 54.401watts Froome eat your hart out :) Have send my .fit file to PT with all details (serial, firmware version etc). Because I work with Golden Cheetah I can fix the power spike but of course that should not be the case. The online Garmin software is very limited in my view and I even don’t need a glass of Rosé to say that ;) You can’t fix spikes or what ever obvious error and GC is far better in analysis and comes with a model for your FTP and the like.
In the meantime: great amount of data and lots to ponder about. On my Trek with 172.5mm cranks I get a bigger difference between right and left than on my old Cannondale with 170mm cranks. To early to call, but I will be testing this, have now to instrument to examine what is best.
I had 2 rides with one spike of 2 seconds each ride. I passed the files recorded with the issues to Powertap customers service. I bought a Joule GPS+ head unit and all my rides with this new head unit have been done/recorded perfectly normal. It seems that the spikes issues is a problem of communication between some Garmins head units and the P1 pedals.
The garmin unit is simply picking up what is sent to it. The joule head unit might have a setting defaulted to exclude the spikes so you don’t see it. If you have your garmin set to one sec recording you will eventually see it is my bet. Hopefully the issue can be pinpointed. Garmin might get around to allowing for an option to exclude false data, but I guess I don’t see it as a “garmin” issue.
While generally true, there are definitely cases where one head unit will pickup a value (false or otherwise) and another won’t. I’ve seen it many times in testing.
That said, given there’s more than just one person seeing this, I’d say the issue lies closer to PowerTap than Gamrin, unless there’s some sort of interpretation issue going on (sorta like the Right Power sensor drop warning message*).
*Speaking of which, I can now confirm seeing that not just on P1’s with the most recent Edge 810/520/1000 firmware, but also on bePRO and Verve Infocrank. More interestingly though, in the case of the Edge 520 – it’ll actually give up on the right sensor entirely if you press to start the ride (saw this on both Verve in recent days).
I have experienced power spikes in the data recordings of a P1 (paired with an Edge 510 which showed clean data) on a NPE WASP, but that combination showed other issues as well: data fields that you’d not expect from a power meter like heart rate and calories (is this some development firmware that uses unrelated data fields for debugging purposes???), some power spikes that seemed like accumulated power data followed or preceded by zeros, WASP iOS app crashing after a while.
Haven’t contacted either support about this yet. Currently using the P1 with a Garmin head unit and the data seems clean when watching in real time or graphing in Excel.
Yeah you have to sometimes be careful on the WASP data as it’s prone to showing more randomness because it’s recording at a higher rate (but downsampling currently for Excel). I’ve been seeing a ton of crashing on the iOS app of late and have let the WASP guys know (but have to hit them up again). I’d encourage you to poke them as well, just to add a bit of fuel there to the fire.
(For the last month or so, I’ve mostly just been using Garmin head units for comparison due to the crashes.)
Thanks, good to know it was just a coincidence that I started to notice the WASP app crashing frequently at about the same time when I started using the P1. :-)
Wondering whether you’d have any thoughts about the frequent power spikes as well as weird data fields like heartrate, gear and calories from the P1?
Mostly did not have spikes with neither Edge500 nor Edge520 so far. I also don’t remember the connected head unit displaying any of these irregularities. I know the WASP sometimes swaps data columns but not sure about these effects.
Hi, Isolated the problem with missing power balance data from P1 and Joule GPS+. The iPhone app does not transfer the power balance data when uploading over the air. The data is in the head unit, but just not come over. To be able to get the power balance data, you need to use the cable and download to Poweragent or other compatible services using cable. Kind of bad since, this over the air uploading of data one of the best features of the new Joule GPS+. I am not sure how to address this issue to Powertap. Sounds like we need an update of the iPhone app?
Odd, I know the app has an updated planned for it shortly (nice detective skills). I’ll ask them on Monday/Tuesday when I see them if that’s part of it.
you spoke already a few times about a “PowerTap-App”. Sorry – I think I’m to stupid, blind or what ever to find this app for android.
Please – what’s the name of this app because I hope in future they’ll do upgrades of the pedals with this app.
It’s called PowerTap Mobile. At some point in the quoted “mid August” range it was planned to allow updates of pedals. I’ll find out on Monday where that timeline stands.
Sure that this app is avaiable for android?? Hopefully I don’t have to buy “an apple” because I’ve the pedals now.
When you speak with them can you ask for an app in android??
The app isn’t available for either right now to update your pedals, so you’re not alone. The app you see is their older app that downloads primarily from the PowerTap Joule GPS+. The iOS version doesn’t connect to pedals yet either.
So i set my bike on the trainer connected it to my garmin 810 and the fenix 3 AND using the bluetooth connected it to TrainerRoad on the ipad.
Still having the drop outs. The power and the pedal %/% balance #s would disappear intermittently from my Fenix 3 & Edge 810 BUT on the TrainerRoad Power it stayed on through out.
Now out of frustration prepping to test my other bike – i changed garmin profiles on the 810 while still soft pedaling and maybe by shear coincidence the drop outs stopped! my crank length on my time bike is 165 and the road is 170mm .
I then created another bike profile on the garmin (using 165 crank length) and the power and balance #s were showing normally.
Then i went back into the original garmin bike profile (time machine) and the power stayed on still.
Now i think it’s a coincidence because my fenix 3 had the same power drops at the same time as garmin 810. i never changed anything there. There are no bike profiles.
So there seems to be some weird ANT+ transmission issue with the pedals. Bluetooth works well.
I had pretty much the exact problem with my 510. First ride was perfect, then I set the cranklength. My 920xt had zero issue as long as my 510 was turned off. Turn it on and bam power meter drops out completely. I ended up factory resetting my 510 and not setting the cranklength and haven’t had an issue since.
This sounds like the issue talked about further up in the chain. Basically, the devices are arguing over what the crankarm length should be and overloading the ANT+ channels, causing drops (Bluetooth is obviously over a completely separate channel, so it’s connection is unaffected). I’d expect this to go away when Garmin fixes the issue or Powertap releases their update.
I know your comment is a year old but worth a try – does the bluetooth P1 to TrainerRoad on iPad work well? I know with some bluetooth connections the power reading is halved, but is that not that case here?
Just asking as I’m hopefully going to be using that set-up. (And will use ANT to connect to Zwift on my laptop)
i know you have a chart above for compatibility but as far as crank length for garmin 500 can anyone confirm this wont have issues setting up?
also does the Garmin Cycling Dynamics really benefit in cycling training/technique? is this when they measure where your foot is applying pressure/force on a particular point of the axle? i think i saw a road.cc or roadbikereview on youtube and he mention eventually P1 will have this feature…not sure, though i wonder if those feature only come with P2 or even P3?? omg im overthinking this, is there a trade-in program if they really have newer versions later in future?
does pedal based power measure down force as well as upward pull?
As noted in the Rose Rant, I see no benefits for Cycling Dynamics at this time. And even if/when PT does something there, it’ll be via their own platform/system since Garmin has locked down their variant of it. I believe Justin up above noted some plans there.
I topped 58000 on my first ride while paired to my 810. I got the right power sensing missing error and my watts were jumping all over the place while pedaling at a constant rate on a flat road. It would jump up and down anywhere from 20 to 100+ watts.
User serviceablilty of the pedals is a cause for concern. I suspect that since everything is built into thr pedal body, should the bearings need to be changed, they have to be sent back to PT USA. I can imagine a downtime of at least 3-4 weeks and the cost to be substantial. That would be my deal breaker.
i actually emailed pt about this, $100 to service bearings and recalibrate,etc. not sure how often you’d have to do this though. :( is that a deal breaker?
I’ll check with them on it. Traditionally PowerTap/CycleOps has regional service centers, so it falls within logic this would be supported in the same locales.
Im sure PT will have to sell their p1 calibration machine to regional shops that are concerned about after sales support of their customers. I wouldnt imagine that to make business sense though. How many p1 pedals sales to breakeven the cost of the machine?
I’m not sure why they would, wouldn’t make much sense. Garmin Vector doesn’t, Power2max doesn’t, Quarq doesn’t, Polar doesn’t, nobody does. There’s no reason to have a dynamic calibration machine in the field, most service centers would simply swap out impacted parts.
In my experience with various pedals, only Shimano’s Dura Ace pedals require no replacement of bearings even after 5 years of heavy usage. I got a mavic zxellium slr ti and after 4 months the bearings’ gone kaput. They should really have their service centres decentralised and equiped with the machine to service and recalibrate their P1 pedals, otherwise it’s a deal breaker for me.
According to my brother the engineer, bearings fail in 99% of the cases before their end of life due to wrong installation. If a bearing fails in 4 month it is clearly installed in a wrong way. I expect the P1 to last at least several years and a power meter is a precision instrument and needs service once in a while. So buy a power meter from a party capable of servicing on a regular basis. Think Powertap fits that bill; they probably will concentrate the knowledge in the beginning knowing that a new product on the market needs extra care. Once the knowledge has been build up you can start to fan out the knowledge to several locations and make the maintenance more spread over the world. I fully understand that I bought a new product and will have some teething problems (e.g. powerspikes and perhaps some bug I haven’t encountered yet). But holding the product in my hand and riding with it gives me the feeling that these pedals are made to last. And yes: the proof of the pudding (or can I better say cupcake ;) ) will be in the eating.
Nevermind about the pedals being installed incorrectly.. the point i’m making is, pedals have wear and tear parts. Depending on luck and the environment in which they are used, the lifespan varies. Im just suggesting that P1 servicing should be made available to rest of the world to ensure faster and more eficient servicing. Furthermore, PT is not a pedal maker and the durability and performance of the pedals itself are yet to be proven.
I’m not saying that the pedals could be installed incorrectly, but that in most cases the bearings fail prematurely because of wrong installation during production. And yes, of course a service facility close to home is nice to have and that will be there in the near future; see also Ray comment.
In the meantime: these pedals rock! I learned in a few rides and some testing/training on my Tacx trainer how much influence the riding position has on my power, but also that the difference between indoor and outdoor power is caused by riding with a too high cadence outside. Just by tweaking my position I have a better L/R balance. Think that these pedals could be a must-have for any bike fitter; easy to install on the clients bike, put them on a roller and see&show where the benefits are in power from a better bike fit.
I hadn’t thought to test my position on the bike to see how it affects my power output.
If I can find that sweet spot between power and comfort…
… I know what I’m doing when mine arrive :-)
Did you/anyone manage to calibrate these pedals with the Edge 500?
Mine just sits there, until the pedals go to sleep.
I’ve even tried with the PowerTap iPhone app to “Zero” the pedals, and the same thing. The app just sits there until it they go to sleep.
I use an Edge 500 and “calibrate” will show up automatically everytime I switch the device on and activate the pedals. After some time the dashes will turn into a figure and then you just exit the screen.
Thats it.
The pedals are working with with my Edge500 , 520, PolarV800 and the powertap app.
Did you activate right pedal then left pedal? Whats your firmware?
I actually contacted PowerTap support, they went away for a few hours and did some playing I think.
They also found issues calibrating the Edge 500. They recommended to use the app to do it, but also found a bug in that and are looking at a fix.
So if yours works…you’re lucky it seems!
My 920 calibrates instantly.
From Powertap: Your P1 Pedals are calibrated. They just may or may not need the offset adjustment due to ambient temperature changes. Manual zero process allows for the pedal to fast find the index. Without going through that it can take up to 3 min of continuous pedaling for our pedals to complete the standard indexing process. (Finding one another)
I would like to use one pair of the p1 on two bikes. Because I don’t want to have shoes with different cleats I would like to use only the original powertap cleats. Could anyone tell me which second pair of ordinary pedals I could buy which fits the p1 cleats?
I understood that they are somehow compatible to Look Keo Standard. Does that work without any major problems?
Thanks
I was trying the opposite of this problem getting more cleats for different shoes. The cleats have rc-7 listed on them which implys (and looks very similir): link to en.wellgopedal.com so i’d imagine that these: link to en.wellgopedal.com might be useful.
I haven’t tested any of the above, I shall be buying a set of them cleats shortly to test.
Thanks for the info.
I have to buy a pair of pedals without powermeter for the second bike. Therefore I would like to have a system where I can use my shoes with one kind of cleats for the P1 and the ordinary pedals.
Hi. I officially purchased my first power toy, I’ve joined the power thirsty cyclists! But still need to wait…that pre order is way too long for my patience…:'( how to endure this pain? Anyways I really hope they, pt and Garmin put their heads together to fix everyone’s issues before I get mine haha! I’m sure I’ll have questions later!
I’ve confirmed with Garmin folks this evening that a fix will be forthcoming for the FR920XT, Edge 520 and Edge 1000 to add/re-implement crank length. Regarding the situation they noted simply that “They’re going to make it right”. The exact timeframe is a bit unclear, but it sounded more sooner than later.
And just in today from the Garmin Edge 1000 forum…
All,
We are aware of this issue and we are working to release software updates to allow crank length input when using the PowerTap P1 pedals. No timeframe is available on when this update will come out but you should expect Garmin to support the following products:
Should this sort the issue I had at the weekend where I rode with both my Edge 510 (with the crank length set at 170mm) and my 920xt on my wrist. Neither worked at all. Cadence was mostly reading zero and watts varied between 0 and 45w. I turned the 920xt off, but the Edge still didn’t work. On restarting the Edge however it was fine. I have a feeling you said there may be interference between the two as they are sending different length signals to the pedals and the pedals get confused? Is this likely to be the case or do I need to investigate further?
Yes, unless you specified the 920XT to have the 170mm crank length via a custom .FIT file, the two will conflict apparently and will cause the drops that you see. Otherwise the 920XT would have been sending a 172.5mm vs the 170 from the 510.
I’d head over to the Garmin Forums and upload your Settings.fit to the thread and get an updated 172.5mm one.
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about crank length. Crank length is not controlled by the pedals. The pedals send exactly the same data to computers and head units regardless of any settings. The computer and head unit then takes that data and manipulate it based on the crank length setting in the computer or head unit. That is why you need to set the correct crank length on each and every head unit. If it was the pedal that did the calculations, you would only have to set it once.
Thanks Ray. There would be no reason why I couldn’t get them to send me two FIT files is there, one with 170mm cranks and one with 165, as I ride different crank lengths on my Tri bike and road bike? It wouldn’t be a big deal to change the FIT file before each ride until the Garmin update comes out.
To NY Attorney. That was my understanding initially, that the pedals just sent out a signal that the head unit reads. However, with two units running at once (a situation I often used whilst riding with my powertap hub) neither unit worked at all. The crank length setting does seem to be an explanation for that. I guess I’ll only know for sure once I have the updated FIT files or Garmin update the 920 software so I can set the crank length maually.
so with the price drops of 20% for P2M S & Stages(€ alloy) and Vectors available for €1000 on big german bike discount sites. … How long can P1 sustain their €1299 price?
Not sure it can hold it’s RRP until 2016…. thoughts?
I thought the new black pods that come with Garmin Vector 2 pedals addressed your finicky vector installation issues? Am I mistaken I believing that a torque wrench is no longer required to correctly install tge vector w pods and pedals?
I’ve been using tye original Vector pedals in cold and wet Norway for 2.5years and have probably 35000km on them plus a few hundred hours indoors. So far they’re still working fine. The install can be a little tedious but only takes minutes and I’ve managed just fine every time I’ve flown with my bike (couple times per year)…it is always nice to have a third hand to squeeze in tye rear brake but not necessary.
My main concern for these power tap pedals is tye battery life. Riding in sustained temps below 5C gives me about 60-80hrs battery life with my vectors. In autumn and winter I can be out for 4 hours with a Max temp of 4or 5C so battery life is important to me. I’d be worried that tye powertap claimed 60hrs would drop to 30or less which would mean changing.batteries every 2-3 weeks or risk loosing power data mid ride…which would drive me nutz.
The Vector 2 pedals are identical to the original Vector pedals and still need to be torqued correctly. This is really required to ensure that the spindle initial installation angles don’t change during subsequent use. Early Vector 1’s did suffer some wear issues with the internal spindle bushing and this was resolved with a running upgrade and Garmin would swap out early adopters pedals for a new set if requested.
The Pods have changed in that they fix around the pedal flats rather than between the crank arm and pedal spindle which makes installation a bit easier.
On the downside quite a lot of users report problems using the latest version 3.5 firmware that Vector 2 uses.
Received my P1’s last on Thursday and I have now done a few rides on them. Really easy to install although getting started documentation doesn’t mention the need to download the online manual or reference the Powertap Mobile App. Powertap (RC7) cleats worked in my Keo blade pedals and Keo cleats worked in the Powertap pedals so maybe this isn’t such an issue. Of more importance is that I have also experienced a power spike to over 48,000 watts during a 4 hour ride on Saturday. Happened during a steady state effort on a flat road. Hoping Powertap will get on top of this really quickly.
Initial Feedback – I have done 6 rides (2 routes 3 times each) with the P1’s; the first two rides (2 routes) with the included 6 degree pedals and on both rides had single power spike of approx. 30,000. Changed cleats to the zero degree float for the last 4 rides (2 routes 2 times each) and no power spikes. Will continue to monitor.
On another note – when I look at the 2 rides with the power spikes with Strava and Power Agent I do not see the spikes at all in the power analysis section. I only see it with Garmin Connect.
Question – For those seeing the power spikes, which apps/software are you using? Wonder if this is Garmin related….
As JamesJ says if you use Golden Cheetah or WKO you can see and edit out the power spikes. Luckily Strava and CyclingAnalytics null or zero out the spikes or your Training Load would be messed up.
I have only seen the spike in one of my 4 rides but that is no surprise as it likely a strange edge condition perhaps to do with incorrectly reported cadence (just a hunch).
Wink: I agree an Android mobile app is needed. Also the iOS version need a crank length option as for example I use Cycleops own Virtual Training app on the iPad and not being able to set the crank length means I can’t get a correct power reading.
I received my P1’s last week and was really sad that I can’t find a phone app that works. I’ve recently been using the Wahoo Fitness app on my Android Phone. It sees the pedals and records just fine, but the data seemed way off. I talked with Powertap tech support and they said it was because I was unable to calibrate and unable to set the crank length. I then borrowed by daughters iPhone and used the Powertap iOS app and was really surprised that it also couldn’t set the crank length or calibrate on that climb it measured 138 watts.
After further consultation with Powertap they said I needed to use a Head Unit rather than a phone app, so I bought a Joule GPS set the crank length and climbed the same hill and it measured 252 watts. Then today I went back to Wahoo Fitness app on my Android phone hoping that the calibration would have allowed it the possibility to record better data, but it reported 143 watts :(
So AFAICT you must use a Head Unit with the P1, does anyone have a different experience?
I’ve logged a bug in our Android app, its only displaying the power for a single pedal. We don’t support duel pedals in either app but we do support a single pedal correctly on iOS (e.g. we double the power from 1 side).
What’s the latest update on the Wahoo Fitness app? I am about to pull the trigger on the P1 and want to make sure this fix is already out or coming out soon before I make the purchase. Thanks.
Cheers Ross,
In this vector 2 install clip link to youtu.be they say as long as they reach the minimum torque tye power reading won’t be effected. I guess it’s always hard to be certain without a torque wrench though. But with the new pods install seems pretty simple to me. You don’t need a third hand to stop tye pod riatating and hitting tye crank arm as you tighten them up.
I guess I would still take my torque wrench with me when I travel just to be sure. But then I take a smaller torque wrench for tightening stem and seat post bolts too….doesn’t everyone?? ;)
Yea, I’ve pointed out that same clip to them – and they agree that it’s a bit unlclear in that clip. But have noted very clearly to me in e-mails back that a torque wrench is required for Vector2.
So I got a set of these pedals and I’m completely invested into the Wahoo system. A couple of points:
Don’t buy these if you don’t have a compatible head unit. The Bluetooth on the pedals is pretty spotty (had trouble connecting from a few feet away), and there are no apps for the iPhone right now that will pull L/R power data right now.
The only file format that I know of that handles L/R power distinction at the moment is the .fit format, which is a pain in the ass to work with because it’s not xml based. Wahoo has been saying they’re going to move to .fit for years but I haven’t seen any effort in that regard, and after looking at the .fit SDK I’m not sure I blame them.
The pedals themselves are good quality, and the clip in system is easy and effortless. I was able to draw power data from the pedals into the Wahoo app, but the data is blended before it reaches the phone (all data comes from the left-hand pedal, the right disconnects when you start up a ride).
In short, if you’re not already invested in the power tap system of products I can’t recommend these at the moment.
I checked with Wahoo about it earlier today, they aren’t quite sure why it’s not working, but are going to try and get ahold of a pair of P1’s to figure out the deal.
Also, are you sure that .TCX doesn’t support L/R? As for folks using .FIT – most other companies do so these days, so I don’t buy that too much. I suspect the reason for them is that there’s just little reason for them at this point since .TCX for their purposes works fine and is fully compatible.
I suspect part of the challenge on BLE compatibility right now is how much of it’s changing. For example, a bunch of companies made shifts back this spring to accommodate changes to specs that have been semi-loose on how people implemented them (i.e. Polar different than Suunto different than Wahoo different than PowerTap). That caused breakages and then more updates (albeit for the better). Heck, even Polar released yesterday a power meter update for BLE designed to improve support only to actually have broken it on Stages (the most widely available BLE PM).
Can’t find left right balance in the tcx xsd definition (link to www8.garmin.com) and not in the link to garmin.com xsd. by the looks of it Garmin needs to update tcx for this. Or some other manufacturer should define an xsd for a xml file with L/R balance and other measures. It is probably one of the teething problems of the growing powermeter market. More players enter the market and the consumer is frustrated by the lack of standards.
The .fit file format is just kind of a nightmare to impliment, is the problem. In order to code things easily for it you need to use their SDK and API, and surprise surprise, there’s no Objective-C (native iPhone programming language) examples or code base within that SDK. So Wahoo would have to code one up from the C-based examples or make a fully custom one based upon the info in the file, and since .fit isn’t based in XML that’s a bit of a nightmare.
As for L/R support in other file formats, I know that neither gpx nor its extensions support it (and GPX is kind of flawed to begin with since it won’t let you do training rides with 0 distance), .tcx doesn’t appear to have any garmin-based extensions that will allow it (and Garmin is unlikely to support them in the future since they’ve moved on to .fit to my knowledge), and .wf runs into the same problem as .gpx.
Wahoo’s .csv output DOES have an indicator for Left vs. Right power, but on the file that I created last night the power data only transmitted from the left-hand pedal, and the values fell into the regular power column (the left-power column had all 1’s, the right-power column had all 0’s, so no help there).
It’s interesting that the RFLKT pages setup even has a field for L/R pedal contribution, but unfortunately it doesn’t look like it works with the P1s at the moment. It’s interesting that when I synced up the pedals last night it showed both pedals as having connected, but as soon as I started my workout it only showed the left pedal as connecting (the right showed as disconnected). I wonder if maybe Powertap hadn’t updated their firmware to channel data from both pedals yet? Either way, without the proper support in an output file it’s kind of moot anyway.
We don’t currently have support for duel BTLE pedal in any of our Wahoo apps. Our API (that nearly every fitness app uses) does support duel pedals but the problem is that each app needs to handle the duel power meters, this is much more complex than the ANT+ implementation where they are a single power meter with a simple L/R percentage. Its on our todo list, but as I mentioned on another comment it requires a lot of design changes in our database and connection manager, this is why you see one pedal disconnect.
Unfortunately PowerTap didn’t reach out to us for support and since everyone uses our API on mobile devices, if we don’t support it, its basically impossible for anyone. I am trying to get some P1’s so we can update support and at least confirm basic functionality.
We have been talking about FIT support for a LOOONG time, its probably the oldest item in our backlog thats still valid, it just keeps getting pushed down the list. We have the FIT SDK integrated and we really do want to add support, I just don’t know when.
That makes me weary…reading all the little negative aspects makes me sad that I already bought them…2 more weeks in pre order, wonder if I should cancel it now
Well i have had my P1’s for 10 days now and rode about 200 miles on them, my verdict is they are sublime! I am still waiting, like everyone else, for an android app to update over the air in the future and of course the garmin update regarding the crank length……….fingers crossed those items get sorted ASAP.
In terms of accuracy i have tested them against my stages PM, i usually average between 360 and 390w on a 20 minute FTP test, this time of the year around 360 – 370w i did a 20 minute FTP on the P1’s and managed 364w for the duration, this ties in perfectly with approx 12 months of data i have collected from the stages PM.
Initially when i first installed the pedals i used the supplied batteries and on the first ride experienced terrible power drops, i changed the batteries for the next ride and the drops went. The only issue to me then was the left right balance, it definately favours the left leg, i was getting 53/47 balance and over the last 7 days managed to get this closer to 51/49 i have notably pedalled harder on the right for a period of time to check the balance and i get 51/49 right / left, i then pedal notably harder on the left and get 58/42 i do think the right pedal lags behind the left a little so hopefully Powertap can look at this inconsistancy??
To date though, amazing product, easy to install and very accurate, no power spikes noted and i do detect that when you power up to 600 – 700w for about 40 second stints they are very smooth and consistent, softer pedalling and the power drops more than the stages does but with 8 strain guages in each pedal i suspect it is far more accurate at callculating the torque in the whole pedal stroke than the stages, hence harder pedalling resulting in better more smoother power data. I did an ultimate power test on Monday and managed 315w for 2 hours and 10 minutes, they never missed a beat…….i even turned on the balance icon on the garmin 1000 and get real time left/right balance as i ride, this is one feature that is not locked down by garmin so take advantage, the garmin 1000 has a cycling dynamics screen and the power balance works on that screen which is great!
All in all an amazing product and i would definately recommend!!!!!
i think I may have also experienced the power spike… not sure though because I think I might be capable of 45,000 watts ;-) Okay… maybe not. It doesn’t seem to be frequent occurrence though since with 6 rides (about 300 miles) and it has only occurred once. Does anyone know if there is a way to have Garmin Connect ignore the abnormal reading? (I think I read that there was not but thought I would ask).
Also, a little off topic, this is my first foray into training with power so if anyone has advice on blogs to read to read to maximize my use of the data it would be appreciated. Thanks
Basically sharing the same as you – testing P1 for 3 weeks, few spikes up 4500W and amazing L/R reading during ride on my Edge 800. I also noticed there is no a huge difference when using default crank lenght (while riding Ultegra) or shorter of 0,5cm (SRAM Red on TT bike). I can still feel “the comfort zone” and then keeping in is hard enough to provide power metter advantage.
If your P1s are like me, you might notice a few more spikes by exporting your .FIT file to a .CSV file and then importing it into Excel. I use this tool for the conversion:
Then when I look at the power file, there are plenty of places where anomalies occur. On the head unit, I think it’s a lot harder to spot them because the smaller spikes get buried in all the data– or I’m just not watching the head unit near the time that the spike occurs. i can’t go for an hour’s ride without getting a half dozen spikes– or my wattage dropping in half when I’m pushing the same effort (even though my PT g3 hubs running at the same time say that my wattage hasn’t changed at all).
Currently, the P1s aren’t a reliable training tool for me. Today, I was riding on the trainer for a half hour recovery ride with 6-minute ramp ups. I had my 810 recording my P1s and my 920xt recording my P1s. Everything seemed fine and consistent between the P1 and G3 until the last 6-minute set. During that set, my G3’s were saying that my power was a constant 230 watts but my P1s were jumping all over the place for the full six minutes and that my overall average was 169 watts over the same period. It was almost as if one pedal’s watts weren’t getting counted because my power undulated between 50% and 100% of the G3’s power readings. I’ve got a line into Powertap to discuss as I may just have a defective unit.
Have you contacted Powertap tech support, they were reasonably responsive to me, although the answers weren’t exactly what I wanted to hear, they did communicate.
My pedals were reading way low, turns out you can’t use a phone to get the power data, no existing app works. Not form them or anyone else as far as I can tell. So I had to buy a head unit, I bought theirs, a Joule GPS+. Theirs works, but i can’t use my wahoo speed/cadence device because the Joule doesn’t have complete Bluetooth support yet. So not perfect but good enough for now.
Been a busy couple of weeks for you! What are your thoughts on the Powertap C1 power meter? Given the price discount vs the P1 pedals, what does the C1 ‘give up’?
I like it, but it’s different than the P1. I’ve got a unit that I’ve been using on and off, and just received the most recent pre-prod unit as well.
In many ways though I put it in the same camp as the Quarq Riken and Power2Max units. So it’s really down to figuring out which fits your existing bike setup the best. All of them have pretty much identical features/functionality (and very similiar prices).
Great review ! Will you also write a long one on the C1 chainrings power meters ? I hesitate a lot between P1 and C1 and would like to make sure I am not doing the wrong choice…
I ride on road and home trainer but always on the same bike. So do you think that buying the C1 would be the good choice for me ?
Price of the C1 is much more attractive. The only problem I “have” with C1 is that the smallest ring in front can not be less than 36 (I use a 50-34 and really like it).
What do you think ?
Yes, I’ll also have a C1 In-Depth Review out once they have final product. I’ve been using on and off beta variants, but obviously for a power meter wouldn’t want to base things on that.
Ray, question I’d love you to look into. Riding my P1’s with a Garmin 510, power readings seem correct. If I unclip my right leg power drops, as expected, and balance says 100-0. However, if I unclip my left leg power (and cadence) both drop to zero.
Hey Richard, I think I can answer that one, the leg pedal is the master pedal and all data is sent to the head unit via the left pedal, if the right pedal battery dies the power from the left pedal is doubled to maintain power readings, if the left pedal battery dies before the right then no power will be indicated on the head unit at all. Personally I hope powertap change this via firmware update so each pedal talks to the head unit independently!!
So you reckon that if the left pedal is unclipped and hence not registering cadence the pedals are presumed to be asleep? I did wonder if that could be the case. Interestingly I also tried running the iPhone ap at the same time, via Bluetooth, with the Garmin 510 connected via Ant+. The iPhone app was registering half power the whole time. Definitely a few bugs to iron out. Have to say though, none of them bother me – so long as it talks accurately with my Garnin 510 and my 920 once they update the crank length setting then I’m happy with them. Though I do want the pedalling dynamics to be not too far away and working with WKO4.
I tested it this evening and it is a little curious. With the Garmin 510 (fw 4.20) I get the same as Richard when only using the right pedal: 100-0 But if I use the Wahoo fitness app and look at the device menu for the right pedal: it registers cadence and power while being clipped only in the right pedal. The Garmin at the same time says 100-0. The right pedal is sending data! (and checking the left one it reads truely 0) Now clipping in the left pedal and almost do nothing and have your right leg do the work I can get a 4%-96% balance in the Garmin. btw: in the main traning screen of the Wahoo fitness app the power drops to 0, while it reads data from the right pedal.
It looks like a software / data interpretation issue. PT already noticed that a lot of apps need to have changes in order to interpret the data from right and left without the left being the master.
As mentioned above in another reply, I experienced the same behavior during my first ride with the P1s (purchased from CT). I tried right leg only because of the right sensor warning message. Power shows 0 (and balance shows 100-0 as it does when power is 0). Because of the transmission via the left pedal, I could understand this if the left pedal died or had no more battery, but it’s a little odd that just unclipping the left foot results in a 0 power reading immediately… I’m using an Edge 800.
(WILL I STILL RECEIVE A POWER READING IF ONE PEDAL LOSES BATTERY POWER BEFORE THE OTHER?)
I would presume that if nothing is being sent from the left pedal then no data will show, but simply unclipping does seem odd as the left pedal will still be “active”
Recently, I purchased a pair of PowerTap P1 pedals. These also transmit cadence readings to my Ambit 2S. Though, during my rides the cadence readings are inconsistent. I noticed cadence droping to zero during time trail efforts with confirmed continuous pedal movement.
Previously, I was using the Giant ride sense speed/cadence ANT+ sensor to measure cadence. I’ve removed the cadence magnet, and disabled the cadence pod in movescount. I still use the ride sense sensor for speed measurement.
During my initial rides with the P1 pedals, the readings were on/off all the time. During my latest ride, the cadence readings didn’t come up at all. No settings were changed between these rides.
According to my knowledge, the power meter is dependent on measuring the revolutions to be able to calculate the applied power, P=(F*l)/2pi*n. So the fact the the signal droppes out must be related to the transfer between the pedal and watch. If the pedals weren’t measuring cadence, the power readings would also drop to zero. P1 Batteries are replaced with fresh ones.
My question; has anyone else seen such issues before regarding communication issues between the Ambit 2S and PowerTap P1 pedals? Is there a quick fix to solve this?
I’ve sent this to Suunto and Powertap as well, as I suspect that this has something to do with the ANT+ communication in combination with the ride sense sensor.
I only removed the magnet, as I’m still using the combined sensor to measure speed. I have disabled the cadence POD in Movescount though. But I’ve got a gut feeling that the Bike Pod stil sends 0 cadence and overrides the pedal’s signal. I’ll try and completely remove the Giant speed/cadence sensor prior to a ride, see if that helps. Do you know how to unpair sensors in the Ambit series? I don’t see that possibility in the watch / Movescount.
Have you ever seen different ANT+ sensors hijacking each other?
PowerTap was stating something similar:
“Hey Theo,
Cadence will not affect the power reading on the P1s. Both are measured in different ways by different sensors. They are both broadcast from the same source in the same way… so it might be the another sensor hijacking the cadence signal.
As for an android PowerTap Mobile app, there is a catch. Each phone manufacturer makes their own customizations to the Android system, some of which can cause conflicts. So, those apps take the longest to develop. I do not have an ETA for you.”
Their answer about cadence not affecting power readings doesn’t make sense, as the circumferential speed is needed to calculate the actual power. Therefore the correct cadence measurement is needed. As is the crank arm length as previously discussed above in relation with the Garmin units discussion. The fact that they both broadcast from the same source confirms my theory. I expect the Giant speed/cadence sensor doing the same.
It’s disappointing that the android app won’t be comming available soon though.
Yeah, so that’s what I was concerned about – just removing magnet and not sensors. I’ve seen issues in the past using that approach with Garmin devices, as it’ll confuse them. The reason is that the sensor is still sending the data – zeros – so while I’d say it’s likely not causing you’re problem, I’d definitely try a ride with the sensor left at home.
does this effect other meters as well (p2m)? Dual Speed/Cadence sensors are pretty common so that would be a pain.
Perhaps it would be possible for the Powertap ioS App to make is so that you can choose to disable cadence from the ANT+ transmission, so the pedals would use cadence (as needed) to calculate power and other metrics – but not send the Cadence unit parameter to the headunit via ANT+/BTLE?
If you agree Ray, it would be great for you to send a feature request – or let us know that this is not possible – and that a speed-only sensor would need to be bought :)
I would guess that there are far more Speed/Cadence combination users than separate considering how ubiquitous the GSC 10, let alone all the Trek/Bontrager Duotap and Giant RideSense Users.
I would go as far as describing dropping Cadence due to sensor interference a bug.
Considering that I dont believe GSC 10/RideSense/Duotap can be installed onto a Gramin headunit as “Speed Only” (I may be wrong) – and based on the assumption that the P1 has the ability for the user to manipulate/select settings(?) – i would put the ball in powertaps court
Hello, I’m a fan of your review work! Congrats!
Any news about ambit 3 peak compatibility and P1, I intent to buy a set of pedals next october.
Thanks.
saw the following issue posted about on facebook (and elsewhere) …..
“P1 right side pedal has the red/green LED jammed on, battery still has 1.5V output tried new battery and LED stays on. Garmin can no longer find right pedal.”
Thanks for the indepth review DC. As a result, and on the recommendations of a fellow racer, I got the new P1 pedals a week ago. Got them home, put in the batteries, screwed to my cranks, turned on my Garmin500 head unit and waited for the magic. The unit for the cranks OK, but it told me that the was a “power meter software mismatch. Please update your software”. Are you serious? They’re brand new, why should I have to update anything to get them working? Tried off and on a few times, same display. Managed to calibrate a couple of times, and thought I had somehow just bypassed an erroneous message, but when I took it for a short ride up a steep hill, got ‘0’ reading from the power meter. Took it to the LBS where I got them from, and they tried to suggest it was the 500 being too old and not being updated to accommodate the new technology. I wanted to get a new 520 as soon as they were available anyway, so I got one of thto, thinking that would solve my problems, but it came up with the very same message. Also said the R pedal was missing, but I wasn’t worried about that because my mate had the same message and said he just ignored it and still got left/right power on his Garmin1000. Just to be certain it wasn’t a Garmin problem, I paired the pedals with a fully updated piece of crap Magellan (mio) 505, and although I didn’t get the “software mismatch” message, I still got no power output readings.
Has anyone else had this problem/have a solution? I have been using a G3 PT hub for 12 months wiout a problem, so I’m very surprised that they didn’t fire up straight out of the box, and very disappointed. Picture of screen message attached…..
Weird, I’ve never seen that message on an Edge 500 in my life before (and Google can’t seem to find anything either).
I’d ring up PowerTap first thing in the morning and start there. My guess is that they’ll be able to get you straightened away pretty quickly.
(Just as a general rule of thumb for other folks, I don’t usually recommend going to your LBS to troubleshoot, but rather just calling the manufacturer – especially for power products. The reason is that as awesome as the LBS’s are, they just aren’t going to be technically deep enough to troubleshoot error codes on products these days, especially new products. In this case, while you wanted the Edge 520 anyway – I don’t think that made any difference here – and their advice was incorrect initially anyway – as it’s fully compatible. In fact, it’s actually more compatible than the Edge 520 right now is, as you can’t yet set crank length on the Edge 520.)
In any case, hit up PowerTap first thing in the morning and would be curious to see what they say.
Frank, Have you tried to put only a battery in the left one? Suppose (this is a long shot) there are two different versions of firmware on the left and right pedal? If only the left pedal works it will double its output and ignore the right one, ‘thinking’ the right one has gone dead. You can at least see which version the left pedal is. In the properties of the Garmin screen for the powermeter it will mention the firmware version. If you get still the same software mismatch message than I’m lost. Btw: the firmware version on my P1’s is 1.90.
Ive got what you call ” piece of crap Magellan 505″ and its flawless. In fact it hardly ever gives me problems compared to the crap Garmins ive had. How that company survives is beyond me with their issues.
Maybe its just you Frankie boy, you seem not to be able to use technology that well given that screenshot!
Oooh, a bit harsh Steve – no option to orientate the photo when I put it up…..as for the Magellan, I got one when it first came out so I’d have some maps when I went riding in Europe, but the touchscreen shat itself to the point I couldn’t type anything anymore, constant freezing, one drop of water on the screen and I couldn’t even swipe. Full replacement, and the new one wasn’t much better, although at least the keyboard hasn’t gone wierd. Anyway, this isn’t about Magellan, and I like my Garmin?
Have got onto the local distributor, who are looking into it with their supplier – he hadn’t heard of that problem either. In the meantime, my LBS are going to swap my dodgy pair for another set they have in the shop that ARE working properly, so it won’t be my problem anymore, and the distributor can have a really good look at his leisure.
I was told by Powertap’s facebook page that if your crank is not 172.5mm, then you’ll need the crankarm length param. In anycase, I have the p1 on order. I’ll see if it works on my 705. I have a feeling it won’t show L/R power, just total power. We’ll see. I’ll update you guys.
Like James (above), my power data isn’t very consistent across my power meters. I just got my P1’s a few days ago so my experience is very limited. Today, I did a recovery spin today on the Computrainer with a G3 Powertap hub (connected to my Garmin 920xt) and the P1 pedals (connected to my Garmin Edge 810). On the longer intervals, the P1 was consistently higher– by about 10-12 watts. But on shorter intervals, the P1 exhibited a slight “lag” so the G3 had virtually identical or even higher average watts over the interval. The attached graph is smoothed data to about 30 seconds (P1 is red and G3 is blue). The zeroing of data is actual– I stopped pedaling on two occasions. There was also a big spike in my G3 data which is more moderate in the graph. I had no spikes in my P1 data.
I’m using 165mm cranks and I’m wondering if my 810 is really taking that into consideration. The 10-12 watt gap is bigger than the difference of 172.5/165, but maybe it makes sense with the difference in where the power is being measured (pedal versus hub) and factors like drivetrain losses? From this mini test, I’m also thinking that the G3 is a little more “responsive” than the P1.
I really rely on my power data for keeping my power in line during longer interval sets or races, so the “inaccuracies” of the P1 are irritating but not earth-shattering. I guess I will have to adjust my expectations in comparing power data between the P1 and the G3– it’s okay if they are different as long as they are consistently different. But it would still be nice if the data was a little closer than 10-12 watts so I wouldn’t have to make any significant translations.
PSA: toss the batteries that come with the P1. I did a ride yesterday with exactly the same setup and had tons of dropped data and huge data lags with the P1. I then switched batteries to a fresh set of Duracells and all was good. This does make me worry a little bit about what will happen in actual use because I never received any warning that the original batteries were low.
Ken, i would of thought consistency of the device is more important then a comparison to another device, if you’re training to power you want the same reading each and every time so 200 watts on Monday is the same on the Thursday. That way you are training to the same level each time and can track your progress accordingly. i understand its great to compare them with a known working unit initially but if the swing isn’t massive you have established it is pretty close then you are good to go? Unless i am missing something this seems logical to me.
My legs are two different lengths ( ~5 mm ), so I use two different crank arm lengths, 167.5 on the left, and 170 on the right. ( I also shim my cleat or have insole spacing on the left ). I am interested in pedal-based power meters to help determine which leg is working harder. Any idea of future support for different crank lengths on the same bike for _any_ pedal-based power meter ?
So for Garmin head units support something called ‘Scale Factor’, which allows you to specify a % offset, which correctly scales for different head units.
The challenge though is that Garmin only enables that on Vector-connected head units. Otherwise the setting doesn’t show up. I’m not sure if they plan to allow that otherwise, I can ask next week.
(I learned it’s not enabled otherwise when a power meter company had sent me a mismatched left crank arm compared to my existing crank set and thought I’d be able to easily just set the offset…no love.)
I think that’s the same scale factor that can be written to each pedal using Vector firmware update utility running on PC and Mac, so that would not be in the head unit but in the Vector pedals. So for the Vector it’s definitively possible to use the scale factor to have different crank lengths on left and right and still get correct power readings. And, it would be nice if any head unit had a scale factor specifically for left and right pedal of each power meter in the sensor pool.
FWIW, I worked through many crank length combinations from 172.5 to 165, my current selection is by what feels good, not numbers. Plus my left knee doesn’t hurt all the time anymore.
167.5 isn’t a length manufactured by many these days, poo on those that don’t 8)
Now that Look has a walk-able cleat in their new Touring shoe (BikeRadar Look Touring Shoe link), does anyone know if those would be compatible with PowerTap P1 pedals?
I’d really like a pedal-based power meter but I need a somewhat walkable shoe.
(Also, really hoping this picture passes muster with Steve.) ;-)
Any idea why these things use so much energy relative to competitor products? Compare the 60-hour rating to Garmin Vector 2’a 175h, which seems pretty typical. The Vector pedals use CR2032s with about a fifth of the charge capacity as AAAs (1200mAh vs. 240mAh). The back of the envelop corollary here is that the Powertap P1s are drawing ~15x the current to do the same thing… Am I missing something?
Wow that’s interesting. I didn’t really look at that. The pt crank and hub claim 200 hr…but why are pedals only 60? Does voltage have anything to do with that? AAA 1.5v and cr2032 3.0v…?
Yes the voltage has something to do with it. Watts in electricity are defined by V*A (Voltage * Ampere). 3v*240mAh = 1.5v*480mAh. So compared to the Vector’s, best comparison, they use about 4 to 6 times as much power. Not reading many people getting the 175 hours out of the Vectors; most complain that they don’t get near that time. Other power-meters have far less sensors than the P1 so they can be more economical with battery power. Still have to try using rechargeable batteries, but I have read others using them in the P1 without problems; can’t do that with the Vectors.
btw: so far with my P1’s and original batteries: about 12 hours use, 300+ kilometers, one big power spike, one right pedal that had a software hick-up. They just do their work, feel very solid and work fine without any squeak or noise. Very happy with them.
Okay, I’ve been riding 8 days now (~800km) w the P1 pedals + red cleats on new Bont Zero+ shoes. 70% sunny/dry + 30% rainy/dirty conditions (it’s currently rainy season in Chiang Mai, Thailand). Cleaned the bike w just water + microfiber towel, no pressure spray or strong chemicals etc. Applied lube. But the cleats or pedals are squeaking like hell. What to do? Never experienced anything like this before with Shimano SPD-SL cleats and pedals. I’ve tried cleaning the pedals and cleats and let them dry over night and applying dry teflon lube (finish line red) and let sit for 2-3 hours and go out, nothing — still pedals or cleats keep squeeking like hell, both when moving sideways (6 degree float) or pedalling on down-stroke, as well as up-stroke. Any ideas? A quick google turns up that apparently people are having squeaking issues with Look Keo cleats — could this be something of the same? Bit bummed at the moment..
Okay, opened up the spring part of the pedal and cleaned it all up, applied new grease and put it back together, then tightened the spring tension almost to the maximum, apparently it was in a very loose position by default, cleaned up the cleats as well and seems like the squeaking is gone. I’m pretty sure that at least part of the squeaking came from the pedal springs, if not most or all, cause as soon as I inserted the hex wrench and turned the spring spindle it procuced the same squeaky sound. High tension makes it less prone to move when pedalling, so I guess mainly it was a simple case of just tightening the pedal tension up as high as comfortable to make the connection more stiff when pedalling and therefore minimize the friction and movement that would cause the awful sound track. Will see after the next time I get hit by a rain shower.
I hope the Bluetooth dongle solution isn’t Powertaps answer to helping people without Iphones to update their firmware?
I would guess if people already own a USB dongle, it would be ANT+ and not Bluetooth. In fact, I would guess very few people own bluetooth dongles. I realize at $25-40, they aren’t expensive, but that is not a fix for us non-Iphone users. The more appropriate fix would have been to create an app for the Android system or worst case scenario to at least allow an ANT+ dongle to do the work!
FYI, my Garmin Edge 800 Taiwan edition doesn’t show Crank Arm Length settings. It is simply not showing up. In your chart, Edge 800 is fully functional. But it is working with P1 without problem. My crank arm is default to 172.5 mm though.
I have tried to find it under bike profiles / bike detail. Unfortunately, it is not there. and not under sensor settings as well.
The other info. I found where the cleats are from. The exact same made for Keo pedals from Wellgo. The model# is RC7. I just don’t get it though. Since they are made for Keo pedals, why they have different styles. Look at the rubbers attached to cleats. Keo’s are on the tip. Wellgo’s in the middle and under the top hole.
I’m sorry. I need to correct my mistake. The Edge 800 does have crank arm length parameter. The P1 has to be AROUND and ACTIVATED. Then the option will show up under Bike Profiles / Bike Detail. My bad. I used to take Edge 800 upstairs so the communication was interrupted.
Has anyone tried to use the P1 pedals with the Pioneer SGX-CA500 head unit?
I got the pedals (via CT) recently and the touch screen on my Edge 800 has died after my first ride. :-(
Since it’s the 3rd or 4th time that it’s happened (all within 10-14 months of owning the device), I’m a little tired of dealing with Garmin despite the fact that they have been pretty good at replacing the units so far.
I guess another option is the Joule GPS+. I don’t know anybody using that one…
Anyone know if the Garmin 810 has a battery level field that relates to the P1 power meter (and what it is)? I found a battery field, but it monitors the Garmin head unit battery level and not the pedals. It would be handy to have this information displayed on the head unit to know when the P1 batteries need replacing. Otherwise it is hard to monitor that little light on the pedals for that information!
Not directly within the unit, however, most PM’s will report battery power if you go into the sensors menu and then the info screens. I don’t have an Edge 810 with me at the moment to validate that specific combo.
The PT app for your phone has a battery field that for me has not been accurate. In fact–it always displays 100% strength.
I have not seen a battery life or percent power display on my 920XT or my edge 1000.
I have however noted in TrainerRoad that is displays hours of use that appear to me to be accurate. I don’t know if you use TrainerRoad, but if you do, if you go to the settings page and look at your power meter connected (assuming it’s the pedals) it will show you hours or use, signal strength, etc.
Now I’ve had the pedals for about a week and I’m getting power spikes too. Sometimes the spikes are in the range of 2-3,000 watts but, other times, it is in the range of 40,000+ watts. Either way, it does definitely mess with my data on my head unit. I’ve just started hitting the lap button when it happens, as lap average is my key metric.
Another issue I’ve noticed is that there are a ton more dropped data when I export the .FIT files to analyze in Excel. I’ll take the same ride with my P1s and a G3 Powertap hub. From a two hour ride, the data file from my G3 has maybe a half dozen lines where no data (note: not zero) get recorded. By contrast, the data file from my P1 has probably at least 10-20 times as many lines where data just never got recorded.
I’ve gone 9 days with the P1 pedals with no major issues, except for some occasional very weird power spikes, like 63,800 watts, which does through off the whole actitvity average data of course and is very annoying. But yesterday on my 10th day with the P1 I turned on my Garmin 810, calibrated the P1, started my ride and then noticed that the Balance reading is not working. I then tried restarting the Garmin for at least 10 times throughout the ride, recalibrating, redetecting the P1, starting a new activity and doing all these steps again, nothing, the Balance reading is not showing anything anymore, what’s going on? The only thing I didn’t try was doing a factory reset for the Garmin, but I would rather not do that obviously, since I’ve got everything set up. Absolutely nothing was changed since my previous ride the day before, when the Balance worked fine. Any ideas?
So one thing I’ve found with the Edge 810 and power balance is that if it doesn’t find both pedals BEFORE you press the start button, it’ll never search for them again. So you effectively just get a one-pedal system.
It’s not limited to the P1’s either, I can repro it on both Verve Infocrank and bePRO.
What I do to ensure that doesn’t happen is to give both crank arms a 2-3 rotation spin before I turn on the unit, just to be safe. Or, at the very least before I press the start button.
Thanks, this gives me some ideas of what might have happened. I did get the “right sensor missing” message I believe every time as well, but normally I’ve just ignored it as I thought it was only a bug and never seen it affecting any readings before.
One thing though, you say that if it doesn’t find the right pedal sensor, then it only works with the left sensor as a one-pedal system, really? Meaning that it will only measure the left leg and double the power output? I thought that this could not happen with P1 as the pedals are paired and can only be used together — ie if the right pedal is inactive and not sending data to the left, then there is no power reading, but it’s not correct then? Basically the left pedal can be used alone then? Just not the right one obviously.
So one trick I started doing with the Verve Infocrank (since it seems to wake-up slightly slower than the P1’s), was to simply add the balance screen to one of my fields. I don’t really use it that much (at all mostly) during a ride, but i just put it on a random data page.
If that shows null, then the pedal/side wasn’t found.
It was indeed the battery. Left one seemed to have still more juice left. After about 30 hours. So not 60 hours as claimed, but I guess that can vary a lot, based on climate/temp and so on. All good again after replacing the batteries.
Not sure really where to put this :) be reading this website for a while now and jolly fine it is to (as is my new fenix 3). However am new to a lot of this stuff though and am about to have a go with getting a turbo trainer and a power meter. And i cant really think of a better place to ask than in this review, I have one road bike used as a commuter and local routes and hills and want to get some general improving going on. seems to me that a power meter (stages for cost / power tap pedals to give some future proofing for a new bike), a dumb but quality resistance trainer (e.g. a Kurt kinetic) and trainer road on tablet sat in my shed could nail most of what the Kickr and Tacx have to offer, only be a change of wheel away from quite a sophisticated outfit? and use power to turn up the efforts on commutes, I don’t want flaky software just a good quality outfit, thoughts please
Hi
Always enjoy your reviews. They are outstanding.
My question is not strictly technical: I have gone from using normal shimano pedals on dura ace cranks with the Stages PM on left crank to the now considerably heavier P1 pedals. I am finding that I have overall less power and tire more quickly now during my hard rides. So, would you have any views on how long it might take to adapt to the new extra 100 or so grams under each one of my feet?
Thanks
No, not yet. Someone asked about it a day or two ago and essentially I haven’t heard if they were actually shipping. Sometimes with a bunch of small stores claim having it in-stock, it’s not, but rather actually the backend inventory systems with a distributor tie-in show it as in-stock. Perhaps it really is, but I’m just surprised that nobody in the cycling press has ridden it.
Either way, I’m sure they’ll be at Interbike this week – so I’ll catch-up with them there.
any word from power tap wether they are a firmware or hardware issue?
perhaps it is simply demand/supply, but I have noticed that ‘is stock by X’ dates in EU seem to have moved back 8 weeks.
It sounds like a communication issue. Why certain people see it and others don’t is the mystery. I’ll discuss it with them (and ANT+) this week at Interbike.
Is there perhaps a connection with a PowerCal heart-rate strap? I used it, but have switched back to my Garmin strap to prevent the Garmin 510 to perhaps listen to two powermeter signals; or have some strange readings. It should not be a problem, but there are more things in life that should not be. Haven’t had a spike since and the P1’s perform well. On the other hand: PT reported to me that most users see only one or two spikes when the pedals are relatively new, so perhaps it is a run-in issue that does not occur after several hours of use.
Hi Ray, I have been trialing a set of the P1 pedals and have experienced the power spike many others are reporting.
I have noticed when standing on a climb that the P1 reads between 14-24W higher than my SRM yet when riding seated, they report very similar watts. Have you noticed this on your rides? Would this be an expected outcome based on standing on the pedals?
I am using the Garmin Edge 800 with the P1 pedals and an Edge 510 with the SRM.
I was talking with Powertap this morning and casually asked about comparing power readings between different types of power meters and this topic came up. He said that power while seated should be about 3% lower than the same effort when measured on a set of G3 hubs. However, when standing, power will spike upwards (of course not on the order of the huge spikes people are reporting), particularly with heavier riders. It has to do with the inherent design of the pedal.
As I get more and more mileage with different power meters (simultaneously), I’m noticing that power isn’t really comparable between different power meters. For instance, 230 watts on a G3 isn’t going to be 230 watts on a P1. And I assume that’s true no matter what combination of power meters one chooses.
I haven’t yet been able to reproduce it on any of my rides, any of my bikes, or any of my head units. Most of my rides I’ve got at least two different head units recording the P1’s, and still can’t get a spike to create.
I think I’m up to four different bikes I’ve put the pedals on now as well.
As for differences in power meters, yeah, there will be some. Typically it is indeed the hub that should be lowest, with the pedals highest. But when you get within a few percent, you’re within the margin of error for any of the units.
I’ve never seen a properly working PM ‘flip’ the higher/lower values when going from standing to seating. Usually a set of proper PM’s will trend at the same ordering, sprint or no sprint.
I believe ray has mentioned this on most if not all reviews that the power output can vary from pm to pm. The think I find interesting is that pedal is lower than a hub? I thought more force or torque would come from the direct forces…like the pedals? I’m confused I guess
Just reporting what I was told by Powertap– I would have thought it would be just the opposite too! I even ran through some numbers that they confirmed (e.g. “you mean if my G3 data is showing 230 watts, my P1s should be displaying about 223 watts?”)– just to make clear exactly what they were saying because it seemed a bit surprising. They also explained that some of that variation had to do with the p1’s internal algorithms and how they compensate for some otherwise wonky data that they were getting with heavier riders. Then that started making sense to me– what shows up on the head unit is all a function of those algorithms regardless of the actual forces applied to the pedals.
At least in my very limited experience, the differences between the P1 and my G3 is a bit deeper than just the variation that Ray has reported. For instance, I raced the Lake Stevens triathlon this weekend and my watts were about 10 watts higher on my P1s than on my G3s. And no, I wasn’t standing much on that ride. But riding on a trainer yesterday, the P1s were consistently 10 watts lower. 20 watts is a huge difference, especially when the difference isn’t consistent. Until I make sense of that difference, I can’t rely on my P1s. Granted, I may have a defective pair of P1s as my watts do also oscillate like crazy every now and then. For instance, on one six minute set yesterday on the trainer, my P1 watts oscillated between 100-230 watts throughout the entire interval whereas my G3 data was rock steady at 230 watts. At the end of the interval, my P1s reported an average wattage of 160 watts versus an average of 230 watts for my G3s. Granted, Ray has mentioned that every PM goes bonkers every now and again– but I get crazy data on every ride I take. Even the PT folks hinted that I should stick with my G3 data as they told me that’s what they consider their gold standard for accuracy compared to the P1s.
Thanks for clarity ken. I’m a bit concerned but I guess I should have known better to buy new release products. This will basically be my first pm so basing of what you’ve heard makes me wonder if I could even train efficiently and effectively. I have no idea what my power could be either! I tried plugging in my profile into the power cycling online calculator but that didn’t come close to what strava had estimated for me… from the power cycling cal I was doing about 200w. But on strava it read avg 130w? Omg I’m so not in shape or something lol.
I guess I should not be basing any estimate for that matter…now with p1 iffy data…
I have Garmin edge 500 btw, wonder if I’m in luck? I didn’t hear or read any spikes and such unless I’ve overlooked those. =-O
I wouldn’t stress Jonathan. I’ve been using a G3 and P1’s for several rides, and I have seen identical power numbers within a watt for both Pav and NP. I have found that power at the start of intervals varies (sometimes P1 is higher, sometimes G3 reads higher) but the longer the interval goes on, the closer the two numbers become. From my experience I completely trust the P1 to be giving accurate numbers.
I agree with Richard. Yes, I’m getting some anomalies. But I also strongly suspect that I may have a defective unit. About 85% of the time, it works fine– and when it doesn’t, I know it. When I say it isn’t a useful training tool for me, that’s because I’m comparing it to my G3’s, which are working perfectly and which I’m fully adjusted to. But compared to training without a power meter, I’ll happily take my misbehaving P1.
In the end, I’m still glad I bought the P1s. I know that Powertap will stand behind their product. The issues we’re all having now will be a thing of the past soon. Nothing beats the convenience of the P1s. I’ve used them several times at the gym, swapping out the pedals on their trainer with the P1s. I do a ton of business travel and just that ability to swap is enough for me. I also tend to be very finicky with power meters. For instance, I believe that spikes are really much more noticeable in Excel files– Training Peaks and other services filter them out so most people probably don’t even notice them.
So even if you got a set of P1s like mine, it will still change your training and racing. If you start getting weird data on your head unit, you’ll know it’s off and you may curse for a few minutes. But the rest of the time, things will work fine and you’ll wonder how you ever trained without it.
Just a follow-up to my last message to reiterate my point about Powertap standing behind their product. I contacted Powertap, they looked at my data from my FIT files and noticed they were a bit screwy, and they are taking care of it by replacing them. So my current set of P1s were probably defective after all. I’ve got to say that my customer service experience with them has been incredible. I’ve been using Powertap products from the first yellow-capped Tune power hubs (around 15 years ago) and they have been a great company to deal with ever since.
Again, when your data is messed up, you’ll know it. If you have access to an indoor trainer– or preferably a computer-controlled trainer like a Wahoo Kickr or a Computrainer that can hold you at a constant load– I’d say spend some time running steady intervals on a recovery day. If you start noticing really weird data, contact Powertap.
I’d like to be clear that, even though I’ve had spikes on my two sets of pedals, I’m not stressed or phased (yet) as the dealings that I’ve had with PowerTap over the issue have been first rate too. They’re not tried to run and hide from the issue, acknowledged it to me, and been timely in responses. I have no doubt they’ll resolve this and the pedals have a two year warranty, so really, I’m pretty comfortable with the situation so far.
Compare this to the support of the watch/computer manufacturer and they’re polar (not a pun) opposites.
For what it’s worth, I’ve posted before and have several comparative files of my P1 vs Powertap hub vs 2 different stages PM’s and the P1 has consistently been lower. Sometimes markedly lower (30+watts) over extended segments (training indoors with variables controlled). I have sent multiple files to PowerTap and am waiting to hear back.
noticed in the manual that there is a magnet warning. does this mean putting my p1 through airport scanners is a bad idea? one reason for getting them was the ease of moving them around on holiday rental bikes.
would be interested in the PT response to this. Lots of people use button magnets on the spindle end for cadence, which may be ok – but what exactly are they warning against? surely the scanner magnets are VERY strong, and obviously a large powerful field.
due to my crank length and using ‘in frame’ bontrager duotap for sp/cad i have had to place a small button magnet on the spindle (on top of the female hex pedal bolt used to attach pedals)
guess i will perhaps have to find and alternative, bit annoying as the dustup works surprisingly well and neatly. i know p1 provides cadence, but using dustup for speed would be useful.
Question to users of multiple power meters:
what are you using to record power data from multiple power meters?
I’m using either multiple head units (which is not the most convenient way because of charging and operating multiple units, and requires converting all the data from .fit to .csv) or the WASP (which isn’t optimal either, because of two things to charge, and, a not absolutely reliable iOS app – crashes, sometimes swaps data columns), I think this is similar a to what Ray is doing.
The IpWatts app running on an Android smartphone with built-in ANT, connecting to (up to) 4 power meters and writing directly to .csv could be the most elegant solution at this moment. It doesn’t seem to record cadence from all power meters though. Anyone here who has tried that combination?
Multiple head units. just make sure to start and stop at the same time.
Now the big question: is there a better way to compare multiple .FIT files? Excel is so cumbersome for this. Right now, I have to:
(1) export each .FIT file to a .CSV file,
(2) open each one in Excel and strip out the header section and extra columns
(3) review each file for bad data
(4) add a column for 30s average power and create a formula for that based on the power column
(5) create a graph from each 30s average power column from each .CSV file
Major pain in the **s. It would be much nicer to just pull in 2-3 .FIT files directly, tell the program what data I want to compare and degree of smoothing, and get a graph.
Yeah, you’ll have seen all my recent power posts are using some custom app that makes the comparison instant from .FIT files (and .TCX/.GPX). Same goes for 30s/etc graphs.
I’m hoping later this fall to open up that app to others.
I am seeing that my left pedals (both, P1 and Vector) track well with my crank-based meters (Pioneer, P2M), but for whatever reason my right pedals do not, so I also “need” to include percentage data in my comparisons. The only way I found so far is exporting from GC to GC json, deleting unneeded header info and then converting to CSV, which is another incovenience in addition to just getting and synchronizing the data from many headunits.
Would anybody know a method to directly export power AND PERCENTAGE from .fit to csv?
Ray, will your app support percentage and possibly other metrics as well? (I’ve actually checked your sample data and they don’t show left-right issues, so you might not need that feature though.)
Meanwhile, I’ve also tried the IpWatts app on a borrowed Android tablet a few times, and so far it has been reliable. I’d say definitively worth giving a try if someone already owns an Android phone with built-in ANT. Sample data here: link to analyticalcyclist.wordpress.com
ok, I wont worry too much about that right now. thanks guys for the messages. I got my pedals today, only opened them to hold them :P need to wait til after work :( anyways they feel so solid, little hefty but heavy duty in a good way.
so I wont be getting any outdoor riding in until this weekend so i’ll be on a resistance trainer, the ones with small skinny roller you screw to rear tire. Its a 5+ yr old thing but it works. so my question is basically can I turn off the gps on my garmin head unit and start training or do I have to setup a training routine and import to head unit?
is there 3rd party ant+ software I can use on laptop or phone (android) that is recommended? or just base everyone from my garmin power? I guess it would be cool to see LIVE numbers on a laptop, does that exist and free?
is there free power analysis I can download my workout to view afterwards?
aside from indoor training, for outdoor riding I saw an option for bike weight…when including this im assuming it influences power output correct? if so, should I weigh my bike with all my gear on it? bike pump, lights, filled up 2 water bottles?
Golden Cheetah. It imports your fit files, you can train with it if you have some sort of roller to put your bike in. It is open source and some clever people behind it. Yes, it takes some time to understand all the metrics and graphs, but I think its a great tool. BTW: you can also download Poweragent from PowerTap website and that is also free. Somehow I prefer GC, but other users may prefer Poweragent. Test both and see what you like most.
Wow, that’s a lot of questions! I’ll try to answer most of them.
(1) just turn off the GPS and ride
(2) a bunch of software can use an ANT+ stick and record, display, and set up your workouts based on power. Frans mentioned Golden Cheetah, which is amazing for analytics but quite complicated. There’s also PerfPro Studio (great for basic workouts), Zwift (great for game like experience), and Trainer Road (great for structured workout library). But you’ll need an ANT+ stick to use any of them effectively. If you had access to a trainer that can control your resistance (e.g. Computrainer, Kickr, etc) then you’d have the best possible combination.
(3) for power analysis, I use TrainingPeaks and WKO 4, but they aren’t free. Golden Cheetah is free, but complicated. If you have a Garmin, Garmin Connect is pretty lacking but can get you basic metrics.
(4) I usually ignore bike weight. Yes, there’s a difference in watts based on the weight of bike, but your head unit ultimately displays the watts your putting out regardless of the weight. A heavier rider plus a heavy bike means more watts and thus more watts get displayed. You may need your bike weight if you want to get really picky about calculating watts per kilogram, but I never find that a useful metric while I’m riding.
What would be the difference in watts? Any powermeter measures the power that you put out, regardless of your own weight or the bike weight. A watt is a watt, the influence of weight will mostly count when climbing: the more weight, the more watt you need to have the same speed of somebody who is lighter. In general a bigger person will have bigger muscles and therefor more power, but he/she needs that to compensate for the extra weight of being bigger.
If you have an ANT+ stick on you pc or laptop: you can train with a lot of programs. My favorite atm is Zwift. Fun to do and an hour passes by quickly with a good workout. And I train with an old Tacx Vortex that does not support FE-C, but with the P1’s it just works fine/
And yes, Golden Cheetah has quite a learning curve, on the other hand that learning curve helps you to understand the power and how you can get the most out of it.
But first: start to ride, collect data and save the fit files well, so you can reuse them for later analysis; in the meantime have fun!
Ya lol, I thought I had time tonight to do a 30 min test but after inspecting closer the right pedal cap/side lid on the inner axle didn’t look like it was fully sealed, not quite sure if this will effect water ingress. This is where the green light is blinking.
I emailed customer service to see what I should do if anything.
I did like a quick 1 min spin just to see power reading yay it shows up. it ranged from 100 to 500w I’d like to see what I could max on these, fun. Ya regardless of weight calculations it was the same standing and sitting pedaling same cadence. Is this correct?
I’m not able to see individual pedal power, guess cuz I’m using Garmin 500?
I’d have to say the bearings in these sound rough and bit worried for future…I had shimano over 5 years, entry level ones and still spin smoothly and freely by finger. When trying to clip in I have to manually rotate pedal to snap in. Normally weight of back of pedal would rotate it down making easy to clip in on the go. No biggie but not fond of the rough bearings…
The Edge 500 does support left/right power (add the Power Balance field), just ensure your Edge 500 is fully updated. There’s no differences in power output when seated versus standing, assuming the output your exerting on them is the same.
The unit should be totally silent. So if you’re hearing anything, something is wrong.
You’re saying exactly the same thing as I am. A heavier bike riding up a hill requires more power. There’s your difference in power. I don’t think that the head units calculate different power based on the weight of your bike. I don’t know why they even include a field for it– they might just as well ask what color your bike is. The weight of your bike may be relevant for calculating watts per kilogram (assuming it knows your bodyweight) but that isn’t terribly useful for me at least on the road.
I believe the theory behind including bike weight was actually for calorie reasons, but I’ll ask (meaning, to slightly increase calorie numbers for a heavier back). As you noted, it has zero impact on power recordings.
Just as a minor update for those seeing spikes, I talked with PowerTap about it today.
They continue to narrow down what’s causing it – which seems to be fully centered on an ANT+ communication snag occurring between the pedals and the head units and a misalignment in picking up packets. It’s only impacting Garmin head units, as the PowerTap Joule units have a 3,000w cap put in (basically just throws away values above that). As does Training Peaks (fwiw). Garmin head units do not have a cap (nor does Garmin Connect), hence why it’s showing up there.
While they could ‘easily’ solve the problem by just adding a software limiter cap into the P1 via firmware update (i.e. 3,000w as well), they noted they really want to figure out the root of the communications issue – rather than just making it go away easily.
Nonetheless, they’ve confirmed that themselves, Garmin, and ANT+ are all working to try and figure out why it’s happening and the best course to resolve it. They aren’t yet sure who (if anybody) is at fault. However, they are sure that it’s an easy P1 firmware update via the app (which was submitted to Apple for approval late last week), once they do figure out which product is best suited to resolve it.
Thanks for the update! If buying a Joule for the next few months is what it takes to get nice clean data from my P1s, I’m fine with that. The P1s are so revolutionary– everything I waited years and years for the Metrigear (then Vector) to be. I love both Garmin and Powertap and trust that, soon enough, these headaches will be a distant memory.
Just got off phone with pt. They are super nice and helpful. They said this is the first time they see this problem. problem or not they wanted it to be on the safe side so I’ll have to send back for a new pair. Yay? Kinda disappointed though of course. I hope they will update me if it was a manufacturer hiccup. The cap just looks warped…gotta wait yet again :-\
I had the opportunity to test the P1s with a Garmin Fenix 2 yesterday.
It was a short test but apparently everything works fine, including a prompt for crank length (mine is standard so I didn’t need to change it, but it’s there).
For what it’s worth, I had just received my Powertap Joule GPS+ (also from Clever Training) since I had to replace my Edge 800 (its touch screen quit working after something seeped below it, 4th time it happened to me in has many years). I tested it too and it’s a reasonable unit. You can now disable auto-start BTW :-)
I also liked that it handles multiple power meters gracefully (you get a list and decide the one you want to use).
All Garmin units suck with this (multiple units detected message).
I haven’t checked much of the data yet. I managed to crash (pedal strike in a corner) 1 mile from home on the way back. Doh! I’m banged up (5 cracked ribs and a very sore hip) and I hope I didn’t damage the pedal…
I don’t know that I’ll have an oppportunity to check ahead of my upcoming bike trip. :-( Oh well.
Ray, I did a 30 min spin in 2 segments. First one was with a workout I planned then I stopped it cuz it was incorrectly planned…Then I just recorded with the start button with gps off. It stayed in pause and didn’t capture data. Only when I go back to workouts it would record, why is this or am I missing something here?
I found my avg was 200ish watts…my left leg a few percent higher than right. Thanks for the input from before cuz I found the balance display.
Hi, I have Garmin Edge 520 and now I’m waiting to get my P1 pedals. Any idea when the update for edge520 is coming? My crank length is 175mm and now I’m worried that I can’t use my new pedals when they arrive.
It sounds like a few days away. But again, you can simply post your Settings.fit file to the Garmin Forums, and they’ll tweak the file there for your crank length (just need it done once). So today it’s an annoyance, but not a show-stopper.
Hi. You discussed on your BePro review regarding the settling in period for pedals, i.e. 3-4 rides before you can be confident in the reading. Do these P1s present the same issue?
I’m likely to be switching between various bikes once a week so if it’s going to take 3-4 rides to become accurate I will only ever have duff data!
No, I never saw it have issues with settling like other units. I’ve done a lot of peddle swapping lately, just for fun, and it seems to be spot on from the start (I’d still recommend simply doing one quick sprint at the start of the ride just to ensure the pedal is tight).
I received my pedals 2 days ago, pretty happy with them after 2 rides. Installation is super easy. However the PowerTap iOS app crashes every time I try to connect to the P1’s via bluetooth so I can’t check for a firmware update (Garmin says its v2.1 now). I am running iOS 9 on an iPhone 6.
Other observations:
1) Coming from Shimano SPD-SL, the cleats are smaller, much less walkable and do not have as much adjustment range on the shoe (I’m at the limits now). 2) They are also just Wellgo Look Knock-offs, not some custom PT design. Amazon has the same exact cleats for about $13. 3) Pedal stack height is 5mm greater, so I had to raise my seat. 4) Compared to my Stages PM, the P1s report wattage about 2% higher. This works out to about a 10W raise in my FTP. Totally within normal variance, and it could also be that my right leg is slightly stronger so the Stages is under-reporting power (LR balance for 2 P1 rides was 48.5.) 5) I’ve not seen any data spikes in my 2 rides (total of about 63miles).
Ray,
Any idea which is the right Garmin forum to have the settings.fit file updated? I’ve only been able to find a thread under the Edge 1000 related to this. I’ve got the 520 and was hoping there may be a separate thread.
Cheers.
FYI to folks: Garmin released a FR920XT Beta firmware which adds in the ability to tweak your crank length for the P1’s now. It’s available here: link to www8.garmin.com
As always, it’s beta, so it’s always possible your microwave could blow up, your shower flood, or something else. Usual warnings apply.
Typically things in beta last a few days or up to a week or two before becoming final. My understanding is the Edge 520 firmware is in internal beta right now, and should be out shortly (unclear if it’ll be public beta or just straight to full release). I believe the Edge 1000 is then trailing that.
As noted previously, you can always post to the Garmin Forums on the Edge 1000/P1 thread in there to get an updated Settings.fit file until that point in time.
Absolutely terrific review as always. It’s prompted me to take the plunge into power, a plunge I would have taken with Vector if they weren’t weight limited! I’d have gladly bought them through CT by way of support for the work you do but the shipping and import tax to the UK would be cost-prohibitive.
I was wondering if the P1’s will provide the necessary data for VO2 calculations on the Edge 520?
Yes, the P1’s provide the data (just a power meter is needed for Cycling VO2). The Edge 520 & 1000 both will get/have this (as does the 920XT & Fenix3). The Edge 510/810 aren’t planned to get those features.
You also need a heart strap and set your heart range (it will default if you don’t which is OK but perhaps not the most accurate). Don’t have the 520, 920xt and Fenix already calculate, 1000 currently doesn’t but sounds like from Ray it’s coming which would be nice.
As an owner of a Garmin Edge 810 who is also a very serious potential buyer of the Powertap P1 pedals, I just can’t pull the trigger until I am confident the power spike issue has been resolved. I’ve heard enough complaints here and in other forums (including a friend who is having this exact issue), that I won’t buy until it is fixed. That is bad news for Powertap because in the meantime I may be swayed to purchase a different power meter. Please keep us updated here if and when Powertap and Garmin can resolve this issue because this is currently a deal breaker for me. As the product stands right now, nobody can ride a race and adhere to a power plan when these types of massive spikes exist. The data is instantly irrelevant during a ride and that is obviously unacceptable.
Thanks Gabe & glad to hear the pedals are working for you. From what I understand the power spike issue seems to be happening mostly to people using a Garmin headunit, which you are not. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the problem is on the Garmin side just because I’ve had so many problems with my Edge 810 over the years with it shutting itself down or locking up, that it makes perfect sense that Garmin would be the culprit. I just hope Powertap has some luck working with them because Garmin is typically slow to react and oftentimes not very technically savvy!
I had only two spikes and since I’m using the Garmin HR strap instead of the PowerCal I haven’t had a single spike; my idea was that perhaps the power signal from the Powercal could interfere with the readings. Besides: the spike can easily be corrected in programs like Golden Cheetah (the edit mode can even detect the spikes) I have now 18 hours of riding (could have been more without a cold) and even with what I know now, would buy them again. Pedals are well build, easy install and I have no doubt that the quirks will be solved with a firmware update; confident of the service by Powertap.
Hey Scott,
If you don’t want to buy the pedals then that’s fine, but personally I wouldn’t not be buying them because of concerns regarding the power spike. I have ridden mine for around 49 hrs, and have seen only 1 power spike in that time, which was instantly obvious and upset my ride TSS and NP. I knew roughly what they both were before the spike, so just pressed the lap button, started a new lap and monitored NP and TSS for that Lap, so I still knew pretty much where I was. I am sure Powertap will fix the power spike issue (I believe they have told Ray there is an easy fix, but they are working to find a better fix), but even if I knew that it wouldn’t ever be fixed I’d still buy the P1’s.
following feedback received from Powertap after reporting spikes issues on both fenix3 and edge1000:
You —
recorded data on both garmin edge1000 and fenix 3
P1 pedals gave powerspikes of 58000 watt on both devices
James H
We have seen this issue with the pedals and competitors head units. We will be releasing a firmware update that should correct this issue. However, in the meantime, you can import your activity files into our Power Agent software to view the correct data without the spikes
You —
ok looking forward to this update, scheduled for this month? or no release date yet?
James H
Unfortunately, we do not have a release date yet, but hopefully within the next few weeks. We are testing a beta version currently, so as long as that passes testing we will push the release out
I have a quick question regarding the bearings in the p1’s.
I have waited for weeks for stock to arrive & I finally received my order on Monday. However, I noticed the bearings in the right pedal felt a bit rough. The left pedal was silky smooth, it was just the right pedal. The store I bought them from asked me to return them & the replacement order arrived today. Much to my dismay the right pedal feels exactly the same as the first set (different serial number, so I know they did swap them). The left is silky smooth whereas the right feels like the bearings are catching slightly.
I am waiting for a response from powertap but was wondering if you noticed this? Should it feel like this?
Given that these have to be sent over to the US for servicing I want to make sure they are right before I use them & can’t return them to the store.
After pouring over the reviews here and trolling the various forums, I just pulled the trigger on 2 pairs (one for the wife and I). Purchased through Clever Training using the DCR VIP program. Amazing offer. Thank you Ray.
I’ve used these pedals for a handful of rides now and Ray is spot. These things hit every bullet for me. Simple, easy to install, easy to move to other bikes and accurate. I used to have a stages that was good, but these are superior in my opinion. Right now I’m running them on my carbon Specialized Diverge.
Ray:
Thanks for ALL of the great insight you provide across the board.
I’ve been following your power meter posts for a while. I ordered my P1s from Clever on Tuesday and took them on their first of many rides last night. The ease of installation and set up was just as you described and the pedals worked great with my Edge 800. Except for inserting the batteries and telling my Edge to look for a power meter, the installation process was exactly the same as replacing a set of badly worn Look cleats and threading on a new set of pedals.
Has anyone found any cheaper “less float” cleats that work with the P1s?? I’m finding the ones shipped have so much floats that it’s hard to clip out!!
ok, got the new pedals. there wasn’t anything wrong with the first ones i had, basically needed to snap back in…wasn’t that easy for me though which i tried.
anyways, i got to do a 26 mile ride and too have experienced the spike at around 56k, this happened almost end of ride.
btw, does this ride basically go to trash bin because of this spike? im not sure if this is data i should try to base numbers on. does this mess up the averages or should i import to golden cheetah to delete that or does it auto ignore those things?
i uploaded to garmin, pretty happy with the solid pink line down the middle for pedal strokes.
a complaint however, coming from shimanos, the cleats are not durable at all, they get scuffed so easily!
From what others have said, you can import the ride into a tool like Golden Cheetah and remove that spike which will give you a more accurate representation of your power numbers. Obviously that isn’t something we should have to do and quite frankly it is a bit of a pain when it shouldn’t be necessary. My bigger complaint is when these spikes occur during a race or whenever you are trying to ride to specific power numbers, you cannot because the numbers are skewed. Others have mentioned you can manually lap at the point you notice a spike, but more often than not, most people will never notice when it happens unless they stare obsessively at their head unit the entire ride.
I have faith that this will get fixed eventually, but if it is as easy of a fix as everyone seems to think, it probably should have been done by now. I will continue to wait patiently.
I tried it with TP, it works, less hassle. This is the on signed up for free, its not premium. Although I think they gave me a trial 7 day but will auto change back. I’m wonder if this will effect the removal of spikes after trial is over?
On Golden Cheetah, I see there’s a ‘train’ is this where i can link the P1 to get live readings while riding indoors? I cant seem to get the software to find them. Any tips on this? Under ‘add device’ it says has 3 options; 1, native ant+, 2,racermate and 3, tacx? What is this?
I’ve had the spike happen 10 times with three different sets of pedals. It doesn’t invalidate your entire file–it’s generally just a second or two of a very high spike that will alter the calculations for your entire ride in terms of TSS, NP and average power and the like. Since the 920XT bases your VO2 max off of your power–then any of the Garmin devices that do these functions can get screwed up with that file because you will have super human power readings for a given 20 minute + ride.
If you use Training Peaks, that app automatically scrubs out the false data so there is nothing to do. If you use Garmin–you can’t adjust the file within Garmin itself. You can upload the file to Golden Cheetah and use the option they have to ignore spikes (you have to manually tell it where that threshold should be). You can then output the file and re-load into Garmin (and delete your old). Lots of extra steps, but you can do it.
During a ride with a Garmin head unit you can set one of your screens to show current lap power average, lap power NP, etc. and anytime you get a spike that screws up the overall file you can hit the lap button and go from there (again, scrubbing out the spike after the ride). At least if you are racing you can work off of a fresh lap reading.
Regarding the spikes, just to add a little more to the discussion, I’ve been riding almost 4 weeks now with the P1s and out of 24 rides 7 have had these random spikes (that’s roughly 30% of the rides). NP/TSS/IF is screwed up and some cases also 20 min avg power calculation by Garmin. I use Strava mostly (and TP), so I have not much of a problem, since there the spikes are corrected automatically, but would be good of course to have correct data on the actual Garmin device and web as well. I’m not going to be bothered with manually editing the file every time there is a spike.
I also caught one of the spikes on a ride when it happened — the power reading dropped to 0 and I thought the connection must have dropped (or powermeter battery died etc), but then it came back seconds later showing huge numbers for a moment and then all good again, like nothing happened — so it seems to be, I’m guessing, some transmission error with ANT+/Garmin for some reason.
There is only 1 spike per ride every time, I’ve not seen more than 1 spike per ride, but of course one is enough. It can happen any time during the ride, totally random.
Here are 2 examples of rides with spikes on garmin:
Well, to be more accurate the data is bit screwy on Strava as well though, since it seems they just have a cap of 2400 W set, so the data is almost accurate, except for the small spikes that still go to 2400 W, so it does mess up the power curve a bit in the 1s region, not a big thing though, but annoyance still.
I’m in the same boat. On average every other ride I get a power spike (up to 50-60kW). The data is unusable with golden cheetah without removing manually the datapoint. I will contact powertap during the week if I can remember.
Hi, I have my first test drive with P1 pedals and Garmin Edge 520. There was one spike (28871 watts). It last about 3 seconds. When the spike came, long low downhill was just started and my speed was greasing up.
Is there any other sites where I can whipe that spike off than golden cheetah? My Mac did not want to download golden cheetah.
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soy un poleman
great review ! I bought a set last week, hope it s ok with my fenix 2?
I have a fenix 3 and it is working fine with that.
Hey! Did it work ok with the Fenix2? I’m thinking about getting this power meter and also own a Fenix2…
When you say you wont get Garmin Cycling Dynamics, what exactly does that mean? Can you get NP, IF, TSS, etc…?
Garmin Cycling Dynamics refers to aspects like Platform Center Offset, Power Phase, and Time Seated/Standing: link to dcrainmaker.com
You’ll still get NP/IF/TSS, based on your head unit as normal – since that occurs at the head unit level.
Ordered via the Clever Training link- Thanks for the review!
Thanks for the support Damen!
Hey Ray,
Thanks for getting this review out.
You’ve saved me a ton of money in not buying the ‘wrong’ power meter (for me).
When is the European version of your CleverTraining purchasing deal coming on-line (you hinted at it in a pod cast).
Thanks!
Angus
Ray:
You just saved me a bunch of money and a huge headache. Prior to your review I was considering ordering from Clever Training but I guess I will need to hold off until the Edge 1000 big is fixed. Bummer. I am worried Garmin has no incentive to fix. Thanks for giving us a heads up.
Do you have any thoughts on the Xpedo Thrust E to be launched shortly? Do you have any idea if they have the same compatibility problem with the Edge 1000?
Yeah, hopefully they’ll sort that out quickly. Having Vector folks onboard has helped Garmin in terms of power meters, my guess is that there was just a line of code accidentally added in on the Edge 1000 that basically does a check if Vector and if not doesn’t show the crank length (probably in an attempt to simplify).
Given that omission isn’t on any other units except the Edge 1000, I’d lean towards accidental oversight.
As for Xpedo..that’s sorta the never-ending ‘next month’ scenario. Every year and every event. I’m sure later this month at Eurobike they’ll say “We’ll ship in 4-6 weeks”, just like they did last year and the year prior.
That said, they’d have the same crank-length problem on the Edge 1000, since it’s basically not allowing you to enter it in for anything except Vector variants. Again, same limitation isn’t on anything else I’ve tried.
Ray, well said indeed. Let’s hope Garmin fixes this soon because that is all that is standing in my way from ordering these pedals. I want them, but I don’t want to have to buy a new cycling computer.
There’s some discussion on it within the Garmin Forums already based on the info I posted in the review above.
Some talk of the P1 not sending the correct tags, but I’m not sure if I buy that since all other Garmin products (including Epix) enumerate it correctly.
Either way, whomever is at fault I don’t think it’s purposeful and I have a funny feeling someone will claim responsibility within the next 24 hours… ;)
Thanks Ray. Awesome review as always. I was the guy who posted the Edge 1000 message on Garmin forums. I was very disappointing to see I cant set Crank Length on Edge. I spoke to Garmin support yesterday on phone and they said that its only available for Vectors. I suggested that maybe they should not then advertise themselves as being ANT+ compatible if they don’t implement the power profile correctly. I would hate to have to downgrade my head unit to solve a bug they wont fix. I also posted this on P1 support questions but heard nothing back from PowerTap.
Ray:
I am not convinced. I e-mailed Garmin about it and here is the reply I received (very quickly).
***
Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I’d be happy to help with your Edge 1000 question.
At this time, there are no plans to change the settings for the Crank Length options on Non-Vector power meters. This maybe something addressed in a future software update, but we have not heard any information of this changing.
Please let us know if you have anymore questions.
With Best Regards,
Nicholas
Customer Care – Fitness Team
Garmin International
913-397-8200
800-800-1020
913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Nicholas 8995370
http://www.garmin.com
***
So here is the question now: Which device really needs the crank length setting? Do the pedals send the same data regardless of crank length and leave it to the computer to interpret the data based on crank length, or does the setting of the crank length get transmitted to the pedal which then transmit crank length specific data. If it is the former, then what is Garmin’s default setting. If it matches my crank I may be all set. If it is the latter, than is there another way to tell the pedal what the crank length is?
I sent over a note about 30 minutes ago to the PT folks asking if they’ll release/create/etc a tool to set the crank length for non-supported head units (ala Vector). In theory this would be easy via the Bluetooth Smart app they have.
Still, as for support queries, I’d be careful in that being the last word.
Ray:
I am sorry to say that Garmin is not likely going to fix this. I e-mailed Garmin about this, and here is the reply I received.
***
Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I’d be happy to help with your Edge 1000 question.
At this time, there are no plans to change the settings for the Crank Length options on Non-Vector power meters. This maybe something addressed in a future software update, but we have not heard any information of this changing.
Please let us know if you have anymore questions.
With Best Regards,
Nicholas
Customer Care – Fitness Team
Garmin International
913-397-8200
800-800-1020
913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Nicholas 8995370
http://www.garmin.com
***
So here is the question. Do the pedals send the same information to Garmin computer regardless of the crank length setting and let the computer interpret the received data based on crank length, or does the setting in the Garmin computer get transmitted to the pedals and then the pedals send back crank length specific information? If it is the former, what is Garmin’s default crank length? If it matches my crank, perfect. If it is the latter, is there another way to tell the pedals the correct crank length?
I too was ready to order the P1 however I have the 920XT as well as the 1000 and don’t want to downgrade computers for power. I hope Garmin responds with a fix soon although their response does not appear positive?
I’ve posted here a few times in the comments already, but it seems to be getting lost in the shuffle. I’ll plop it in the post as well.
Garmin confirmed this past week to me (and then also posted it in the forums) that they’ll be releasing a firmware update for impacted Garmin models, most notably the FR920XT, Edge 1000, and Edge 520 to allow for crank length. They didn’t specify an exact timeframe beyond it being this fall (I’m waiting on the correct PR people to get that official timeframe), but I got the feeling it’ll be far sooner than later.
Ray,
Do you know if Garmin ever released that update? I’ve been trying to find a way to change the crank length in my 910XT and it appears that the ability to manually set the crank length disappeared. I can still do it on my Edge 810, so it seems counter intuitive that Garmin would release an update to fix some of these head units, then release another update that creates the same problem on another one.
Thanks!
Ben
I have a Garmin 910XT and it allows me to update the crank arm length. Under the About Forerunner menu selection is says the software version is 3.20. Hope that helps!
Ok that’s good to know. I have the 3.2 software on mine as well. How do you get to the page where you can change it? When I go to Settings->Bike Settings->Bike 1->Bike Details the only options I have to change are the bike name, weight, odometer and wheel size if I select more.
I don’t have a FR910XT in front of me at the moment (traveling), but isn’t it listed on the FR910XT sensor settings (i.e. the power meter)?
As a Garmin Vector user who has struggled with the very touchy fickleness of the pedals, I wish I could exchange them straight for the Powertap P1 pedals. It’s not just installation of Vectors that’s fickle, but updating or changing batteries can both lead to a pedal no longer registering or power numbers suddenly being off.
Always good to have new options, hope the P1’s continue to do well and drop the price of more power meter options.
Completely agree. Install is always a headache that requires the help of my wife to get the torque right (she is a saint putting up with this stuff). Then first time my batteries died and switched one pod was not functioning correctly afterwards. After wasting parts of a couple of days troubleshooting finally had Garmin agree the pod was the issue. At least they replaced it at no cost. All in all they are a bit of a headache, but do seem to work well. Reading this review makes me wish I held off an extra year though to get these.
Thanks for the detailed information Ray. Always appreciated.
Is that 80 hour battery life on standard AAA or the lithium ultra ones?
Neither. It’s 60 hours, not 80.
I received my P1s two weeks ago and have been very happy with them. The data has been in line with my Quarq and the ease of throwing them on any bike (track and TT) without worrying about BB size has been invaluable. I’m very glad with my purchase!
Wanna sell me your quarq?
Have you had any issues with riding fixed triggering incorrect Zero-offsets ?
I am also a trackie, and having some weird issues with my SRM
I had no issue with triggering incorrect off-sets.
See attached dataset from a Keirin.
Is the issue with standard Keo cleats intentional or something PowerTap might tweak/fix? The odd part to me is everything else is nice/normal/easy except this.
What do they expect a multi-bike consumer to do? Always swap on the P1s? Buy a second pair of shoes?
Thanks,
Steve
My exact thoughts also.
As a user of look pedals for almost 30 years, it seem’s odd to produce such a great product but leave a major (yet easily avoidable) niggle for customers, especially when there seems to be no design advantage. does revenue from future proprietary cleat sales really outweigh those now unsure about buying this otherwise excellent product? is it now better to wait for P1 v2.0 – with this anomoly hopefully addressed?
it required a better fit than the standard keo cleats.
that’s what the powertap crew said.
Great review! Will be ordering a set from Clever TRNG soon, thx!
Another great review – thanks.
Going to order a pair via Clever Training.
Been riding with my iPhone and Cyclemeter. Any way to pick up the power data from the P1 pedals with an iPhone?
Thanks again.
Thanks for the support via CT!
Yes, for new units ordered today you’ll be already on the BT-enabled firmware version, so you can use apps like Strava, Wahoo Fitness, PowerTap Mobile, and more.
Ordered via CT.
Been riding a Computrainer since ’96. Been waiting for the right outdoor power-meter and this is it!!
Thanks again.
Great review, certainly a compelling option!
Power2Max is down to $499, not just $599.
Any idea if they might do a speedplay version of these?
looks like it it between P2M & P1 for me at the moment, unless stages go duel sided in the not-to-distant future.
Considering they are more or less the same price +/- 10% (€land/Rotor crank P2M model), with the caveat that rides are often wet and dirty, what do you think between the P1 and P2M options?
I have some concerns about serviceability and possible water ingress with the P1 with the Northern Europe winter dirt and grime – and I have never had a pedal strike cornering but maybe the extra 5mm or so should make me nervous. Whilst the TdF was great to watch, Thibaut Pinot’s fall on Col d’Allos descent made me more aware of my pedals cornering – and don’t get me started on how much slower i was in the wet after watching the first week.
I’d also like to hear more about the water ingress…yes DC mentioned water resistant but I’m wondering to what point…just running through puddles or downpours?
I thought it was IPX7, but I’ll ask for confirmation.
With the design of the battery pod on the P1’s, it’s pretty well sealed. It’s got an o-ring and with the ability to lock it down via hex wrench, that’d be a bit better than others. I don’t believe there are any other openings into the unit except that.
I got reply they said can get wet but don’t know how wet. They did say can’t submerge in water but I wouldn’t do that…
Another question I’m wondering is what if a pedal goes out or dies…Will the pedals still provide power? I forgot where I read but you mentioned in a review that a pedal only measured from left transmits to other pedal then to head unit. But if that main pedal dies there won’t be power at all…is this the case for powertap?
Great question: We passed the IPX7 tests.
Is there a rider weight limit on these P1’s like the Garmin Vectors?
PowerTap says no (basically): link to twitter.com
No more than any traditional set of pedals. The reason the Vector has a limit is because Garmin put sensors inside the spindle. As a result, to make room for the sensors, the spindle structure got a little weaker. Powertap and Xpedo do not have sensors in the spindle, so it is just as strong as with any traditional pedal. In fact, I believe that Xpedo made the pedal for Powertap (not the electronics, just the pedal itself).
Hi,
Are these able to be used singly? i.e buy a set and share with someone else to reduce investment?
Thanks
C’mon, man, that’s addressed in the review:
“When you search for the PowerTap P1’s it’ll find a single ANT+ ID, just like other power meters on the market today. While you may have two pedals, that communication is channeled through one pedal and onwards to the head unit. Note that you can NOT split up the pedals and give one to a friend, and at present PowerTap states they don’t have much interest in selling a one-pedal-only unit (given they already sell the PowerTap C1 for roughly half the price, that would be a more logical direction if you’re budget constrained).”
Hi Ray, great review as always. It appears your pedals came with the 0 degree float cleats (black). Mine came with the 6 degree float cleats (red). I don’t see a place to specify them when you order through PowerTap. Did you request the 0 degree ones specifically and if so, how/where?
Separately, I’ll say I got a dud set initially – the left pedal crapped out with under 10 hours of use BUT PowerTap was super great customer service-wise and shipped me out a replacement set lickety split.
Not sure if this will help anyone else as I had the same question about cleat float. It appears from the CT product page that they ship the pedals with the red cleats. I’ve contacted CT support to find out about getting the 0 degree float cleats.
We do sell a zero degree float cleat via our website and anyone else carrying our product should have them as well. Let me know if anyone needs help finding some.
ok – i guess this answers my earlier comment.
whilst $20 isn’t a lot in absolute terms for a cycling accessory, i guess this whole cleat issue IS part of the powertap revenue plan. these cannot cost more than $2 to produce, but there you go….
How are the cleat durability? I have shimano spd sl. They still last me 5 years, still snug with rough wear from clipping in and out and walking during tours.
Do you think these pedals would work OK on a Fixed gear bike ? I am looking for a solution to swap between my various Fixed gear TT bikes and track bike.
I initially thought this was a stupid question, as I thought single-speed, rather than fixed (no-freewheel), but I get what you’re asking. I’d guess since you kind of brake with the pedals some of the time they’d register some kind of (possibly weird negative power?) numbers during those periods. Interesting…
Have you had any issues with riding fixed triggering incorrect Zero-offsets ?
I am also a trackie, and having some weird issues with my SRM
Hi Ray, me again. I think you meant “water-ingress” rather than “water-ingest”. Don’t know if you already have someone who copy-edits for you but I’d be happy to.
Do you know the weight limit on these?
Per John S’s comment above to Twitter, essentially no weight limit: link to twitter.com
No mention of P1 pricing in the article, even though pricing of the others is mentioned. So for completeness, the P1
pedals are $1199.
Love they are measuring both pedals. And that they provide bluetooth.
It seems that pedal-based systems are great for switching between bikes, whether you have more than one bike or are just concerned about upgrading bikes. The biggest downsides are needing to change cleat styles and a slight q-factor issue. As a SPD user the cleat style thing is what gets me :(
Re: trying to combine the data, I’m such a nerd that I wrote code to sync up two TCX records by finding the overlap where the differences were minimized- in other words, where the lines match up.
I hear ya on the SPD thing, man. I just bought a new tri bike and a pair of mid-range SPD pedals for it because that’s what I’m used to. A month later I bit the bullet and got the P1s. Although I “wasted” money on the new SPD pedals, I honestly like the fact that the force from my foot feels “flatter” across the pedals now instead of being just on the smaller SPD junction.
I DON’T like that I have to futz with clipping in more than I used to with my dual sided SPDs, but overall I think it’s a better riding experience.
Thank you for your work
Hello Ray,
Great review and for the first time, I feel like you really liked a product beyond compare which is very compeling to me haha !
One question regarding the type of crank: what about oval/non-round chainrings? Is it a bit like stage for Froome: you decrease by a certain percentage and you’re fine?
Thanks,
Nicolas
PowerTap has confirmed that the P1 does not support oval rings at this time.
Update, oval rings are supported. Sorry for the confusion. Their statement on it:
“Non-round rings are supported perfectly with the P1. We are taking 40 individual angular velocity measurements and subsequently 40 power measurements per pedal stroke. Any acceleration/deceleration within a pedal stroke would be measured. Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports low power when using non-round rings.”
Any idea how they’re able to do it (support oval rings) but Vectors cannot?
Likely just because PowerTap set aside the dev time to calculate it. Garmin has previously stated they could technically do it, but just haven’t spent that time from a development standpoint.
Sounds to me like something which needs to be confirmed (trust but verify, and all that)…shouldn’t be too hard ;-)
I bought a pair of P1’s right when it came out (first shipment)… have you seen issues with Right/Left Power ratios? I’m curious is if ts my 510 not picking it up or its the actual unit.
It’s looked pretty good to me, in looking at both Garmin Connect and Training Peaks. What have you seen?
(The Edge 510 would have picked it up in the same stream as the total power, so if it got any data, then it almost certainly got all data.)
After my 3rd ride it stopped working mid-way and never came back. It wont read on my 510 nor does it show when i download the file to Garmin Connect. Since then it has not worked at all, almost like the function doesn’t even exist. There isnt even a 100%/0% ratio just nothing… so not sure if its the P1 unit or my 510 acting crazy. Power file and cadence seems fine other than this one hiccup.
Ray,
Excellent review, I just received my pedals the other day “purchased from Clever Training”.
Question on the left/right power balance. It shows the power balance on my Joule GPS+ head unit when I’m riding, but when it’s uploaded to TrainingPeaks it doesn’t show up. It just shows a balance of 0/100%. I upload it via the Powertap App.
You mention above that you see your PB in TP, curious if you had any problems uploading initially.
Thanks in advance,
Jason
Thanks for the support Jason!
Someone somewhere in the 371 comments mentioned a bug in the PT app where it’s not transferring L/R balance to TP (or maybe it was that the app isn’t correctly capturing it). Either way, I’ll bring it up to PT this week when I see them at Eurobike.
Hey Ray, this is a little off topic, but you brought it up in the review. Are the issues you’re having with the Precision firmware related, and if so were they fixed with the latest update, or do you see bigger issues with the Precision?
I bought mine threw CT while 4iiii was offering a discount to early adopters, so it only cost me $300, but I’m really hoping I didn’t screw the pooch. I’m not usually an early adopter…
Thanks for all your work reviews,
cl
4iiii says they are firmware fixable, but that the fix for my specific issue hasn’t been rolled out yet. Said issue seems to impact certain pedaling styles, which can cause oddities with power (in my case, significant oddities).
Oddly enough, my pedaling style also hosed up Brim Brothers power meter a year ago too. I guess I’m special like that.
4iiii has recently said to me that they believe they have the issue identified, but are working to test out the update first. Thus, for now I’ve tabled it.
Hi Ray,
What problems did you have with the power oddities with the 4iiii, with mine power seems lower by around 20 watts aroundmy threshold compared to what I’ve done on a wattbike and my tacx sartori smart after rolldown calibration
So now you get me really curious.
What is your “special” pedalling style?
I’m not sure what’s special about my style, seems normal to me.
As for oddities, it was power being substantially lower (10-20%).
Power2max now starts at $499.
Thanks for the detailed review – I just ordered mine through CT.
I recall reading in a preivous post about the development of PM pedals for mountain bikes. I was wondering if these could be used and be useful on one?
Thanks!
Do the pedals affect Q-factor or stack hight compared to the regular Look pedals? They just seem very bulky in every direction. Thanx
Powertap’s FAQ says: stack=14 mm. That’s a bit more than other pedals. The standard Keo is also pretty high, but you can get down to 8mm or so with other pedals. Note that some manufacturers will include or exclude cleats.
It would be nice to get some independent verification.
This article says the q-factor is the same. Cornering clearance is likely a bit less, but likely not too much of a problem if you factor in shoe width.
Marco,
Berend is correct on the stack height difference. Depending which pedal system you are switching from you may have to raise your seat height a little but for most it is only 3-4mm. The Q-Factor, or center of pedal measurement, is the same as Look Keo at 53mm. Thanks for the question.
Great review!
Any chance of a 2015 edition of power meters buying guide being published soon?
In his review, he wrote:
“My plan is to publish an update guide in September, just like I have in years past.”
Arrr i see, must have missed that. Thanks.
No Watteam for the next few months? There go’s the summer release then. As a speedplay user running Duraace9000 which isn’t compatible with the C1 wanting to spend under $1k but very eager to train with power this is proving to be a frustrating time. 4iii accuracy problems. Stages water ingress and one sided. watteam delayed….grrrrr!!! Any advice? I guess I just keep waiting.
Hi Matt,
We’re launching very very soon- by the end of August we’ll have our online store working and you’ll be able to order the PowerBeat. Delivery is estimated in about 60 days from placing thew orders
formal annoncment will come at you in the next days- no worries, it’s hard but we’ve made it. the PowerBeat is ready
Hi Watteam,
Thanks for the reply…..really banking on your product to be the one for me!
Hey Ray, any chance you can confirm compatibility with the Mio Cyclo 505 head unit? I’m thinking not as Mio hardly ever puts out updates, let alone fixes their defects.
Note that the reviews are more robust while written under the influence, and or with a lack of sleep. Gets to the heart of user frustrations in a direct way – thank you!
Any idea if they work properly with a Fenix 2?
I have a Fenix 2 and they worked fine with it EXCEPT one weird spike where it said I output 59,000W (not a typo), thus throwing off my chart – the y axis is from 0 to 70k watts.
Signed vs unsigned “double” data type issue?
Thanks, Was not sure it had the Crank Length option or not, when configuring it.
I’ve also seen spikes to near 60,000W using a 910XT as head unit on two rides. The TCX files for both rides show a similar pattern with a smaller but still impossible jump in power for 1 second followed by a jump to ~60,000W for one second.
Ride 1:
2015-08-16T09:03:37Z
8.8000002
263
2015-08-16T09:03:38Z
8.4799995
6303
2015-08-16T09:03:39Z
8.7399998
59654
2015-08-16T09:03:40Z
8.3299999
132
Ride 2:
2015-08-08T15:50:47Z
3.2700000
223
2015-08-08T15:50:48Z
3.2200000
2484
2015-08-08T15:50:49Z
3.4100001
63574
2015-08-08T15:50:50Z
3.2600000
281
I’ve emailed PowerTap support but I suspect the 910 might be the problem. Has this been seen with any other powermeters on the 910 or Fenix 2?
I should have realised that the XML tags would be filtered out. First row in each group is time, second is speed (in m/s) and third is power.
I’ve seen it on my 920Xt and Garmin 1000 (and once on my 910XT).
James J, have you seen this with other powermeters or just the P1?
Fwiw, I have seen this on occasion with other power meters (getting more and more rare though). What’s interesting is that when I do see it, there are many cases where one head unit will show it, while another won’t.
Even more interesting is something I’ll see variations on two side by side head unit. For example I did a ride this weekend with a given power meter attached to the Edge 520 & Edge 1000. Each produced different metrics (significantly). Go figure.
The same problem with the Edge 800 unit paired with the P1 pedals: 2 rides with watt readings of +65.000 for 2 or 3 seconds.
Just the P1. I have uploaded my data to Golden Cheetah where you can exclude spikes (Training Peaks does it automatically) and a pop-up shows that sames something to the effect that crank or pedal based power meters can have something occur to screw up the data reporting with high spikes, including industry standard SRM.
I have never had this occur with my Stages or hub.
I talked to support for the P1, and there isn’t a way with Garmin head units to eliminate spikes or remove them from data (at least in Garmin Connect without outside tools) since they are aberrations. Training Peaks eliminates them, and you can filter in other apps (like Golden Cheetah).
With that said, if you are out for a ride and are using NP and/or TSS to gauge your workout–there is nothing you can do to eliminate the absurdly high ‘dot in time’ power spike that simply screws up the entire file (while riding).
Is this in real time on display of the Garmin? I have the edge 500 but wonder if this will be a problem. Does this effect the consistency and accuracy of power output?
Here is a screen shot of one of my rides. The one spike literally screwed up the entire ride. One can scrub it out later (not directly in Garmin Connect)–but not while you are riding (unless you want to start another activity).
Yes–it affects the real time display (see my post before with graphic). What I posted on with the graphic is what I saw on my head unit. The momentary spike screws up all the calculations of average power, NP, TSS, etc. from that point on. Post ride you can clean it up, but now while you are out there. With all that said, it hasn’t happened very often for me. The problem is that it is not predictable–so when it happens, it happens. If you scrub the second or two of false data, the rest should be unaffected.
JamesJ- we are aware of the 5 digit power spikes and are trying to replicate them but it is extremely random and has proven quite difficult.
Do you know if there are any areas where you ride with high levels of microwave transmission? If you were to go past the location where the spike originally occurred would it happen again?
Do you think that the spikes issue has its origin in the P1 themselves or in the combo P1+Garmin head unit (some of them at least)?
I’ve been using my Edge 800 with 2 Quarqs (Cinqo & Riken) and 1 Stages and never had any spike.
Well…I thought I would send screenshots of my workout file from Garmin. This was an out/back ride on a rails to trails with really only farmland and a river nearby–so really doubt any significant microwave source. No electrical lines running nearby. I had two spots during the ride out where I had a spike. I stopped my head unit and saved and started a new file when I returned. I will show the exact same spot coming back, and at no time on the return ride did I get a power spike. So…doubt there was a localized microwave issue on two segments of that ride; and, I did re-cross the same area and no issues.
Here is the ride out with first spike.
Ride back through same point:
Spike two ride out:
Ride back crossing through same area as spike 2:
I added several screenshots of the events (two going out on an out/back route and two comparative coming back). I should also note I’ve had two instances indoors riding on my rollers. There is perhaps the chance for some external reason for the spikes, but I do my workouts on the same equipment, computer, set up, head units, etc every time and have done multiple workouts in the same place and only had these two instances. I would think if it was some external source that it would have caused more problems (assuming microwaves/whatever would always be there).
I also had another event on a different trail–again in the country with nothing but farmland surrounding me:
I think it is a power spike output by the P1 pedals that the Garmin head unit picks up but there isn’t a setting on the head unit to ignore wattage readings over a certain level. So, I guess the answer is that if there was a way to either address the pedal OR a setting on the Garmin head unit to ignore false data (like setting a threshold for power that anything over it would not be included) would help.
My 705 started recording huge spikes a few months ago but also in speed. I could not get them to go away and presumed something must be loose inside the 705 (battery connection ?) . Switching from 1s sampling to smart recording made the problem go away but was not the best solution. I bought a 510 instead.
I was going to purchase this but seeing your data and issues, I wonder if i’ll have this problem…is it because you use more than 1 computer same time? i will only use my edge 500 and p1’s in my case however. but did you confirm with PT that its issue with ur pedals or garmin yet? i didn’t read much issues in the comments besides yours…and ray’s review didn’t seem to have issues in his testing…
I only use one device when riding outdoors to collect data. When indoors, I use one head unit device, and I have a computer that picks up the data while doing PerfPro workouts or TrainerRoad.So technically more than one thing is collecting data–just don’t ever have two head units collecting the same data. For me I set one for the P1’s and another for the hub or Stages.
I do not have a 500, so I can’t comment on if the issues I’m seeing would show up on that. I do believe you can set crank arm length with that device, My 910XT can as well, and I’m in the process of seeing if that makes a difference (i.e. not using a head unit like the 920XT or Garmin 1000 that can’t set the crank arm length).
I’ve been exp
Sorry, hit enter a tad early on the above post.
I’ve experienced these spikes too. PowerTap kindly (and efficiently) changed out one pair of pedals, but I’ve now got the same problem with the second set. Only on outdoor rides (not indoor with GPS off). All the symptoms are the same. I’ve had these spikes with two head units at once (920, 510) and just the 510 on its own.
I’m sure PowerTap will get this right. They are new equipment after all.
I notice on a garmin forum that the problem is also noted there, though they’ve suggested this coincides with an odd (high) cadence in the data file. I don’t see this in my garmin connect (but maybe the software scrubs improbable cadence reads). If I get motivated I’ll look in my XML and check this.
I’ve seen the power spikes a couple of times. It has happened 5 times over 27 rides (my wife and I are both using the P1s) and I have also seen spikes in cadence (my feet cannot move at 240rpms) and they do not coincide with the power spikes.
Is this a software glitch that I need to wait for an update for? Where is the issue (the garmin 100 head unit i have or with the pedals)? Or do I have faulty pedals that I need to return?
I am inclined to think its software since both sets of pedals have had the issue.
Trading finicky install for finicky cleat compatibility. I can control Vector install. Cleat wear, not so much.
I wasn’t the one to find this, but on the bottom of the cleat it says “RC-7.” PowerTap may have whitelabeled Ryder cleats because if you do a search for “RC-7 cleat,” you’ll find a very similar looking Ryder/Wellgo RC-7 cleat for cheap (which is advertised as Look compatability).
Patric, very helpful!
If I follow this correctly:
The Keo cleats don’t work in the P1s.
But the P1/RC-7 cleats claim they work in Keo pedals.
That’s not too bad actually, assuming these are able to be found long term.
Well, it’s not that the Keo cleats WON’T work with the P1s, it’s that PowerTap SAYS they won’t. I don’t have any Keos to test with, but Ray says the P1s work fine with new Keo cleats. That said, he also said the P1s don’t work with beat up Keo cleats. That may be why PowerTap says they don’t work – to cover their butts if people use busted up cleats provided by a third party.
That said, the RC-7s I found said they are Keo compatible, but again, I don’t know how true that is for new or busted up cleats because I don’t have the Keo pedals to test against.
FWIW, PowerTap’s response is to buy two pairs of shoes or swap cleats:
link to twitter.com
Unique cleat design for supply chain flexibility.
And they tweeted that they don’t recommend it.
Just seems very odd to me. All this flexibility and they assume you’re only going to ride bikes with P1s. And/or you’re going to keep two pairs of shoes?
From a response directly from Powertap om Slowtwitch: “We purchase the cleats for the P1 pedals from Wellgo, one of the largest pedal manufacturers in the world. So, our cleats work very well in the Xpedo pedals because they are the same cleats. There is no technical reason for using the Wellgo cleat over another. It is more an issue of a supply chain management than anything else.”
They also recommend these as a non-power pedal compatible with the same cleats as an alternative link to xpedo.com
Picked up a pair of Xpedo Thrust NXL as a “dummy” set pedals on eBay for $65. Plan is to leave the pedals on the bike attached to the Wahoo Kickr when not comparing data/controlling the Kickr with P1s. I can still ride if the P1s need to be sent in for service. NXL cleats are identical to the P1 cleats. Cleat engagement, disengagement and float are the same.
I thought this was very curious. I believe this is the company that makes the cleats for the P1. Looks like they also sell their version of the P1?
link to xpedo.com
I’m going to buy a set of their Thrust 8 CR for my spare bike so I don’t have to always swap pedals.
Think I would want to see a review of them first to see which is better, since they basically cost the same amount.
I don’t think they’re actually shipping yet. The Xpedo units have been a bit of an industry joke for years (like 3-4 years) of them always being “Just a few months away from shipping”.
I’ve less than 0% confidence they’ll ever ship anything functional on a power meter standpoint.
Note that despite some folks thinking otherwise, there’s no engineering cross-over between the two companies when it comes to the P1 product. The P1 was all in-house within PowerTap.
This looks like the Power Meter to get!
Yes please
Non standard cleats are a deal breaker for me. Is there a good reason for these?
link to twitter.com is their answer.
Why is there no comparison to the
Polar Look Keo power BT pedals ?
Thanks
As noted in the post: I don’t currently have a pair of Polar Look Keo pedals.
(And honestly, given how much more expensive those area, and how finicky the installation of them is, I see exactly zero reason to ever recommend them)
Great review! Thanks!
They really sound as good as I imagined them, and for me as a Campagnolo rider it’s either a pedal or hub powermeter. All crank or spider solutions are quite unsatifying imo. I guess I’d have already ordered them if they were available in Europe…Any infos on when that might happened?
Or I might have to go with the bePro one…which is cheaper and available.
Hi DTTM,
I ordered them in Germany and received them on the 4th. So they are available in Germany/Europe.
:-)
FWIW Movistar is using p2m with their campy gear
Ray, thanx for the review. It’s nice to hear the product does meet the requirements we need as a powermeter user.
I’ve already ordered a set. But two things do bother me:
1. Support edge 1000 (but i’m counting that Garmin will accept the vector isn’t the only pedalpowermeter anymore and adjust their firmware;
2. This is more important.
I’m disappointed to read there is no support for oval rings….?
With the introduction on March 17th you did answer on a question:
“DC Rainmaker replied
March 17, 2015 at 10:17 am #16
Ok, just got confirmation they will support q-rings, so all is good there.”
(this was on P1, the C1 won’t never support, I know)
I’ve got Qrings so i’m disappointed to make a forced choice now!
How is it possible on the side of PT that this functionality can change ??
Update, oval rings are supported. Sorry for the confusion. Their statement on it:
“Non-round rings are supported perfectly with the P1. We are taking 40 individual angular velocity measurements and subsequently 40 power measurements per pedal stroke. Any acceleration/deceleration within a pedal stroke would be measured. Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports [higher] power when using non-round rings.”
Enjoy!
Thanks for the review Ray. Nice work. :)
Very promising product.
As to the above quote from Powertap, they should amend it because it’s wrong.
“Other systems assume constant angular velocity, which typically reports **low** power when using non-round rings.”
What perhaps they should say is:
“Other systems which assume constant angular velocity artificially inflate power readings when used with the types of non-round rings typically in use today.”
The only way such a non-round ring would report lower than actual power is for the smaller diameter of the chain ring to be aligned with the crank being (roughly) horizontal. IOW rotated about 90 degrees from how most of these rings are set up.
cheers, alex
Good catch, indeed, I know it was sent from a mobile phone – so probably just a minor brain fart. I’ll note correct.
Mmm… Unnecessary geekery – I’m in!
my husband would love these!
I am currently using Cyclemeter with an iPhone and a Stages crank. I can set the offset using Stages own app, if I install P1s will I be able to use Cyclemeter (or Wahoo app) and be able to set crank length and perform calibration? Abvio (Cyclemeter) support say they do not expect to support these pedals at the moment. I don’t really want to have to buy a new head unit.
I just got a set today, and I don’t see the option to set crank arm length within the Wahoo app, nor can you pull both left and right power data (the CSV, which is more or less raw output, only gives left-side data).
BLE support wasn’t something I was able to test (yet).
That said, I’ll reach out to the Wahoo guys and see what’s up there. Note though that the Wahoo app would be giving you total power, not left power. For ANT+ channels when a device doesn’t support left/right breakouts it just gives total power (since technically it receives total power and then the percentage of the one leg as another field).
But that’s odd, because I know Wahoo supported Vector left/right since I had a long discussion with them about it a while back.
You should be able to set the crank length, We don’t have a set of P1 pedals but I do have Polar Look BTLE pedals and if the P1 pedals correctly indicate the support crank length then it should show up. I am trying to get a set of P1 pedals so we can look at testing support.
In the Wahoo app we currently only support a single BTLE power meter, the P1 pedals actually work as 2 individual power meters and this setup requires some big changes to our database and sensor management, its on the todo list but today we only support a single pedal and we double the power.
ANT+ is a little different since the pedals only show up as a single power meter with a percentage for left/right.
Having to specify the crank length confuses me. Previously I have read several times that Powertap claims that the P1 learns the angle of install and crank length after just a few revolutions thanks to the built-in gyroscope.
Does really every head unit support specifying crank length? What about “special head units” like PerfPro or so?
Great work as ever Ray. Have ordered through Clever Training. As an early adopter of Garmin Vector I’ve had a mostly trouble free experience over nearly two years of use. However I agree that the simpler installation process of the P1 is a big plus and also the fact that you don’t have a pod or a connector (with breakable pins) to worry about. Cycling dynamics just doesn’t seem to have any demonstrable value as of yet and even seems to be leading to some instability and battery drain issues for some users. So I’ll be selling my Vectors once my P1’s arrive. The only issue I have with the P1 design is why Powertap want to generate extra revenue through a proprietary cleat and the fact that they need to be sent in for service, always a pain with my G3 hub.
Fwiw, in checking with PowerTap the cleat/pedal form is actually the same as the Xpedo Thrust SL pedals, and thus one could go that route for extra cleats (or pedals).
Good info, but an odd brand to follow. More so odd that I’m seeing the Xpedo’s as being Keo compatible in many reviews.. Similar to how they make SPD/MTB friendly pedals.
I have a 5 sets of Keos on my and my wife’s bikes 3-4 pairs of shoes. My hope was buy these, swap them around as needed quickly and easily. Instead I’m looking at another $500 in compatible pedals. Or I can buy 2-3 power meters.
Don’t see that CT stocks the cleats.
Thanks Ray. Great to hear they are Xpedo cleats as that removes my concerns over them being proprietary and thus potentially hard to get hold of. I think it would make sense for Powertap to make this known in their product info.
I posted this below but will reiterate it here: it looks like the cleats are Ryder/Wellgo RC-7s. Pretty cheap to replace if you poke around the webs.
What do you mean by ‘need to be sent in for Service” ?
RC-7
ORIGIN： TAIWAN
OPTION： RC-7A (9 degree) / RC-7B (6 degree) / RC-7C (0 degree)
interesting
The pedals look so tall! I’d worry about pedal strikes when cornering. I guess time will tell.
If you are striking your pedals then you are doing pedaling or cornering wrong.
yes seriously – leg is up in the direction youre cornering too.
No doubt. But the reason I included the section was because people asked.
Just ordered through the link. Thanks for the detailed review and for getting us an awesome discount on them!!
Slightly left field question. Have you tested any power meters on mountain bikes? if so which would you recommend?
Unfortunately I lack a mountain bike (or a super-close place nearby to mountain bike). :(
Ray love your review and would love to get these pedals. My problem lies with having to use a hex wrench. I need to ride with pedal extensions. Currently with my Ultegra pedals I screw them in as tight as possible by hand and give them a little extra with a padded pair of channel lock pliers. They tend to work there way tight and I have never had a problem. Do you think this will be possible with these?
Thanks
Typo: “there’s no batter”. Battery.
Hi, looking for some clarification, do the P1s support rotor Q rings and do they work with carbon cranks?
Same questions to Watteam, also are powerbeats shimano cleat compatible?
Cheers
Yes to both for PowerTap P1.
For WatTeam, not initially on carbon. But they would be any cleat you want, since it’s not a pedal, but something that fits in between.
Cheers Ray, I thought the powerbeats where pedals.
Really interested in the P1s, I have 4 bikes and they are all shimano cleats and pedals, do you know if Powertap will be doing a shimano cleat fitting in the future?
I could just keep one pair of road shoes with the Powertap cleat but I like to try and keep things compatible between my bikes.
Thanks again and great review.
Do you have a referral code for a UK site that I could buy from to help you out?
So here’s an interesting recommendation question:
I bought a Vector S, despite the finicky install, because pedal-based was a deal-breaker for me; switching between 3 bikes with different gearing, BBs and cranks made it pretty much the only practical choice on a budget.
Now that I have saved more money to spend, would you recommend S users to upgrade to the full Vector 2S system, or honestly just ditch and start over with the Powertap P1 Pedals?
My biggest gripe has been the ‘mostly consistent’ power, that I’m never sure if it’s right or not (other user’s exp.), and if it is right, it’s roughly 10-20W too high (I compared in the lab to an ergometer and a quarq).
Thanks!
Yeah, that’s part of the challenge with left-only (one-leg only) power meters. You’ll never really be sure because of that legged difference.
As for going from S to full, that’s a tough one. You’ve kinda already invested there – so it’s cheaper to go that route. At the same time, your setup is more complex. Albeit in most cases once its setup (if not moving bikes) you’re good to go.
Thanks Ray for another great review.
Finally: I found “my” PM. But where to buy??? CT isn’t shipping to Europe!
Is there somebody out there who found already a dealer in Germany or Europe??
CT can ship globally for certain products…
Hmm, I’ve ordered them from Clever training with delivery address in Norway. The order was confirmed without any hazzle. Yesterday I received an update about the delivery status.
In other words, it seems that they’ll ship these to Europe.
That’s what I’ve always liked about my powertap hub. You can pretty much ignore that it’s there, and it gives me reliable power. Kudos to Powertap, that they’ve kept it simple. I’m not really in the market for another power meter right now, but it would be hard to compete with the simplicity of this product.
er… you drink Rose’? :) (When I do… I don’t admit it)
In France it’s totally acceptable in summer. In Wisconsin? Not…so…much.
Sounds like a really great option – except that I would really not want to give up on my Speedplay pedals now that I am used to them…
I’ve got 4 bikes (I keep my old ones) with Keo cleats and 3 pairs of shoes so if they were tight fitting with Keo, I’d buy it in a second. I’m currently moving my stages around from bike to bike when I switch from tri to road.
Stuart, not in a very different situation, I’d suggest reading: link to twitter.com
Wow, what a great giveaway!
Im pissed at Garmin. I have a Garmin 1000. I have complained that I cannot set crank length on the PowerTap pedals. Here is their response:
Dear [Customer],
Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I’d be happy to help with your Edge 1000 question.
At this time, there are no plans to change the settings for the Crank Length options on Non-Vector power meters. This maybe something addressed in a future software update, but we have not heard any information of this changing.
Please let us know if you have anymore questions.
With Best Regards,
[Garmin Support]
Even more disturbing is that a friend of mine is a triathlete and uses a Garmin 920. Version 2.5 of the 920 firmware paired to his pedals and he was able to set the crank arm length. Worked great. Recently new firmware was available, version 5.2. he upgraded and now he can no longer set crank arm length. The “crank length” choice is no longer in the menu.
Garmin is essentially saying you cannot use their head units with anything but Garmin pedals, even though my PowerTap pedals are an ANT+ certified power meter. At first I thought this was just an oversight but now its becoming clear that they are doing this on purpose. Garmin is worried about Vector sales and this is how they are dealing with it.
So I got confirmation from PowerTap that they will be adding the set crank length option in the app. However, they are slightly concerned (still researching) as to whether or not a unit that doesn’t support the crank length (i.e. the Edge 1000) would/might send the default crank length and overwrite whatever was on the pedals. They’re doing some tests and will circle back.
Hmmm this could get messy as my understanding (from personal experience and Vector forum see link to forums.garmin.com) is the crank length setting in a bike profile overwrites any default value stored in the Vector pedal and by implication a default stored in a P1 pedal.
Hope they sort this out in the Edge 520 code base!
That was always my understanding as well, and I think that’s what the PT guys are saying too. Their concern (which may not be an issue at all) would be if the Edge 1000 sent a default crank-length as part of the pairing (i.e. the usual 172.5), which would dork things up.
An ugly option here is to modify the garmin Settings.fit file with your crank length on the PC then re upload it to the edge. Alan on Garmin forums did this for me last night. I am trying it out today and will report back.
This has a strong wiff of anti-competitive behavior. Removing feature compatibility for a 3rd party product (when they support the feature for their pedals) might be good grounds for a suit or FCC investigation. Garmin is has the largest market share and thus the largest ability to do harm to the customer and limit competition.
How did it work Chris?
I’m interested to know if this works – if it does, it looks like it should be pretty easy to knock together a utility program to modify the Settings.fit file to change the crank length (using the FIT SDK).
Someone on the Garmin Forums was able to take the Settings.fit from the Edge 1000 and update the crank length. But you can’t just share that because it has specific pairing/device information for each device – so it wouldn’t work just passing it around.
As for Garmin being anti-competitive – I’d really slow-roll a bit more there. First, I don’t believe anything support says, ever. They’re the last people to know (no offence to them, but they really are). Second, they found out at the same time as I posted this. I don’t think they did it on purpose, as otherwise they wouldn’t have enabled it on other devices. I think you’re really just looking at a coding oversight since the use case isn’t common.
I know discussions are happening, so I’d just let those play out over a few days.
I can confirm this works. I changed my settings.fit file to 175 on the edge 1000.
Excellent Chris, Alan hooked me up as well and I loaded the file tonight. Ride planned for Saturday to see if all is well.
I would assume the crank length is “bike specific” and not “pedal specific” (same crank length on a given bike, regardless of what pedals you install).
You can create bike-specific profiles with the Edge 1000 (called “activity pro-files”). For each bike, you can set the crank length on the Edge 1000 (if paired to Vector pedals).
Then, if you use PowerTap P1 pedals, even if the Edge 1000 “overwrites” to the PowerTap pedals (an assumption to be verified), it should be overwriting the cor-rect crank length for that bike profile (“activity” profile).
So, until the bug is corrected just get the correct crank length of your “bike profile” using a friend’s Vector pedals (don’t even mount them, just pair them) and then in-stall the PowerTap P1 pedals.
Question: Is there really a “default crank length” pre-programmed in the Edge 1000 for Vector pedals? If so, what is it?
.
With the Edge 1000, you can’t specify the crank length on the Activity Profile, only on the paired sensor. This is because of the sensor pool concept means that an activity profile could well be associated to sensors from 4-5 other bikes.
The default crank length programmed for Vector is 172.5mm.
very cool!
What sort of differences did you see in AP and NP for entire rides?
I wouldn’t generally use AP/NP as a great indicator for power comparisons because it’s easy to make those two align while having all of the details be different.
hello Ray great as usual,
My question is actually I have a power hub in my tribike for 7 years now and I am looking to buy a new power meter, I thought the pedal option is best as I want to switch bikes sometimes, but …
I have a MTb and my tribike does the p1 work on an MTb bike. Does it make sense, or is there any other better solution?
Marc
Unfortunately I don’t have a mountain bike (or nearby mountain bike trails). Technically speaking you could install it on a mountain bike, but I don’t think there are a ton of mountain bikers using Keo pedals.
Hi Ray,
Thanx again for your thorough review.
Seriously considering to by the PT P1, but 2 questions.
Question related to the (possible) issue with setting the crank arm length on Garmin head units: I read in a comment that besides the Edge 1000, now also the FR 920XT prohibits the setting of the crank arm length. Can you confirm or deny that? Are they deliberately doing this to protect their Vector sales?
Second question: I, myself, have both the Edge 810 and the FR 920XT, but are their any data that cannot be received on those head units, that do appear on the Joule GPS+? I know that the Garmin Cycling Dynamics cannot be displayed, because they are not provided by the PT P1, but I mean it the other way around. In other words, do I also need to by the PT Joule GPS+ to receive some data send by the P1, that cannot be displayed on Garmin head units?
Regards,
Devi
I’d love to hear the answer to both of these questions as well!
Is this a general requirement for pedal based PMs that crank arm length is specified?
Here we’re only talking about Garmin head units but what about more exotic ones: for example BSX’s lactate measurement device or PerfPro indoor trainer software. Do you have to specify crank arm length with these? Are these apps capable of this?
A requirement of the physics. To get power, you need to integrate the product of the force applied tangent to the circle the pedal is traveling (measured by the strain gauges in the pedal) times the speed of the pedal. A larger circle (longer crank length) will produce more power for a given cadence and force because the pedal is moving faster. It’s a linear relationship, though, so assuming a crank is 172.5 mm when it’s actually 175 mm produces an error of 2.5/175 or about 1.4%. Looking at the plots above, that seems to be well within the actual accuracy of the measurement, so it would only actually matter for people using unusually long or short cranks. Still, they should fix the 1000 to allow crank length input; no point in allowing this error if it can easily be fixed.
Oval and non-round supported, OMG ! This product seems perfect =D
Another probably stupid question for everyone. Would I be able to get the TSS/NP/IF data if I’m using the P1 with an Edge 800 for example?
What kind of data metrics can I get live on my head-unit and then in Garmin/Strava/TP?
Thanks a lot,
Nicolas
Yes, any head unit that supports TSS/NP/IF will work with the P1’s, as that layer is up one level from the actual head units used..
You’ll get those on the unit itself (Edge 800 and above) as well as in Garmin/Training Peaks. I don’t remember offhand if Strava shows those natively (I didn’t think so).
Strava does not show TSS/NP/IF, and the reason is most likely that those terms are registered trademarks of Peaksware LLC (which is actually the legal name of the company that runs TrainingPeaks). The reason that Garmin can use the terms TSS,NP and IF is that the terms are used under a license from Peaksware.
However, Strava does have its own in-house terms for similar concepts, including Suffer Score, Weighted Average Power and Intensity.
Hi Ray,
Quick newbie question – if you’re looking at pedals as a source of true left/right power diffs, doesn’t the fact that you’re working with 2 different power sensors each with +-1.5% accuracy potentially throw a spanner in the works in some way?
Cheers,
Crossbox
Nothing tangible that I’ve seen thus far with the P1’s or other pedal based units.
Thanks for the write-up. I’ve been toying around with the idea of getting a power meter and like the pedal-based approach, but Vectors seem too finicky, esp when talking to 910xt from what I’ve read.
Question regarding ‘head unit’ references: Is FR910xt good enough as the sole communication to the PT P1 or is another unit needed for some of the apps you refer to? Does the 910xt allow crank arm length to be set? and is there any testing on wearing the 910xt on your arm versus mounted on handlebar (with regards to picking up PT P1 data)?
910XT works with the P1 pedals and can be used as the sole device.
You can set the crankarm length.
It will pick up the data just fine on your arm or handlebar mount–I’ve had it in both places.
Thanks for the review. You forgot to mention the blessed o-rings on the Vectors which seem to shred or stretch every other time you transfer the pedals to a new bike. Garmin is obviously so used to getting bitched at about them that they sent me 5-packs full of O-rings without even asking for payment. But, as you point out, the thing that pisses one off most are the need for the heavy torque wrench while traveling.
I think I’ll be ordering a set of P1s as soon as they’re back in stock and selling my Vectors. And on that note why not try and get some European affiliate deals set up with places like Wiggle, Bike-discount.de, etc. as I’d be happy to help you out by going through your links.
Good news there in that things are signed for a European deal for DCR folks. Unfortunately, it’s just been taking a fairly long time to get through the technical integration pieces to make it seamless for folks. :(
Hurray!
You did not mention cornering clearance relative to the keo pedals and high wattage differentials, like climbing at 400+ watts standing and seated at varying cadence and sprinting. Thoughts?
I’ll try and do some clearance difference tests.
As for high wattages, I did plenty of standing and seated 500+ sprints and cadence sweeps successfully from 30RPM to 170RPM.
Still getting my head around all this and especially around those easily portable power meter option (Pedal based mainly).
Is it fair to say that PT P1 is definitely the best option if you seek for:
– Accuracy but most importantly consistency;
– Compatible with round/non-round cranks;
– R/L true information;
– No calibration required;
– Real portability from one bike to another without any risk.
And I saw a comment about service (just like SRM in a wat) being required once in a while? Is it true, how often would it be, how costly?
I also thought that the Vector2 made the portability easier than before with no need of precision wrench like the first version? Am I wrong?
300$ isn’t a huge difference but still P1 seem to beat the competition and Vector2…
Sorry for so many question but your knowledge would help me to invest quite a lot of money in something I would truly enjoy without almost possible regret.
Looking forward to order via CT to support this great work !
Wear on the pedal body and on the spindle bearings will largely come down to the mileage you do and the conditions you ride in. Riding many 1000’s of miles through the UK winter has a way of wearing out all bike components. This is what powertap say about servicing:
‘Justin Henkel · 2 months ago
The bearings in the pedals should last several years before showing any signs of wear. When they are in need of maintenance or replacement you will need to send them to us for service.’
I would agree that for those requirements in looking for a pedal based power meter, it’s really the best option out there today (cheaper pricing aside).
Enjoy – and I definitely appreciate the support via Clever Training!
Are the cleats widely available? It seems strange they’d go with the Keo platform because that’s what most of the people are on (as per their own words) only to then make it almost a necessity that people use their own version of said cleats if they want to get more than one month out of them.
If they could get that sorted and drop the weight a bit (440g is a bit hefty) they’d have a clear(er?) winner.
PowerTap alluded on Twitter to why they went with different cleats: link to twitter.com
“The P1 pedals come with proprietary cleats, which we recommend using with the pedals, it did give us a lot more freedom in terms of supply chain management and customization.”
I suspect what they are saying is that they had limited vendors they could work with (I wouldn’t be surprised if Polar has an exclusive agreement on power meter pedals from Keo). Which is why you see Garmin partnering with Exustar. In fact, it might be really interesting to know whether or not Garmin’s pedals/cleats exactly match Keo, or are just a tiny bit different enough to avoid legal issues. If you look back at some of my earlier Garmin Vector posts in an interview with Clark Foy he goes into all of the business reasons why they wanted to use a 3rd party (mainly around warranty and ownership of any problems).
To that end, I suspect PowerTap had to basically do the same thing. Just a guess…
I’m not repping to the compatibility of any cleats, but the P1 cleats say RC-7 on the bottom of them and look a lot like the Ryder/Wellgo RC-7 cleats that are $10 on Amazon.
But Garmin’s pedals, as I understand it, are Keo friendly, correct? Slightly different to keep the lawyers away but interchangeable none the less. And they claim it.
Here with powertap it is close, but not interchangeable.
If they would bless using the RC-7 cleats in Keo pedals, as Wellgo/Ryder has, that would resolve this for me. Keo’s on the non-P1 bikes, all shoes w/ RC-7 cleats, order a small stockpile of RC-7 cleats for emergencies or in case supply becomes a problem.
Look Keo cleats work perfectly in my Garmin Vector pedals.
I’m confused as to why Powertap are suggesting ‘their’ cleats aren’t Keo compatible when clearly they are Xpedo Thrust SL/Wellgo RC-7 cleats. Both of these brands are sold as Keo compatible and reviewed as working in Keo pedals by many users.
I’ll report back on my experience once my P1’s arrive.
They’ve got no upside to claiming compatibility issues if they weren’t there.
I noted I saw them using regular Keo cleats (well worn) ones) in them, but had no problems using newer cleats.
Additionally, I know on the media ride someone mentioned having problems as well when they didn’t swap out.
Agree no upside to claiming compatibility that isn’t there.
Would be good to cite any compatibility that is there. For example officially confirm:
– The cleats are indeed RC-7s
– The other Wellgo/Ryder pedals that use RC-7 would work with the P1’s cleats.
These two seem simple. IF the RC-7s work in Keo pedals is more an issue I’d think. I suspect PowerTap’s testing revealed that the “Keo Compatible” claim on the RC-7 design wasn’t quite true
Thanks for the discount code. Just ordered my first power meter today and saved $120!!
Thanks for the support Larry!
Thanks for the great review. I’ve always been intimidated by power meters related to how they work, installation, etc. With the ever-increasing options that are now available it seems like a good time to highly consider this tool as part of my training. These pedals look very promising to me and your insight has been valuable. Quick Question: Are there any issues with the use of these pedals with a 920XT? Will it have the same quirks as the Edge1000?
I have not tried them yet with the 920XT. I did however do almost all of my testing with the Epix, which shares much of the same platform with the 920XT.
If your 920 is still running firmware version 2.5 the unit will operate with the P1 nicely. you can pair to the P1 and set crank arm length. If you upgraded the 920 firmware to 4.2 or 5.2 (available in the last couple of months) you will no longer be able to set crank arm length for the pedal but you will be able to pair to it. The “set crank arm length” choice missing from the menu. However, in FW 4.2 and 5.2 the default crank arm length is 172.5. If the 920 detects a different crank length in the pedal, it will set the pedal to 172.5. There is nothing you can do about it other than not use the 920. The P1 pedal default crank length setting, out of the box, is 172.5.
I’ve only done 3 or 4 rides with my P1’s. I’ve found them to be great with my Edge 510, but numerous dropouts (of both cadence and power) when using with my 920xt. Any suggestions? I’d love for you to see how they go with your 920 at some point. Also, I use 165mm cranks on my tri bike and 170mm on my road bike so if Garmin update the firmware in the 920 I’d love to see an easily adjustable crank length.
I assume you’re in aero position? If so – try putting the unit on a different wrist, or just somewhere else as a test. Most of the times when I hear of dropouts with the tri watch series and power meters it’s usually due to blockage issues. These are a PITA to solve though, because wireless signals act in weird ways and it’s often down to a single device and how the signal bounces around your body/bike/etc…
Hey Ray
Did you try and pair with the Polar V650 by any chance? Polar have advised via facebook this week that the next V650 firmware update will include some 3rd party power meter support… Fingers crossed it’s more than just Stages!
The unit I had didn’t have the BT stack fully enabled, thus, I couldn’t test that yet. Once they enable over the air updating in the next 1-2 weeks, I’ll test and post results within the review.
Ah right, I misread that section of the review. My apologies.
Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to hearing further.
Ray, first off, thanks for the great review. I’ve been waiting for this one for a while now. Have you had a chance to test these pedals with the 520? Does it have the same crank length issues as some of the other Garmin head units?
Also, someone asked about 0 deg float vs 6 deg float cleats. I don’t see an option to select cleat type on the CT site.
Okay, talked to CT support and found this on the CT website. They only sell the pedals with the 6 degree float option.
Anyone tested these pedals with the Edge 520 yet?
The listings for the additional versions should show up on CT today.
The fact that you cannot set the crank arm length on the 1000 and on new firmware for the 920XT… does it affect you if you actually have 172.5 crank arms?
IOW, since the default is 172.5, only run into problems if you run 170 or 175, or any other crank arm length, right?
I’d be confident that Garmin is working on it… support never knows what is going on, they simply use the standard answer ‘there are no plans’ because they are instructed never to set any expectations….
Hello
For you, Do you think with this pedals the +- 1.5% is ok, work fine like a srm?
I have the suunto ambit 2 watch, but it’s impossible to wrige the crNk left, do you know if it will be possible on the future
Thanks very mutch
Mitch
Yes, as covered in the accuracy section I think the pedals are just as accurate as any other successful power meter on the market, including SRM.
On the Ambit2 watch, you can pair to ANT+ power meters, but no Ambit watches show left/right power at this stage. I wouldn’t expect any further firmware updates for the Ambit2.
Great write up as usual Ray,
I was looking forward to these. As a G3 owner with campag and shimano setups, this was going to solve a real headache. I also use the bike on the turbo and swapping tyres can be a pain.
But I’m really disappointed/puzzled by the cleat design. Was this a patent issue by powertap that they couldn’t replicate Look cleats? I can’t see how, Lifeline and other budget offerings have Look compatible cleats. It’s odd but really rules these out for me as the simplicity of swapping between bikes is rendered useless.
If I have Keo on one bike (say for racing, when I don’t necessarily want the power or weight) and my powertap on the other, I either have to:
a) Swap cleats – not a fan of this, given how sensitive my pedalling (and I’m sure most people are) to small changes in cleat position.
b) Buy another pair of shoes – one pair for powertap, one pair for Look pedals.
c) Swap the pedals between bikes each time I ride – I’m doing this at the moment because I’m down to one set of pedals, and it’s not much more convenient than swapping wheels/tyres.
I’m not sure why Powertap would go with their own cleat, surely it’s not really something that is going to drive massive sales and it’s definitely making me think I’ll stick with the G3 until a real “plug and play” system comes along.
i suspect that there must be a technical reason for proprietory cleats.
PT themselves said this on ST, which I read as: the P1 uses the same cleats as the Xpedos.
“We purchase the cleats from one of the largest manufacturers of pedals, Wellgo. Of course I would recommend you just purchase another set of P1’s for your other bike ;) but if you were looking for another set of non-power pedals the Xpedo Thrust SL would be a good option.”
Thomas, do you have a link to that? On Twitter, they provided the inverse information.
just get a pair of race shoes and problem solved
link to forum.slowtwitch.com
Who knows what he means by “a good option” though, I suppose someone just has to give it a go.
There’s also the Thrust NXS, for half the price of a SL. Both seems to be using the same cleats.
For those interested, I added a section around the impact of pedal height on cornering, you can find that here: link to dcrainmaker.com
Enjoy!
Hi Ray – would downloading the setting file from the Garmin 100 head unit and adjusting the crank arm lenght manually in the file and reloading the edited file to the head unit fix this issue?
edit – Garmin 1000
Yes, that’s the current operating assumption by a number of folks. A few more details here in this Garmin Forums thread on it: link to forums.garmin.com
Hopefully it’ll get quickly sorted out by one or both of the companies.
Fwiw, I was able to validate that a FR920XT on the latest firmware does not show crank length as an option when connected to the P1. Epix on the latest firmware does.
I then grabbed one of a few Fenix3’s I had sitting in a bit, in particular one I hadn’t updated in a long time. That one was on firmware version 2.30, and after connecting to the P1’s it did indeed show crank length as an option.
For fun, I updated the firmware to the latest firmware, and the option is still there as well.
Im still not happy with Garmin…we have done some more testing with my friend’s 920…using another brand/model of head unit we set crank length on the P1 pedal. It seemed like our problem is solved.
But as soon as you fire up the 920, it pairs to the pedal and sets the crank length right back to the default (172.5). We set the length to 170 and 175. The 920 reset the value to 172.5 each time.
At this point I think the only thing we can do, if we want to use our 920, is to send in our “Settings.fit” file to the link mentioned earlier in the comments to get our default value changed. Painful.
The work around fix for setting the crank arm length by manual entry into the settings file worked. Alan (Thank You) over on the Garmin forum verified the setting remained post ride and the data looks very consistent with the past 5 rides on the same route using a G3 hub. Hope Garmin can get this fixed ASAP with the next update.
Great review as always! Do you know if the issue with the Garmin 1000 (not showing the zero option) is fixed? That is the only thing holding me back at this point.
No, not yet. It’s being discussed by both Garmin and PowerTap, but nothing yet has changed.
Some folks have had success getting their Settings.FIT files posted to the Garmin Forums and then someone there tweaks the file so that it has the correct crank length. Once that’s done they’re good to go.
I looked into Settings.fit file a tiny bit with some general FIT tools (a few here: link to dcrainmaker.com) – but I didn’t see those specific settings enumerated visibly in that tool, otherwise I would have wrote-up a quick how-to guide.
Thanks Ray another great review.
A related question I have regarding power meters. Some months ago you indicated you were evaluating Verve Cycling’s InfoCrank – but have not seen any recent information. Are you planning to review the Info Crank? From what I have seen on their site they claim to one of the most accurate meters that once installed does not require constant calibration. Interested to hear your opinions.
Thanks
Ritchie
Indeed, I’m horribly late behind on publishing that. The data, photos, etc… have been done for months. Just a case of me writing up the text.
Like most things here, priorities change based on reader interest. And unfortunately for Infocrank there is less interest than on other products. That said, my goal is to publish it in the next 1-2 weeks. August is sorta my grand catch-up month right now. Making moderate progress there.
Ray,
Do you have any thoughts or knowledge about a Power Tap android app appearing in Google play?
Theo
I believe that’s part of the planned app release in the next 1-2 weeks, but I’ll let PowerTap confirm.
Hey Ray – I’ve not been able to find any info on whether the Garmin Edge 500 will allow for crank length selection when pairing? I’d prefer not to have to get a new computer and was hoping it was possible though can’t find the info anywhere. Thanks for the help!
Yes, I just grabbed an Edge 500 and was able to pair as well as set the crank length (via bike profiles). Enjoy!
Excellent. Thanks Ray!
I don’t find the option on mine. The powermeter is paired, i can see its id if i go in the details menu (not sure of the exact name, my menus are in french). In the bike detail, i can only set wheel size. Where exactly can you set the crank length ?
Nevermind, found the option, the powermeter must be active, and it’s on the same page as the wheel size. Thanks for the info, i wouldn’t have checked this menu if i didn’t know it was possible somewhere, and sorry for the noise.
hi ray,
on the weights you have shown, does this include the battery too? im wondering if this weight gain on my current pedals will have much negative influence on my pedaling/energy/speed…inertia playing a role? any opinions on that? thanks again!
Yes, includes the battery (it was inside the pedal at the time).
No idea on changes in inertia, but it’s certainly not something I’ve noticed.
so, i just got my pair and tested it with a garmin edge 500. No crank length option as i feared, i will wait for a way to change it with an app (android or windows with an ant+ stick would be nice).
I noticed another thing: while doing single leg exercices, power works with the left leg, but remains 0 with the right leg. If i do the same thing with the foot clipped in, it works. The moment i unclip the left foot, power goes away. Not sure if it’s normal due to the master-slave pedal relationship, to my head unit, or if it’s a bug. Can someone confirm ?
(Edit: Found the option!)
I did my first test ride with the P1s yesterday (ordered via CT) and noticed the exact same behavior. I’m using a 500 as well. Given the right pedal warning glitch, I was concerned that it was busted…
I have a G3 on that bike as well. I’ll have to do a side by side comparison one of these days.
Don’t know what I was thinking. I have an Edge 800 (not a 500).
I noticed the same thing today. When only using right leg (left unclipped) power goes to 0w. Also, when not pedaling balance shows 100% – 0%. But when I pedal whit my right leg (with left clipped in), I can see balance shift from one left to right. Is this normal? anybody else has noticed this?
Yes, PowerTap confirmed this behavior. It’s due to be fixed in the next firmware update.
Is there any update on this? I have just purchased and am experiencing this issue too. I’m concerned that this is related to the right pedal drop-outs also. If I open a csv of the log, I can see that the balance splits to exactly 0.5/0.5 many times during the ride. This seems to be somewhat unlikely in that 1) I know I have a wonky leg, and 2) the remainder of the records show something like 5 decimal places, so to be hitting exactly 0.5 0.5 seems suspicious. Even when close it’ll still read 0.49xxx and 0.50xxx etc.
I can improve things by reading the individual bluetooth channels from the pedals, but then I need to start carrying too many devices. My pain cave is already looking too much like Ray’s!
Regarding 0 WATTS when doing single-leg pedaling drills with my right leg: I’m using the P1s, paired with a Garmin 1000, as well as PowerTap’s mobile app, and I’ve observed the SAME PHENOMENON. Right-legged, single-leg pedal drills yields 0 watts on the Garmin head unit. (Don’t be confused by balance ratings which, presumably, use an algorithm to composure right-leg data based on left pedal results.) But the right pedal does work and is broadcasting data, via the left pedal, as single-leg drills using the right leg DO APPEAR to register on the PowerTap mobile app. Presumably this is a compatibility issue with Garmin.
Anyone else observe the same? Anyone fixed this?
I asked PowerTap support about this in June and the response was:
“That’s because the right pedal isn’t spinning on its spindle. Try again, but this time rest your right foot on the pedal, without actually pushing hard. This will keep it spinning and will in turn show proper data. ”
Not really workable, I need to unclip the other foot to do individual leg drills without cheating.
I haven’t tested this since June because I’ve only just got back on the turbo and my pedals have been back with PowerTap again for a couple of weeks. I should get a replacement pair tomorrow though.
I should add, I experienced the same problem – RIGHT leg only showed as 0 power. The reply from PowerTap got it the wrong way around.
Lev H,
Make sure you are on the latest version of firmware, which can be checked and updated with the PowerTap Mobile App (iOS) or the Virtual Training desktop software using a BlueGiga dongle.
Here is a little background on the issue your are seeing: When operating normally (both feet) cadence is taken from the left pedal only to better manage start/stop situations for faster response time. The latest firmware allows for tunneling of right pedal data even if the left if not turning, which earlier firmware did not allow for.
It’s not Garmin, I have the same issue on a Wahoo Elemnt. I’m sure I’m on the latest firmware, and I saw the issue yesterday – but below Justin suggests it should be fixed. I will check firmware and try again when on the turbo tomorrow
Paul,
I spoke to Aaron at PT today. He offered the exact same suggestion that received, namely, “Unclip from your left pedal, but lay your left foot gently above it, and pedal with your right leg.” He went on to explain that the right pedal will transmit the data to the left pedal, but if the left pedal isn’t spinning on its spindle, it’s as if the left is “asleep” and will not broadcast the data to a Garmin device. However, based on my experience, the right pedal data does make it to PT Mobile. I’ll try their inelegant hack tomorrow to see if it works.
Aaron also noted that they are working on allowing the pedals to make separate (left and right) BT connections to the Garmin and similar head units, which would retire the issue altogether.
Justin,
While my firmware is up to date, Aaron at PT reports that ONLY if the left pedal is spinning will it broadcast data (which is consistent with my experience). I’ll test their hack (resting the left foot, unclipped, on top of the pedal so that it spins) tomorrow.
I contacted PT last year about this. They didn’t at the time do any testing with a garmin head unit, just their own! There is also the issue of display when coasting going to 100-0 rather than 50-50.
I’d like to hear about this as well. I had asked here already too like how does the data transmit…also emailed powertap but no response yet. I was about to purchase but not confident enough…
Hi Ray, Several questions/remarks:
– did you try to use rechargable AAA batteries? Just curious if they will work
– On the cleat matter: what I read on the tests of the Xpedo Thrust pedals is that they are Look Keo compatible, but the float of the Look Keo cleat will be 0. If you want float, you need to buy the Xpedo cleats.
– Does any body know if there are spacers for these cleats? My left leg is a liitle shorter (and left calf muscle is 5cm less in diameter; which is the reason that any left only approach for me is crap; keep on guessing) and by adding a spacer of just 2 mm I could notice a power increase on my tacx of about 10 watts. Probably I can reuse the Shimano SPD spacers and may be with the help of a Dremel make them fit. They come in a pack for just 6-8 euro’s.
btw: nice test and I’m on the point of ordering a pair. The ease of use/installation is a great selling point
No, I just used plain non-rechargeable AAA’s.
Bikefit.com has some options that may work. I’ve ordered cleat wedges and they work great for my knee pain. I did not like the screws that came with the wedge kit, standard flat head & philips heads instead of hex but you can order longer shimano ones from other sites.
Just got my P1’s and I could re-use the Shimano spacer. It is so much bigger that there are no problems clicking in and out; sticks out 5mm. Must say that mounting the cleats takes more time than installing the pedals… lol. Long 3-day weekend ahead to test them with my Garmin 510. Will be riding a lot :D
First impression on the roller this evening is good. Happy with the purchase and a nice present for myself :)
What sticks out? You mean the pedal is wider platform? Or cleat? I hope is not much different from my shimano spdsl…
The Shimano spacer (2mm) is 5mm longer than the cleat. And I mean the spacer that I use for my left leg to compensate for a shorter leg; it is between the cleat and my shoe. I added a photo to show what I mean. The other solution is to get the Dremel out and get rid of the part that sticks out.
Oh I thought it was a spacer between the pedal thread and the crank arm thread making it wider. Would that be the q factor? Still learning the lingo :-)
Nope, Q-factor is the distance between the two crank mounting points for the pedals (link to en.wikipedia.org). These pedals have no effect on the Q-Factor.
im not engaging my cleats as easily as i did on the shimano SPDs.
I think im just getting used to it.
There is a lot of play in these cleats. – i don’t care for the 15 degree cleats. I have 0 degree cleats coming in next week to play with.
@Vincent “(android or windows with an ant+ stick would be nice)”
at http://www.thisisant.com you find a lot of phones/tablets ANT+ ready with subsequent referral to apps; so no need for a stick.
Random FYI: Clever Training has now listed for sale the replacement cleats as well.
PowerTap P1 Replacement Cleats (0* or 6* float options): link to clevertraining.com
Cheers!
Thx for the review, Ray.
Just ordered my at Clever Trainning plus 2 extra replacement cleats.
Keep the good work.
Cheers from Brazil.
Awesome – I appreciate the support!
Just an off topic.
Do you use balance data field in ride? If so, for reviews purpose or real trainning?
Thx again.
I don’t tend to use them a ton, since it’s not like you’re actually going to shift balance mid-ride to account for it (many have noted that attempts to change balance actually results in less overall power output).
For over a year Training Peaks had an error in its auto-import from Garmin Connect and reversed the power balance numbers.
I detected this bug when I had a pedal problem and my balance was 100/0 on GC but 0/100 on TP. I notified TP last week and they acknowledged the problem and quickly corrected it, but noted that their new import code will only apply to future rides. Balance data in the past (up to last week) is reversed and always will be.
Happy Runner : Just think of all those uber-keen people that have spent months (years?) doing one legged squats on the wrong leg.
As an FYI, I’ve added a new table into the review showing compatibility. For lines with TBD, feel free to test and post back the results here. Please ensure you’re on the latest firmware if/when testing.
You’ll find the table at the end of the ‘Head Unit Compatibility’ section, here: link to dcrainmaker.com
Thanks!
Do you have any knowledge of the P1 pedals compatibility with the Magellan/Mio Cyclo 505?
Thanks
Hello.
Can you tell me, with P1 and the ambit 2, if i want to know the real power with a 170mm crank lenght, it’s the power on the screen 1,4% highter or 1.4 % lower?
Thanks very mutch
Assuming it thinks your cranks are 172.5, it will read 1.4% higher than you’re really producing. Since the unit thinks your pedals are moving faster than they actually are, it will overcompute the power.
When using the P1s or any power meter is it better to not have the Zeros included for average? Love the P1s!!!
I generally prefer to include zeros in the average.
Looks like Clever Training doesn’t ship these to Canada :-(.
I’ve tried the local bike shops, but none of their suppliers can give a date when they might get these in.
Anyone from Canada been able to order these, and if so, from where?
Thanks.
Thanks for the review, just ordered via CT and shipping to the UK I hope!
Is there anything official from Garmin or PowerTap on the Edge 1000 crank length issue, or will I just need to manually edit the settings file as referred to earlier?
Thanks for the support Greg!
PowerTap has stated they’ll be providing a tool to set the crank length, while Garmin hasn’t stated anything officially yet. It’s on my list today to hit up them for an official answer on if they’ll be updating the handful of Garmin units that don’t support it.
It’ll impact more than just the P1’s though, for example, bePRO needs it too.
Anyone experiencing issues with reading dropouts ? I have Edge 810 and sometimes power data goes blank (as does cadence) for a few seconds. This morning almost no data for a period of 10-15minutes with spikes of data showing up only for a second or two. Both on Edge 810 and 520 head units. Maybe it has to do with two units picking up P1 pedal data at the same time ? Batteries are good.
Was this inside or outside? If inside, interference from WiFi can certainly be an issue for ANT+ in general (occasionally), outside usually less so. If you had a heart rate strap – did it also drop-out? Or any chance there was a GoPro running on the bars?
Any chance that perhaps the battery is bad? Even with a brand new battery I’ve seen occasion issues where the battery was simply more or less DOA to begin with.
There’s no issues with multiple ANT+ head units collecting data at once (the power meter doesn’t even know they are there).
There are some obscure issues with Vectors and the use of multiple Edge head units so it is possible that the same could apply to the P1’s.
See link to forums.garmin.com post #322
“Occasionally a head unit may start requesting configuration information from the Vector system at such a rate that the Vector system can’t keep up with the requests, and as a result it starves out the power data. In that case you would have to restart the head unit to resolve the situation. Having multiple head units paired to Vector (eg. an Edge and a Forerunner) simultaneously may exacerbate this situation, especially if they are making conflicting requests. The newer Vector firmware mitigates these situations as best as possible, so it’s a good idea to update the Vector firmware if you suspect this is a problem.”
I should have added that if the two Edge units have the crank length set to different values this can definitely lead to conflicts and incorrectly displayed power data when using Vectors.
Yeah, no doubt there. Though, I wouldn’t expect it to zero out power. If you have two values, it just means someone is showing the wrong value (or both, if one of them does a set).
Interesting on Vector edge case though…
well, it is the two edge units that somehow screw things up. When I turn off edge 810, the other one immediately starts showing proper power and cadence. I run latest firmware on all hardware. So it seems that I must pick one edge for my workouts. Thank you all for suggestions and swift replies.
Same experience here, using P1 with Edge 510 with crank length set at 175 and 920XT where crank length cannot be set and is by default 172.5. As soon as I turn on both simultaneously, I get mostly zero power and cadence readings with occasional ridiculously high spikes. Turn off the 920XT and the 510 gives proper readings.
Very odd, never seen that before in all the power meter testing I’ve done (I often record a single PM with 2-3 devices).
I should have added: no problems when recording to TrainerRoad app via Garmin USB Ant stick and Edge 510 simultaneously, but problem starts as soon as I try to add the 920XT to the mix. I was hoping to record to 920XT and 510 and compare to see how much the values would be out on the 920XT with the default 172.5 (incorrect for my bike) crank length, but found this to be impossible due to the loss of data when trying to use the Garmin units simultaneously.
From our testing this issue is because the two Garmins are bombarding the pedal with Crank length set requests. The Garmin device is very aggressive at setting crank length. The 920 will not allow the user to set the crank length, but the 510 will. the 510 sets it at 175mm, but since the 920 is also paired, it sees that the crank length is no longer set at 172.5 (default), so it sets the crank length right back to 172.5. Then the 510 sees the change and sets the length back to 175. Its a loop of frustration from the pedal’s perspective. The pedal gets into a state where it will not display proper power because the base power calc values are constantly changing.
The only way around this is to have both devices using the same crank arm length. The only way to currently get the 920 to use a crank arm length other than 172.5 is to send your settings.fit file to Garmin and have the default changed (same with the 1000).
We tried changing the default in our settings.fit with a hex editor but the changed value kept getting set back to 172.5. We suspect there is some sort of check sum associated with default crank length among other stuff. The Garmin engineers have the special tools to do this.
Bottom line is if you want to use your 920 or 1000 with the PowerTap P1 Pedals and your crank length is anything other than 172.5 you have to send Garmin your Setting.fit file. Setting crank length with any other device and then hoping to use one of these two devices will only set the crank length back to the default value in the Setting.fit (172.5 if it has not been modified)…
Or talk Garmin into a firmware update that allows these devices to set crank arm length on pedal-based power meters other than Vector pedals.
Is it worth going to the trouble of asking Garmin to edit the settings.fit file to change crank length by 2½mm (to 170 mm or to 175 mm)?
In these cases (170 mm or 175 mm instead of 172.5 mm), the “error” in calculating power is less than 1.5% (2.5/172.5) and that is less tan the “accuracy” of the pedals measurement of power.
It only takes a minute to upload the file, and then it seems to take less than a day to get the file back. I would.
Interesting. That’d explain why I’d never seen it before, since I’d always have the same crank length set (or, not applicable). Nice findings, thanks for sharing!
Hi Ray
I have been using PowerTap’s P1 Pedals paired to my Garmin 1000 for the past 6 weeks now. My crank length is 172.5mm which should be the default. I have been experiencing a power spike once a week and only once per ride.
Could this be a common power spike or could it be related to the issue with not being able to set the crank length on the Garmin 1000?
No relation to crank length. Not clear what causes it, but I’ll discuss it again with the PowerTap folks at Interbike this week.
They’ve been working a bit with ANT+ to understand what’s going on and if it’s a timing issue – it does restricted to Garmin units, fwiw…
Didn’t read all the replies–so I apologize if I’m redundant.
I have the Garmin 1000 and 920XT–neither will allow you to set the crank length–and it indeed comes with the default setting of 172.5. Problem for me is that some of my bikes are 175 or 177.5. Turns out the 910XT will allow you to do the crankarm setting (which I have–was about to sell it).
I have been communicating frequently with the PT support people–who are very helpful. They are looking to see if they can’t add an option in their mobile app to do the adjustment.
I am not seeing the same comparative power output readings between the P1 pedals and my hub or my stages power devices (the power readings from the P1 are significantly lower at higher sustained watt levels). I have done several indoor rides and am working with PT to see what is afoot (I have sent several indoor workout files for analysis). They really want this to work, and I have been pleased with their engagement.
Any news RE crank length settings? I’m lucky on my TT bike having a default value however on my 29er I have on Shimano LX 170mm.
I’m really looking forward for the iPhone app as the current one seems not working properly and crank length is not there.
Note that if the crank length thing is blocking you, currently a moderator on the Garmin Forums is helping out anyone that asks with the updated .FIT file for your crank length. You post your settings .FIT file and a few hours or so later he sends you the correct crank length that you requested. Many folks here have done so.
A good fix until Garmin fixes the outlier units to correctly support it.
Any news about european seller? CT would be my choice but I’m warried about customs and duties that sometimes are applied to goods shipped from US to Italy.
Anyone have experience on these issues?
CT say it’s ok to ship to the UK, so I ordered from them.
Sadly their 5-7 business day shipping date as I ordered has just moved to “unknown” :(
I just had a chat with them a few minutes ago, they’re working to nail down the exact date (one that can be depended on) from PowerTap today – hence why they just changed it until they can be 100% certain for future orders. Obviously it’s a high demand product, but hopefully they can work it out quickly. Thanks for the support!
cheers, I was probably on chat to them at the same time! Hopefully the order I placed earlier this week where they said 5-7 days won’t be delayed that much!
I ordered my P1 pedals on 6 August from CT and received an email today stating their are delays in shipping due to strong demand. I’m a supply management specialist by trade, so I was not surprised by the delay. It you order these pedals, be aware there may be shipping delays. I’m sure I will have my pedals soon.
Ray – Im getting a message that “right power pedal missing”
is this normal?
running the garmin 810. Easy set up
thanks,
ah i see it’s a known bug. thanks.
Yeah. I’m sorta optimistic that when Garmin releases the Edge 810 Strava update (firmware update), it’s something that’ll just be magically fixed. I have zero rumor-basis for that, other than just some little hunch inside my head.
The same message with Edge 800.
Getting a fix for the Edge 800 might be a bit harder…
On the bright side, I found no actual impact on power data when the message occurs, seems sorta just the Edge unit tripping on itself.
The right sensor missing I’ve seen on 920XT, Garmin 1000 and 910XT. Did not seem to affect the power data (that I know of). The pedals on first start up go to ‘sleep’ in 10 seconds–so I think it’s sometimes the time from when you spin the pedals and activate your head unit and if the right pedal has gone to sleep, then maybe it’s not being ‘seen’?
I see it semi-frequently on my Edge 500 but I’m not holding my breath for Garmin to update it.
Shame – that little computer is such a great, reliable piece of tech.
I’m more worried about a drift I see in power readings, especially at higher watt outputs. This is a comparison between my PowerTap hub and my stages. The gaps are best seen indoors, riding on my rollers (with a flywheel and resistance fan wide open/Kreitler rollers) where the fluctuations seen riding outdoors because of terrain/wind/start and stop/etc. make it a bit harder to see identifiable potential problem areas. You can sustain steady watt output at defined levels (like 107% FTP) and watch a slow but noticeable drop in watts on the P1 pedals. I’ve had the hub looked at including zero offset, and Stages is zeroed everytime. The Stages and Hub are very close.
This is a computer based workout with 2 min at 107% FTP, 4 min at 100% FTP, and then 6 min at 93% FTP with 3 min recovery in between. The recovery sections are very close. The efforts over 300W are pretty far apart. First pic is the data without smoothing, the second is with 15 sec averaging so the lines can be better seen. The Hub is the blue line, and P1 the red line:
Here it is with smoothing:
This is one where I did 7×40 at 127% FTP/60 sec recovery. The first set of high wattage has a sizable gap; the second set they are much closer. Again the lower watt segments are very close throughout. Hub(blue) vs P1 (red). I have shared with PowerTap and what they are trying to figure out is if there is an opportunity to tweak the P1 pedal or if it’s an issue with my head units communicating with the pedal, a combination of the two or something else. What I do know is that the differences are between two other power meters vs the pedal–so less likely it’s a problem with 2 devices and not the P1. I really like the pedal, and I think the answer will be found. Just putting this out there to see if others have seen similar things. I have done several workouts with PerfPro and set one ‘rider’ to see my hub and the another ‘rider’ to see the pedals–and the data is the same. My next step is to only use the 910XT which I can set the crankarm with and unassociate with my 920XT and Garmin 1000 and see if I get something different. Again, PowerTap personnel have been very helpful and supportive:
Just installed the PowerTap P1 pedals and did my first ride w Garmin 810 updated to the latest firmware and I was gettin the “right sensor missing” message, so it doesn’t seem to be fixed. But it doesn’t seem to affect the power reading — I suspect it’s only to do with the right sensor not being “awaken” and therefore not yet seen by the left pedal, which transfers data to the garmin, since as I understand the right pedal communicated with the left pedal and the left pedal then with the head unit.
Another interesting thing I noticed though was the Balance — I had 54%-46% avg balance. When I was pedalling smooth at ~2w/kg it was even more around 57%-43% difference. At higher 3-6w/kg it got down to 52%-48%. Only when I was standing up on the pedals at 8+w/kg did it even out to 50%-50%, and sometimes went over to 48%-52%. But the left was always higher on average. I wonder if that’s really to do with my legs, the left one putting in more power, or if it’s anything to do with the way the P1 works — if I don’t pedal at all and start a new lap on Garmin it says 100%-0% until I start pedalling, it seems to favor the left reading, at least that’s how it felt like on the first ride.
Correct on the 810 – we haven’t seen an update from Garmin there yet. It’s not limited to the P1’s though, but a variety of other left/right power meters that can trigger it (Infocrank, bePro, etc…).
I think the pedals are accurately reporting the L/R differences. At lower watts/stress my right (opposite to your experience–and I’m right handed) is greater than the left (like 48 to 52); however, when I’m riding at or above threshold, I’m nearly 50/50 (with at times the left LESS than the right).
I’ve never seen it flip the other way (meaning, my right side is either 50% or greater). I think a better way to assess your ‘sidedness’ is to look at power balance when you are working hard–which can vary for watts/kg from person to person. When you are at FTP or higher–it’s hard to focus on your pedaling because you are focused on “breathing” and surviving the interval. :)
I’ve had the pedals for weeks, so my experience is over multiple rides/multiple days. Just wanted to note that I don’t think the pedals ‘favor’ the left.
Have compared P1 with Pioneer and Vector with Pioneer. Power values from my right P1 matched my right Pioneer, but left P1 was repeatedly higher than left Pioneer; at least overall they were consistent. On the other hand, my left Vector matches my left Pioneer, but my right Vector was repeatedly higher than the my right Pioneer; overall, the Vector-Pioneer comparison shows a lot more variation than the P1-Pioneer. (Will post my P1-Pioneer comparison data details later on my blog page.)
When you think about it, i’d say it’s natural that individual pedal pairs of independent left-right power meters might show some left or right bias, the same way that a spider- or hub-based power meter might show some high/low bias.
Just got new P1 pedals, used them on two rides. On the second ride I paid attention to L/R balance. Similar to your experience, my left leg appeared much stronger than the right, 58/42. The imbalance seemed related to how much I was spinning versus “pushing”. At the same power, the faster I spun, the more the left overshadowed the right. By shifting up and pushing harder, the right leg showed up stronger. Not sure yet whether I believe the meter. This might be a quirk of the pedals.
Yup, that’s pretty normal when it comes to left/right balance (normal, meaning that you see shifts in different stroke patterns).
For example, I’ll see slight shifts in L/R balance if I increase/decrease my cadence – especially higher cadences.
I too have noticed this. Lower cadence/higher power the balance evens itself out. On rollers the balance seems better all round than on the road.
Can pedal spacers, also known as knee savers, be used with pedal based power meters? Not needed with my current bike but new ones I’m looking at have a narrower Q.
Firmware 5.0 just released for the Edge 1000:
link to forums.garmin.com!
Will it allow setting the crank length on the PowerTaps P1 pedals?
Just checked, it does not (also tried removing the sensor and re-adding, no change). To be fair, typically these sorts of updates would be in the testing pipeline a few weeks or so (certain product groups it’s longer than others). So my guess is even if they had made a decision late last week to add it, we probably wouldn’t see it until the next update.
I sent in a bit of an argument for it to Garmin earlier in the week, and they confirmed they received it, but noted that many of the folks are out on vacation this week that’d be overseeing those decisions.
Nice review.
Question: Other than equipment compatibility (C1) and portability, is there any reason to get the P1 over the C1? Thanks, chris
Aside from portability/compatibility as you noted, the other thing the P1 gives you is left/right power. The value of which is debateable. Otherwise, I’m seeing very solid results with the C1 to date.
Have Powertap indicated to you whether compatibility with more cranksets (Ultrega 6800, say) will be coming to C1, or will I have to factor in the cost of a new crankset? If so then the price difference between C1 & P1 vanishes.
Thanks for the reply but the Powertap website shows the C1 provides Left/Right. Does it not or is it “different”? thanks, chris
It’s different. It’s an estimation, and is actually closer to really estimating pulling up and pushing down than true left/right.
John- while we have interest in making the C1 compatible with as many cranks as we can the 4 bolt asymmetric cranks would require an entirely new power meter from the ground up. I understand your situation completely as I had DA 9000 on one of my bikes that got replaced. If you do decide to purchase a new crank to go with the C1 remember that your existing crank does have value. At least it will help offset the cost of the new crank.
Justin – do you have any comment on my issue with the P1s? i’ve contacted customer support and have not received a reply back
Well this is strange 10 minutes into my ride today the power tap p1 data stops showing data. Then some small power numbers show up here and there.
Not happy
I did a recalibrate and same issue.
It was working fine two days ago.
Any chance there is too much ant+ data talking?
Heart rate
Cadence
Power left right
Speed
Di2 fly
?
Going to try my trainer tonight but still $1100 and not working properly?
Keep everyone updated
Garmin link
link to connect.garmin.com
Any chance you have two different head units connected to it?
Someone reported near identical details back a few days ago, and in their case they had two different head units – with conflicting crank lengths set – which caused virtually the same thing you’re seeing.
I have the p1s paired with the 810 and Fenix 3
I didn’t have the Fenix 3 running though
Was the F3 with you at the time by chance?
I ask because I know sometimes the F3 will see the sensors and attempt to make connections (even in other sport modes). Just curious.
Yes! That’s very strange.
I didn’t know it would try to connect even though it’s not running. Though both were connected to the iPhone. So there was some cross communication.
I’ll test it tonight Ray.
That wasn’t clear of me.
Yes I was wearing the f3 watch – non activity running while using the 810.
Ray -i wasnt able to replicate the issue on my road bike.
i was able to run the garmin fenix 3 watch and 810 concurrently with no power drops. both recording at the same time. i didn’t test one not running though. During ironman i will be using the watch and bike computer at the same time.
im wondering now if it’s a di2 ant+ issue on my time bike.
1st world problems.
Good to hear.
I wouldn’t think it was a Di2 ANT+ issue, unless the Garmin unit is stumbling on multiple streams. Fwiw though, I did approximately one of the weeks of testing with them on my TT bike, which does have Di2 over ANT+ (didn’t see any issues there). As noted, most of my testing with the PowerTap P1’s was with Epix and the 810 though.
Does anyone else have problems waking up the P1 pedals?
Got my P1s couple of weeks ago and otherwise they work like charm, but slave pedal just won’t wake up by spinning the cranks/pedals. So, before every ride I have to remove/reinsert battery of the slave pedal to wake it up.
Sam- please contact Jamie Hartmann in our customer service department and explain your issue to him. He will get you squared away. 800-783-7257
Thanks Justin and Fred for suggestions! I contacted the seller and they will help.
Contact support–that’s a defect in the G sensor on the right pedal they had with a few of the pedals. They will replace it.
I’m using an iPhone and the PowerTap Mobile App and seem to be only getting data from 1 pedal.
Anyone successfully using this combo?
Thanks
Update:
No help from PowerTap today. Their 1at rep couldn’t help me and the promised return call didn’t happen today. I’m sure they are busy but I’ve wasted a lot of time on this and am a bit frustrated. I can’t find any help on their website.
Went for a ride and tried Abvio’s Cyclemeter. It worked! Paired and showed my power data from both pedals.
PowerTap P1 Pedal Cleat Covers…
FYI… If you’re looking for cleat covers to protect the P1 cleats, Lauren Hannes, Powertap’s customer service manger, emailed today me to say the Exustar E-CK5R model has been tested and found to be compatible with their pedals. Unfortunately, Exustar’s Dannie Nall just informed me that their US disti’s don’t have them in stock. He’s trying to get some into the channel now.
Do the Exustar E-CK3R Cleat Covers fit too?
They look identical to the Exustar E-CK5Rs and are more widely available…
When should I consider a c1 over the p1? Is the c1 more accurate with more features than pedals?
I remember reading Ray comment that c1 have pull up force? I thought p1 will do the same similar to vector Garmin?
Are c1 as good as the quarq? I plan in future to have road and tri bike in future. I have only road at the moment but not sure get aero wheels or tri bike, probably save mute money and get wheels and power meter?
Thank you
Accuracy-wise I’ll assume both will be the same (for total power). I don’t have a final C1 unit yet (still a prototype), so hard to say still.
C1’s can do estimated left/right, which is really closer to measuring push/pull force than left/right. But it’s not showing that in any of the same ways as Vector does. For now it’s just left/right.
I put the C1/Quarq/Power2Max all on the same podium in terms of goodness.
FYI, the three links to the PowerTap P1 via CleaverTraining.com at the end of your review result in “We looked everywhere but could not find the page you are looking for. Luckily we have a lot other pages and products that are really amazing, you should check them out.”
Dunno if that’ll result in you’re missing out on you well deserved commission.
Very odd. I just tried all of them without issue. Do either of these links work? link to clevertraining.com or link to clevertraining.com
Thanks for an excellent review, as always :-) I have enjoyed my new P1 pedals a few weeks and is very satisfied. I have one problem though, that I wonder if you or anyone have an answer to. I use Joule GPS+ as head unit. The power balance shows perfectly in the computer display while pushing the pedals, but the data is not transferred to the exercise file, so this data does not show up in PowerAgent and Trainingpeaks. I use my iPhone to upload the files to my Powertap cloud account. Any information is helpful. Thanks
hey ray,
disappointing to see this power surge issue.
hope you keep us updated.
PowerTap engineering is in contact with the couple people who have seen it, to try and figure out where the issue is precisely (i.e. head unit connection, power meter itself, etc…). They’re also monitoring posts here, so I suspect an answer will come quickly.
good to know.
yourself and this site is really an invaluable resource. personally i will be committing to with p2m or p1 (perhaps stages if the go dual-sided) over the next few months, and the reliability of the p1 over the tried-and-tested p2m will be crucial in the decision – along with the usual.
Just wondering if anyone has had their pedals shipped from Clever Training as I believe they were due a shipment this week and another at the end of this week.
I spoke to them yesterday but they couldn’t tell me if my order would be fulfilled by the next delivery or not :(
I’m checking my email every few minutes hoping to see the “shipped” notification.
Hey, I have another question. Mainly because it’s a “new product” that just came out and seeing the issues some are having. I’m wondering if it’s safe to just get these and assume the issues will be resolved similar to that of Garmin vector? (Hopefully not over many years…) This can be fixed via firmware updates right? I know powertap has many good reviews but this will be my first huge investment! Other than looking at quarq,p2m, vectors, the p1 send like the one I’m going to purchase just need some confidence boost please! Thanks guys
I think there’s different categories of items to look at that folks have seen (keeping in mind, we’re talking single-digit percentages or less right now of units shipped).
A) Crank length setting problems: This is wholly a Garmin issue, and isn’t limited to being a problem for PowerTap, it’s also a problem for others. This in turn has caused some oddities a few folks have reported where two units were ‘fighting’ over crank lengths – causing droppages.
B) Right sensor not found: I’m semi-declaring this a Garmin issue as well. I actually just saw it tonight when using a newer Edge 520/1000 with the Verve Infocrank in the exact same ‘wake-up’ condition as seen on the P1. I don’t see this on all Garmin units, so not sure why it’s different. Either way, it’s a harmless error as far as I can see.
C) Random and rare high spikes (i.e. 50K plus): I think this is the only outstanding issue where there isn’t a known solution, or, even a known cause. But rather something PT is working with those that are seeing to track down. By my rough count this is total 3-4 people.
D) Pedal simply not waking up: PT seems to know the issue there for anyone that sees that, and it’s just replacement. Unsure if that was an early manuf issue that’s since been resolved.
Anyway, just my two cents.
To start–I like the pedals and am hopeful the glitches will be addressed with firmware updates.
A. True as it may be that it’s a Garmin head unit issue with the crank arm setting, the reality is that a bunch of us have that to collect our power data. So for now–eyes wide open for those who have such ahead unit.
B. I’ve seen list with all my Garmin units (910, 920 and 1000). Agree with Ray–it’s a warning without apparent real issue.
C. The high spike issue is a problem. I have had three sets of pedals, all three exhibited the behavior. I’ve posted some of my locations previously. It really screws up the data while riding–not that you can’t with some apps post-ride scrub the false data. With that said, if you are in a race and had a high spike and use your head unit to throttle your efforts–it gets messy. Also, currently within Garmin Connect you can’t scrub the bad data (at least not that I know of). With my current pair of pedals, it’s happened at least once a week. If one could set their head unit to ignore spikes like that, then that would be another way to address during the ride. That would take Garmin/others to help out.
D. I think it was an early issue with the G sensors on the right pedal that they have worked out. They are very good about taking care of it. I wouldn’t worry about this.
E. OK–I added this one. I have seen some funky stuff with power accuracy that I’ve posted before. It was not isolated to one set of pedals. I have 4 power meters (one hub, two stages and now the P1) and the P1 reads consistently lower (as I’ve noted) with the others very close to each other. I am providing my ride files to PT and they are engaged with getting an answer. I got the P1 because I could port it between my two tandems (where I have no power meter) and my portable bike, and any time I travel and use a third party bike.
regarding “C. High spikes”: there are more than 3 or 4 people concerned, but aren’t all vocal here. I also had a 60kW spike once, with a garmin 500 on a long ride where I hit the stop button before lunch, and started again manually after. The spike was on the restart, and it only happened once, so I didn’t feel necessary to report it before.
i am very much jumping the gun, but your E) lower reading / drift over time would be fairly crappy if you didn’t have other PMs on your bike to compare to.
I’d definitely report any high spikes you see to PowerTap, even if you don’t see it again simply so they can try and get more data points to develop a bit of a pattern. Just the scenario (i.e. head unit type, riding condition, environment) in which it was seen is probably immensely helpful to them.
Yep, a spike here as well; 54.401watts Froome eat your hart out :) Have send my .fit file to PT with all details (serial, firmware version etc). Because I work with Golden Cheetah I can fix the power spike but of course that should not be the case. The online Garmin software is very limited in my view and I even don’t need a glass of Rosé to say that ;) You can’t fix spikes or what ever obvious error and GC is far better in analysis and comes with a model for your FTP and the like.
In the meantime: great amount of data and lots to ponder about. On my Trek with 172.5mm cranks I get a bigger difference between right and left than on my old Cannondale with 170mm cranks. To early to call, but I will be testing this, have now to instrument to examine what is best.
I had 2 rides with one spike of 2 seconds each ride. I passed the files recorded with the issues to Powertap customers service. I bought a Joule GPS+ head unit and all my rides with this new head unit have been done/recorded perfectly normal. It seems that the spikes issues is a problem of communication between some Garmins head units and the P1 pedals.
The garmin unit is simply picking up what is sent to it. The joule head unit might have a setting defaulted to exclude the spikes so you don’t see it. If you have your garmin set to one sec recording you will eventually see it is my bet. Hopefully the issue can be pinpointed. Garmin might get around to allowing for an option to exclude false data, but I guess I don’t see it as a “garmin” issue.
While generally true, there are definitely cases where one head unit will pickup a value (false or otherwise) and another won’t. I’ve seen it many times in testing.
That said, given there’s more than just one person seeing this, I’d say the issue lies closer to PowerTap than Gamrin, unless there’s some sort of interpretation issue going on (sorta like the Right Power sensor drop warning message*).
*Speaking of which, I can now confirm seeing that not just on P1’s with the most recent Edge 810/520/1000 firmware, but also on bePRO and Verve Infocrank. More interestingly though, in the case of the Edge 520 – it’ll actually give up on the right sensor entirely if you press to start the ride (saw this on both Verve in recent days).
I have experienced power spikes in the data recordings of a P1 (paired with an Edge 510 which showed clean data) on a NPE WASP, but that combination showed other issues as well: data fields that you’d not expect from a power meter like heart rate and calories (is this some development firmware that uses unrelated data fields for debugging purposes???), some power spikes that seemed like accumulated power data followed or preceded by zeros, WASP iOS app crashing after a while.
Haven’t contacted either support about this yet. Currently using the P1 with a Garmin head unit and the data seems clean when watching in real time or graphing in Excel.
Yeah you have to sometimes be careful on the WASP data as it’s prone to showing more randomness because it’s recording at a higher rate (but downsampling currently for Excel). I’ve been seeing a ton of crashing on the iOS app of late and have let the WASP guys know (but have to hit them up again). I’d encourage you to poke them as well, just to add a bit of fuel there to the fire.
(For the last month or so, I’ve mostly just been using Garmin head units for comparison due to the crashes.)
Thanks, good to know it was just a coincidence that I started to notice the WASP app crashing frequently at about the same time when I started using the P1. :-)
Wondering whether you’d have any thoughts about the frequent power spikes as well as weird data fields like heartrate, gear and calories from the P1?
Mostly did not have spikes with neither Edge500 nor Edge520 so far. I also don’t remember the connected head unit displaying any of these irregularities. I know the WASP sometimes swaps data columns but not sure about these effects.
link to dropbox.com
link to dropbox.com
I suspect more than 3-4 people are having the power spike problem as I also experienced the problem today on my sixth ride with the pedals.
Hi, Isolated the problem with missing power balance data from P1 and Joule GPS+. The iPhone app does not transfer the power balance data when uploading over the air. The data is in the head unit, but just not come over. To be able to get the power balance data, you need to use the cable and download to Poweragent or other compatible services using cable. Kind of bad since, this over the air uploading of data one of the best features of the new Joule GPS+. I am not sure how to address this issue to Powertap. Sounds like we need an update of the iPhone app?
Odd, I know the app has an updated planned for it shortly (nice detective skills). I’ll ask them on Monday/Tuesday when I see them if that’s part of it.
Thanks Ray :-) I registered this issue also in an email to PT a couple of weeks ago, but they are kind of silent… Really appreciate your efforts!
Hi,
you spoke already a few times about a “PowerTap-App”. Sorry – I think I’m to stupid, blind or what ever to find this app for android.
Please – what’s the name of this app because I hope in future they’ll do upgrades of the pedals with this app.
Thanks.
It’s called PowerTap Mobile. At some point in the quoted “mid August” range it was planned to allow updates of pedals. I’ll find out on Monday where that timeline stands.
Thanks Ray,
but still “to stupid”.
Sure that this app is avaiable for android?? Hopefully I don’t have to buy “an apple” because I’ve the pedals now.
When you speak with them can you ask for an app in android??
Thanks very much in advance
bikearnie
The app isn’t available for either right now to update your pedals, so you’re not alone. The app you see is their older app that downloads primarily from the PowerTap Joule GPS+. The iOS version doesn’t connect to pedals yet either.
But yes, will confirm on Monday.
I have android, pt website said iphone only? What…
Android is planned when I talked to them last about the mid-Aug date. I’ll find out where that stands at the same time.
Powertap P1 Power Drop Outs – Various Tests
So i set my bike on the trainer connected it to my garmin 810 and the fenix 3 AND using the bluetooth connected it to TrainerRoad on the ipad.
Still having the drop outs. The power and the pedal %/% balance #s would disappear intermittently from my Fenix 3 & Edge 810 BUT on the TrainerRoad Power it stayed on through out.
link to connect.garmin.com You wil see the power drop the 1st 30 minutes.
Now out of frustration prepping to test my other bike – i changed garmin profiles on the 810 while still soft pedaling and maybe by shear coincidence the drop outs stopped! my crank length on my time bike is 165 and the road is 170mm .
I then created another bike profile on the garmin (using 165 crank length) and the power and balance #s were showing normally.
Then i went back into the original garmin bike profile (time machine) and the power stayed on still.
Now i think it’s a coincidence because my fenix 3 had the same power drops at the same time as garmin 810. i never changed anything there. There are no bike profiles.
So there seems to be some weird ANT+ transmission issue with the pedals. Bluetooth works well.
Thoughts?
I had pretty much the exact problem with my 510. First ride was perfect, then I set the cranklength. My 920xt had zero issue as long as my 510 was turned off. Turn it on and bam power meter drops out completely. I ended up factory resetting my 510 and not setting the cranklength and haven’t had an issue since.
This sounds like the issue talked about further up in the chain. Basically, the devices are arguing over what the crankarm length should be and overloading the ANT+ channels, causing drops (Bluetooth is obviously over a completely separate channel, so it’s connection is unaffected). I’d expect this to go away when Garmin fixes the issue or Powertap releases their update.
Joel – i believe you nailed it.
My fenix was set for 170 cranks when i was on my road bike – i was on 165 on the time bike.
changing it the 810 bike profile to my road bike that was on 170 resolved the power drop issue.
Gabe,
I know your comment is a year old but worth a try – does the bluetooth P1 to TrainerRoad on iPad work well? I know with some bluetooth connections the power reading is halved, but is that not that case here?
Just asking as I’m hopefully going to be using that set-up. (And will use ANT to connect to Zwift on my laptop)
Thanks,
Rebecca
i know you have a chart above for compatibility but as far as crank length for garmin 500 can anyone confirm this wont have issues setting up?
also does the Garmin Cycling Dynamics really benefit in cycling training/technique? is this when they measure where your foot is applying pressure/force on a particular point of the axle? i think i saw a road.cc or roadbikereview on youtube and he mention eventually P1 will have this feature…not sure, though i wonder if those feature only come with P2 or even P3?? omg im overthinking this, is there a trade-in program if they really have newer versions later in future?
does pedal based power measure down force as well as upward pull?
thankss :D
No issues there, I checked as well.
As noted in the Rose Rant, I see no benefits for Cycling Dynamics at this time. And even if/when PT does something there, it’ll be via their own platform/system since Garmin has locked down their variant of it. I believe Justin up above noted some plans there.
I topped 58000 on my first ride while paired to my 810. I got the right power sensing missing error and my watts were jumping all over the place while pedaling at a constant rate on a flat road. It would jump up and down anywhere from 20 to 100+ watts.
User serviceablilty of the pedals is a cause for concern. I suspect that since everything is built into thr pedal body, should the bearings need to be changed, they have to be sent back to PT USA. I can imagine a downtime of at least 3-4 weeks and the cost to be substantial. That would be my deal breaker.
i actually emailed pt about this, $100 to service bearings and recalibrate,etc. not sure how often you’d have to do this though. :( is that a deal breaker?
apparently this service will be able to be done outside of the US eventually (6-12 months), would be interested in confirmation from PT re: this
I’ll check with them on it. Traditionally PowerTap/CycleOps has regional service centers, so it falls within logic this would be supported in the same locales.
Im sure PT will have to sell their p1 calibration machine to regional shops that are concerned about after sales support of their customers. I wouldnt imagine that to make business sense though. How many p1 pedals sales to breakeven the cost of the machine?
I’m not sure why they would, wouldn’t make much sense. Garmin Vector doesn’t, Power2max doesn’t, Quarq doesn’t, Polar doesn’t, nobody does. There’s no reason to have a dynamic calibration machine in the field, most service centers would simply swap out impacted parts.
In my experience with various pedals, only Shimano’s Dura Ace pedals require no replacement of bearings even after 5 years of heavy usage. I got a mavic zxellium slr ti and after 4 months the bearings’ gone kaput. They should really have their service centres decentralised and equiped with the machine to service and recalibrate their P1 pedals, otherwise it’s a deal breaker for me.
According to my brother the engineer, bearings fail in 99% of the cases before their end of life due to wrong installation. If a bearing fails in 4 month it is clearly installed in a wrong way. I expect the P1 to last at least several years and a power meter is a precision instrument and needs service once in a while. So buy a power meter from a party capable of servicing on a regular basis. Think Powertap fits that bill; they probably will concentrate the knowledge in the beginning knowing that a new product on the market needs extra care. Once the knowledge has been build up you can start to fan out the knowledge to several locations and make the maintenance more spread over the world. I fully understand that I bought a new product and will have some teething problems (e.g. powerspikes and perhaps some bug I haven’t encountered yet). But holding the product in my hand and riding with it gives me the feeling that these pedals are made to last. And yes: the proof of the pudding (or can I better say cupcake ;) ) will be in the eating.
Nevermind about the pedals being installed incorrectly.. the point i’m making is, pedals have wear and tear parts. Depending on luck and the environment in which they are used, the lifespan varies. Im just suggesting that P1 servicing should be made available to rest of the world to ensure faster and more eficient servicing. Furthermore, PT is not a pedal maker and the durability and performance of the pedals itself are yet to be proven.
I’m not saying that the pedals could be installed incorrectly, but that in most cases the bearings fail prematurely because of wrong installation during production. And yes, of course a service facility close to home is nice to have and that will be there in the near future; see also Ray comment.
In the meantime: these pedals rock! I learned in a few rides and some testing/training on my Tacx trainer how much influence the riding position has on my power, but also that the difference between indoor and outdoor power is caused by riding with a too high cadence outside. Just by tweaking my position I have a better L/R balance. Think that these pedals could be a must-have for any bike fitter; easy to install on the clients bike, put them on a roller and see&show where the benefits are in power from a better bike fit.
Just wanted to say, that’s a great idea!
I hadn’t thought to test my position on the bike to see how it affects my power output.
If I can find that sweet spot between power and comfort…
… I know what I’m doing when mine arrive :-)
Ray
Another “feature” would you ask Powertap to add to the next firmware is when the P1s go to sleep
On my long descent I’m not soft pedaling and the P1s go to sleep and I had to search for them again during the ride
best,
Hey,
Did you/anyone manage to calibrate these pedals with the Edge 500?
Mine just sits there, until the pedals go to sleep.
I’ve even tried with the PowerTap iPhone app to “Zero” the pedals, and the same thing. The app just sits there until it they go to sleep.
Thanks
Hi Steve,
I use an Edge 500 and “calibrate” will show up automatically everytime I switch the device on and activate the pedals. After some time the dashes will turn into a figure and then you just exit the screen.
Thats it.
The pedals are working with with my Edge500 , 520, PolarV800 and the powertap app.
Did you activate right pedal then left pedal? Whats your firmware?
Hi!
Do you hace another sensor ANT+? Heart monitor? If so, first match the heart monitor and then calibrate the pedals…..
Carlos
Thanks for your responses.
I actually contacted PowerTap support, they went away for a few hours and did some playing I think.
They also found issues calibrating the Edge 500. They recommended to use the app to do it, but also found a bug in that and are looking at a fix.
So if yours works…you’re lucky it seems!
My 920 calibrates instantly.
From Powertap:
Your P1 Pedals are calibrated. They just may or may not need the offset adjustment due to ambient temperature changes. Manual zero process allows for the pedal to fast find the index. Without going through that it can take up to 3 min of continuous pedaling for our pedals to complete the standard indexing process. (Finding one another)
I would like to use one pair of the p1 on two bikes. Because I don’t want to have shoes with different cleats I would like to use only the original powertap cleats. Could anyone tell me which second pair of ordinary pedals I could buy which fits the p1 cleats?
I understood that they are somehow compatible to Look Keo Standard. Does that work without any major problems?
Thanks
I was trying the opposite of this problem getting more cleats for different shoes. The cleats have rc-7 listed on them which implys (and looks very similir): link to en.wellgopedal.com so i’d imagine that these: link to en.wellgopedal.com might be useful.
I haven’t tested any of the above, I shall be buying a set of them cleats shortly to test.
Thanks for the info.
I have to buy a pair of pedals without powermeter for the second bike. Therefore I would like to have a system where I can use my shoes with one kind of cleats for the P1 and the ordinary pedals.
Powertap sells them on their site: link to powertap.com
I forget the exact cleat type though.
Whoops, misread what you were looking for. :)
nice find – that’s them
why buy from powertap for 16$ plus shipping when you can get it for $10 shipped?
Hi. I officially purchased my first power toy, I’ve joined the power thirsty cyclists! But still need to wait…that pre order is way too long for my patience…:'( how to endure this pain? Anyways I really hope they, pt and Garmin put their heads together to fix everyone’s issues before I get mine haha! I’m sure I’ll have questions later!
I’ve confirmed with Garmin folks this evening that a fix will be forthcoming for the FR920XT, Edge 520 and Edge 1000 to add/re-implement crank length. Regarding the situation they noted simply that “They’re going to make it right”. The exact timeframe is a bit unclear, but it sounded more sooner than later.
Thanks Ray for pushing this!
And just in today from the Garmin Edge 1000 forum…
All,
We are aware of this issue and we are working to release software updates to allow crank length input when using the PowerTap P1 pedals. No timeframe is available on when this update will come out but you should expect Garmin to support the following products:
Edge 520
Edge 1000
Edge Explore 1000
Forerunner 920XT
Fenix 3
Garmin Product Support
link to forums.garmin.com
Should this sort the issue I had at the weekend where I rode with both my Edge 510 (with the crank length set at 170mm) and my 920xt on my wrist. Neither worked at all. Cadence was mostly reading zero and watts varied between 0 and 45w. I turned the 920xt off, but the Edge still didn’t work. On restarting the Edge however it was fine. I have a feeling you said there may be interference between the two as they are sending different length signals to the pedals and the pedals get confused? Is this likely to be the case or do I need to investigate further?
Yes, unless you specified the 920XT to have the 170mm crank length via a custom .FIT file, the two will conflict apparently and will cause the drops that you see. Otherwise the 920XT would have been sending a 172.5mm vs the 170 from the 510.
I’d head over to the Garmin Forums and upload your Settings.fit to the thread and get an updated 172.5mm one.
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about crank length. Crank length is not controlled by the pedals. The pedals send exactly the same data to computers and head units regardless of any settings. The computer and head unit then takes that data and manipulate it based on the crank length setting in the computer or head unit. That is why you need to set the correct crank length on each and every head unit. If it was the pedal that did the calculations, you would only have to set it once.
Thanks Ray. There would be no reason why I couldn’t get them to send me two FIT files is there, one with 170mm cranks and one with 165, as I ride different crank lengths on my Tri bike and road bike? It wouldn’t be a big deal to change the FIT file before each ride until the Garmin update comes out.
To NY Attorney. That was my understanding initially, that the pedals just sent out a signal that the head unit reads. However, with two units running at once (a situation I often used whilst riding with my powertap hub) neither unit worked at all. The crank length setting does seem to be an explanation for that. I guess I’ll only know for sure once I have the updated FIT files or Garmin update the 920 software so I can set the crank length maually.
so with the price drops of 20% for P2M S & Stages(€ alloy) and Vectors available for €1000 on big german bike discount sites. … How long can P1 sustain their €1299 price?
Not sure it can hold it’s RRP until 2016…. thoughts?
Nice review Ray,
I thought the new black pods that come with Garmin Vector 2 pedals addressed your finicky vector installation issues? Am I mistaken I believing that a torque wrench is no longer required to correctly install tge vector w pods and pedals?
I’ve been using tye original Vector pedals in cold and wet Norway for 2.5years and have probably 35000km on them plus a few hundred hours indoors. So far they’re still working fine. The install can be a little tedious but only takes minutes and I’ve managed just fine every time I’ve flown with my bike (couple times per year)…it is always nice to have a third hand to squeeze in tye rear brake but not necessary.
My main concern for these power tap pedals is tye battery life. Riding in sustained temps below 5C gives me about 60-80hrs battery life with my vectors. In autumn and winter I can be out for 4 hours with a Max temp of 4or 5C so battery life is important to me. I’d be worried that tye powertap claimed 60hrs would drop to 30or less which would mean changing.batteries every 2-3 weeks or risk loosing power data mid ride…which would drive me nutz.
The Vector 2 pedals are identical to the original Vector pedals and still need to be torqued correctly. This is really required to ensure that the spindle initial installation angles don’t change during subsequent use. Early Vector 1’s did suffer some wear issues with the internal spindle bushing and this was resolved with a running upgrade and Garmin would swap out early adopters pedals for a new set if requested.
The Pods have changed in that they fix around the pedal flats rather than between the crank arm and pedal spindle which makes installation a bit easier.
On the downside quite a lot of users report problems using the latest version 3.5 firmware that Vector 2 uses.
Do you know what the power and cadence range for the P1s?
Received my P1’s last on Thursday and I have now done a few rides on them. Really easy to install although getting started documentation doesn’t mention the need to download the online manual or reference the Powertap Mobile App. Powertap (RC7) cleats worked in my Keo blade pedals and Keo cleats worked in the Powertap pedals so maybe this isn’t such an issue. Of more importance is that I have also experienced a power spike to over 48,000 watts during a 4 hour ride on Saturday. Happened during a steady state effort on a flat road. Hoping Powertap will get on top of this really quickly.
Initial Feedback – I have done 6 rides (2 routes 3 times each) with the P1’s; the first two rides (2 routes) with the included 6 degree pedals and on both rides had single power spike of approx. 30,000. Changed cleats to the zero degree float for the last 4 rides (2 routes 2 times each) and no power spikes. Will continue to monitor.
On another note – when I look at the 2 rides with the power spikes with Strava and Power Agent I do not see the spikes at all in the power analysis section. I only see it with Garmin Connect.
Question – For those seeing the power spikes, which apps/software are you using? Wonder if this is Garmin related….
As JamesJ says if you use Golden Cheetah or WKO you can see and edit out the power spikes. Luckily Strava and CyclingAnalytics null or zero out the spikes or your Training Load would be messed up.
I have only seen the spike in one of my 4 rides but that is no surprise as it likely a strange edge condition perhaps to do with incorrectly reported cadence (just a hunch).
Wink: I agree an Android mobile app is needed. Also the iOS version need a crank length option as for example I use Cycleops own Virtual Training app on the iPad and not being able to set the crank length means I can’t get a correct power reading.
It’s in there–those apps just scrub out the spike so you don’t see it.
I received my P1’s last week and was really sad that I can’t find a phone app that works. I’ve recently been using the Wahoo Fitness app on my Android Phone. It sees the pedals and records just fine, but the data seemed way off. I talked with Powertap tech support and they said it was because I was unable to calibrate and unable to set the crank length. I then borrowed by daughters iPhone and used the Powertap iOS app and was really surprised that it also couldn’t set the crank length or calibrate on that climb it measured 138 watts.
After further consultation with Powertap they said I needed to use a Head Unit rather than a phone app, so I bought a Joule GPS set the crank length and climbed the same hill and it measured 252 watts. Then today I went back to Wahoo Fitness app on my Android phone hoping that the calibration would have allowed it the possibility to record better data, but it reported 143 watts :(
So AFAICT you must use a Head Unit with the P1, does anyone have a different experience?
Same here. No luck with PowerTap Mobile. Ended up buying a Joule after that was the suggested solution from PowerTap support.
Hi Wink,
I’ve logged a bug in our Android app, its only displaying the power for a single pedal. We don’t support duel pedals in either app but we do support a single pedal correctly on iOS (e.g. we double the power from 1 side).
Hi Murray,
What’s the latest update on the Wahoo Fitness app? I am about to pull the trigger on the P1 and want to make sure this fix is already out or coming out soon before I make the purchase. Thanks.
Cheers Ross,
In this vector 2 install clip link to youtu.be they say as long as they reach the minimum torque tye power reading won’t be effected. I guess it’s always hard to be certain without a torque wrench though. But with the new pods install seems pretty simple to me. You don’t need a third hand to stop tye pod riatating and hitting tye crank arm as you tighten them up.
I guess I would still take my torque wrench with me when I travel just to be sure. But then I take a smaller torque wrench for tightening stem and seat post bolts too….doesn’t everyone?? ;)
Yea, I’ve pointed out that same clip to them – and they agree that it’s a bit unlclear in that clip. But have noted very clearly to me in e-mails back that a torque wrench is required for Vector2.
So I got a set of these pedals and I’m completely invested into the Wahoo system. A couple of points:
Don’t buy these if you don’t have a compatible head unit. The Bluetooth on the pedals is pretty spotty (had trouble connecting from a few feet away), and there are no apps for the iPhone right now that will pull L/R power data right now.
The only file format that I know of that handles L/R power distinction at the moment is the .fit format, which is a pain in the ass to work with because it’s not xml based. Wahoo has been saying they’re going to move to .fit for years but I haven’t seen any effort in that regard, and after looking at the .fit SDK I’m not sure I blame them.
The pedals themselves are good quality, and the clip in system is easy and effortless. I was able to draw power data from the pedals into the Wahoo app, but the data is blended before it reaches the phone (all data comes from the left-hand pedal, the right disconnects when you start up a ride).
In short, if you’re not already invested in the power tap system of products I can’t recommend these at the moment.
I checked with Wahoo about it earlier today, they aren’t quite sure why it’s not working, but are going to try and get ahold of a pair of P1’s to figure out the deal.
Also, are you sure that .TCX doesn’t support L/R? As for folks using .FIT – most other companies do so these days, so I don’t buy that too much. I suspect the reason for them is that there’s just little reason for them at this point since .TCX for their purposes works fine and is fully compatible.
I suspect part of the challenge on BLE compatibility right now is how much of it’s changing. For example, a bunch of companies made shifts back this spring to accommodate changes to specs that have been semi-loose on how people implemented them (i.e. Polar different than Suunto different than Wahoo different than PowerTap). That caused breakages and then more updates (albeit for the better). Heck, even Polar released yesterday a power meter update for BLE designed to improve support only to actually have broken it on Stages (the most widely available BLE PM).
Can’t find left right balance in the tcx xsd definition (link to www8.garmin.com) and not in the link to garmin.com xsd. by the looks of it Garmin needs to update tcx for this. Or some other manufacturer should define an xsd for a xml file with L/R balance and other measures. It is probably one of the teething problems of the growing powermeter market. More players enter the market and the consumer is frustrated by the lack of standards.
The .fit file format is just kind of a nightmare to impliment, is the problem. In order to code things easily for it you need to use their SDK and API, and surprise surprise, there’s no Objective-C (native iPhone programming language) examples or code base within that SDK. So Wahoo would have to code one up from the C-based examples or make a fully custom one based upon the info in the file, and since .fit isn’t based in XML that’s a bit of a nightmare.
As for L/R support in other file formats, I know that neither gpx nor its extensions support it (and GPX is kind of flawed to begin with since it won’t let you do training rides with 0 distance), .tcx doesn’t appear to have any garmin-based extensions that will allow it (and Garmin is unlikely to support them in the future since they’ve moved on to .fit to my knowledge), and .wf runs into the same problem as .gpx.
Wahoo’s .csv output DOES have an indicator for Left vs. Right power, but on the file that I created last night the power data only transmitted from the left-hand pedal, and the values fell into the regular power column (the left-power column had all 1’s, the right-power column had all 0’s, so no help there).
It’s interesting that the RFLKT pages setup even has a field for L/R pedal contribution, but unfortunately it doesn’t look like it works with the P1s at the moment. It’s interesting that when I synced up the pedals last night it showed both pedals as having connected, but as soon as I started my workout it only showed the left pedal as connecting (the right showed as disconnected). I wonder if maybe Powertap hadn’t updated their firmware to channel data from both pedals yet? Either way, without the proper support in an output file it’s kind of moot anyway.
Hi
We don’t currently have support for duel BTLE pedal in any of our Wahoo apps. Our API (that nearly every fitness app uses) does support duel pedals but the problem is that each app needs to handle the duel power meters, this is much more complex than the ANT+ implementation where they are a single power meter with a simple L/R percentage. Its on our todo list, but as I mentioned on another comment it requires a lot of design changes in our database and connection manager, this is why you see one pedal disconnect.
Unfortunately PowerTap didn’t reach out to us for support and since everyone uses our API on mobile devices, if we don’t support it, its basically impossible for anyone. I am trying to get some P1’s so we can update support and at least confirm basic functionality.
We have been talking about FIT support for a LOOONG time, its probably the oldest item in our backlog thats still valid, it just keeps getting pushed down the list. We have the FIT SDK integrated and we really do want to add support, I just don’t know when.
That makes me weary…reading all the little negative aspects makes me sad that I already bought them…2 more weeks in pre order, wonder if I should cancel it now
Well i have had my P1’s for 10 days now and rode about 200 miles on them, my verdict is they are sublime! I am still waiting, like everyone else, for an android app to update over the air in the future and of course the garmin update regarding the crank length……….fingers crossed those items get sorted ASAP.
In terms of accuracy i have tested them against my stages PM, i usually average between 360 and 390w on a 20 minute FTP test, this time of the year around 360 – 370w i did a 20 minute FTP on the P1’s and managed 364w for the duration, this ties in perfectly with approx 12 months of data i have collected from the stages PM.
Initially when i first installed the pedals i used the supplied batteries and on the first ride experienced terrible power drops, i changed the batteries for the next ride and the drops went. The only issue to me then was the left right balance, it definately favours the left leg, i was getting 53/47 balance and over the last 7 days managed to get this closer to 51/49 i have notably pedalled harder on the right for a period of time to check the balance and i get 51/49 right / left, i then pedal notably harder on the left and get 58/42 i do think the right pedal lags behind the left a little so hopefully Powertap can look at this inconsistancy??
To date though, amazing product, easy to install and very accurate, no power spikes noted and i do detect that when you power up to 600 – 700w for about 40 second stints they are very smooth and consistent, softer pedalling and the power drops more than the stages does but with 8 strain guages in each pedal i suspect it is far more accurate at callculating the torque in the whole pedal stroke than the stages, hence harder pedalling resulting in better more smoother power data. I did an ultimate power test on Monday and managed 315w for 2 hours and 10 minutes, they never missed a beat…….i even turned on the balance icon on the garmin 1000 and get real time left/right balance as i ride, this is one feature that is not locked down by garmin so take advantage, the garmin 1000 has a cycling dynamics screen and the power balance works on that screen which is great!
All in all an amazing product and i would definately recommend!!!!!
i think I may have also experienced the power spike… not sure though because I think I might be capable of 45,000 watts ;-) Okay… maybe not. It doesn’t seem to be frequent occurrence though since with 6 rides (about 300 miles) and it has only occurred once. Does anyone know if there is a way to have Garmin Connect ignore the abnormal reading? (I think I read that there was not but thought I would ask).
Also, a little off topic, this is my first foray into training with power so if anyone has advice on blogs to read to read to maximize my use of the data it would be appreciated. Thanks
Hi Dave,
Basically sharing the same as you – testing P1 for 3 weeks, few spikes up 4500W and amazing L/R reading during ride on my Edge 800. I also noticed there is no a huge difference when using default crank lenght (while riding Ultegra) or shorter of 0,5cm (SRAM Red on TT bike). I can still feel “the comfort zone” and then keeping in is hard enough to provide power metter advantage.
A good reading is here:
link to home.trainingpeaks.com
link to home.trainingpeaks.com
Dave:
If your P1s are like me, you might notice a few more spikes by exporting your .FIT file to a .CSV file and then importing it into Excel. I use this tool for the conversion:
http://garmin.kiesewetter.nl
Then when I look at the power file, there are plenty of places where anomalies occur. On the head unit, I think it’s a lot harder to spot them because the smaller spikes get buried in all the data– or I’m just not watching the head unit near the time that the spike occurs. i can’t go for an hour’s ride without getting a half dozen spikes– or my wattage dropping in half when I’m pushing the same effort (even though my PT g3 hubs running at the same time say that my wattage hasn’t changed at all).
Currently, the P1s aren’t a reliable training tool for me. Today, I was riding on the trainer for a half hour recovery ride with 6-minute ramp ups. I had my 810 recording my P1s and my 920xt recording my P1s. Everything seemed fine and consistent between the P1 and G3 until the last 6-minute set. During that set, my G3’s were saying that my power was a constant 230 watts but my P1s were jumping all over the place for the full six minutes and that my overall average was 169 watts over the same period. It was almost as if one pedal’s watts weren’t getting counted because my power undulated between 50% and 100% of the G3’s power readings. I’ve got a line into Powertap to discuss as I may just have a defective unit.
Have you contacted Powertap tech support, they were reasonably responsive to me, although the answers weren’t exactly what I wanted to hear, they did communicate.
Wink,
As I mentioned, I have a line into them to discuss. But I’ll also call them tomorrow. I’m afraid to ask– what did they tell you? ;-)
My pedals were reading way low, turns out you can’t use a phone to get the power data, no existing app works. Not form them or anyone else as far as I can tell. So I had to buy a head unit, I bought theirs, a Joule GPS+. Theirs works, but i can’t use my wahoo speed/cadence device because the Joule doesn’t have complete Bluetooth support yet. So not perfect but good enough for now.
Hi Ray
Been a busy couple of weeks for you! What are your thoughts on the Powertap C1 power meter? Given the price discount vs the P1 pedals, what does the C1 ‘give up’?
I like it, but it’s different than the P1. I’ve got a unit that I’ve been using on and off, and just received the most recent pre-prod unit as well.
In many ways though I put it in the same camp as the Quarq Riken and Power2Max units. So it’s really down to figuring out which fits your existing bike setup the best. All of them have pretty much identical features/functionality (and very similiar prices).
Great review ! Will you also write a long one on the C1 chainrings power meters ? I hesitate a lot between P1 and C1 and would like to make sure I am not doing the wrong choice…
I ride on road and home trainer but always on the same bike. So do you think that buying the C1 would be the good choice for me ?
Price of the C1 is much more attractive. The only problem I “have” with C1 is that the smallest ring in front can not be less than 36 (I use a 50-34 and really like it).
What do you think ?
PS : Sorry for my bad english guys ;-)
Yes, I’ll also have a C1 In-Depth Review out once they have final product. I’ve been using on and off beta variants, but obviously for a power meter wouldn’t want to base things on that.
Ray, question I’d love you to look into. Riding my P1’s with a Garmin 510, power readings seem correct. If I unclip my right leg power drops, as expected, and balance says 100-0. However, if I unclip my left leg power (and cadence) both drop to zero.
Hey Richard, I think I can answer that one, the leg pedal is the master pedal and all data is sent to the head unit via the left pedal, if the right pedal battery dies the power from the left pedal is doubled to maintain power readings, if the left pedal battery dies before the right then no power will be indicated on the head unit at all. Personally I hope powertap change this via firmware update so each pedal talks to the head unit independently!!
Left pedal****
So you reckon that if the left pedal is unclipped and hence not registering cadence the pedals are presumed to be asleep? I did wonder if that could be the case. Interestingly I also tried running the iPhone ap at the same time, via Bluetooth, with the Garmin 510 connected via Ant+. The iPhone app was registering half power the whole time. Definitely a few bugs to iron out. Have to say though, none of them bother me – so long as it talks accurately with my Garnin 510 and my 920 once they update the crank length setting then I’m happy with them. Though I do want the pedalling dynamics to be not too far away and working with WKO4.
I tested it this evening and it is a little curious. With the Garmin 510 (fw 4.20) I get the same as Richard when only using the right pedal: 100-0 But if I use the Wahoo fitness app and look at the device menu for the right pedal: it registers cadence and power while being clipped only in the right pedal. The Garmin at the same time says 100-0. The right pedal is sending data! (and checking the left one it reads truely 0) Now clipping in the left pedal and almost do nothing and have your right leg do the work I can get a 4%-96% balance in the Garmin. btw: in the main traning screen of the Wahoo fitness app the power drops to 0, while it reads data from the right pedal.
It looks like a software / data interpretation issue. PT already noticed that a lot of apps need to have changes in order to interpret the data from right and left without the left being the master.
As mentioned above in another reply, I experienced the same behavior during my first ride with the P1s (purchased from CT). I tried right leg only because of the right sensor warning message. Power shows 0 (and balance shows 100-0 as it does when power is 0). Because of the transmission via the left pedal, I could understand this if the left pedal died or had no more battery, but it’s a little odd that just unclipping the left foot results in a 0 power reading immediately… I’m using an Edge 800.
Click this link and go to the statement heading underneath shown in brackets.
link to powertap.com
(WILL I STILL RECEIVE A POWER READING IF ONE PEDAL LOSES BATTERY POWER BEFORE THE OTHER?)
I would presume that if nothing is being sent from the left pedal then no data will show, but simply unclipping does seem odd as the left pedal will still be “active”
Hi,
Recently, I purchased a pair of PowerTap P1 pedals. These also transmit cadence readings to my Ambit 2S. Though, during my rides the cadence readings are inconsistent. I noticed cadence droping to zero during time trail efforts with confirmed continuous pedal movement.
Previously, I was using the Giant ride sense speed/cadence ANT+ sensor to measure cadence. I’ve removed the cadence magnet, and disabled the cadence pod in movescount. I still use the ride sense sensor for speed measurement.
During my initial rides with the P1 pedals, the readings were on/off all the time. During my latest ride, the cadence readings didn’t come up at all. No settings were changed between these rides.
According to my knowledge, the power meter is dependent on measuring the revolutions to be able to calculate the applied power, P=(F*l)/2pi*n. So the fact the the signal droppes out must be related to the transfer between the pedal and watch. If the pedals weren’t measuring cadence, the power readings would also drop to zero. P1 Batteries are replaced with fresh ones.
My question; has anyone else seen such issues before regarding communication issues between the Ambit 2S and PowerTap P1 pedals? Is there a quick fix to solve this?
I’ve sent this to Suunto and Powertap as well, as I suspect that this has something to do with the ANT+ communication in combination with the ride sense sensor.
Just to clarify, did you remove the entire cadence pod (3rd party), or just the magnet?
Hi,
I only removed the magnet, as I’m still using the combined sensor to measure speed. I have disabled the cadence POD in Movescount though. But I’ve got a gut feeling that the Bike Pod stil sends 0 cadence and overrides the pedal’s signal. I’ll try and completely remove the Giant speed/cadence sensor prior to a ride, see if that helps. Do you know how to unpair sensors in the Ambit series? I don’t see that possibility in the watch / Movescount.
Have you ever seen different ANT+ sensors hijacking each other?
PowerTap was stating something similar:
“Hey Theo,
Cadence will not affect the power reading on the P1s. Both are measured in different ways by different sensors. They are both broadcast from the same source in the same way… so it might be the another sensor hijacking the cadence signal.
As for an android PowerTap Mobile app, there is a catch. Each phone manufacturer makes their own customizations to the Android system, some of which can cause conflicts. So, those apps take the longest to develop. I do not have an ETA for you.”
Their answer about cadence not affecting power readings doesn’t make sense, as the circumferential speed is needed to calculate the actual power. Therefore the correct cadence measurement is needed. As is the crank arm length as previously discussed above in relation with the Garmin units discussion. The fact that they both broadcast from the same source confirms my theory. I expect the Giant speed/cadence sensor doing the same.
It’s disappointing that the android app won’t be comming available soon though.
Theo
Yeah, so that’s what I was concerned about – just removing magnet and not sensors. I’ve seen issues in the past using that approach with Garmin devices, as it’ll confuse them. The reason is that the sensor is still sending the data – zeros – so while I’d say it’s likely not causing you’re problem, I’d definitely try a ride with the sensor left at home.
does this effect other meters as well (p2m)? Dual Speed/Cadence sensors are pretty common so that would be a pain.
Perhaps it would be possible for the Powertap ioS App to make is so that you can choose to disable cadence from the ANT+ transmission, so the pedals would use cadence (as needed) to calculate power and other metrics – but not send the Cadence unit parameter to the headunit via ANT+/BTLE?
If you agree Ray, it would be great for you to send a feature request – or let us know that this is not possible – and that a speed-only sensor would need to be bought :)
I would guess that there are far more Speed/Cadence combination users than separate considering how ubiquitous the GSC 10, let alone all the Trek/Bontrager Duotap and Giant RideSense Users.
I would go as far as describing dropping Cadence due to sensor interference a bug.
Considering that I dont believe GSC 10/RideSense/Duotap can be installed onto a Gramin headunit as “Speed Only” (I may be wrong) – and based on the assumption that the P1 has the ability for the user to manipulate/select settings(?) – i would put the ball in powertaps court
Hello, I’m a fan of your review work! Congrats!
Any news about ambit 3 peak compatibility and P1, I intent to buy a set of pedals next october.
Thanks.
any word on the power spikes reported?
saw the following issue posted about on facebook (and elsewhere) …..
“P1 right side pedal has the red/green LED jammed on, battery still has 1.5V output tried new battery and LED stays on. Garmin can no longer find right pedal.”
Thanks for the indepth review DC. As a result, and on the recommendations of a fellow racer, I got the new P1 pedals a week ago. Got them home, put in the batteries, screwed to my cranks, turned on my Garmin500 head unit and waited for the magic. The unit for the cranks OK, but it told me that the was a “power meter software mismatch. Please update your software”. Are you serious? They’re brand new, why should I have to update anything to get them working? Tried off and on a few times, same display. Managed to calibrate a couple of times, and thought I had somehow just bypassed an erroneous message, but when I took it for a short ride up a steep hill, got ‘0’ reading from the power meter. Took it to the LBS where I got them from, and they tried to suggest it was the 500 being too old and not being updated to accommodate the new technology. I wanted to get a new 520 as soon as they were available anyway, so I got one of thto, thinking that would solve my problems, but it came up with the very same message. Also said the R pedal was missing, but I wasn’t worried about that because my mate had the same message and said he just ignored it and still got left/right power on his Garmin1000. Just to be certain it wasn’t a Garmin problem, I paired the pedals with a fully updated piece of crap Magellan (mio) 505, and although I didn’t get the “software mismatch” message, I still got no power output readings.
Has anyone else had this problem/have a solution? I have been using a G3 PT hub for 12 months wiout a problem, so I’m very surprised that they didn’t fire up straight out of the box, and very disappointed. Picture of screen message attached…..
Weird, I’ve never seen that message on an Edge 500 in my life before (and Google can’t seem to find anything either).
I’d ring up PowerTap first thing in the morning and start there. My guess is that they’ll be able to get you straightened away pretty quickly.
(Just as a general rule of thumb for other folks, I don’t usually recommend going to your LBS to troubleshoot, but rather just calling the manufacturer – especially for power products. The reason is that as awesome as the LBS’s are, they just aren’t going to be technically deep enough to troubleshoot error codes on products these days, especially new products. In this case, while you wanted the Edge 520 anyway – I don’t think that made any difference here – and their advice was incorrect initially anyway – as it’s fully compatible. In fact, it’s actually more compatible than the Edge 520 right now is, as you can’t yet set crank length on the Edge 520.)
In any case, hit up PowerTap first thing in the morning and would be curious to see what they say.
Frank, Have you tried to put only a battery in the left one? Suppose (this is a long shot) there are two different versions of firmware on the left and right pedal? If only the left pedal works it will double its output and ignore the right one, ‘thinking’ the right one has gone dead. You can at least see which version the left pedal is. In the properties of the Garmin screen for the powermeter it will mention the firmware version. If you get still the same software mismatch message than I’m lost. Btw: the firmware version on my P1’s is 1.90.
Ive got what you call ” piece of crap Magellan 505″ and its flawless. In fact it hardly ever gives me problems compared to the crap Garmins ive had. How that company survives is beyond me with their issues.
Maybe its just you Frankie boy, you seem not to be able to use technology that well given that screenshot!
Oooh, a bit harsh Steve – no option to orientate the photo when I put it up…..as for the Magellan, I got one when it first came out so I’d have some maps when I went riding in Europe, but the touchscreen shat itself to the point I couldn’t type anything anymore, constant freezing, one drop of water on the screen and I couldn’t even swipe. Full replacement, and the new one wasn’t much better, although at least the keyboard hasn’t gone wierd. Anyway, this isn’t about Magellan, and I like my Garmin?
Have got onto the local distributor, who are looking into it with their supplier – he hadn’t heard of that problem either. In the meantime, my LBS are going to swap my dodgy pair for another set they have in the shop that ARE working properly, so it won’t be my problem anymore, and the distributor can have a really good look at his leisure.
Is this compatible with Garmin Edge 705?
I don’t believe the Edge 705 supports crank length (nor Left/Right), but I’m not 100% certain offhand.
I was told by Powertap’s facebook page that if your crank is not 172.5mm, then you’ll need the crankarm length param. In anycase, I have the p1 on order. I’ll see if it works on my 705. I have a feeling it won’t show L/R power, just total power. We’ll see. I’ll update you guys.
Like James (above), my power data isn’t very consistent across my power meters. I just got my P1’s a few days ago so my experience is very limited. Today, I did a recovery spin today on the Computrainer with a G3 Powertap hub (connected to my Garmin 920xt) and the P1 pedals (connected to my Garmin Edge 810). On the longer intervals, the P1 was consistently higher– by about 10-12 watts. But on shorter intervals, the P1 exhibited a slight “lag” so the G3 had virtually identical or even higher average watts over the interval. The attached graph is smoothed data to about 30 seconds (P1 is red and G3 is blue). The zeroing of data is actual– I stopped pedaling on two occasions. There was also a big spike in my G3 data which is more moderate in the graph. I had no spikes in my P1 data.
I’m using 165mm cranks and I’m wondering if my 810 is really taking that into consideration. The 10-12 watt gap is bigger than the difference of 172.5/165, but maybe it makes sense with the difference in where the power is being measured (pedal versus hub) and factors like drivetrain losses? From this mini test, I’m also thinking that the G3 is a little more “responsive” than the P1.
I really rely on my power data for keeping my power in line during longer interval sets or races, so the “inaccuracies” of the P1 are irritating but not earth-shattering. I guess I will have to adjust my expectations in comparing power data between the P1 and the G3– it’s okay if they are different as long as they are consistently different. But it would still be nice if the data was a little closer than 10-12 watts so I wouldn’t have to make any significant translations.
PSA: toss the batteries that come with the P1. I did a ride yesterday with exactly the same setup and had tons of dropped data and huge data lags with the P1. I then switched batteries to a fresh set of Duracells and all was good. This does make me worry a little bit about what will happen in actual use because I never received any warning that the original batteries were low.
Ken, i would of thought consistency of the device is more important then a comparison to another device, if you’re training to power you want the same reading each and every time so 200 watts on Monday is the same on the Thursday. That way you are training to the same level each time and can track your progress accordingly. i understand its great to compare them with a known working unit initially but if the swing isn’t massive you have established it is pretty close then you are good to go? Unless i am missing something this seems logical to me.
My legs are two different lengths ( ~5 mm ), so I use two different crank arm lengths, 167.5 on the left, and 170 on the right. ( I also shim my cleat or have insole spacing on the left ). I am interested in pedal-based power meters to help determine which leg is working harder. Any idea of future support for different crank lengths on the same bike for _any_ pedal-based power meter ?
So for Garmin head units support something called ‘Scale Factor’, which allows you to specify a % offset, which correctly scales for different head units.
The challenge though is that Garmin only enables that on Vector-connected head units. Otherwise the setting doesn’t show up. I’m not sure if they plan to allow that otherwise, I can ask next week.
(I learned it’s not enabled otherwise when a power meter company had sent me a mismatched left crank arm compared to my existing crank set and thought I’d be able to easily just set the offset…no love.)
I think that’s the same scale factor that can be written to each pedal using Vector firmware update utility running on PC and Mac, so that would not be in the head unit but in the Vector pedals. So for the Vector it’s definitively possible to use the scale factor to have different crank lengths on left and right and still get correct power readings. And, it would be nice if any head unit had a scale factor specifically for left and right pedal of each power meter in the sensor pool.
U R all Ossum, thanks for the replies.
FWIW, I worked through many crank length combinations from 172.5 to 165, my current selection is by what feels good, not numbers. Plus my left knee doesn’t hurt all the time anymore.
167.5 isn’t a length manufactured by many these days, poo on those that don’t 8)
Thanks again.
Now that Look has a walk-able cleat in their new Touring shoe (BikeRadar Look Touring Shoe link), does anyone know if those would be compatible with PowerTap P1 pedals?
I’d really like a pedal-based power meter but I need a somewhat walkable shoe.
(Also, really hoping this picture passes muster with Steve.) ;-)
Any idea why these things use so much energy relative to competitor products? Compare the 60-hour rating to Garmin Vector 2’a 175h, which seems pretty typical. The Vector pedals use CR2032s with about a fifth of the charge capacity as AAAs (1200mAh vs. 240mAh). The back of the envelop corollary here is that the Powertap P1s are drawing ~15x the current to do the same thing… Am I missing something?
link to data.energizer.com
link to data.energizer.com
link to data.energizer.com
Wow that’s interesting. I didn’t really look at that. The pt crank and hub claim 200 hr…but why are pedals only 60? Does voltage have anything to do with that? AAA 1.5v and cr2032 3.0v…?
Yes the voltage has something to do with it. Watts in electricity are defined by V*A (Voltage * Ampere). 3v*240mAh = 1.5v*480mAh. So compared to the Vector’s, best comparison, they use about 4 to 6 times as much power. Not reading many people getting the 175 hours out of the Vectors; most complain that they don’t get near that time. Other power-meters have far less sensors than the P1 so they can be more economical with battery power. Still have to try using rechargeable batteries, but I have read others using them in the P1 without problems; can’t do that with the Vectors.
btw: so far with my P1’s and original batteries: about 12 hours use, 300+ kilometers, one big power spike, one right pedal that had a software hick-up. They just do their work, feel very solid and work fine without any squeak or noise. Very happy with them.
Okay, I’ve been riding 8 days now (~800km) w the P1 pedals + red cleats on new Bont Zero+ shoes. 70% sunny/dry + 30% rainy/dirty conditions (it’s currently rainy season in Chiang Mai, Thailand). Cleaned the bike w just water + microfiber towel, no pressure spray or strong chemicals etc. Applied lube. But the cleats or pedals are squeaking like hell. What to do? Never experienced anything like this before with Shimano SPD-SL cleats and pedals. I’ve tried cleaning the pedals and cleats and let them dry over night and applying dry teflon lube (finish line red) and let sit for 2-3 hours and go out, nothing — still pedals or cleats keep squeeking like hell, both when moving sideways (6 degree float) or pedalling on down-stroke, as well as up-stroke. Any ideas? A quick google turns up that apparently people are having squeaking issues with Look Keo cleats — could this be something of the same? Bit bummed at the moment..
Okay, opened up the spring part of the pedal and cleaned it all up, applied new grease and put it back together, then tightened the spring tension almost to the maximum, apparently it was in a very loose position by default, cleaned up the cleats as well and seems like the squeaking is gone. I’m pretty sure that at least part of the squeaking came from the pedal springs, if not most or all, cause as soon as I inserted the hex wrench and turned the spring spindle it procuced the same squeaky sound. High tension makes it less prone to move when pedalling, so I guess mainly it was a simple case of just tightening the pedal tension up as high as comfortable to make the connection more stiff when pedalling and therefore minimize the friction and movement that would cause the awful sound track. Will see after the next time I get hit by a rain shower.
I hope the Bluetooth dongle solution isn’t Powertaps answer to helping people without Iphones to update their firmware?
I would guess if people already own a USB dongle, it would be ANT+ and not Bluetooth. In fact, I would guess very few people own bluetooth dongles. I realize at $25-40, they aren’t expensive, but that is not a fix for us non-Iphone users. The more appropriate fix would have been to create an app for the Android system or worst case scenario to at least allow an ANT+ dongle to do the work!
FYI, my Garmin Edge 800 Taiwan edition doesn’t show Crank Arm Length settings. It is simply not showing up. In your chart, Edge 800 is fully functional. But it is working with P1 without problem. My crank arm is default to 172.5 mm though.
Use PowerTap software (or FitRepairTool)
Just to be sure – are you trying to change it on the sensor settings, or within bike profiles?
I have tried to find it under bike profiles / bike detail. Unfortunately, it is not there. and not under sensor settings as well.
The other info. I found where the cleats are from. The exact same made for Keo pedals from Wellgo. The model# is RC7. I just don’t get it though. Since they are made for Keo pedals, why they have different styles. Look at the rubbers attached to cleats. Keo’s are on the tip. Wellgo’s in the middle and under the top hole.
I’m sorry. I need to correct my mistake. The Edge 800 does have crank arm length parameter. The P1 has to be AROUND and ACTIVATED. Then the option will show up under Bike Profiles / Bike Detail. My bad. I used to take Edge 800 upstairs so the communication was interrupted.
Has anyone tried to use the P1 pedals with the Pioneer SGX-CA500 head unit?
I got the pedals (via CT) recently and the touch screen on my Edge 800 has died after my first ride. :-(
Since it’s the 3rd or 4th time that it’s happened (all within 10-14 months of owning the device), I’m a little tired of dealing with Garmin despite the fact that they have been pretty good at replacing the units so far.
I guess another option is the Joule GPS+. I don’t know anybody using that one…
Anyone know if the Garmin 810 has a battery level field that relates to the P1 power meter (and what it is)? I found a battery field, but it monitors the Garmin head unit battery level and not the pedals. It would be handy to have this information displayed on the head unit to know when the P1 batteries need replacing. Otherwise it is hard to monitor that little light on the pedals for that information!
Not directly within the unit, however, most PM’s will report battery power if you go into the sensors menu and then the info screens. I don’t have an Edge 810 with me at the moment to validate that specific combo.
The PT app for your phone has a battery field that for me has not been accurate. In fact–it always displays 100% strength.
I have not seen a battery life or percent power display on my 920XT or my edge 1000.
I have however noted in TrainerRoad that is displays hours of use that appear to me to be accurate. I don’t know if you use TrainerRoad, but if you do, if you go to the settings page and look at your power meter connected (assuming it’s the pedals) it will show you hours or use, signal strength, etc.
Now I’ve had the pedals for about a week and I’m getting power spikes too. Sometimes the spikes are in the range of 2-3,000 watts but, other times, it is in the range of 40,000+ watts. Either way, it does definitely mess with my data on my head unit. I’ve just started hitting the lap button when it happens, as lap average is my key metric.
Another issue I’ve noticed is that there are a ton more dropped data when I export the .FIT files to analyze in Excel. I’ll take the same ride with my P1s and a G3 Powertap hub. From a two hour ride, the data file from my G3 has maybe a half dozen lines where no data (note: not zero) get recorded. By contrast, the data file from my P1 has probably at least 10-20 times as many lines where data just never got recorded.
I’ve gone 9 days with the P1 pedals with no major issues, except for some occasional very weird power spikes, like 63,800 watts, which does through off the whole actitvity average data of course and is very annoying. But yesterday on my 10th day with the P1 I turned on my Garmin 810, calibrated the P1, started my ride and then noticed that the Balance reading is not working. I then tried restarting the Garmin for at least 10 times throughout the ride, recalibrating, redetecting the P1, starting a new activity and doing all these steps again, nothing, the Balance reading is not showing anything anymore, what’s going on? The only thing I didn’t try was doing a factory reset for the Garmin, but I would rather not do that obviously, since I’ve got everything set up. Absolutely nothing was changed since my previous ride the day before, when the Balance worked fine. Any ideas?
Here’s data from ydays ride, no L/R data and notice the huge power spike:
link to connect.garmin.com
Here’s data from a ride where all is okay:
link to connect.garmin.com
So one thing I’ve found with the Edge 810 and power balance is that if it doesn’t find both pedals BEFORE you press the start button, it’ll never search for them again. So you effectively just get a one-pedal system.
It’s not limited to the P1’s either, I can repro it on both Verve Infocrank and bePRO.
What I do to ensure that doesn’t happen is to give both crank arms a 2-3 rotation spin before I turn on the unit, just to be safe. Or, at the very least before I press the start button.
Thanks, this gives me some ideas of what might have happened. I did get the “right sensor missing” message I believe every time as well, but normally I’ve just ignored it as I thought it was only a bug and never seen it affecting any readings before.
One thing though, you say that if it doesn’t find the right pedal sensor, then it only works with the left sensor as a one-pedal system, really? Meaning that it will only measure the left leg and double the power output? I thought that this could not happen with P1 as the pedals are paired and can only be used together — ie if the right pedal is inactive and not sending data to the left, then there is no power reading, but it’s not correct then? Basically the left pedal can be used alone then? Just not the right one obviously.
So one trick I started doing with the Verve Infocrank (since it seems to wake-up slightly slower than the P1’s), was to simply add the balance screen to one of my fields. I don’t really use it that much (at all mostly) during a ride, but i just put it on a random data page.
If that shows null, then the pedal/side wasn’t found.
Or…the battery on the right pedal is dead/weak.
It was indeed the battery. Left one seemed to have still more juice left. After about 30 hours. So not 60 hours as claimed, but I guess that can vary a lot, based on climate/temp and so on. All good again after replacing the batteries.
Not sure really where to put this :) be reading this website for a while now and jolly fine it is to (as is my new fenix 3). However am new to a lot of this stuff though and am about to have a go with getting a turbo trainer and a power meter. And i cant really think of a better place to ask than in this review, I have one road bike used as a commuter and local routes and hills and want to get some general improving going on. seems to me that a power meter (stages for cost / power tap pedals to give some future proofing for a new bike), a dumb but quality resistance trainer (e.g. a Kurt kinetic) and trainer road on tablet sat in my shed could nail most of what the Kickr and Tacx have to offer, only be a change of wheel away from quite a sophisticated outfit? and use power to turn up the efforts on commutes, I don’t want flaky software just a good quality outfit, thoughts please
For Polar v650 owners-
According to Powertap site:
Are the P1s compatible with the Polar V650?
Yes they are.
That was my question – good to see they said yes, but on facebook they said they haven’t tested it yet!
Hi
Always enjoy your reviews. They are outstanding.
My question is not strictly technical: I have gone from using normal shimano pedals on dura ace cranks with the Stages PM on left crank to the now considerably heavier P1 pedals. I am finding that I have overall less power and tire more quickly now during my hard rides. So, would you have any views on how long it might take to adapt to the new extra 100 or so grams under each one of my feet?
Thanks
My guess is you wouldn’t notice it past clipping in the first time. But perhaps that’s just me.
Hello Ray
the Xpedo Thrust E seems to be available in some shops:
link to bruegelmann.de
link to bikester.at
…
have you so already tested it?
kind regards
klaus
No, not yet. Someone asked about it a day or two ago and essentially I haven’t heard if they were actually shipping. Sometimes with a bunch of small stores claim having it in-stock, it’s not, but rather actually the backend inventory systems with a distributor tie-in show it as in-stock. Perhaps it really is, but I’m just surprised that nobody in the cycling press has ridden it.
Either way, I’m sure they’ll be at Interbike this week – so I’ll catch-up with them there.
seems like these power spikes are fairly common.
any word from power tap wether they are a firmware or hardware issue?
perhaps it is simply demand/supply, but I have noticed that ‘is stock by X’ dates in EU seem to have moved back 8 weeks.
It sounds like a communication issue. Why certain people see it and others don’t is the mystery. I’ll discuss it with them (and ANT+) this week at Interbike.
Is there perhaps a connection with a PowerCal heart-rate strap? I used it, but have switched back to my Garmin strap to prevent the Garmin 510 to perhaps listen to two powermeter signals; or have some strange readings. It should not be a problem, but there are more things in life that should not be. Haven’t had a spike since and the P1’s perform well. On the other hand: PT reported to me that most users see only one or two spikes when the pedals are relatively new, so perhaps it is a run-in issue that does not occur after several hours of use.
Hi Ray, I have been trialing a set of the P1 pedals and have experienced the power spike many others are reporting.
I have noticed when standing on a climb that the P1 reads between 14-24W higher than my SRM yet when riding seated, they report very similar watts. Have you noticed this on your rides? Would this be an expected outcome based on standing on the pedals?
I am using the Garmin Edge 800 with the P1 pedals and an Edge 510 with the SRM.
Thanks and once again excellent review!
Jack,
I was talking with Powertap this morning and casually asked about comparing power readings between different types of power meters and this topic came up. He said that power while seated should be about 3% lower than the same effort when measured on a set of G3 hubs. However, when standing, power will spike upwards (of course not on the order of the huge spikes people are reporting), particularly with heavier riders. It has to do with the inherent design of the pedal.
As I get more and more mileage with different power meters (simultaneously), I’m noticing that power isn’t really comparable between different power meters. For instance, 230 watts on a G3 isn’t going to be 230 watts on a P1. And I assume that’s true no matter what combination of power meters one chooses.
I haven’t yet been able to reproduce it on any of my rides, any of my bikes, or any of my head units. Most of my rides I’ve got at least two different head units recording the P1’s, and still can’t get a spike to create.
I think I’m up to four different bikes I’ve put the pedals on now as well.
As for differences in power meters, yeah, there will be some. Typically it is indeed the hub that should be lowest, with the pedals highest. But when you get within a few percent, you’re within the margin of error for any of the units.
I’ve never seen a properly working PM ‘flip’ the higher/lower values when going from standing to seating. Usually a set of proper PM’s will trend at the same ordering, sprint or no sprint.
I believe ray has mentioned this on most if not all reviews that the power output can vary from pm to pm. The think I find interesting is that pedal is lower than a hub? I thought more force or torque would come from the direct forces…like the pedals? I’m confused I guess
Jonathan,
Just reporting what I was told by Powertap– I would have thought it would be just the opposite too! I even ran through some numbers that they confirmed (e.g. “you mean if my G3 data is showing 230 watts, my P1s should be displaying about 223 watts?”)– just to make clear exactly what they were saying because it seemed a bit surprising. They also explained that some of that variation had to do with the p1’s internal algorithms and how they compensate for some otherwise wonky data that they were getting with heavier riders. Then that started making sense to me– what shows up on the head unit is all a function of those algorithms regardless of the actual forces applied to the pedals.
At least in my very limited experience, the differences between the P1 and my G3 is a bit deeper than just the variation that Ray has reported. For instance, I raced the Lake Stevens triathlon this weekend and my watts were about 10 watts higher on my P1s than on my G3s. And no, I wasn’t standing much on that ride. But riding on a trainer yesterday, the P1s were consistently 10 watts lower. 20 watts is a huge difference, especially when the difference isn’t consistent. Until I make sense of that difference, I can’t rely on my P1s. Granted, I may have a defective pair of P1s as my watts do also oscillate like crazy every now and then. For instance, on one six minute set yesterday on the trainer, my P1 watts oscillated between 100-230 watts throughout the entire interval whereas my G3 data was rock steady at 230 watts. At the end of the interval, my P1s reported an average wattage of 160 watts versus an average of 230 watts for my G3s. Granted, Ray has mentioned that every PM goes bonkers every now and again– but I get crazy data on every ride I take. Even the PT folks hinted that I should stick with my G3 data as they told me that’s what they consider their gold standard for accuracy compared to the P1s.
Thanks for clarity ken. I’m a bit concerned but I guess I should have known better to buy new release products. This will basically be my first pm so basing of what you’ve heard makes me wonder if I could even train efficiently and effectively. I have no idea what my power could be either! I tried plugging in my profile into the power cycling online calculator but that didn’t come close to what strava had estimated for me… from the power cycling cal I was doing about 200w. But on strava it read avg 130w? Omg I’m so not in shape or something lol.
I guess I should not be basing any estimate for that matter…now with p1 iffy data…
I have Garmin edge 500 btw, wonder if I’m in luck? I didn’t hear or read any spikes and such unless I’ve overlooked those. =-O
I wouldn’t stress Jonathan. I’ve been using a G3 and P1’s for several rides, and I have seen identical power numbers within a watt for both Pav and NP. I have found that power at the start of intervals varies (sometimes P1 is higher, sometimes G3 reads higher) but the longer the interval goes on, the closer the two numbers become. From my experience I completely trust the P1 to be giving accurate numbers.
Jonathan,
I agree with Richard. Yes, I’m getting some anomalies. But I also strongly suspect that I may have a defective unit. About 85% of the time, it works fine– and when it doesn’t, I know it. When I say it isn’t a useful training tool for me, that’s because I’m comparing it to my G3’s, which are working perfectly and which I’m fully adjusted to. But compared to training without a power meter, I’ll happily take my misbehaving P1.
In the end, I’m still glad I bought the P1s. I know that Powertap will stand behind their product. The issues we’re all having now will be a thing of the past soon. Nothing beats the convenience of the P1s. I’ve used them several times at the gym, swapping out the pedals on their trainer with the P1s. I do a ton of business travel and just that ability to swap is enough for me. I also tend to be very finicky with power meters. For instance, I believe that spikes are really much more noticeable in Excel files– Training Peaks and other services filter them out so most people probably don’t even notice them.
So even if you got a set of P1s like mine, it will still change your training and racing. If you start getting weird data on your head unit, you’ll know it’s off and you may curse for a few minutes. But the rest of the time, things will work fine and you’ll wonder how you ever trained without it.
Just a follow-up to my last message to reiterate my point about Powertap standing behind their product. I contacted Powertap, they looked at my data from my FIT files and noticed they were a bit screwy, and they are taking care of it by replacing them. So my current set of P1s were probably defective after all. I’ve got to say that my customer service experience with them has been incredible. I’ve been using Powertap products from the first yellow-capped Tune power hubs (around 15 years ago) and they have been a great company to deal with ever since.
Again, when your data is messed up, you’ll know it. If you have access to an indoor trainer– or preferably a computer-controlled trainer like a Wahoo Kickr or a Computrainer that can hold you at a constant load– I’d say spend some time running steady intervals on a recovery day. If you start noticing really weird data, contact Powertap.
I’d like to be clear that, even though I’ve had spikes on my two sets of pedals, I’m not stressed or phased (yet) as the dealings that I’ve had with PowerTap over the issue have been first rate too. They’re not tried to run and hide from the issue, acknowledged it to me, and been timely in responses. I have no doubt they’ll resolve this and the pedals have a two year warranty, so really, I’m pretty comfortable with the situation so far.
Compare this to the support of the watch/computer manufacturer and they’re polar (not a pun) opposites.
For what it’s worth, I’ve posted before and have several comparative files of my P1 vs Powertap hub vs 2 different stages PM’s and the P1 has consistently been lower. Sometimes markedly lower (30+watts) over extended segments (training indoors with variables controlled). I have sent multiple files to PowerTap and am waiting to hear back.
noticed in the manual that there is a magnet warning. does this mean putting my p1 through airport scanners is a bad idea? one reason for getting them was the ease of moving them around on holiday rental bikes.
would be interested in the PT response to this. Lots of people use button magnets on the spindle end for cadence, which may be ok – but what exactly are they warning against? surely the scanner magnets are VERY strong, and obviously a large powerful field.
i’ve flown with the p1s. no issue.
be happy
Mine have had plenty of airport time – no issues.
I’ll ask tomorrow what specifically it means (I suspect it means don’t attach a magnet to the side of it).
thanks for asking.
due to my crank length and using ‘in frame’ bontrager duotap for sp/cad i have had to place a small button magnet on the spindle (on top of the female hex pedal bolt used to attach pedals)
guess i will perhaps have to find and alternative, bit annoying as the dustup works surprisingly well and neatly. i know p1 provides cadence, but using dustup for speed would be useful.
*duotap not ‘dustup’
where are the pedal strain gauges? in the spindle end (that attaches to the crank), or more towards/in the pedal platform body.
Question to users of multiple power meters:
what are you using to record power data from multiple power meters?
I’m using either multiple head units (which is not the most convenient way because of charging and operating multiple units, and requires converting all the data from .fit to .csv) or the WASP (which isn’t optimal either, because of two things to charge, and, a not absolutely reliable iOS app – crashes, sometimes swaps data columns), I think this is similar a to what Ray is doing.
The IpWatts app running on an Android smartphone with built-in ANT, connecting to (up to) 4 power meters and writing directly to .csv could be the most elegant solution at this moment. It doesn’t seem to record cadence from all power meters though. Anyone here who has tried that combination?
Multiple head units. just make sure to start and stop at the same time.
Now the big question: is there a better way to compare multiple .FIT files? Excel is so cumbersome for this. Right now, I have to:
(1) export each .FIT file to a .CSV file,
(2) open each one in Excel and strip out the header section and extra columns
(3) review each file for bad data
(4) add a column for 30s average power and create a formula for that based on the power column
(5) create a graph from each 30s average power column from each .CSV file
Major pain in the **s. It would be much nicer to just pull in 2-3 .FIT files directly, tell the program what data I want to compare and degree of smoothing, and get a graph.
Yeah, you’ll have seen all my recent power posts are using some custom app that makes the comparison instant from .FIT files (and .TCX/.GPX). Same goes for 30s/etc graphs.
I’m hoping later this fall to open up that app to others.
Ken and Ray, thanks for the replies.
I am seeing that my left pedals (both, P1 and Vector) track well with my crank-based meters (Pioneer, P2M), but for whatever reason my right pedals do not, so I also “need” to include percentage data in my comparisons. The only way I found so far is exporting from GC to GC json, deleting unneeded header info and then converting to CSV, which is another incovenience in addition to just getting and synchronizing the data from many headunits.
Would anybody know a method to directly export power AND PERCENTAGE from .fit to csv?
Ray, will your app support percentage and possibly other metrics as well? (I’ve actually checked your sample data and they don’t show left-right issues, so you might not need that feature though.)
Meanwhile, I’ve also tried the IpWatts app on a borrowed Android tablet a few times, and so far it has been reliable. I’d say definitively worth giving a try if someone already owns an Android phone with built-in ANT. Sample data here: link to analyticalcyclist.wordpress.com
Yeah, it’s something (very) high on the list for adding into the tool shortly.
If anyone has used these with lithium AAA and/or eneloop rechargeable batteries can you comment on the battery life?
Thanks!
ok, I wont worry too much about that right now. thanks guys for the messages. I got my pedals today, only opened them to hold them :P need to wait til after work :( anyways they feel so solid, little hefty but heavy duty in a good way.
so I wont be getting any outdoor riding in until this weekend so i’ll be on a resistance trainer, the ones with small skinny roller you screw to rear tire. Its a 5+ yr old thing but it works. so my question is basically can I turn off the gps on my garmin head unit and start training or do I have to setup a training routine and import to head unit?
is there 3rd party ant+ software I can use on laptop or phone (android) that is recommended? or just base everyone from my garmin power? I guess it would be cool to see LIVE numbers on a laptop, does that exist and free?
is there free power analysis I can download my workout to view afterwards?
aside from indoor training, for outdoor riding I saw an option for bike weight…when including this im assuming it influences power output correct? if so, should I weigh my bike with all my gear on it? bike pump, lights, filled up 2 water bottles?
thanks in advance!
Golden Cheetah. It imports your fit files, you can train with it if you have some sort of roller to put your bike in. It is open source and some clever people behind it. Yes, it takes some time to understand all the metrics and graphs, but I think its a great tool. BTW: you can also download Poweragent from PowerTap website and that is also free. Somehow I prefer GC, but other users may prefer Poweragent. Test both and see what you like most.
Wow, that’s a lot of questions! I’ll try to answer most of them.
(1) just turn off the GPS and ride
(2) a bunch of software can use an ANT+ stick and record, display, and set up your workouts based on power. Frans mentioned Golden Cheetah, which is amazing for analytics but quite complicated. There’s also PerfPro Studio (great for basic workouts), Zwift (great for game like experience), and Trainer Road (great for structured workout library). But you’ll need an ANT+ stick to use any of them effectively. If you had access to a trainer that can control your resistance (e.g. Computrainer, Kickr, etc) then you’d have the best possible combination.
(3) for power analysis, I use TrainingPeaks and WKO 4, but they aren’t free. Golden Cheetah is free, but complicated. If you have a Garmin, Garmin Connect is pretty lacking but can get you basic metrics.
(4) I usually ignore bike weight. Yes, there’s a difference in watts based on the weight of bike, but your head unit ultimately displays the watts your putting out regardless of the weight. A heavier rider plus a heavy bike means more watts and thus more watts get displayed. You may need your bike weight if you want to get really picky about calculating watts per kilogram, but I never find that a useful metric while I’m riding.
What would be the difference in watts? Any powermeter measures the power that you put out, regardless of your own weight or the bike weight. A watt is a watt, the influence of weight will mostly count when climbing: the more weight, the more watt you need to have the same speed of somebody who is lighter. In general a bigger person will have bigger muscles and therefor more power, but he/she needs that to compensate for the extra weight of being bigger.
If you have an ANT+ stick on you pc or laptop: you can train with a lot of programs. My favorite atm is Zwift. Fun to do and an hour passes by quickly with a good workout. And I train with an old Tacx Vortex that does not support FE-C, but with the P1’s it just works fine/
And yes, Golden Cheetah has quite a learning curve, on the other hand that learning curve helps you to understand the power and how you can get the most out of it.
But first: start to ride, collect data and save the fit files well, so you can reuse them for later analysis; in the meantime have fun!
Ya lol, I thought I had time tonight to do a 30 min test but after inspecting closer the right pedal cap/side lid on the inner axle didn’t look like it was fully sealed, not quite sure if this will effect water ingress. This is where the green light is blinking.
I emailed customer service to see what I should do if anything.
I did like a quick 1 min spin just to see power reading yay it shows up. it ranged from 100 to 500w I’d like to see what I could max on these, fun. Ya regardless of weight calculations it was the same standing and sitting pedaling same cadence. Is this correct?
I’m not able to see individual pedal power, guess cuz I’m using Garmin 500?
I’d have to say the bearings in these sound rough and bit worried for future…I had shimano over 5 years, entry level ones and still spin smoothly and freely by finger. When trying to clip in I have to manually rotate pedal to snap in. Normally weight of back of pedal would rotate it down making easy to clip in on the go. No biggie but not fond of the rough bearings…
The Edge 500 does support left/right power (add the Power Balance field), just ensure your Edge 500 is fully updated. There’s no differences in power output when seated versus standing, assuming the output your exerting on them is the same.
The unit should be totally silent. So if you’re hearing anything, something is wrong.
Frans,
You’re saying exactly the same thing as I am. A heavier bike riding up a hill requires more power. There’s your difference in power. I don’t think that the head units calculate different power based on the weight of your bike. I don’t know why they even include a field for it– they might just as well ask what color your bike is. The weight of your bike may be relevant for calculating watts per kilogram (assuming it knows your bodyweight) but that isn’t terribly useful for me at least on the road.
I believe the theory behind including bike weight was actually for calorie reasons, but I’ll ask (meaning, to slightly increase calorie numbers for a heavier back). As you noted, it has zero impact on power recordings.
Rider weight would also be useful if you want to display W/kg (or W/lbs but who does that?).
Just as a minor update for those seeing spikes, I talked with PowerTap about it today.
They continue to narrow down what’s causing it – which seems to be fully centered on an ANT+ communication snag occurring between the pedals and the head units and a misalignment in picking up packets. It’s only impacting Garmin head units, as the PowerTap Joule units have a 3,000w cap put in (basically just throws away values above that). As does Training Peaks (fwiw). Garmin head units do not have a cap (nor does Garmin Connect), hence why it’s showing up there.
While they could ‘easily’ solve the problem by just adding a software limiter cap into the P1 via firmware update (i.e. 3,000w as well), they noted they really want to figure out the root of the communications issue – rather than just making it go away easily.
Nonetheless, they’ve confirmed that themselves, Garmin, and ANT+ are all working to try and figure out why it’s happening and the best course to resolve it. They aren’t yet sure who (if anybody) is at fault. However, they are sure that it’s an easy P1 firmware update via the app (which was submitted to Apple for approval late last week), once they do figure out which product is best suited to resolve it.
Thanks for the update! If buying a Joule for the next few months is what it takes to get nice clean data from my P1s, I’m fine with that. The P1s are so revolutionary– everything I waited years and years for the Metrigear (then Vector) to be. I love both Garmin and Powertap and trust that, soon enough, these headaches will be a distant memory.
Just got off phone with pt. They are super nice and helpful. They said this is the first time they see this problem. problem or not they wanted it to be on the safe side so I’ll have to send back for a new pair. Yay? Kinda disappointed though of course. I hope they will update me if it was a manufacturer hiccup. The cap just looks warped…gotta wait yet again :-\
I had the opportunity to test the P1s with a Garmin Fenix 2 yesterday.
It was a short test but apparently everything works fine, including a prompt for crank length (mine is standard so I didn’t need to change it, but it’s there).
For what it’s worth, I had just received my Powertap Joule GPS+ (also from Clever Training) since I had to replace my Edge 800 (its touch screen quit working after something seeped below it, 4th time it happened to me in has many years). I tested it too and it’s a reasonable unit. You can now disable auto-start BTW :-)
I also liked that it handles multiple power meters gracefully (you get a list and decide the one you want to use).
All Garmin units suck with this (multiple units detected message).
I haven’t checked much of the data yet. I managed to crash (pedal strike in a corner) 1 mile from home on the way back. Doh! I’m banged up (5 cracked ribs and a very sore hip) and I hope I didn’t damage the pedal…
I don’t know that I’ll have an oppportunity to check ahead of my upcoming bike trip. :-( Oh well.
Ray, I did a 30 min spin in 2 segments. First one was with a workout I planned then I stopped it cuz it was incorrectly planned…Then I just recorded with the start button with gps off. It stayed in pause and didn’t capture data. Only when I go back to workouts it would record, why is this or am I missing something here?
I found my avg was 200ish watts…my left leg a few percent higher than right. Thanks for the input from before cuz I found the balance display.
Hi, I have Garmin Edge 520 and now I’m waiting to get my P1 pedals. Any idea when the update for edge520 is coming? My crank length is 175mm and now I’m worried that I can’t use my new pedals when they arrive.
It sounds like a few days away. But again, you can simply post your Settings.fit file to the Garmin Forums, and they’ll tweak the file there for your crank length (just need it done once). So today it’s an annoyance, but not a show-stopper.
Hi. You discussed on your BePro review regarding the settling in period for pedals, i.e. 3-4 rides before you can be confident in the reading. Do these P1s present the same issue?
I’m likely to be switching between various bikes once a week so if it’s going to take 3-4 rides to become accurate I will only ever have duff data!
+1 to above question
No, I never saw it have issues with settling like other units. I’ve done a lot of peddle swapping lately, just for fun, and it seems to be spot on from the start (I’d still recommend simply doing one quick sprint at the start of the ride just to ensure the pedal is tight).
I received my pedals 2 days ago, pretty happy with them after 2 rides. Installation is super easy. However the PowerTap iOS app crashes every time I try to connect to the P1’s via bluetooth so I can’t check for a firmware update (Garmin says its v2.1 now). I am running iOS 9 on an iPhone 6.
Other observations:
1) Coming from Shimano SPD-SL, the cleats are smaller, much less walkable and do not have as much adjustment range on the shoe (I’m at the limits now). 2) They are also just Wellgo Look Knock-offs, not some custom PT design. Amazon has the same exact cleats for about $13. 3) Pedal stack height is 5mm greater, so I had to raise my seat. 4) Compared to my Stages PM, the P1s report wattage about 2% higher. This works out to about a 10W raise in my FTP. Totally within normal variance, and it could also be that my right leg is slightly stronger so the Stages is under-reporting power (LR balance for 2 P1 rides was 48.5.) 5) I’ve not seen any data spikes in my 2 rides (total of about 63miles).
Same thing for me. I had success by using the Default Bike in the Bike List.
App seems to crash if you make a bike up like you should.
does anyone know if these will work with the cyclo mio 505 hc (the albatross around my neck)
Ray,
Any idea which is the right Garmin forum to have the settings.fit file updated? I’ve only been able to find a thread under the Edge 1000 related to this. I’ve got the 520 and was hoping there may be a separate thread.
Cheers.
That same thread is good for any devices, so feel free to post there and they’ll tweak and send back.
FYI to folks: Garmin released a FR920XT Beta firmware which adds in the ability to tweak your crank length for the P1’s now. It’s available here: link to www8.garmin.com
As always, it’s beta, so it’s always possible your microwave could blow up, your shower flood, or something else. Usual warnings apply.
Typically things in beta last a few days or up to a week or two before becoming final. My understanding is the Edge 520 firmware is in internal beta right now, and should be out shortly (unclear if it’ll be public beta or just straight to full release). I believe the Edge 1000 is then trailing that.
As noted previously, you can always post to the Garmin Forums on the Edge 1000/P1 thread in there to get an updated Settings.fit file until that point in time.
Hi Ray
Absolutely terrific review as always. It’s prompted me to take the plunge into power, a plunge I would have taken with Vector if they weren’t weight limited! I’d have gladly bought them through CT by way of support for the work you do but the shipping and import tax to the UK would be cost-prohibitive.
I was wondering if the P1’s will provide the necessary data for VO2 calculations on the Edge 520?
Cheers
520 does VO2?
Wonder if 810/510 will get this update?
How does it calculate that exactly?
Yes, the P1’s provide the data (just a power meter is needed for Cycling VO2). The Edge 520 & 1000 both will get/have this (as does the 920XT & Fenix3). The Edge 510/810 aren’t planned to get those features.
You also need a heart strap and set your heart range (it will default if you don’t which is OK but perhaps not the most accurate). Don’t have the 520, 920xt and Fenix already calculate, 1000 currently doesn’t but sounds like from Ray it’s coming which would be nice.
As an owner of a Garmin Edge 810 who is also a very serious potential buyer of the Powertap P1 pedals, I just can’t pull the trigger until I am confident the power spike issue has been resolved. I’ve heard enough complaints here and in other forums (including a friend who is having this exact issue), that I won’t buy until it is fixed. That is bad news for Powertap because in the meantime I may be swayed to purchase a different power meter. Please keep us updated here if and when Powertap and Garmin can resolve this issue because this is currently a deal breaker for me. As the product stands right now, nobody can ride a race and adhere to a power plan when these types of massive spikes exist. The data is instantly irrelevant during a ride and that is obviously unacceptable.
I’m not having power spikes.
people come here to complain – well i have a good product.
Here is my last big ride profile. have a look.
link to connect.garmin.com
Thanks Gabe & glad to hear the pedals are working for you. From what I understand the power spike issue seems to be happening mostly to people using a Garmin headunit, which you are not. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the problem is on the Garmin side just because I’ve had so many problems with my Edge 810 over the years with it shutting itself down or locking up, that it makes perfect sense that Garmin would be the culprit. I just hope Powertap has some luck working with them because Garmin is typically slow to react and oftentimes not very technically savvy!
i also was using the edge 810 in tandem – let me upload that for you – i acutally don’t have problems with it either.
the issue i have is when i dont change my watch to show crank length that matches both the fenix 3 and 810 thus power data gets wonky
I had only two spikes and since I’m using the Garmin HR strap instead of the PowerCal I haven’t had a single spike; my idea was that perhaps the power signal from the Powercal could interfere with the readings. Besides: the spike can easily be corrected in programs like Golden Cheetah (the edit mode can even detect the spikes) I have now 18 hours of riding (could have been more without a cold) and even with what I know now, would buy them again. Pedals are well build, easy install and I have no doubt that the quirks will be solved with a firmware update; confident of the service by Powertap.
Hey Scott,
If you don’t want to buy the pedals then that’s fine, but personally I wouldn’t not be buying them because of concerns regarding the power spike. I have ridden mine for around 49 hrs, and have seen only 1 power spike in that time, which was instantly obvious and upset my ride TSS and NP. I knew roughly what they both were before the spike, so just pressed the lap button, started a new lap and monitored NP and TSS for that Lap, so I still knew pretty much where I was. I am sure Powertap will fix the power spike issue (I believe they have told Ray there is an easy fix, but they are working to find a better fix), but even if I knew that it wouldn’t ever be fixed I’d still buy the P1’s.
following feedback received from Powertap after reporting spikes issues on both fenix3 and edge1000:
You —
recorded data on both garmin edge1000 and fenix 3
P1 pedals gave powerspikes of 58000 watt on both devices
James H
We have seen this issue with the pedals and competitors head units. We will be releasing a firmware update that should correct this issue. However, in the meantime, you can import your activity files into our Power Agent software to view the correct data without the spikes
You —
ok looking forward to this update, scheduled for this month? or no release date yet?
James H
Unfortunately, we do not have a release date yet, but hopefully within the next few weeks. We are testing a beta version currently, so as long as that passes testing we will push the release out
Hi Ray,
I have a quick question regarding the bearings in the p1’s.
I have waited for weeks for stock to arrive & I finally received my order on Monday. However, I noticed the bearings in the right pedal felt a bit rough. The left pedal was silky smooth, it was just the right pedal. The store I bought them from asked me to return them & the replacement order arrived today. Much to my dismay the right pedal feels exactly the same as the first set (different serial number, so I know they did swap them). The left is silky smooth whereas the right feels like the bearings are catching slightly.
I am waiting for a response from powertap but was wondering if you noticed this? Should it feel like this?
Given that these have to be sent over to the US for servicing I want to make sure they are right before I use them & can’t return them to the store.
Thanks
Hey Nebula-
Yeah, I’d just wait for PowerTap (directly) to come back to you with a solution. Definitely not normal.
My just arrived today, left smooth, right a little rough. What happened to yours?
After pouring over the reviews here and trolling the various forums, I just pulled the trigger on 2 pairs (one for the wife and I). Purchased through Clever Training using the DCR VIP program. Amazing offer. Thank you Ray.
Thanks for the support David – I appreciate it!
I’ve used these pedals for a handful of rides now and Ray is spot. These things hit every bullet for me. Simple, easy to install, easy to move to other bikes and accurate. I used to have a stages that was good, but these are superior in my opinion. Right now I’m running them on my carbon Specialized Diverge.
Garmin 1000 Firmware
Changes made from version 5.00 to 5.10:
Added the ability to edit crank length for PowerTap P1 pedals.
Nice catch. I’ve updated the compatibility table. Thanks!
And it sounds like the Edge 520 update will be out next week as well. Good stuff.
Ray:
Thanks for ALL of the great insight you provide across the board.
I’ve been following your power meter posts for a while. I ordered my P1s from Clever on Tuesday and took them on their first of many rides last night. The ease of installation and set up was just as you described and the pedals worked great with my Edge 800. Except for inserting the batteries and telling my Edge to look for a power meter, the installation process was exactly the same as replacing a set of badly worn Look cleats and threading on a new set of pedals.
Has anyone found any cheaper “less float” cleats that work with the P1s?? I’m finding the ones shipped have so much floats that it’s hard to clip out!!
agreed – the RC7s have a lot of float which i didn’t care for. Try the RC0’s.
They do have a smidge of float but work much butter imo.
Best place to buy it is from amazon. $9 – link to amazon.com
i think it’s robbery that powertap sells them for $20 lol
thanks, but I am in the UK and they won’t ship them to me and don’t appear on amazon.co.uk
Greg – there are several versions of these rebranded but look the same and say RC0 on the cleat.
it’s the same one that power tap sells.
Try ebay as well.
Greg, I just bought from here: link to jejamescycles.co.uk
Cheers!
ok, got the new pedals. there wasn’t anything wrong with the first ones i had, basically needed to snap back in…wasn’t that easy for me though which i tried.
anyways, i got to do a 26 mile ride and too have experienced the spike at around 56k, this happened almost end of ride.
btw, does this ride basically go to trash bin because of this spike? im not sure if this is data i should try to base numbers on. does this mess up the averages or should i import to golden cheetah to delete that or does it auto ignore those things?
i uploaded to garmin, pretty happy with the solid pink line down the middle for pedal strokes.
a complaint however, coming from shimanos, the cleats are not durable at all, they get scuffed so easily!
Jonathan,
From what others have said, you can import the ride into a tool like Golden Cheetah and remove that spike which will give you a more accurate representation of your power numbers. Obviously that isn’t something we should have to do and quite frankly it is a bit of a pain when it shouldn’t be necessary. My bigger complaint is when these spikes occur during a race or whenever you are trying to ride to specific power numbers, you cannot because the numbers are skewed. Others have mentioned you can manually lap at the point you notice a spike, but more often than not, most people will never notice when it happens unless they stare obsessively at their head unit the entire ride.
I have faith that this will get fixed eventually, but if it is as easy of a fix as everyone seems to think, it probably should have been done by now. I will continue to wait patiently.
Hey Scott,
I tried it with TP, it works, less hassle. This is the on signed up for free, its not premium. Although I think they gave me a trial 7 day but will auto change back. I’m wonder if this will effect the removal of spikes after trial is over?
On Golden Cheetah, I see there’s a ‘train’ is this where i can link the P1 to get live readings while riding indoors? I cant seem to get the software to find them. Any tips on this? Under ‘add device’ it says has 3 options; 1, native ant+, 2,racermate and 3, tacx? What is this?
Thanks :)
I’ve had the spike happen 10 times with three different sets of pedals. It doesn’t invalidate your entire file–it’s generally just a second or two of a very high spike that will alter the calculations for your entire ride in terms of TSS, NP and average power and the like. Since the 920XT bases your VO2 max off of your power–then any of the Garmin devices that do these functions can get screwed up with that file because you will have super human power readings for a given 20 minute + ride.
If you use Training Peaks, that app automatically scrubs out the false data so there is nothing to do. If you use Garmin–you can’t adjust the file within Garmin itself. You can upload the file to Golden Cheetah and use the option they have to ignore spikes (you have to manually tell it where that threshold should be). You can then output the file and re-load into Garmin (and delete your old). Lots of extra steps, but you can do it.
During a ride with a Garmin head unit you can set one of your screens to show current lap power average, lap power NP, etc. and anytime you get a spike that screws up the overall file you can hit the lap button and go from there (again, scrubbing out the spike after the ride). At least if you are racing you can work off of a fresh lap reading.
Jim
Regarding the spikes, just to add a little more to the discussion, I’ve been riding almost 4 weeks now with the P1s and out of 24 rides 7 have had these random spikes (that’s roughly 30% of the rides). NP/TSS/IF is screwed up and some cases also 20 min avg power calculation by Garmin. I use Strava mostly (and TP), so I have not much of a problem, since there the spikes are corrected automatically, but would be good of course to have correct data on the actual Garmin device and web as well. I’m not going to be bothered with manually editing the file every time there is a spike.
I also caught one of the spikes on a ride when it happened — the power reading dropped to 0 and I thought the connection must have dropped (or powermeter battery died etc), but then it came back seconds later showing huge numbers for a moment and then all good again, like nothing happened — so it seems to be, I’m guessing, some transmission error with ANT+/Garmin for some reason.
There is only 1 spike per ride every time, I’ve not seen more than 1 spike per ride, but of course one is enough. It can happen any time during the ride, totally random.
Here are 2 examples of rides with spikes on garmin:
link to connect.garmin.com
link to connect.garmin.com
Well, to be more accurate the data is bit screwy on Strava as well though, since it seems they just have a cap of 2400 W set, so the data is almost accurate, except for the small spikes that still go to 2400 W, so it does mess up the power curve a bit in the 1s region, not a big thing though, but annoyance still.
I’m in the same boat. On average every other ride I get a power spike (up to 50-60kW). The data is unusable with golden cheetah without removing manually the datapoint. I will contact powertap during the week if I can remember.
i just had a similar spike occur
what is Powertap’s response?
it dropped to zero – nothing showed up then a massive #
Response/detail here: link to dcrainmaker.com
Hi, I have my first test drive with P1 pedals and Garmin Edge 520. There was one spike (28871 watts). It last about 3 seconds. When the spike came, long low downhill was just started and my speed was greasing up.
Is there any other sites where I can whipe that spike off than golden cheetah? My Mac did not want to download golden cheetah.