(Quick FYI: For users with useless computers, I’ve compilated a list of resources to get you halfway-functional again. Cheers!)
When Shimano acquired Pioneer’s assets a bit over a year ago, I found it hard to see how this would end well. But Shimano…congratulations, you’ve outdone yourself! Even I couldn’t have predicted the flaming dumpster fire that this is shaping up to be. And this fireworks show is just getting started, you just wait till the end of the month.
Despite Shimano’s initial claims to both continue selling and supporting Pioneer’s product lineups, we all knew that just wasn’t going to work out long term. There was little reason to do so. Shimano had their own power meter brand and products (even if they are inaccurate), and Pioneer’s more advanced pedaling metrics didn’t follow any industry standards and weren’t widely supported on most web platforms. And that ignores what to do about a bike computer and their training log site.
At the time Shimano announced the acquisition, they were at least clear that the Pioneer Cyclo-Sphere web platform would continue to be available until they launched their own platform. However, instead of doing things in a measured and methodical manner, they’ve decided to burn the house down. Essentially, they’ve given all Pioneer users notice (or, an ultimatum) that the platform will no longer be functional on June 18th (next week), and that units will cease working after that. While a supposed new platform will come online June 30th, your bike computer will stop working in a slew of ways depending on what you ate for breakfast.
For some users however, that’s the least of their issues. You see, for those lucky individuals living in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Taiwan – you’ve been told to simply throw the darn thing away. It’s entirely useless in just over 8 days. In the span of less than a month you went from a perfectly functional advanced bike computer to the legitimate definition of a paperweight.
But let’s not get ahead of ourselves, let’s outline this flaming turd in even more detail.
Trying to Explain:
I’ll be honest, my head hurts. I’ve been trying to decode this fiasco of an e-mail and website all morning. And I’m frankly not sure I’ve got it all untangled. Which mirrors the slew of e-mails I’ve had from users over the last two weeks also trying to make sense of it all. Typically, Shimano is a company that excels at PR management. They’ve got people for each region and product line, and manage communications very succinctly.
But this time around, Shimano assigned the most inexperienced person they could to craft the communications. Unfortunately, that person wasn’t available. So they just grabbed someone that walked into the nearest 7-Eleven to write up the most confusingly bad e-mail seen in the sports tech realm in quite some time. Though, let’s not disparage that poor 7-Eleven customer, as undoubtedly even they could have done a better job than this.
(Side note: Yes, Japan has 7-Eleven’s. In fact, they have more 7-Eleven’s than anywhere in the world. Seriously, there are some 21,143 7-Eleven’s in Japan, a total of 30% of the world’s 7-Eleven inventory.)
First off, let’s start with the e-mail. In fact, I’m gonna use this e-mail as my entire post, largely because it’s the only way you’ll be able to understand how bad this is. To begin, as a registered Cyclo-Sphere user, I received this ‘Second notice’ e-mail. However, I have zero record of ever receiving a ‘First notice’ e-mail. Given I saw virtually zero complaints after the supposed May 24th First Notice e-mail, I’m going to guess it actually never went out correctly (which, would be on-brand here).
They start off saying they’re sending it to all users, even if you were a user that didn’t want to receive such a message. So much so, that they even end on telling you to: “note that.”
As in, ‘Note dat, b!tche$!’
After that initial salutation, it continues:
It’s here, with the wording “who live in regions” they passive-aggressively slap the fine folks living in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Taiwan. Except, at this juncture in the e-mail you don’t realize it yet. In fact, it’s never mentioned at all in this e-mail. Nor is it casually mentioned at this point that everyone’s bike computer will be useless for a minimum of 12 days. That’ll come later.
They then go straight into the ‘Transfer Schedule’. We’ve skipped over any other pleasantries here. Conveniently placed as a formatting error on a single line, you might misread ‘Cyclo-Sphere Terminated on June 30th, 2021’, the same day they launch Shimano’s new web service.
But you’d be very incorrect if you read it that way. The correct way to read it is as follows:
June 18th, 2021: Burn the house down, your bike computer is useless.
June 18th – 30th 2021: Shrug. Don’t ride. Have you considered Yabusame?
June 30th, 2021: We’re gonna launch something new baby!
However, the above is also full of a key contradiction:
A) “Cyclo-Sphere service terminated” – does this mean the platform is dead-dead, or just half-dead?
B) I only ask because it then says “You will have until September 30, 2021 to elect whether to transfer your ride data in Cyclo-Sphere to Shimano’s new web service”
Also, it’s important to point out that nobody has seen the new ‘Shimano Web Service’. In fact, so much so that it doesn’t even have a name yet. And if we know anything about Shimano IT software projects by now, it should be properly horrible. There’s been no evidence submitted to the contrary in the last few decades. Sure, Shimano makes great hardware. But software? Oh hell no.
Nevertheless, we’ll assume they recruited some more 7-Eleven customers. Heck, maybe they should hire from 7-Eleven, clearly with 71,000 stores, certainly they must have functional software.
So, how do you transfer your precious workout data? Apparently by first navigating to and through the Shimano Privacy notice. And then, somehow magic happens. Literally, read through these steps – there’s actually no instructions on how to do this. Apparently, it’ll just happen? (Just like your bike computer will stop uploading next week – magic!).
So, let’s talk about your bike computers. Which, is handily next in the e-mail. I’ve highlighted the best parts.
Now, this is where it gets awesome. They first tell you that “details…will be provided later”. In other words, they have no idea either. They’re just hoping to figure it out before June 30th.
However, you can click on that link to find out about Shimano’s new nameless web service. Don’t worry, we most definitely will. Hang tight a second.
In the meantime, let’s recap what this means:
SGX-CA500 users: You’re effed. You just lost the easy-to-use WiFi support, get that computer and USB cable back out again!
SGA-CA600 users: Somehow, through something not yet defined, you’ll be able to upload to Shimano’s new service. But again, not till July, and you shouldn’t use your bike computer between June 18th and June 30th.
Now, what’s perplexing about this (but as expected at this point), is that a few lines later in the e-mail it says you won’t be able to update the firmware at all after June 18th. Thus, like a Black Friday sale, you should apparently run and do it now. Also, casually, you’ll lose map changing/updating too:
Of course, this directly contradicts their own site elsewhere, which conveniently skips the whole map thing.
Speaking of things you can’t or don’t want to do, that’d include downloading your workout data. Apparently you can technically do this, as they tell you to do in the e-mail:
However, once you click on the link, you get the real scoop:
Sure, if you’ve got less than 50 files, no biggie. But assuming you’re a long-time Pioneer user, you probably have a fair bit of data, which means this will be a mess. That’s somewhat Pioneer’s fault, because the interface to do this is a mess. Though, certainly, Shimano could have just offered a simple ‘Download it all’ button. Then again, ‘simple’ was very much not anywhere in this e-mail.
So let’s instead focus on the future. The positives. The brightness of opportunity of starting fresh with a blank-slate that’ll come at the end of the month.
That New Web Service:
I appreciate Shimano’s marketing honesty here.
When you follow all the various links for their “New Web Service”, as they call it, they all point here – the page shown above.
This page has a larger banner of a person typing on a keyboard looking at a blank screen (alongside a blank phone). Which appears to be precisely where Shimano is on this transition – a void of emptiness.
But fear not, if you scroll down just a smidge, you’ll find all the details thoroughly documented:
So in short…umm…it’ll be ‘easy log viewing’, all ‘at a glance’.
They literally couldn’t even make the effort to Photoshop a teaser of this supposed service into the turned-off computer screen of the user above.
Strava’s PR team can send me reams of PowerPoint slides and screenshots on adding a single random obscure new feature, but Shimano prepares to launch a grand new cycling platform after years of work, and can’t manage more than four generic bullet points?
However, it’s not clear if the void being created is more or less empty for people living outside the supported countries. See, once you click around a bit, you find this gem (note the red parts):
I wonder how the conversation went on this. Arguably – Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent New Zealand are some of Shimano’s strongest territories. And yet, they’re left out here. This isn’t a Pioneer thing, this will impact any Canadian person who accidentally and very much inadvertently considers signing up for whatever this magical platform will offer.
Mind you – this isn’t just about the platform. For people in those countries, your bike computer is a rock now. It can’t upload to anything.
But don’t worry, in Shimano’s vast 8-question long Q&A section, they’ve got you friendly Canadians covered, with the bizarrely placed “How do I punch myself in the nuts again, should I wish to do so?”
Finally, we’ll round out this entire journey with the conclusion of the e-mail. It’s here they remind you that they really don’t want to hear from you.
With that, I’ll end on a Japanese proverb that seems appropriate: “If you understand everything, you must be misinformed”
Though, some sources say that’s either a Swedish or Chinese proverb. No matter the source, sounds about right.
(Oh, and feel free to use the comments section below as a place to post solutions/workarounds/tips/etc for Pioneer users, including perhaps on how to keep using your Pioneer units. Such as if someone figures out how to convert from their on-bike computer database file structure to .FIT files.)
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I am not a Pioneer user…but does this mean the units are bricked – PM and computer? Or that there is nowhere for the data to go (Strava, Connect, etc.)? If so…I would think that some Consumer Government entities might take a dim view…more notably in the EU. But I really do not know.
here, I found a site that explains it:
link to dcrainmaker.com
The power meters support ANT+ for basic PM data, so it would still be usable with another head unit – sans the extra data (torque vector stuff). Pioneer uses a ‘private ANT+” channel for that (i.e. a non-standard ANT+ data stream that can only be read by their head units).
Not completely bricked since you can always get your data via USB and a computer and upload it that way. However, it does sound like no more updates- firmware or maps- will ever be happening.
At this point I’m kind of glad that my PM broke about 4 years ago (out of warranty) and I replaced it with something else.
Especially since shimano HQ europe is in the Netherlands (passing there every day with my Rohloff :P).
Question is; are either of those units still for sale through the normal shops in EU?, because then a class action can be considered.
Thanks for that share, Dan! I’ll read through that :)
My wahoo has been showing me advanced metrics from my pioneer meter for years.
As most Canadians, I’m left to say one thing to Shimano: “Sorry”
Is it at all legal to remove the base function – and thereby turn it in to an expensive paperweight – from a product? I can understand the issue with adding updates to old hardware, but completly killing cannot be legal?
My dad still runs with a FR310x, which still works perfectly.
Probably doesn’t count when a company is bought out by another, especially when it’s just the IP that gets purchased and not the actual company. Pioneer Power Meter Company, INC (IDK the actual name) is who would be responsible, but I’m sure the letter will arrive to an empty office building.
Class action in the making….
If I throw my 600 during a race, similar to a bottle, but do it outside the feed zone, will I be fined as well? It’s not a bottle or a food wrapper, so I’m seeking clarification. #AskingForPisssedOffCyclists
First, this looks like Google translate of a letter in Japanese. I guess the us marketing team was too busy to help here …
There’s also question on other countries that are neither on the supported not the unsupported list. Judging from the rest of the process, I wouldn’t have high hopes for countries that are not specifically mentioned. Maybe they will be in some future release.
The fantastic “new web service” website is much clearer on that. The new service will be available in the US, Japan and the EU. The rest? Someone famous had a descriptive for those countries.
Hmmm I wonder when they will be launching the new Dura Ace…
Thousands of productive & happy miles with Shimano products, but I sometimes wonder if they perceive items that use electricity in the same manner as the rest of the world. I think their bits with voltage are more like birthday parties that punctuate their celebration of the sport but aren’t necessarily intended to be a long-term part of the experience.
That being said, I’ll still upgrade to electronic shifting someday and take my chances.
Try SRAM. I switched from Di2 to eTAP and am happy. Maybe get a new bike with the new groupset? Might as well…
Ask anyone who needs an 11-speed E-Tap front derailleur how they feel about SRAM’s commitment to product support.
The “new web service” is also announced as compatible with Garmin and Wahoo devices. I’m certain there will be a large inrush of customers happy to *finally* have a reliable place to keep their Garmin data. Not Canadians, but many for sure.
I have no issues with Garmin Connect and it is – apart from the ransomware attack last spring – pretty reliable for me. So I’m not interested. But for wahoo people it could be nice to finally have a web interface? ;)
But you can export your Garmin data to Strava, Ridewithgps, SRAN axs, … automagically.
Good thing Amazon Prime Days are 6/21 and 22….
UGH
Pour out a little liquor for your homies…put it beside the MotoActv, Basis, and Microsoft 2 Band, etc.
Ray, can you site any aquisition in the Fitness Tech industry that successfully continued on with new products, and legacy support? Time will tell with Fitbit/Google, but I can’t think of one instance where a large company bought an up and comer to get into the market, or grab new tech, and it worked out well.
Garmin has a good track record, but they buy tech that complements their own (Firstbeat, solar charging, IERCC, etc), not direct competitors.
And don’t forget Garmin’s acquisition of Tacx, which seems to have gone off without a hitch.
Agree, sports tech acquisitions can be messy – though, that’s honestly like most acquisitions globally.
Of course, as consumers, we only see what we want to see in acquisitions. For example, take Fitbit and Pebble. From a consumer standpoint, Fitbit killed off Pebble. But reality-wise: Pebble was about to be closed up anyway, they were heavily in debt with no viable path forward. At least in this case, those employees got jobs.
I think most of SRAM’s acquisitions have actually gone fairly well – such as them acquiring Quarq to begin with. Sure, people might disagree with some of the chainring compatibility things long term, but that’s pretty minor. The PowerTap acquisition is I think still too early to determine that historical chapter. Let’s give it another year.
As noted in the comments above, generally speaking Garmin has a very strong acquisition history. But as also noted, they tend to acquire things they’re using already. A semi-exception being Tacx, but that’s gone well by most metrics. Support is clearly far better than before. I think most bobbles during that acquisition can be assigned more to stumbling through COVID at the same time than anything. And even then, again, that ignores many of the behind the scenes things that Garmin had to ‘Fix’ with Tacx (around manufacturing QA especially).
Wahoo’s acquisition of Speedplay, again, kinda like SRAM. While it was a bit messier and took longer (really their first major acquisition – so, kinda to be expected). I think the net resultant is good for the majority of consumers, and honestly, good for competition too. As many noted, Speedplay was a mess internally and with retailers prior. Sure, a small number of bike shops aren’t carried going forward (though, opposite, many more shops are, via being Wahoo dealers).
Ultimately, I think it’s too easy to look at one tiny aspect of an acquisition and judge the entire book by that. Things are usually far more complicated out of view.
Nokias aquisition of Withings went well ….. once the Withings guys bought it back again :-/
>And don’t forget Garmin’s acquisition of Tacx, which seems to have gone off without a hitch.
Except for Tacx teh support transferring to Garmin, and subsequently going down the drain.
And they bricked the android tacx video app for which i purchased routes and can no longer use even on the tablet i had already downloaded the smart trainer video’s. Chance i will use the new tacx subscription app – zero.
Ah MotoActv, I owned and loved that one. wiFi, BLE, Maps, Music, FM radio (FFS), notifications. Reliable and all that even (!) Before android wear was a thing. All that at a great price point. This would have been ama amazing competitor to the Garmins and Polaris. But alas Motorola STB. Although in google’s defense 1. this was not a sports tech aquisition, the bought Motorola wholesale for the IP. 2. I could never figure out what google is doing on consumer space. I think everyone knows what a fiasco Fitbit will be, bit no one feels it as acutely as Fitbit users
Was the Tacx iMagic platform burned pre or post Garmin acquisition?
I would like to point out that Japenese 7-11’s are awesome, and generally have good food. Go buy a rice ball and a beer in one, you’ll miss them forever when you’re not there.
Makes me embarrassed to own nothing but Shimano-equipped bikes.
There’s always Campagnolo 👍
I’m a long time Pioneer PM and Cyclo-sphere user but with the CA500 getting glitchy I made the move to a Garmin 530 (still using my Pioneer PM). Turns out I was precient!
Just to pile on a bit, I actually did receive both the emails with a bonus first one since the it had a sender with Japanese characters so they felt the need to correct that as well. :D
Chris, my google fu is weak. How do I calibrate my Pioneer PM with my Edge? Last time I tried, the computer didn’t seem to be able to do that.
I never bought the Pioneer computer because I’ve been running Edge computers since the 500 came out.
M
In the Sensors menu, there is a Calibrate option if you have a PM paired. Super easy to do!
Did you know that 7-Eleven not only has large presence in Japan, but the parent holding company is a Japanese one?
Seven&i Holdings: link to en.wikipedia.org
Is it me or are Shimano looking like they’re taking their customers for granted? It could be easily argued that their bike products are falling behind in terms of innovation and quality. Even the new Dura Ace is rumoured to be a semi-wireless solution, their power meters are rubbish and their wheels are nothing special. Now they’re dumping a load of independently minded customers who will no doubt now be bad mouthing Shimano for years.
Way to go Shimano!
Groupsets still kill it. Pro parts and tools are decent of not hugely innovative.
Suunto: Look we’ve annoyed a shed load of long standing customers with our platform upgrade!
Shimano: Hold my beer!
Why don’t you just call it shitmono. I am that 7/11 customer who wrote the memo 📝 to all of the customers and I was never paid. I was dropped like an ugly girl friend.
This should be good for Garmin sales, and to a lesser extent, Campagnolo and SRAM.
I really love my Pioneer PM and related computer 500.
A warning to all the owners: for the PM to transmit regular ANT+ signal together with the specific higher frequency Pioneer one, you must specifically activate this option in the head unit . So do it now before it’s too late…
I would assume the head unit will still work and communicate with the power meter after The Big Kill. It’s “just” that the data will be stuck there. So you can change PM options from the head unit later.
Yes , for sure… it’s just that if you head unit stops working you will have also a dead PM. If you activate asap the “normal” ANT+ then at least there is some sort of risk mitigation…
You can flip the Pioneer PM from Private ANT+ to regular ANT+ by pressing reset button next to the battery.
Long time happy Shimano user (all bikes are with Shimano Ultegra/Dura Ace)
Long time happy Pioneer user (CA-600 and 3 bikes with Pioneer Power Meters)
Very happy with both – compine my 2 favorite bike brands = all shit show!
You can only shake your head at this point. There is a little more information on Pioneers Cyclesport Japan Facebook page – but it only makes you more confused from what I can read.
Ray – It would be fun if you could get someone from Shimano to comment on what the h… is going on. :-)
I will start downloading my years of training files. Been using Pioneer for 6½ year and with and average of 3-4 upload a week – thats only a little over 20 downloads of 50 files I need to do……
I will properly go with a Wahoo unit. They still support the Pioneer advanced metrics – even the new Bolt v2.
I think Shimano’s main issue is that they’ve been hiring people from 7-11 but the mistake is that they’re just random shoppers coming out of the store. Had they picked up the 7-11 software development team they might be in a better spot. #clarificationNeeded
i have some nice Pepple watches to sell…
Funnily enough, the quarter turn ears broke of my CA600 (for the second time) today and I vowed to finally break up with Pioneer/Shimano. Good timing I guess.
I already responded to a comment here, but I’m going to go out on a limb as not-a-lawyer and say that Shimano has no legal requirement to keep supporting the hardware, even in strict places like the EU. They bought the IP, not even the company, so if there was a party at fault it would be Pioneer. To be fair, Pioneer could have folded first, bricked everyone’s computer, and then sold the IP to Shimano. This is just the long form happening right now.
I’m not saying this should be accepted or that it’s right AT ALL, just trying to clarify the discussion from non-starters like “Class Action.”
I think you’re overlooking that it’s a requirement of internet forums that whenever something’s not right, someone has to knowingly predict a class action* within the first 5 posts to ensure the forum remains compliant.
*even if the incident occurs in a country with no such legislation.
Add just to let everyone know, this is not RICO.
Are you sure? Everybody on the Internet says it’s always the RICO.
C’mon, let’s do the RICO!
Not sure if others picked up on this, but as best I can tell wired transfer may not be an option, or you’ll at least have to do some file conversion. The log files on my Pioneer are .db (not .fit etc used by Strava and TP) . I believe this was to accommodate proprietary extra vector data on the Pioneer PMs. I wouldn’t mind doing wired uploads too much, but this will require something like .db to .CSV to .fit. I believe Cyclosphere was an important link here as part of it’s roll was to convert .db to .fit and upload to linked services. Given the tone of changes, I am very skeptical that Shimano platform will be able to perform this service.
Tempted to buy one of these fancy electronic bricks when people get frustrated to figure out why the 500 is unable to use WiFi. Probably a hardcoded URL/Cert they couldn’t redirect.
Anyone looking to sell a brick, I’m willing to trade two genuine building bricks for it.
Anyone have links to the latest/last firmware files for the SGX-600 head unit?
Same for latest/last map files?
Was there a similarly adequate article, when Garmin:
– turned off the Classic version of Connect
– disabled an activity search based on an area/map (Explore: People, Groups, Courses, Activities, Training Plans, Team Garmin)
– removed bike profiles from Forerunner series 920XT and above
Huh? Why? How on earth are any of those things even remotely like this?
Like, if you’re gonna whataboutism, at least whataboutism well.
Removing bike profiles? Oh, you mean when they added sensor pools – arguably one of the best technology things ever done in cycling head units (that everyone else then copied)?
Me thinks someone doesn’t know who you used to work for, Ray and you appear to have a really good relationship with the folks in Olathe, both of whom people either love or hate, but buying up an entire product line and then bricking it (maybe?, I dunno, I’m as confuzed as everyone else) certainly takes the cake.
Nah, random images like that don’t phase me at all.
My point was that if someone is going to whataboutism, then at least be good at it. All those examples are non-comparative, and honestly, not even valid in some cases.
Ignoring the fact that when Garmin did royally screw up Garmin Connect by firing the entire team, I wrote about it, here: link to dcrainmaker.com
I got both emails. What I wasnt clear on was whether Shimano would also be stopping firmware updates for the power meter sensors themselves also. I’m kind of expecting so.
Maybe this is a hoax.
This is exactly why I stuck with Polar’s CS600 with power
Polar is even worse than Pioneer in that there is NO WAY to access data on your Polar unit directly. You must go through their service. If you are not where you can connect to the internet, no data. If they are having server “issues”, no data. If they pull a Shimano and turn off their servers, no data forever.
I bought a Polar unit without knowing this. I did an 18-hour 400+km ride, and it wouldn’t upload to their service. It seems it was too big an upload, so the software doing the upload would time out. I contacted customer support. No reply for THREE WEEKS, and then only got something to the effect of “yeah, sorry, we suck and you’re screwed”. Lost all that data.
I would never buy a Polar product again.
Exactly! I won’t buy a device that doesn’t allow USB transfer using FIT files or a similar standard. This debacle is exactly the reason I didn’t buy the Coros Pace 2, which otherwise looked amazing.
Now if we did not know you Ray – we might think you are a tiny bit upset! :-)
There are just way too many things to moan about here, but certainly a great example on how not to do customer service.
What would it take in a firmware update to change the private ant+ channel to a standard one? – it might as well be easier to go through GDPR compliant pathways to get data out of the web-service all at once and then have a script upload them all to the new platform?
7-Eleven Fun Fact.
The stores in Hawaii are run by 7-Eleven Japan. That why we have Spam Musubi.
:)
Bet this makes Di2 users feel warm and fuzzy about the likelihood for long term support of their firmware-driven mechs.
Keeping it mechanical forever!
Worst case scenario here is just no further Di2 firmware updates. But it’s working fine now, so I don’t see that as a major issue.
My eyes started glazing over ( not your fault Ray, just stopped being able to process the unpolished turd of an email) and all I can focus on now is Japanese 7-11 Onigiri 🍙
Mmmmm, maybe 2022.
My work around for this as I could see this coming was to ditch my Pioneer PM and switch to Favero.
Also the PM’s had basically stopped working and getting any support here in Australia was nigh on in possible. Fortunately I stopped using the Pioneer website a while back, so I am not impacted too much, but still it’s pretty hopeless.
No different to when Nike retired (bricked) services for legacy Nike wearable devices.
link to nike.com
Or what Polar did with polarpersonaltrainer-hardcoded devices. My RCX5 became a brick with no alternative portal option. They only offered discounts on new Polar devices. Went with Garmin and never looked back even I was promoting and putting faith into Polar for way too long.
Though, in Nike’s case, they had stopped selling that device 3+ years prior. So, it wasn’t exactly pump and dump.
Ultimately, my annoyance here isn’t that they’re killing the platform. I get it, tech moves on.
My annoyance is *HOW* they’re killing it. There’s a million ways to do this, and they selected the dumbest and most user-unfriendly way to do it.
I remember that because I used to have RCX5 as well. However, the Polar’s “final” solution was was better (but the original communication was a bad surprise as well):
First, I received an announcement in October 2017 that the service will terminate in May 2018.
After just ten days (and many complaints including mine), Polar announced termination of the service at the end of 2019 (and improved the possibility for downloads), which gave a period of more than two years.
Although Polar’s solution was far more convenient than Pioneer/Shimano, I lost trust in the brand (partially due to first communication attempt) and moved to another brand after 20 years of using Polar.
I’m a PM user (I have 3 pioneer power meters in fact), and received both emails. One thing I couldn’t figure out is if the app will stop working. I’m assuming it will. And I’m also unsure how I can run proper diagnostics / calibrate them. :shrug:
FWIW, I received the “May 24th” email…. on May 27th (technically May 28th in Japan from where it was presumably sent). It’s attached. Got the Second Notice email as well.
This reads like a multi-day episode of “Dilbert”.
Somewhere in Shimano is a Pointy Haired Boss. Perhaps lot of them …
What if you are using a garmin?
Anyone else here trying to switch out from a SGX-CA500(connected to a pioneer PM) to a Wahoo Elemnt Bolt V2. I’m having all kinds of connectivity issues and not sure if it’s just me or if there is an issue on either the Pioneer side or the new Bolt has a bug.
Well, I’ve already reverse engineered 2 dumb proprietary protocols in the last year or so. Maybe I’ll make a go for three dumb non interoperable protocols that should not have existed or have been open.
Speaking of dumb proprietary protocols, here’s hoping for a new video from Keith on how he can crack the new Zwift/Steerzo firmware they recently released to stop people from making and using alternative steering platforms! Love it when Ray and Keith call the cycling industry out on their BS…
I can’t speak for Keith, but hang tight a bit later today from me…
As for the 7-11’s in Japan…they ROCK. They are also the only reliable place to get your money out of ATM’s over there with a USA bank account. Yeah, 7-11’s are your friends in Japan and they ROCK.
Everyone has me very excited to go to Japan and simply eat my entire trip out of 7-11’s.
(We have close friends that moved to Japan pre-pandemic, and thus we’ve been waiting to finally visit them. Maybe this winter. Bonus: I can see just how rusty my four years of high school Japanese is.)
You might be surprised to know that Japan is well known for non-7-11 food as well. McDonald’s, for example. 😂
If you’ll be riding near Kyoto, hit me up for some routes. I’m not fast, but I know all the roads well. link to strava.com
If someone is located in europe and want to sell his CA600 let me know. I don’t mind having a big paperweight :)
Seeing how the elmnt bolt family performs dropping ant signals with ease I’d rather take Pioneer head unit anytime of the day
This makes me sad really. I have a CA500, CA600 and a couple of bikes with PMs. Oh and I live in Australia.
I can’t afford to replace any of my equipment. My new routine would be to use the CA600 and then manually convert the Pioneer DB file to FIT, connect to PC, manually upload etc. The CA600 has this conversion feature for those who are interested. Just view the history, scroll way way way down to the bottom where is says “Creating a FIT File”. It creates a new folder and then you can copy while connected to a PC with USB cable.
Unfortunately I don’t see the CA500 having that FIT conversion feature, so it’s at best a museum piece. I think some other web platforms can accept the Pioneer DB files, but they are pay to use only.
More annyoying is that the Pioneer Control app will no longer be available to download. So I will need to be careful to keep the current app on my phone for making head unit changes to the CA600 from there.
Shimano if you are reading, you should have instead breathed new life into the Pioneer products, made your own PM better, made your own good quality head unit, made the products cross compatitable in the short/medium term. Instead of rewarding loyal Pioneer customers and converting them to Shimano, you have shunned them. Shame on Shimano.
Cheers,
Ben.
Wow
Few month before,
SRAM killed Powertap pedals technology.
And now,Shimano killing Pioneer .
I’m going to run out and buy one while I can still get some use out of it.
Pioneer makes radio equipment anyway. They only made these in the hopes of getting bought out and they succeeded.
Can someone post a Dropbox link (or the like) to one of the on-unit DB files, and the associated FIT file you can get from their site? Maybe we can come up with a converter program…
I just had a look on my CA500 to see what the data looks like. The .db files are all SQLite 3 files, you can easily open them using something like link to inloop.github.io.
The settings.db file has some options for local backup or enabling ADB, you might be able to get more from that if you can get that enabled. Opening the log database (which contains an activity) I see different tables for cadence, power etc so it makes it a bit ugly but I’m sure there’s someone more savvy than me that would know how to do it.
Like Ray – who literally used to do that professionally at Microsoft. :-)
I work with sqlite all the time. Like I said, if you can post a DB file and its related FIT file, I can probably build a conversion tool fairly easily. Heck, it might be a single glorious SELECT. :-D
Jeffrey is this what you need?
link to dropbox.com
Thanks, Kevin. The one from the other day is on an indoor trainer?
Jeff
Yes yesterdays is a trainer ride and the other is an outside ride.
It’s very easy to convert the DB into a GPX file (I whipped up a program to do it in about half an hour), so not all hope is lost.
It’s a bit more work to make a simple FIT file, and perhaps a lot more work to make a FIT file with all the data (the FIT file format is complex, and is named after what it gives developers).
But at the worst, it’s trivial to convert from the DB to a GPX. I wonder whether Strava would consider adding the DB file as a native upload possibility.
As a proof of concept, here’s an online tool that converts your outside-activity DB files to GPX files suitable for upload to Strava.
link to regex.info
When a DB file is uploaded to it, a GPX file downloads automatically.
It doesn’t work with indoor-trainer rides that have no location info, since GPX files require location information for each datapoint.
That’s super awesome Jeffrey – nicely done!
This is a good example of why we need a “Like” button!
Great Job, Jeffery! Thank you so much.
HERO!
Thanks Jeffrey
This posting about Pioneer and Shimano is spot on. Thanks for helping an absurd email. Not sure I will buying Shimano for next upgrade. As a long time Pioneer customer its become clear that Shimano is not a company with which I want to do business.
For those in the British Isles – the new Shimano service is supported in England, but not Scotland or Wales?
This is a beautiful mess- thanks for making us aware :)
Power meter uploading aside… but will it blend?
Sounds like the only logical use for them now.
Could a Canadian update their user address to say, Vermont, then log in using a VPN to trick them? (Will they seriously have a geofence around the site?)
Unfortunately Sram have not maintained any real support for Powertap – I see Ray says give it another year before deciding and fair enough. I would say that we don’t need the full year, perhaps he knows something we don’t.
Maybe it is just the raw deal we get in Australia for most things, but there is no service centres anymore, no source of parts and the App is dead. I have spoken to Sram folks in Melbourne and they said nope, sorry, can’t help.
Would be nice if there was some kind of industry standard (or legal requirement) that meant that support must be provided for a reasonable amount of time.
The Wahoo guys and girls have added the advanced pedaling metrics to the Elemnt Bolt computer.
link to dcrainmaker.com
So not sure how long the metrics would still be available and compatible with the Shimano webservice.
One thing to note though. This is not working with the new Elemnt Bolt V2. There are some comments on this in the discussion section of the Elemnt Bolt V2 review. Hoping they fix it soon…cuz mine is having issues and won’t work at all in Pedal Monitor mode.
While the Wahoo computers can display the force vectors, I don’t think they are included in the fit file. I don’t think the FIT format supports it. I exchanged email with Wahoo for about a year after the initial announcement but they never ironed out uploading the pedaling metrics so I bought a CA600. The CA600 can output a FIT file via USB but I don’t see any evidence that the force vectors are included. The only power related data seems to be Power and L/R balance.
Well 3 days away of cyclosphere being shutted down and no word coming from Shimano about it????
Kinda cool I gess. By the way cycling news spotted new shimano 12s drivetrain with the his new powermeter, and seeing the pictures I didn’t notice any magnets at all, so I wonder how are they going to calculate the vectors.
It will be nice if Ray could provide any insights about all this stuff.
Yup you hit it right on the button. I was pissed when Pioneer sold to Shimano and gutted when these emails came out. As a Canadian I’m used to being treated like a minor market by corporations but this really does take the cake.
And down Cyclo-Sphere went:
Part of me believed cooler heads would prevail and they wouldn’t actually shut down the website before an alternative was available. That part of me was wrong. :(
Exactly. I did firmware update by June 18. Let’s hope July 1 shimano has their shit together and screenshot tutorial us to work our cs600 wireless with their new platform
They said in lad6t email cs600 and wahoo and garmin all will work wireless with their new platform as long as u did firmware update before june18
Training Assist file location – Does anyone know if training assist files can be copied from SGX-CA500 to SGX-CA600? I created several new menus late last night that were uploaded to my CA500 but they failed to upload to the CA600. I have browsed the folders on both devices using a windows laptop but cannot find the files.
What a clu$ter F&%k! I never received any of the emails people mentioned.
I have a Pioneer Power Meter and really like it. But I had a weird experience today. I rode a hard two hour ride and the power meter reported that my L/R power split was 91%/9% and my average power was 87 watts. That is crazy!
Could this be related to what Shimano is doing? Or do you think something else going on? Tx
Could it be that your right side battery is empty?
Your cs600 is dead for wireless. U needed the latest firmware update by June 18
What is the latest version of CA-600 firmware? mine is 20191203.03.79. That was the latest i found a few weeks ago. Did Shimano update it to a newer version? Firmware can be found in Setting->System->Firmware. Please post what version you have.
Yep I am on that version and that is listed as the latest version here:
link to pioneerelectronics.ca
Looks like anyone with this firmware should not worry. The latest firmware was from 2019 for the ca600
Email from Pioneer not received. I ride a CA600 and missed the firmware deadline. Any suggestions or workarounds?
You wont be able to ever use cs600 with shimano new service. needed that firmware update
U will have to use cable and get fit file to pc then to strava
I just did a ride with my SGX-CA600 and then realised that all this happen. Anyhow I managed to find a way to upload to Strava.
1. On the CA600 goto History.
2. Scroll to the bottom and you will find “Create a FIT File”
3. Attach to a computer and download the file and upload to Strava
Much preferred the wireless upload that I had previously.
I am hoping Shimano provide better integration in July!!!
TIP: On the CA600 after completing and saving a ride you will already be in the History menu.
1. Press UP button 3 times
2. Press SELECT on Creating a FIT File
3. When you get home, connect to a computer and upload the file.
A comment about this with respect to the DB-to-GPX converter site that I mentioned in a previous comment, a FIT file is superior to a GPX file in that it can contain *much* more data (pedal metrics among much else). Also, a FIT file can represent an indoor-trainer activity, while a GPX can’t.
Lucas
If you didn’t do firmware update by June 18 you will not be able to use new shimano platform
It only works in latest firmware update prior to june 18
You missed the emails
So yes you can upload from history on cs600 thru cable into your pc then upload that fit file
I did the firmware update .let’s see how shimano instructs cs600 users how to reconfigure to upload wireless to their new platform
They sent a 3rd email that was clear. It will allow wireless from cs600 wahoo and garmin thru a screen shot tutorial
Thanks or the suggestion which may be useful for others not uptodate. Yep I was already on the latest version before this happened.
Once attached to a computer, how do I download the FIT File from my CA600 unit?
Just came back from ride and my bike computer would not sync. Went to pioneers website which says it’s under maintenance. Thanks for the tip on the tif file conversion.
Shimano really is pissing on a lot of pioneer fans. Shame on You Shimano.
I’m already feeling the effects. I’m no longer able to send data to pionner’s cyclesphere. I imagined I would be able to open files on my pc and at least send to strava, but no! Files are in a .db format. Does anyone knows how to convert that to .fit ? I found one app for MAC, but I’m on windows …
Paulo
You need to use the Google foo better.
You can go to history and scroll all the way to bottom. There is an option to save as fit.
Also this website will do it
link to regex.info
I just found a way to translate the Pioneer .db files – use Cycling Analytics
In order to upload/translate your pioneer .db file to Strava or similar;
1. Create an account at link to cyclinganalytics.com
2. Upload your .db file (power on your pioneer head unit, then once booted, only then plug in your Pioneer head unit to your mac/PC using USB cable, brings up a file viewer so you can drag and drop from your head unit to your PC)
3. Upload your .db file from your mac/PC to cycling analytics
4. Link your cycling analytics account to Strava
5. Navigate to cycling analytics/strava status and manually upload the file to Strava.
Regards,
KeithB
I do prefer Lucas’ method in #124.
way easier to do the online converter.
link to regex.info
Hi Ray,
I found via search this Shimano site with more/different info about the Shimano Web Service. It seems to be called SHIMANO CONNECT Lab. In the Q&A section it says Australia and 4 other countries will be able to use it from 2022. :-/ Some of the other info there is helpful for Pioneer users and some also beg more quesitons still.
link to bike.shimano.com
You can now transfer your Cyclo-sphere account (if you can get it to work):
link to cyclo-sphere.com
Your link has been loading for 30 min. now and still only some black boxes……..
Well Shimano website and transfer from Cyclosphere is supposed to work now but cant log into Cyclosphere for what ever reason. The Shimano website is piss poor as well.
The system seems super sluggish. Maybe running on a single server that is undersized for the job.
So far not impressed with Shimano. very bad start all around.
But finally was able to log in to cyclosphere and Shimano – this took more than 1 hour But no data could be seen in my account. I will keep waiting maybe it will show up in a few hours or days ?
link to cyclo-sphere.com
link to connect-lab.shimano.com
This is what can be seen in my account.
Spinning circle ?
BTW none of the buttons on the left work. So all you can do is watch the never ending spinning circle. Very interesting
When you hit the location where the users picture is supposed to be you can now access the menu.
in there you cant do anything either because its all just loading forever
For those following along in the comments section and want to take a look at the new site (but can’t do so themselves), I’ve got a write-up on it here: link to dcrainmaker.com
There might be hope … but don’t expect this to work any time soon.
Strava and other services are mentioned – none of that works right now.
Also the CA600 is mentioned.
Not surprising, but dissappointing. I just enquired with Pioneer Australia about one of my PMs (long out of warranty) with the left side having problems with temperature compensation and therefore accuracy over a ride. I’ve since made it copy right side to left for better accuracy. Pioneer referred me to FRF Sports, who were the main distributers for Pioneer PMs in Australia sold and did all the technical support work their via Bikebug stores. From January this year they have stopped all support/spare parts.
Hello Ben,
Anderson here from FRF Sports / BikeBug.
Im contacting you regarding your request about the Pioneer Power Meter. Unfortunately, we have since Jan/21 finished the Technical Support with Pioneer and spare parts for this brand.
Im sorry to say, but there is nothing we can do to help you.
Thanks,
Anderson
—
Regards! Muito Obrigado!
Anderson Fernandes | Warranty Manager and Support Technician
Did anyone ever figure out the process to wirelessly upload from the CA 600 to Shimano Connect?
Randy, Were you able to upload from the CA 600?
Ugh, I had an SGX-CA500 for a long time. It was great. But a collision took me and my bike out of the game for a long time. And ithe computer was destroyed so I needed to replace it.. To be left like this feels like adding insult to injury.
Sending customers a single email with 30 days notice hardly seems like a well-executed transition. More like pillage and burn. And now it is October and still nothing works. My 2021-purchased CA 600 came with firmware 20190624.03.62. I only learned about all these issues a week ago. I want the firmware update. My product is still under warranty and I can’t even access the newly recorded data still on my SGX-CA600.
Am I frustrated? Yes. Providing such a short window to a path forward does not seem like a genuine path forward. SRAM, Campagnolo, and Wahoo products look that much better.
Has anyone figured out a path to firmware upgrade and data download?
Wahoo…currently the best option so that my DA cranksets with my Pioneer PM ‘ 5 years of use and data can continue. So Wahoo Bolt a great computer and Pioneer Pedalling Vectors still available. Also I have never used Cyclo-sphere as my data final storage. Having fit files in WKO and on TP and elsewhere including Strava. But to be expected by Shimano when it comes to blending hardware and software and keeping it simple. Yes iam in Canada so I was one of the slighted. All imho.
This is a long shot, for certain, but apparently the firmware developed for the Pioneer computers, or some significant portion of it, falls under Open Source software rules.
Here’s the link:
link to pioneerelectronics.com
.
Instructions are included for those more knowledgeable or able and willing to investigate..
To be clear, I’ve worked around this Shimano disaster, but I also like to get fair use out of the products I purchase, namely the SGX-CA600..