Remember back in May when 4iiii announced the acquisition of STAC the company (which made trainers and aero/fit stuff)? And remember when they hinted that they’d have a new trainer product in time to show at Eurobike?
No? Ok, well, I did. And more importantly – so did 4iiii and STAC. And true to their word they’ve got a new trainer product to show at Eurobike, the Fliiiight trainer. Yes, again, there’s four i’s in there. My keyboard already hates me enough after the last 24 hours.
Now if you put on that memory hat again you might remember that STAC’s past trainers have been unique in that the resistance is done via magnets that don’t actually touch your rear wheel, but rather generate forces to resist it. As such, there’s zero sound from the trainer itself, with the only sound coming from your normal bike drive chain (which in this case mostly depends on how clean you keep it). Their concept carries through to Fliiiight, except now with a far easier setup/configuration, and no more need for wheel weights.
Here’s the quick overview video:
Got all that? Let’s dive into the tech specs of the updated version.
Tech Specs & Initial Ride:
The best way to sum up the entire 4iiii Fliiiight is in three words: Not complicated anymore.
Alternatively: Not convoluted anymore
Further: Not fugly anymore
I’ve gotta believe that when 4iiii/STAC sat down to build this iteration, they looked at their top complaints by users and reviewers and simply checked through them all. The previous version was complicated and convoluted to set up. Not hard, but just prone to plenty of places it could go wrong. And when it went wrong – then people had a bad setup. I remember the first time I tried it out on their unit at the show floor and was like ‘Woah, this is so much better than my setup at home!’, after which we talked through the nuances of that setup process for their unit versus what I did wrong. Once I went home I was able to replicate it.
So to start, the entire system now has this crazy robotic automatic calibration ‘thing’. Seriously, the entire back half of the trainer has an internal motorized slider that moves left and right independently (the two arms), and then figures out where your wheel is (independently) and shifts in real-time to match your wheel and the sub-second variations of your accelerations (For real: Just watch the video).
But it gets more fascinating than that. They’re using an optical sensor affixed to the tips of the little poles near your rear wheel to measure acceleration so that they can adjust for it in real-time on resistance.
All you do is place this small white straw/sleeve bit on your spoke, and it uses that as the reflector:
Next, if you actually watch the system in the back, it ‘pulses’ in and out dependent on your cadence. One of the things 4iiii says this addresses is the sub-second changes that you output on the wheel-speed, which in turn means the entire thing feels smoother since the system can compensate on it constantly and instantly. But how does it feel? More on that in a second, first, some tech specs.
So let’s run through the key tech specs:
– Price: $599USD, October availability
– Wheel-on trainer, requires metal wheel (not carbon rim)
– Portability: Yes, with 2hr built-in battery if you want
– Max Resistance: 2,200w
– Max Incline Simulation: 7%
– Accuracy level: +/- 1%
– Trainer Control: ANT+ FE-C & Bluetooth Smart FTMS
– Power Transmission: Both ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart open power signals
– Cadence Transmission: Yes
– No more wheel weights needed
So why aren’t wheel weights needed? Well, previously the wheel weights served to increase the flywheel weight which in turn increased road-like feel. It was also to negate the lack of precision on the magnetic resistance aspect constantly changing. In other words, it provided smoothing. But with the fast resistance changes, they can do it all magnetically.
Actually, before we talk about ride feel – it’s actually a portable trainer that’s viable for warm-ups at races. That’s because it has a battery built into it, which gives you about 2 hours of ride time if needed:
And, in a signal to the rest of the industry to ‘catch-up’, they went with power via USB-C. In fact, it goes one step further, it’s got a trip-friendly detachable magnetic USB-C cable included with it. Kinda like the old MacBook chargers (you can also buy this cable for your newer MacBook or USB-C device). So if you trip over it, the cable part simply detaches and nothing is broken:
Now back in the STAC/STAC Halcyon days this trainer was more well-suited towards ERG, given its slightly lower incline resistance, and slightly less road-like feel. In some ways, that stays the same. The unit tops out at 7%, which is lower than most trainers of this price point. At the same time, my guess is that you’ve never bothered to change your Zwift ‘Difficulty Level’ setting from the default of 50% (on purpose or otherwise). So that means that any 14% grades in Zwift actually become 7% grades from a trainer feel/resistance standpoint. And again, almost nobody (except apparently me) changes it.
So since there are almost no grades above 14% in Zwift, then the 7% limitation of this trainer probably doesn’t matter too much in practice for most people (unless you like climbing up simulated hills with full resistance, in which case this isn’t the trainer for you).
That takes us to the next bit: Road-like feel of the Fliiiight.
It’s kinda-ok. It’s not bad, but it’s not fantastic, and the other units at $599 have better feel. Still, I’ll defer judgment till the final software/hardware version. There’s some software tweaks they want to make – which can and likely will impact road-like feel, since everything about this trainer is driven by the software and how efficiently and correctly it can move the magnets (including positioning).
Right now 4iiii says that the final version of hardware should be wrapped up in the next couple of weeks at most, and then they should be ready to start shipping in October.
Of course – as with the Fliiiight, the main appeal of the trainer is simply the silence, as well as lack of vibrations. There are none of either. So the only sound you’ll hear is that of your drive chain, and for apartment dwellers that may have thin floors or walls – there’s no vibrations from the trainer, since your rear wheel is just floating spinning in air, not physically rubbing/driving against anything like a typical wheel-on trainer or direct drive trainer would. Or perhaps, folks looking for a light and portable solution to take to races that can still throw down some serious power in a structured workout.
Wrap-Up:
I’m happy to see 4iiii/STAC listened to all the feedback about their previous generation units, perhaps most notably starting with the looks of it. Gone is construction cone orange, and in comes a sleek black unit. Sure, it’s not as flashy, but it’ll more easily blend into people’s apartments and living rooms without folks avoiding that portion of the room like a public works project.
On the technology side, the new robotic alignment system is simply cool to watch. I mean, sure, it’s more accurate and all that jazz…but let’s be honest: Everyone is entertained by crazy robots. Still, it does serve a purpose: Accurately configuring your wheel for each use, and then being able to track your wheel in real-time as it rotates. All of that means that gone are the days of finagling with the sensor (hopefully). And getting rid of the wheel weight fiasco is also much appreciated too – it means you can use your bike wheel more easily inside and out (versus before you mostly just left a secondary wheel with the weights on it).
Of course, the downside to the trainer is that the road-like feel isn’t super high-end at this point. There’s also the limitation of needing some form of metal rim on your wheels. If you’ve got fancy carbon race wheels, those won’t work. Though given virtually every bike you buy comes with a set of basic metal-rimmed wheels, I suspect most athletes have a set somewhere around.
Ultimately, I’m looking forward to testing out the final version of this, hopefully later this month. I’ll circle back then or early October with a full in-depth review once that happens.
With that – thanks for reading!
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Heads up: You can pre-order the 4iiii Fliiiight via Clever Training. Doing so helps support the site here, and you can use DCR Reader Coupon Code DCR10BTF to save yourself 10%, plus of course free US shipping. Thanks for the support!
Interesting and nice to see that this “so simple that it is genius” technology survives. Kudos to 4iiii for seeing the potential and picking up Stac.
Typo?: “– Wheel-on trainer, requires metal wheel (not carbon frame)” Should read “carbon rim” ?
Cheers,
Steven
What are the chances they will have some sort of an upgrade kit for existing customers I wonder. I went from basic, to power, and almost pulled the trigger on the halcyon before they got bought out.
STAC customer service has always been amazing to deal with.
It looks like it still mounts the same, so they COULD sell an upgrade kit… but 75% of the pain I had upgrading my basic STAC to the Halcyon was in futzing with mounting it correctly. I think there’s a trade off they have to manage between rewarding an early adopter with the latest and greatest with lower prices, vs. punishing an early adopter with having to install the resistance unit again.
My advice to you: the power unit is a sweet spot. Not too complicated, very functional.
My advice to 4iiii: offer an upgrade price to early adopters but just trade out the Fliiiight for the earlier STAC unit – don’t make people deal with swapping resistance units.
Yes, you will be able to retrofit your old trainer with our new resistance unit. This will become available after the product starts showing up in stores in October. Stay tuned for more details!
As an early owner of first the STAC, followed by the Halcyon upgrade kit, I would rather have a swap with a full Fliiiight trainer than fidling again with an upgrade kit. Would also look much cooler than an orange STAC frame with a black resistance unit.
Ringo, for now we will just be offering the upgrade kit consisting of a resistance unit but appreciate your feedback. It’s awesome to see that you’ve stayed with the trainer along its entire development path!
Steve, you could use the wheel weights but the Virtual Inertia that is now included in the firmware makes up for the wheel weights not being there. You should be getting a smooth riding experience without the hassle of the weights.
There will be an upgrade kit for current owners. The user will simply remove the old unit from the frame and bolt the new one in place. Should be out after the initial orders for the fliiiight are filled.
One small correction hear, the current FW might get confused with wheel weights in for the optical sensor so we actually would not recommend trying the Fliiiight with wheel weights. Sorry for the misinformation!
+4 to STAC & 4iiii for offering a resistance unit upgrade for existing customers — AND for designing a good modular system that allows for upgrades like this. I’m looking forward to riding on it.
Graham, we have a waiting list on the website at: link to 4iiii.com It’s currently oriented towards full trainers, but once we’ve caught up with demand, we’ll be launching an upgrade.
For now, a spoked wheel should be used. We’ve tested a very wide range of spoke patterns, shapes and sizes that have all provided a smooth road feel. Thanks for the question!
I’m a very satisfied Stac Halcyon user (and I second the comments about great customer service!) so I’m excited to see things moving forward under the 4iii’s umbrella. I won’t be upgrading because the traffic-cone aesthetic works in my unfinished basement and I already have a trainer-wheel with weights that I swap out. But this looks like a great option for new customers.
Awesome update!! I have the first generation STAC trainer, which they upgraded with newer parts twice for me in the first couple years. These were really hardworking and passionate guys and I am happy to see their ideas grow so large.
Helli Ray, i am a bit confused this metal definition. Will it work with Al alloys? I always thought that magnets will not work on Al materials but on steels only.
The rim cannot have any steel in it. A non-ferrous wheel (aluminum) is what you need.
The STAC Zero support site is still operating. FAQs are answered here: link to stacperformance.zendesk.com
Any metal. Anything that conducts electricity well. This does not work by “attraction”, but by inducing a current in the rim to produce heat. The rim is actually warmer than room temperature after a ride (although not excessively so).
In fact, you’re much better off if there’s no steel anywhere. I had the original Kickstarter STAC (upgraded afterwards to a Halcyon), and I had to use zip ties to keep the magnets from being attracted to the rim. I couldn’t figure out why (I knew the rims weren’t steel because I could test them with smaller magnets) until I finally realized I was using wire beaded tires, and the wire was steel. Switching to Kevlar beaded tires fixed that problem. I’m sure that the actuators in this are probably strong enough that wire beads would work, but it’s better not to have any steel around at all.
Excellent response, Paul. The earlier units were moderately compatible with steel pins/wire beads, but the Halcyon, and especially the Fliiiight won’t be compatible with any steel present, so it’s very important that you check beforehand. The self-centreing carriage moves freely enough that the magnets will pull it to one side and hold it there, while the reaction force from normal operation will push the magnets away slightly and help maintain a centred position.
I just have to say that it is really cool to watch the progression of STAC, and how their technology and trainers continue to progress. The arms automatically adjusting is really, really cool! I do wonder about the reliability and expected lifespan of those motors. I love seeing them continue to innovate!!
You said 599 is a bit much for this trainer what do you think is a better price DC? I am very much interested in the trainer but I too think 599 is a bit steep. That being said, depending on your finalreview I may get it…perfect for Zwift on Apple TV, easy to move and put away (easier than my Direto), so it might be it. My only concern is durability .
Just curious, what does $599 trainer has that this one doesn’t. Maybe I’m biased because i have a Stac Zero halcyon, but it seems than the price is competitive with others at the same level.
Maybe not the same road feel, but you have said to get the best road feel you need to go to over $1000 models. But its is absolutely silent, like nothing else on the market. Even the most expensive units can’t claim this.
it has better power accuracy (TBD i guess) than others at the same price level ($500-$700). If the claims are true, you would need to go all the way to a trainer 2x the price of this one for the same accuracy.
And yes, 7% inclination is not the best, but for probably most people it more than adequate (and if im not mistaken the halcyon could potentially do 12%).
Yes, i would love it to be slightly less expensive (that why i bought to halcyon on sale for 375, and i would buy the new one at $499 right now), but I can’t see why its a tougher sell at this price point (if i didn’t had a trainer already, this one would be at the top of my list).
I agree with Joel here. No tire wear and completely silent, probably more-than-decent power accuracy. Should blow all wheel-on trainers out of the water. So that makes it compete with direct-drive trainers which start at 799-899 or so. Bu then again, I am no DC Rainmaker…
Looks like an interesting candidate to replace my Tacx Vortex when it needs replacement
I’m very curious about the road feel comments. Would adding a bunch of weight to the wheel as in the prior version fix that? Has anyone else compared a stac to a neo or kickr for road feel?
Just moved up on my list as most interesting trainer to get this year. I’m looking for something as quiet as possible for riding in my living room without spending 1300€ on a Tacx Neo 2T.
On my Kickr Snap, I’ve always preferred doing ERG instead of simulation rides in Zwift. For a large part because the Snap really gets loud/starts to vibrate in higher gears.
So I really hope that 4iiii will be able to deliver by the end of October via some German retailer.
The Kurt kinetic trainer I have works nicely with both my 650c bike and my husband’s 700c bike. I’ve even had a 24” kid’s bike on there, but that sounded like a small jet due to the knobby tires.
Yes, we can accommodate a wide range of wheel sizes with no issue switching between 650c and 700c. It’s a simple process of adjusting a couple of set screws. You should also be able to get away with your kid’s bike on there too so the whole family can join in the fun!
Scott – is there any thought to support wheel sizes down to 20″ (406 BSD)? I know it’s a smaller market, but is a very small modification given your mounting. This would be amazing for BMX race bikes, and I know I’ve talked to people looking for 20″ compatibility for recumbents, trikes, and folders as well.
Unfortunately we’ve tried riding 20″ wheels and they are too small for the Fliiiight Trainer. We appreciate your interest and we recognize the need for some riders to accommodate these wheel sizes. It will certainly be a consideration for the future for us. Thanks for your question!
Regarding use for race warm up, what’s the biggest tire that can fit in there? Looks like it could be interesting for cyclocross warm up without wearing out an expensive tire, but the clearance looks a little tight.
Really love the concept of the 4iiii smart trainer(s).
I currently own a Kickr Snap – which is a good reference since they’re in the same price segment – so here’s what I am taking from this article: Fliiiight is way better in terms of noise emission, and it saves people a lot of time because it allows them to keep their road tyres (also, less wear). But the 7% incline on the Fliiiight is a real dealbraker because I absolutely love hard climbs.
Hope the people at 4iiii keep up the good work and manage to up that resistance on their next version.
The Clever Training link takes you to a landing page for the Vivoactive/Vivomove.
Also, once I enter Clever Training’s site from your website and add the 4iiii Fliiiight to my cart does anything else I add to the cart before purchase help support the site?
I live in a condo and got a Halcyon after my neighbor started complaining about the noise my Wahoo Snap was making. It has been almost a year and so far no noise complaints.
One issue I have is that one of the magnets always gets out of whack and rubs the rim resulting in having to constantly adjust the position of the bike. I hope this version eliminate that. Looking forward to seeing what an upgrade kit will be.
Yes, there’s new firmware for rim detection so you shouldn’t have this problem anymore. There’s also an easy “recenter” button in the 4iiii App if you run into any trouble. Thanks!
You will need to swap in a trainer specific thru-axle, but yes, this should work with newer disc equipped bikes. The ones from Saris, Wahoo, Kinetic, Robert Axle Project and such should work.
I’ve been testing the Fliiiight regularly with a Vision Team 30 TA/disc wheel, and it has worked very well. The resistance is on par with a traditional rim brake wheel like the Shimano R500 or R11 that we would previously recommend.
Have been thinking about getting a Kickr Core for a while but put off by the storage space I’d need for it, this looks like it will pack up really nicely and won’t take long to set up each time which is good as I am pretty time squeezed for workout time.
Hi Ray. I saw your comment about the ‘crazy robotic automated calibration’. Does this mean it doesn’t need a spin down or anything. If so that sounds great.
Nothing in particular but we recommend using it with a trued wheel for the best experience. The closer to true the better but there is some wiggle room,
What are the clearances like? Enough to just run MTB 29×2.3 or gravel 700×40 without swapping tires/wheels? That would be a plus for me, just stick the same bike onto the trainer!
Maybe someone can illuminate what is going on with the max incline simulation number for me? I feel like I just don’t understand the number in relation to the trainers watt number. Going up a grade requires more watts, based on your speed and weight and grade – so doesn’t the ‘max incline’ basically translate to the max watts the unit can produce, and then based on your weight, different speeds would have different max inclines? Do different companies use different reference speeds? It seems like you can find a 2000 watt trainer with a 20% max incline (cycleops hammer direct) and then this one is 2200 watt with a 7% so I feel like I’m missing some fundamental portion of what is going on or not understanding the numbers in the features descriptions. Hardly matters for my skill level, but I like understanding what the deal is.
Max incline for most trainers is based on a given rider weight, usually 70-75kgs for most companies specs. Speed can and does play into things a bit, but honestly that’s a heck of a lot harder to quantify on spec sheets due to variations in gearing. So most companies then demonstrate it as a power curve. Tacx for example has power curves on their site, and I think Elite does somewhere too.
Hi,
I’m wondering.. how big is the difference with the more expensive trainers in power/ability to train…
I’m going to start training for Mallorca 312… Will I be fine (73kg..) training with this trainer?
Tried writing into 4iiii but didn’t get a helpful response on this. I have a 90mm alu+carbon rear wheel – can I use this with the Fliiiight now that I don’t need a rear wheel weight?
I’ve got a STAC Halcyon, so I’m aware of the alu brake track requirement. I’m just wondering if I need a separate box rim rear wheel, or will the spoke sensor reach down enough to give clearance for a 90mm rear wheel.
It’ll be hit or miss with 90mm wheels. I was able to get it to work with a FLO 90 with some adjustment and experimentation, but the wattage was limited (due to offsetting the resistance unit from the brake track). We can’t guarantee it’ll work, but there is a possibility. A 60mm wheel is much more likely to have success.
I got a good deal on a Halcyon on clearance. I like it, but the wheel weights and the centering are a bit of a hassle. I particularly like how it doesn’t put any wear on my tires, it’s quiet, it doesn’t shake the whole house, and it folds up to fit under the couch. I remember in your review of the Halcyon, you found that the ride feel was pretty good. Comparable with a $600 trainer, but not an $800 trainer. Here, it seems like you don’t quite feel that the Fliiight is as good as other $600 trainers. Is the ride feel of this worse than the Halcyon (perhaps because of the removal of the wheel weights), or is it simply that other $600 trainers have dramatically improved?
I guess my question is, is this a worthwhile upgrade from the Halcyon?
Well here we are in late October. Any sign of these units, or a full review?
Anything from 4iiii or CT about UK/euro availability?
I’m signed up on the 4iiii site for updates but they haven’t sent me anything about ordering – anyone else?
I’m keen! It’s cold and wet in the UK and I live in a top floor unit so this is really my only option. I’ve been looking for second hand Stacs but there are none here.
I’ve been wondering, why doesn’t the company produce a weighted wheel that goes on the bike (flywheel)? It would be easier than the weights, and simpler than the robots and software.
Typically when CT transitions to 5-7 days that means they have tracking details from a manufacturer for the shipment inbound to them (or, very recent confirmation that a shipment is being prepared).
Today on Clever Training they have the Fliiiight with HR bundle at 499.99. Thats 100 LESS than buying just the Fliiiight by iteslf! and with the DCR discount total is 449.00. Now if 4iiii can just agree on a shipping date………
Darn the discounted HRM bundle page is still showing when you search but gives ‘page not found’ when clicking through. Anyone had their order confirmed? I see Ray had an issue with it this week…
Yeah, the ‘deal’…was…uhh….not quite planned. Congrats to those who got it, CT is of course honoring your early Christmas Deal. :)
But…pro tip, the CT VIP Sale starts later this week, which gets you 20% off a single item – and you can use this code right now (FREEVIPDCR) to sign-up for the VIP program for free rather than paid. That way you’re good to go as soon as that opens shortly…very very shortly.
At 20% off, that brings a few direct drive trainers back into my range. I am loving the silence idea with the Fliiiight, but in comparison with my gen 1 KICKR I’m sure that anything else is considered quiet by comparison. If the 4iiii doesn’t ship reasonably soon I may change my order…..
It was good of them to honor the deal for me. I am very excited to get my first trainer and get back on my bike! I know it’s a gamble going with the Fliiiight without a thorough review but it was too good of a deal to pass up.
I had some issues over the weekend, and 4iiii thinks it was essentially a dorked up firmware application that put it into a weird state. I’ve got a new firmware update to apply today and they believe that’ll resolve it.
I’ve got the STAC Halcyon and love it. I never really take the bike off the trainer so haven’t ever really worried about the magnet rub that apparently the Fliiiight fixes. Also, only had to fiddle with the weights on the rear wheel one time. I would definitely not want to be taking them off and on repetitively, which it sounds like the Fliiiight also fixes. The only two complaints I have with the Halcyon is that the cadence does not report accurately (for a while it never even did report). My understanding is the Fliiiight fixes that, as well. The other is that it literally feels like concrete with the second to second adjustment when you start a ride from standstill or transition out of ERG for a max effort in a training effort on Zwift. The Halcyon has a beta option in their app where you can increase the 7% max incline to 10%. I use it, and get no rubbing from the magnets on my rim. Then again, I never take the rim off.
I would absolutely buy the Fliiiight if the Halcyon wasn’t still so damn functional for me. I’m hoping 4iiii offers some type of affordable upgrade kit for those of us who were early adopters. At a $500 price point, for someone without a smart trainer, this would be an absolute no brainer, based on my experience.
So after a bump of five, first ride successfully in the books. A Zwift structured workout. I haven’t loaded the full data set into the DCR Analyzer yet, but looking at the data in real-time across multiple head units & power meters it looked pretty darn close.
Road-feel was roughly what I remember back in September – not terribly great. Largely ok in ERG mode, but I’ll have to tweak with it a bit in SIM mode (regular Zwift mode) to see if I can find a happy spot. More testing to come all week, along with a bit of optimizing too.
I mean dork a bit with the wheel alignment specifically. There’s also some settings in the app that I have no idea what they do yet. They’ve got fancy acronyms like “Change mV/V”
We’re looking at a few options to customize the experience for different riders. This will allow different people to maximize the experience for their own particular use case. As we update the app, there are a few things that we will be rolling out:
– a startup walkthrough
– getting the most from your trainer
– some additional functionality options that tweak things like ERG response
Most initial usability issues are related to a lack of understanding to how to properly use the trainer. This is something that is on us for providing to the user, so we’re going to make sure that all of the necessary information is relayed to the end user.
I asked CT when they would ship and they replied ‘ Unfortunately, I can’t give you an exact date as to when this will ship, as it is currently on a back order and we are not sure as to when we will be getting this in stock from the manufacturer. ‘
Given I’m only in the US until 10th December I don’t think I can risk it.
Ooof. I ended up ordering from a UK store who said it would be shipped today and with me tomorrow, which would line up with the original 4iiii estimate but I’ve chased the store for a tracking ref with no reply so far..
I ordered from Power Meter City. Talked to them today and said they should have them today and shipped out when they receive them. Apparently they’ll be the first dealer in the states to get them.
Reading the short review on the Fliiiight was really dissappointing: if you got the statue of a Columbian pro-rider (minus the strength) and assume you only wanna do ERG, this trainer might work for you… well, thats says it all, doesnt it? 4iiii sent a demo ex to maybe 25 influencers, if their feedback was the same as yours, 4iiii will be forced to change something drastically: in its current state it is worse than the Halcyon (compare the trainer road graphs). They might respond with something drastic, for example increase the current or increase the amount of magnets in order to create better resistance and top it off with a larger battery. Considering the delay after delay (October, Black Friday, skip Christmas, thats not even realistic, say January 2020!) the 4iiii team will need the next two months to develop a product which might be intresting for a larger target group.
I’m wondering what’s going on with the Fliiiight? Units were to ship in October, then this week and now one online retailer is saying Dec 13?
Ray said his review was pretty much ready to go at the beginning of the week pending a chat with 4iiii but here we are at Thursday and still crickets (not a slight at you Ray, I know you have many other things on the go!)
I read the mini blurb in the 5 random things post and wonder why, if it’s spec’d at 2200W it wouldn’t be suitable for more powerful riders?
Anyway, will see what is what when the review comes out as I am quite interested in this trainer.
My suspicion is that 4iiii is taking Ray (and other reviewers’) feedback seriously and making any software changes to keep improving the trainer before official release. Which is good and what you want to hear from a company, but the delay after delay is making me reconsider my pre-order. I’m worried that by the time it gets released, winter will be almost over so I might have to settle for a different trainer.
This is exactly what I was thinking as well, based on the subtle “hints” Ray was dropping about getting in touch with 4iiii before his review goes up. I agree this is a good thing and leads to an overall better and more stable product at release.
I have been using my Cycleops Fluid2 dumb trainer for years with power meter pedals so another month or so won’t hurt, other than tire wear I guess (haha) but I have a fresh set ready to go for the spring anyway :-)
I had a call with them a night or two ago. I think two nights. In short, the target market for this trainer is folks with FTP’s of about 200w. I exceed that.
Which, doesn’t mean it won’t work for me. It’s just that it won’t work as well for me. It works better in TrainerRoad than Zwift.
However, as part of that call they had a tweak for me to try via software config setting that will give me more power/resistance. They had put a fair margin of into how close the magnetic arms get to your wheel rim. They’ve been testing out an option to reduce that margin (which doesn’t impact safety, but could on a non-true wheel get close enough to touch). By using that setting it’ll significantly improve resistance. Though, it won’t really help Zwift, since in that scenario for SIM mode (not ERG mode, it’s fine there), it’ll also reduce road-like feel.
With the DCR Open House this weekend and Black Friday stuffs and recommendations I haven’t had a chance to try it. Hoping tomorrow.
Good to hear about the tweak to improve resistance. I don’t Zwift at all. I tried it, wasn’t too keen TBH, just not my cup of tea. I prefer more structured workouts on the trainer without the temptation to chase rabbits when I’m supposed to be holding a certain wattage, haha. I’m a TrainerRoad guy so ERG mode is most important to me.
Thanks for the follow-up Ray. Good luck with the open house this weekend!
I don’t zwift and only use sufferfest. My power is right around 200. Can you clarify on “target market for this trainer is folks with FTP’s of about 200w.” Does it mean if my workout intervals goes into 300+ w, then the trainer won’t provide enough resistance?
200w FTP doesn’t sound right. I’ve been using a Stac Zero for a couple years, riding many hours at 200-300w and many sprints at 500-800w, as my fitness waxes and wanes. It’s mechanically a bit fussy to keep aligned, and I’ve given up on the wheel weights, but it’s worked OK. I’ve ordered a Fliiiight to upgrade to smart trainer, and I expect it’ll work fine with my level of power. Perhaps there will be some teething pains as they work out the software control system for different wheels, and maybe it’s not right for someone with a lot more power, but the technology is sound.
200w is indeed the target point. Remember, unlike STAC, this doesn’t leverage weights.
Note that 200w FTP doesn’t mean it’s limited to 200w, rather, it means that’s the target market. So that 200w FTP athlete may do sprints up to say 500w, or may do work at 300w. But it’s not designed for a 300w FTP person who is doing double or triple that.
Further, the other challenge is attaining those wattages across a broad cadence range. For example, you might be able to coax 800w out of the unit, but only at a crazy high RPM, not something like 90-100RPM, and certainly not lower.
I am having issues with it clamping too hard onto my wheel – the wheel is rubbing on the magnets and I’m struggling to get it to gap properly. The ‘recenter’ function in the app is clamping it hard on one side and not at all on the other. I’ll check their manuals to see what’s up.
I’m away from Saturday for 10 days so won’t be able to test it any more or respond.. sorry.
With the Halcyon you can physically move your wheel by screwing out one side and screwing in the other. I often had to do that to get things aligned right. Looking at a picture of the Fliiiight, it looks as if you can do the same thing.
Ditto with my Halycon. Axle cup is screwed all the way out on the drive side.
Initially that concerned me but after many rides with bike off/on leaving that side untouched, it’s dialed in.
I haven’t had to re-center the magnets using the app since.
If you can send us a support request at link to 4iiii.zendesk.com we’ll get things attended to. What we’re working on is a more comprehensive startup walkthrough that helps address some of the initial setup issues that you may be seeing, as well as understanding how to best use the trainer.
New to cycling (triathlons) and have been looking for a trainer for winter use for both me and the mrs. This is where problems begin. She still has an old bike that is a 9 speed whereas I have an 11 speed, so direct drives will be a pain to always switch the cassettes back and forth. So I was looking into wheel on trainers. This really interested me as it would just make things easier without having to change tire (I know it isn’t that hard) and for the more quiet ride. As a result I did preorder it from clevertraining when they had their sale.
I have read your comments and replies and noticed that you DON”T think this trainer will be very good for individuals with FTP around 300.
First year biking and racing tri’s I had a power calculation of roughly 217 watts for 37 mins of racing in stage 2 of the tri. So I am assuming my FTP will be higher than that #. The Mrs. rides at lower power.
We would like to do both ERG and SIM modes with online apps.
Do you think this trainer will be a good option or should I cancel my order and grab another trainer like wahoo kickr snap and just deal with the tire? Or another option?
Any updates on this? I have one on order from CT (placed when it said shipped in 5-7 business days) and have heard nothing (going on 9 days). 4iii website now says coming in January 2020?!
Any idea of when your review will post? Sounds like there are some big shifts that could change my mind…
Well, my unit arrived today. I’d so love to give a thumbs up but just didn’t get it to work yet. My issues seem to be connected with the control system and MAY get sorted out via a firmware update (fingers crossed). But the (pretty outdated) Android application doesn’t know anything about smart trainers.. the >new< 4iiii-App is, suprisesurprise, iOS-only. Does anybody know of a way for non-Apple folks to get my firmware updated?
link to 4iiii.com
that’s the link Erika from 4iiii gave me on request to their current version of the android app.
I feel also more like a beta-tester than like a consumer of a fully fledged product.
I’m going to start my 2nd day of trouble shooting now.
I mentioned to them that they should sell the perfect rear wheel directly with the trainer instead of trying to make it work with a largeselection of different wheels. Apparently they will think about it.
No, if they sell a wheel with it the price point goes into the next bracket where there are better trainers readily available to people on IOs and Android. Due to 4iiii’s apparent inability to un-f themselves prior to releasing the unit to CT I’ve cancelled my order. And seeing the few people who have got on it describe their experiences, I’m starting to believe that I made the right decision.
I beg to differ! Offering a near silent trainer doesn’t affect the kitty box. I myself would happily pay the equivalent to a neo 2t if it would be near silent and would offer more or less the equivalent experience of a direct drive. I got two kids, age 1 and 3 and live in an apartment, silence is golden! Furthermore, I’ve seen a lot of strong Asian riders on Zwift exceeding the 200 watt target group and ignoring that market would be a costly mistake… just my two cents on this matter.
You should go somewhere where you can try a 2T. I replaced my Halcyon (Fliiiight predecessor from STAC) with a Neo 2. I don’t think it’s any louder. Most of the noise in both cases is drivetrain noise.
The Android app update is on its way. We’re doing a full refresh on the app, which is the reason that it’s slightly delayed.
For now, we can perform updates through a Chrome plugin, but there should be no need to update the firmware beyond what is supplied from the factory for the time being. We haven’t made any large changes since shipping the first units, and there’s not currently anything that would change functionally. If you are experiencing odd performance, this is something we would love to know exactly what’s causing it, so I would really encourage you to contact our support at: link to 4iiii.zendesk.com This will allow us to help correct any problems, and if it is a major bug, we’ll look at rolling it out to the larger community.
Not precisely an ‘agile’ release.. I’m riding with an Halcyon, totally satisfied; yes the weights are crap to have to deal with, but you can do without and stay in a long gear and SIM mode. Not ideal, but if you’re training to then ride outdoors then who cares, and if you’re more a Zwift type then probably who cares at all.. :)
Apart from jokes, the only two features I would have added -apart from the crappy weights- are:
1- a physical button to wide open the magnets when you want to take your bike off
2- a EliteQubo-like release handle on the gear side to instant free your bike
After all, one of the selling points here is that you can train and ride your bike, bike on and bike off, effortlessly.
Silent, no wheel consumption, you keep your wheel on, it promises to take care of road feel aspect, you can put on/off whatever bike you own disregarding the powermeter they sport and still do the next workout with consistent power..
I use it for maintenance as well -actually I’ve recently assembled a bike on it- and of course it’s super convenient to regulate the rear mech as you can open the arrays and let the wheel spin free.. Multi-purpose, in a way.
It just deserved a physical button and a lever for me to do the upgrade.
I see the Fliiiight ships a 2 hours battery.
That’s astonishingly low! I bought mine 2+ years ago and I never ran out of battery or really care when to charge: I’m on the trainer a 4/5 Hours per week and charge every when I happen to remember every couple of weeks or so. I’d say I’ve got 10 hours rocking approx.
2 hours only means charging every single time.. :-/
The Halcyon functions while charging. After I had a battery failure once, I just plugged it in to a big USB battery and didn’t worry about it any more. I assume you can do the same (either battery or a plugged in power brick) with the Fliiiight.
Yup, spot on. That said: Mine shuts off after approx 3min riding when not plugged in, setting the resistance to zero instantaneously. Most probably a hardware failure that 4iiii will correct when i contact them tomorrow (Today is Sunday..).
Funny thing is that i ordered the Fliiiight since the Halcyon was not available any more & i read good things (w.r.t. my needs, of course) about the Halcyon.
Anyone yet whose Fliiiight is up & runniiiing without issues?
I’ve have the Fliiiight for 4 days now and because there’s no real review/information about the device anywhere, here’s my experience so far.
It’s been terrible.
Let me preface this by saying that this is my very first smart trainer and my first experience with one. I’m a tech nerd working in IT though, so that might at least count for something.
Most of the following is stuff I wrote to 4iiii support yesterday. It’s the weekend, so they didn’t reply yet. Maybe they will be able to help me with some of my problems?
I tried around 10-15 rides with it on Zwift and managed to complete just two rides without running into a breaking issue. It’s nearly impossible to do a workout for more than 10 minutes without running into problems.
Stuff I ran into once:
– The charging light started blinking green in the middle of a workout and the Fliiiight dropped connection to my MacBook. It kept blinking until I restarted it. The meaning of this blinking pattern is undocumented (link to 4iiii.zendesk.com).
– The Fliiiight stopped applying resistance and kept reporting a constant wattage to my MacBook for about 1-2 minutes, even after I stopped peddling, then suddenly started working again.
– It shipped with a broken foot (there was no damage to the packaging at all). I reported this to my retailer and they managed to order a new one from you, sending it directly to me. Shit happens, but it’s another moot point on a long laundry list.
Persistent problems:
– It just randomly drops connection to my MacBook. The only way to reset this is to turn it off an on again.
– The Fliiiight doesn’t hold a charge for more than about 10 minutes. It then just turns off. I guess the battery is defective.
– The Fliiiight’s magnets keep touching my rear wheel. This usually stops after a minute of peddling (and me cringing because it feels like it’s damaging my rear wheel), but it’s extremely irritating. It also does this in the middle of a workout sometimes when the resistance changes. I have not yet tried to adjust the bolts as described in the wheel alignment video (link to youtube.com), mainly because it was just released. To me, my alignment looks fine though. I followed the guide a link to 4iiii.zendesk.com.
Notes:
– My wheel is true.
– My rim is not magnetic.
– I’m only using my fastest gear.
– I upgraded to firmware 3.6.0 (altough it sometimes reports as firmware version “unknown”).
– Battery always shows 100% in app.
– In-App diagnostics report shows no issues while peddling.
– I’m using Zwift on my MacBook. It’s about 4 meters away from the Fliiiight. The Fliiiight’s status light flashes shortly twice. I suppose that means that my connection is good.
Let me emphasize this: The random connection drops are very persistant. I just now started a 30 minute workout on zwift and the Fliiiight lost connection to my MacBook after about 25 minutes.
Just before my Halcyon mysteriously bricked itself in October I began to suffer short disconnections with my Win10 PC running Rouvy. In response to the bricking Erika at Stac Zero Support sent me the instructions to re-flash the firmware to v2006 – this appears to be in advance of the current recommended firmware level of v2005. My original firmware was that installed for the initial EU release in 2018 so pre-v2005.
The new firmware is a huge improvement and with no other changes has virtually eliminated wheel rub! It also sounds completely different more like the magnets may actually be moving in and out with the turning wheel. I’ve also gone into the Android app and changed the max resistance to 10%, but the key as with rollers is to honestly use a highish gear to get appropriate resistance for the gradient being tackled.
Separately to resolve the connection issue Erika got me to purchase a USB extension cable to move my Ant+ sensor much closer to the Power Meter as this apparently is always a good idea due to the potential for wi-fi interference to Ant+ signals – and my PC is only 2m from the power meter!
I have now the fliiiight since one week and I faced almost all the problems that you listed. Here below the solutions that I found for some of them:
– Drop connection with Macbook: Install an application called “Zwift Companion” on your cellphone and connect-it all your bluetooth devices (fliiight, heartrate monitor,…). I did few zwift rides without any connection issue.
– For the magnet touching the wheel: I tighted strongly the rear wheel to the support to avoid any horizontal movement of the wheel during workout. Problem seems to have disappeared.
My main issue is the trainer resistance. Happen to me 2 or 3 times, during Zwift workout the trainer resistance dropped sudently for any reason (elevation in Zwift still the same) and caused a drop of my W and speed…
When this happen I turned legs as crazy and the resistance bringed back….
I guess this kind of problem can be fixed trough firmware update.
When I don’t have this kind of resistance issue the trainer is pretty cool to use. I did yesterday a zwift group workout of 1 hour without any issue, it was great.
I received my Flight trainer in the mail a few days ago. I like some aspects of it a lot, like the silence and zero contact design and USB-C charging. I’ve completed two (and a half) rides so far. I’ve had a few issues, some minor and one major.
Minor: when trying a ride on battery power, the trainer disconnected from my phone (an iPhone X, running Zwift, all software in latest versions) repeatedly, usually after 90 seconds or so. I’d have to power cycle the trainer to get it to reconnect (and then it would just disconnect a minute or two later). This isn’t a big deal for me, because I don’t plan on using it on battery power, but if someone needed that function they’d be cooked. Using the Zwift companion app to connect has solved all connection issues for me (on this trainer and others, FWIW).
Minor: The magnets don’t center on my wheel when I use the app to center them (using the 4iiii app, latest firmware (3.6 I think)). One is much closer (2x) than the other. One is <1cm away and the other is more like ~2cm. I'm not sure if this affects ride quality or not. The fit with my wheel looks good (parallelism, etc.) other than centering issues.
Major: The baseline resistance of the unit is so low it's effectively unusable for Zwift. When racing on a flat, I have to spin super fast to even maintain my FTP (a modest 210w) and going beyond that is a coin flip. Sometimes the unit catches on and ramps my resistance up (but with an unpleasant lag that makes me feel like I'm leaving watts on the table and then with an unpleasant lag in the other direction when I back off) and other times it doesn't, especially on a downhill, where it's often impossible to put out enough watts to keep up, even at very high RPMs. This seems like a software problem to me, because if I manually switch over to the 4iiii app and tell the trainer to give me more resistance, the problem is basically solved. But that's not feasible, because as soon as I switch back to Zwift it goes back to low-resistance spin city on everything but steep hills. My bike is somewhat low-geared (top gear is 11t in the back, 34t up front), but I've used other trainers (like a Saris M2) and had zero issues with this at my power level.
Really frustrated with the low resistance issue–will probably return the trainer if there isn't a fix.
I loved the idea of this trainer and decided worth taking a punt as an early adopter given the tech is tested (previous STAC products).
Using all the correct stuff:
Alu wheels
Correctly setup as per the videos online.
In terms of the ride-ability the there is a huge discrepancy based on your power numbers:
For my GF who has an FTP around 150W it is passable to ride, the “virtual” flywheel does an okay job, reasonably smooth.
For me with a not amazing but passable FTP of 320-330 the ride is pretty horrendous, firstly you need to maintain around 95-100 RPM to get over 300W in your hardest gear (for me 52-11), that in itself isn’t so bad but the “virtual” flywheel at this power and speed is incredibly clunky and I would liken the feel to riding with a badly bent wheel with brake rub at points in the pedal cycle.
At higher wattages the magnets will frequently touch the rims.
There are then some generic issues with it that have affected both of us:
Random bluetooth drop out to her laptop (Zwift) and my phone (Samsung S9).
Random power off when not attached to power socket, random drop outs when connecting to devices.
For me the latter issues are simply software/firmware fixes, but the ride feel and difficulties attaining the stated wattages for me are a no-no.
A lot of my training is SS >270W or intervals at >350W which I am not convinced this device can attain with the current hardware spec (feel free to correct me on this).
I struggled to describe the ride feel for days now, but you did a pretty good job there! As if the resistance constantly changes during one single revolution of the feet (which, i’m pretty sure, it is).
Have observed everything you described + additional connection problems using ANT+ (with the dongle 20cm away from the trainer). The best results i got using the elemnt bolt controlling the trainer. But even then the Flight usually overshoots “hard” intervals by as much as 20% in the first few seconds and undershoots the easy ones.
Precision hitting prescribed wattages (in erg mode that is, with me really trying to keep a constant cadence) also doesn’t seem too stellar compared to a Flux S – but here i don’t know how much smoothing the Flux applies, since my powermeterhub can’t be used for obvious reasons. So it may be that the Flight is just the most honest trainer in this comparison, i lack experience here.
For the record: My FTP is approx. 260W and i keep the wheel spinning at somewhere the equivalent of 41km/h. Firmware v3.6 (which can only be updated via iOS at the moment – i had to ask a friend for this).
While I haven’t had the drop-out issues, what folks are seeing with respect of responsiveness and ability to provide resistance at ‘higher’ levels (as in high 200’s and beyond) is matching my experience/testing.
I have been following the saga of this trainer since it was announced and based on intuition and the feedback I’ve read hereI have cancelled my order for the Flight (refuse to hit i 4 times). Too bad ’cause I had a great deal with the heart rate bundle. Thankfully(?) it hasn’t shipped yet and I was able to cancel. Should have known something was amiss when a brand new product is immediately deeply discounted and bundled with other stuff to try and clear stock…
I was waiting for the full review but I was running out of time to cancel and I didn’t want to be stuck with a big paperweight. it looks like this was a case of “over promise, under deliver” or “too rushed to market”. Maybe when/if the issues are sorted, or there’s a hardware v2.0 I’ll have another look at it. I just can’t be bothered to muck about with something that much with the limited training time I have as it is. I just need things to work. The lack of resistance and consistency is a deal-breaker (my FTP, while not pro-grade is still well north of 200w)
It’s too bad because this looked promising but there is just too much uncertainty and what appears to be fiddling around and consumer beta testing to try and get it to work right.
Guess I’m back to the old dumb fluid trainer until I decide on a different smart solution, or the rains stop in May…
I bought a Halcyon on closeout. For what I use it for, it’s good. Not amazing, but good. I use it about once per week, for about 30 min. I was planning to use it more, but I guess that’s the nature of planning.
The best thing about it is the size. It’s a really convenient size. I can fold it up, and slide it under the couch when I’m not using it. It’s not big or heavy, and moving it doesn’t mean I need to re-calibrate anything.
I had intended to use it with Zwift, but I don’t use it enough to justify paying for Zwift.
I use both sets of weights, and I am a 200 FTP rider. I generally use it as a “dumb” trainer, watch a GCN workout, and shift gears to change resistance; or I use it in ERG mode.
The setup is a little annoying. I do have to spend at least 5 min setting it up and adjusting it. I alternate between the trainer and rollers. I swap out the wheel, because I don’t want the wheel weights on when I’m on the rollers. When you factor in getting dressed, swapping wheels, connecting with the app and adjusting it, that could be a 20min setup process.
The Stac app isn’t great, but it’s not bad. The 4iiii app is certainly better than the Stac one. It has a cleaner interface, and it does work with the Halcyon, but it doesn’t tell you whether or not the wheel is centered.
Controlling the resistance with my Wahoo Bolt seems to work the best. I’ve never tried controlling it with Zwift. ERG mode works fine. If I’m in my highest gear, I can raise the resistance to 300 watts before the magnets rub against the rim. If I’m in a lower gear (which I would do to keep a straighter chain line), I can go up to around 200 or maybe 250 before it rubs.
I can’t stand up on the trainer, but I’m not sure if that’s the trainer or me.
It also strikes me that they have sort of built a wheel-off smart trainer without a shell. I bet, if you opened up a Kicker Core, you would probably see a flywheel with a magnet array. This trainer has a magnet array, and it uses your wheel as a flywheel.
Anyway, I bought it over the summer. I’ll keep using it. If I want to use a trainer more, and I feel limited by it, I’ll probably buy a different wheel-off trainer. If I use it just as much as I have been, or if they do a great software update, I’ll keep it.
I must confess to being a reasonably content Halcyon user (with an FTP of around 250W). When it was fairly new my brother-in-law had a test ride, although he really liked the idea of the Halcyon, he bought a Wahoo Kickr simply because of the much higher maximum resistance available – he wanted to practice Alpine passes in the gears and cadence he would actually use. Climbing a 30% slope on the Halcyon at 90rpm on the big ring of a road bike at 2 mph (as I did today) is not realistic, and unfair to my Rouvy rivals almost all of whom will have had a much tougher time than I had. This I feel is the reason why Rouvy are yet to offer the Halcyon as an option on their list of recognised smart trainers.
Prior to the Halcyon I used a light commercial spin bike that had a lovely smooth action via a heavy flywheel with magnetic retardation – sound familiar? However, and I feel this is crucial – as the magnets descended onto the flywheel to increase retardation, there reached a point where the magnets were supplemented by a felt pad that rubbed on the rim of the flywheel. There seemed to be no wear or noise from this pad, and retardation with pad even at low speeds could be significant because ultimately this pad was part of the emergency brake.
The limited resistance of the Halcyon really should have been addressed on the Flight, and I did suggest to Stac Support that perhaps this could have been done on the Halcyon with supplementary friction pads as per my old spin bike. The pads would be fixed slightly inboard of the magnets and would come into play at lower speeds when magnetic drag is less effective yet the magnets are close to the rim. My theory is that the pads would cause the same deflection as the magnetic drag and that this would be picked up by the existing power sensors in the arms so a change that should be relatively easy to implement.
As for the lack of weights on the Flight, it is interesting that extra weights were provided for the Stac Zero to improve the road feel. Trying to go without the weights might well prove to be a step too far for the Flight requiring the optical sensor, and the magnets to move in response presumably to each pedal stroke rather than wheel revolution – and I really can’t see that ending well!
I went without the weights on my Halcyon and it worked surprisingly well. You can distract yourself by watching the magnets pulse (you’re right, they move with the pedal strokes), and only occasionally if my cadence went down for some reason did I wish I had put the weights on because it started to feel choppy. Simply forcing my cadence up solved the problem.
I replaced my Halcyon with a Tacx Neo 2 last month for one particular reason. I had recently tried a couple of times with the Halcyon to simulate rides I had done outdoors. I started with mountain bike rides because they have the long climbs that I wanted to simulate. Of course, my road bike is mounted on my trainer rather than my mountain bike, and it has much higher gearing, so I was a little worried that I wouldn’t actually be able to do it, but it turned out that I shouldn’t have worried. I was able to climb up the “mountains” much faster than I actually could on my MTB or gravel bike, and gave up on one ride after an hour when I had done all three major climbs with only descent left (and of course, Halcyon can’t really simulate descents). In reality it would have taken me about 1:45 to get where I gave up. The Tacx does a better job of ride simulation (to the point where I haven’t dared do a mountain bike ride for the same reason I was worried about the Halcyon). I don’t really understand why trainers force you to shift in simulations (except having to think about what gear to use for some reason makes the time pass much faster), since they could just as easily force you to meet power rather than gradient targets.
In my Halcyon experience in fact the weights are needed only on test sessions where the trainer will be set in resistance mode and you might be forced to use unoptimal cogs. A chance there is that this can be set up differently via the app, I am using the standard config, never got into testing that. Otherwise, top gear and ERG mode and you’re fine without.
Yup, it started shipping a few weeks back. And here’s my full in-depth review published last week: link to dcrainmaker.com
Which…is a good reminder – I’m going to close this preview post to new comments, merely to keep the discussion a bit more current and focused. Feel free to continue the conversation of course over on the final in-depth review (4iiii is also responding to comments there too).
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This looks really interesting, and good to see they’ve listened and acted (quite significantly) on all the feedback.
BTW is this a typo in your ‘key tech specs’ list?
“Wheel-on trainer, requires metal wheel (not carbon frame)” – suggest ‘frame’ should read ‘rim’
Thanks!
Interesting and nice to see that this “so simple that it is genius” technology survives. Kudos to 4iiii for seeing the potential and picking up Stac.
Typo?: “– Wheel-on trainer, requires metal wheel (not carbon frame)” Should read “carbon rim” ?
Cheers,
Steven
Yup, good catch. Thanks!
This is pretty cool…now I need to replace my rear hub…a DT Swiss unit that sounds like a string of firecrackers shooting off.
On another note, are you doing a preliminary look at the TrueKinetix bike? I would like to know more about the 20% power loss on a trainer.
There’s an easier fix: never stop pedalling!
What are the chances they will have some sort of an upgrade kit for existing customers I wonder. I went from basic, to power, and almost pulled the trigger on the halcyon before they got bought out.
STAC customer service has always been amazing to deal with.
As an owner of the power meter version of the STAC, I’d also like to see this option.
Anyone from 4iiii reading these comments, it sounds like several of us would be interested. I happen to like the obnoxious orange.
It looks like it still mounts the same, so they COULD sell an upgrade kit… but 75% of the pain I had upgrading my basic STAC to the Halcyon was in futzing with mounting it correctly. I think there’s a trade off they have to manage between rewarding an early adopter with the latest and greatest with lower prices, vs. punishing an early adopter with having to install the resistance unit again.
My advice to you: the power unit is a sweet spot. Not too complicated, very functional.
My advice to 4iiii: offer an upgrade price to early adopters but just trade out the Fliiiight for the earlier STAC unit – don’t make people deal with swapping resistance units.
Hi Graham,
Yes, you will be able to retrofit your old trainer with our new resistance unit. This will become available after the product starts showing up in stores in October. Stay tuned for more details!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
Hello Scott,
As an early owner of first the STAC, followed by the Halcyon upgrade kit, I would rather have a swap with a full Fliiiight trainer than fidling again with an upgrade kit. Would also look much cooler than an orange STAC frame with a black resistance unit.
Greetings,
Ringo
Thanks. The upgrade from a Halcyon would interest me. Could you use the wheel weights with the new resistance unit? What would that do for road feel?
Hi Ringo and Steve,
Ringo, for now we will just be offering the upgrade kit consisting of a resistance unit but appreciate your feedback. It’s awesome to see that you’ve stayed with the trainer along its entire development path!
Steve, you could use the wheel weights but the Virtual Inertia that is now included in the firmware makes up for the wheel weights not being there. You should be getting a smooth riding experience without the hassle of the weights.
Thanks for the questions and feedback!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
Looking forward for upgrade news! It seems that upgrading to the new resistance unit should be less of a hassle than before.
Any idea on price range, or if it will be a trade-in program (for resistance unit – I for one, like the orange trainer)?
There will be an upgrade kit for current owners. The user will simply remove the old unit from the frame and bolt the new one in place. Should be out after the initial orders for the fliiiight are filled.
One small correction hear, the current FW might get confused with wheel weights in for the optical sensor so we actually would not recommend trying the Fliiiight with wheel weights. Sorry for the misinformation!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
+4 to STAC & 4iiii for offering a resistance unit upgrade for existing customers — AND for designing a good modular system that allows for upgrades like this. I’m looking forward to riding on it.
Hi Scott,
Any way that we can get on a mailing list to hear about the future upgrade?
Hi Scott,
Does 4iiii have any update on the release date?
Scott, Thanks for the info! Like the others, any way you can get an update about the upgrade kit?
Graham, we have a waiting list on the website at: link to 4iiii.com It’s currently oriented towards full trainers, but once we’ve caught up with demand, we’ll be launching an upgrade.
Do they have a solution for the trainer if you want to keep a rear disc wheel on the bike?
Wonder if some reflective tape work ?
I thought that might be the solution but wondered about how accurate the tape would need to be (it would need to go on both sides of the disc).
For now, a spoked wheel should be used. We’ve tested a very wide range of spoke patterns, shapes and sizes that have all provided a smooth road feel. Thanks for the question!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
I’m a very satisfied Stac Halcyon user (and I second the comments about great customer service!) so I’m excited to see things moving forward under the 4iii’s umbrella. I won’t be upgrading because the traffic-cone aesthetic works in my unfinished basement and I already have a trainer-wheel with weights that I swap out. But this looks like a great option for new customers.
Awesome update!! I have the first generation STAC trainer, which they upgraded with newer parts twice for me in the first couple years. These were really hardworking and passionate guys and I am happy to see their ideas grow so large.
Helli Ray, i am a bit confused this metal definition. Will it work with Al alloys? I always thought that magnets will not work on Al materials but on steels only.
The rim cannot have any steel in it. A non-ferrous wheel (aluminum) is what you need.
The STAC Zero support site is still operating. FAQs are answered here:
link to stacperformance.zendesk.com
Any metal. Anything that conducts electricity well. This does not work by “attraction”, but by inducing a current in the rim to produce heat. The rim is actually warmer than room temperature after a ride (although not excessively so).
In fact, you’re much better off if there’s no steel anywhere. I had the original Kickstarter STAC (upgraded afterwards to a Halcyon), and I had to use zip ties to keep the magnets from being attracted to the rim. I couldn’t figure out why (I knew the rims weren’t steel because I could test them with smaller magnets) until I finally realized I was using wire beaded tires, and the wire was steel. Switching to Kevlar beaded tires fixed that problem. I’m sure that the actuators in this are probably strong enough that wire beads would work, but it’s better not to have any steel around at all.
Excellent response, Paul. The earlier units were moderately compatible with steel pins/wire beads, but the Halcyon, and especially the Fliiiight won’t be compatible with any steel present, so it’s very important that you check beforehand. The self-centreing carriage moves freely enough that the magnets will pull it to one side and hold it there, while the reaction force from normal operation will push the magnets away slightly and help maintain a centred position.
Andrew
I just have to say that it is really cool to watch the progression of STAC, and how their technology and trainers continue to progress. The arms automatically adjusting is really, really cool! I do wonder about the reliability and expected lifespan of those motors. I love seeing them continue to innovate!!
So… It would work with mountain bikes?
Yes, it will work with mountain bike rims too, just not carbon ones. Thanks,
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
You said 599 is a bit much for this trainer what do you think is a better price DC? I am very much interested in the trainer but I too think 599 is a bit steep. That being said, depending on your finalreview I may get it…perfect for Zwift on Apple TV, easy to move and put away (easier than my Direto), so it might be it. My only concern is durability .
Durability is not a problem.
I’m using STAC Zero(upgraded to Halcyon) about 2 years without a problem.
I think this trainer would do super well at $499. There’s nothing wrong with $599, but it’s just a tougher landscape to compete against.
Just curious, what does $599 trainer has that this one doesn’t. Maybe I’m biased because i have a Stac Zero halcyon, but it seems than the price is competitive with others at the same level.
Maybe not the same road feel, but you have said to get the best road feel you need to go to over $1000 models. But its is absolutely silent, like nothing else on the market. Even the most expensive units can’t claim this.
it has better power accuracy (TBD i guess) than others at the same price level ($500-$700). If the claims are true, you would need to go all the way to a trainer 2x the price of this one for the same accuracy.
And yes, 7% inclination is not the best, but for probably most people it more than adequate (and if im not mistaken the halcyon could potentially do 12%).
Yes, i would love it to be slightly less expensive (that why i bought to halcyon on sale for 375, and i would buy the new one at $499 right now), but I can’t see why its a tougher sell at this price point (if i didn’t had a trainer already, this one would be at the top of my list).
I agree with Joel here. No tire wear and completely silent, probably more-than-decent power accuracy. Should blow all wheel-on trainers out of the water. So that makes it compete with direct-drive trainers which start at 799-899 or so. Bu then again, I am no DC Rainmaker…
Looks like an interesting candidate to replace my Tacx Vortex when it needs replacement
I’m very curious about the road feel comments. Would adding a bunch of weight to the wheel as in the prior version fix that? Has anyone else compared a stac to a neo or kickr for road feel?
Love it! Solves all the issues with wheel on trainers and avoids having to fiddle with a dirty drive train. It’ll be interesting to see a full review.
Utterly pointless. Wont sell many of them.
Just moved up on my list as most interesting trainer to get this year. I’m looking for something as quiet as possible for riding in my living room without spending 1300€ on a Tacx Neo 2T.
On my Kickr Snap, I’ve always preferred doing ERG instead of simulation rides in Zwift. For a large part because the Snap really gets loud/starts to vibrate in higher gears.
So I really hope that 4iiii will be able to deliver by the end of October via some German retailer.
Does this accept a wide range of wheel sizes?
The Kurt kinetic trainer I have works nicely with both my 650c bike and my husband’s 700c bike. I’ve even had a 24” kid’s bike on there, but that sounded like a small jet due to the knobby tires.
Hi Ginny,
Yes, we can accommodate a wide range of wheel sizes with no issue switching between 650c and 700c. It’s a simple process of adjusting a couple of set screws. You should also be able to get away with your kid’s bike on there too so the whole family can join in the fun!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
Scott – is there any thought to support wheel sizes down to 20″ (406 BSD)? I know it’s a smaller market, but is a very small modification given your mounting. This would be amazing for BMX race bikes, and I know I’ve talked to people looking for 20″ compatibility for recumbents, trikes, and folders as well.
Hi Craig,
Unfortunately we’ve tried riding 20″ wheels and they are too small for the Fliiiight Trainer. We appreciate your interest and we recognize the need for some riders to accommodate these wheel sizes. It will certainly be a consideration for the future for us. Thanks for your question!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
Regarding use for race warm up, what’s the biggest tire that can fit in there? Looks like it could be interesting for cyclocross warm up without wearing out an expensive tire, but the clearance looks a little tight.
Really love the concept of the 4iiii smart trainer(s).
I currently own a Kickr Snap – which is a good reference since they’re in the same price segment – so here’s what I am taking from this article: Fliiiight is way better in terms of noise emission, and it saves people a lot of time because it allows them to keep their road tyres (also, less wear). But the 7% incline on the Fliiiight is a real dealbraker because I absolutely love hard climbs.
Hope the people at 4iiii keep up the good work and manage to up that resistance on their next version.
The Clever Training link takes you to a landing page for the Vivoactive/Vivomove.
Also, once I enter Clever Training’s site from your website and add the 4iiii Fliiiight to my cart does anything else I add to the cart before purchase help support the site?
I live in a condo and got a Halcyon after my neighbor started complaining about the noise my Wahoo Snap was making. It has been almost a year and so far no noise complaints.
One issue I have is that one of the magnets always gets out of whack and rubs the rim resulting in having to constantly adjust the position of the bike. I hope this version eliminate that. Looking forward to seeing what an upgrade kit will be.
Hi Chong,
Yes, there’s new firmware for rim detection so you shouldn’t have this problem anymore. There’s also an easy “recenter” button in the 4iiii App if you run into any trouble. Thanks!
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
Its compatible with disc brake wheels (road or MTB bikes)?
You will need to swap in a trainer specific thru-axle, but yes, this should work with newer disc equipped bikes. The ones from Saris, Wahoo, Kinetic, Robert Axle Project and such should work.
Daniel,
I’ve been testing the Fliiiight regularly with a Vision Team 30 TA/disc wheel, and it has worked very well. The resistance is on par with a traditional rim brake wheel like the Shimano R500 or R11 that we would previously recommend.
Andrew
Have been thinking about getting a Kickr Core for a while but put off by the storage space I’d need for it, this looks like it will pack up really nicely and won’t take long to set up each time which is good as I am pretty time squeezed for workout time.
Hi Ray. I saw your comment about the ‘crazy robotic automated calibration’. Does this mean it doesn’t need a spin down or anything. If so that sounds great.
It doesn’t require a spindown calibration.
Are there any special requirements about trueness of the rear wheel?
Hi Chris,
Nothing in particular but we recommend using it with a trued wheel for the best experience. The closer to true the better but there is some wiggle room,
Scott Cooper
Product Manager, 4iiii Innovations
What are the clearances like? Enough to just run MTB 29×2.3 or gravel 700×40 without swapping tires/wheels? That would be a plus for me, just stick the same bike onto the trainer!
Any info on EU availability and price?
Any word on UK or EU suppliers? It’s not on clevertraining.co.uk.
Thanks!
I’ve asked around at a few of the large German retailers and none plan to offer the Fliiiight.
Seems like EU customers are screwed and the lauch will be North America only. (International shipping + VAT + customs is not a real option…)
CT is working with 4iiii to get listing information for CT UK/EU.
Any update on UK/EU availability for the Fliiiight? Thanks.
Maybe someone can illuminate what is going on with the max incline simulation number for me? I feel like I just don’t understand the number in relation to the trainers watt number. Going up a grade requires more watts, based on your speed and weight and grade – so doesn’t the ‘max incline’ basically translate to the max watts the unit can produce, and then based on your weight, different speeds would have different max inclines? Do different companies use different reference speeds? It seems like you can find a 2000 watt trainer with a 20% max incline (cycleops hammer direct) and then this one is 2200 watt with a 7% so I feel like I’m missing some fundamental portion of what is going on or not understanding the numbers in the features descriptions. Hardly matters for my skill level, but I like understanding what the deal is.
You’re pretty close.
Max incline for most trainers is based on a given rider weight, usually 70-75kgs for most companies specs. Speed can and does play into things a bit, but honestly that’s a heck of a lot harder to quantify on spec sheets due to variations in gearing. So most companies then demonstrate it as a power curve. Tacx for example has power curves on their site, and I think Elite does somewhere too.
Hi,
I’m wondering.. how big is the difference with the more expensive trainers in power/ability to train…
I’m going to start training for Mallorca 312… Will I be fine (73kg..) training with this trainer?
Tried writing into 4iiii but didn’t get a helpful response on this. I have a 90mm alu+carbon rear wheel – can I use this with the Fliiiight now that I don’t need a rear wheel weight?
I’ve got a STAC Halcyon, so I’m aware of the alu brake track requirement. I’m just wondering if I need a separate box rim rear wheel, or will the spoke sensor reach down enough to give clearance for a 90mm rear wheel.
Thanks!
Brian,
It’ll be hit or miss with 90mm wheels. I was able to get it to work with a FLO 90 with some adjustment and experimentation, but the wattage was limited (due to offsetting the resistance unit from the brake track). We can’t guarantee it’ll work, but there is a possibility. A 60mm wheel is much more likely to have success.
Andrew
I got a good deal on a Halcyon on clearance. I like it, but the wheel weights and the centering are a bit of a hassle. I particularly like how it doesn’t put any wear on my tires, it’s quiet, it doesn’t shake the whole house, and it folds up to fit under the couch. I remember in your review of the Halcyon, you found that the ride feel was pretty good. Comparable with a $600 trainer, but not an $800 trainer. Here, it seems like you don’t quite feel that the Fliiight is as good as other $600 trainers. Is the ride feel of this worse than the Halcyon (perhaps because of the removal of the wheel weights), or is it simply that other $600 trainers have dramatically improved?
I guess my question is, is this a worthwhile upgrade from the Halcyon?
Well here we are in late October. Any sign of these units, or a full review?
Anything from 4iiii or CT about UK/euro availability?
I’m signed up on the 4iiii site for updates but they haven’t sent me anything about ordering – anyone else?
I’m keen! It’s cold and wet in the UK and I live in a top floor unit so this is really my only option. I’ve been looking for second hand Stacs but there are none here.
Thanks, Paul
No sign yet. :(
I saw one of your comments from the latest guide that you finally received a review model. Will there be an updated review soon?
Thanks DC.
Yup, a review planned in the coming weeks. I’m working through some of the other units that arrived before it. Mostly first in, first out here.
I’ve been wondering, why doesn’t the company produce a weighted wheel that goes on the bike (flywheel)? It would be easier than the weights, and simpler than the robots and software.
I see CT US now allow you to buy this with a note saying ‘Processed For Shipping in 5-7 Business Days’.
I’ve not heard anything from 4iiii themselves – and I’ve signed up with 2 different email addresses.
UK/EU news would be welcome, but I’m in the US in early December so might try to get one delivered to my hotel over there and bring it back myself.
Typically when CT transitions to 5-7 days that means they have tracking details from a manufacturer for the shipment inbound to them (or, very recent confirmation that a shipment is being prepared).
Hey. The final version is out there. There is a launch in Toronto. Please test the production unit.
Today on Clever Training they have the Fliiiight with HR bundle at 499.99. Thats 100 LESS than buying just the Fliiiight by iteslf! and with the DCR discount total is 449.00. Now if 4iiii can just agree on a shipping date………
Thanks Lance! I ordered over the weekend and was able to cancel and get this deal today. You saved me $100 and got me a free HR monitor!
Darn the discounted HRM bundle page is still showing when you search but gives ‘page not found’ when clicking through. Anyone had their order confirmed? I see Ray had an issue with it this week…
Yeah, the ‘deal’…was…uhh….not quite planned. Congrats to those who got it, CT is of course honoring your early Christmas Deal. :)
But…pro tip, the CT VIP Sale starts later this week, which gets you 20% off a single item – and you can use this code right now (FREEVIPDCR) to sign-up for the VIP program for free rather than paid. That way you’re good to go as soon as that opens shortly…very very shortly.
Sign-up Link: link to clevertraining.com
At 20% off, that brings a few direct drive trainers back into my range. I am loving the silence idea with the Fliiiight, but in comparison with my gen 1 KICKR I’m sure that anything else is considered quiet by comparison. If the 4iiii doesn’t ship reasonably soon I may change my order…..
Excellent, thanks Ray!
It was good of them to honor the deal for me. I am very excited to get my first trainer and get back on my bike! I know it’s a gamble going with the Fliiiight without a thorough review but it was too good of a deal to pass up.
Paul, where did you see that Ray had issues with it this week?
I had some issues over the weekend, and 4iiii thinks it was essentially a dorked up firmware application that put it into a weird state. I’ve got a new firmware update to apply today and they believe that’ll resolve it.
In the 5 things post.
4iiii are now quoting Black Friday as the on sale date for the Fliiiight.
link to twitter.com
I have it in my CT basket as my 20% item but haven’t decided if I’m brave enough to buy it before anyone has reviewed it.
You should buy it, and then you can review it for the rest of us!
I’ve got the STAC Halcyon and love it. I never really take the bike off the trainer so haven’t ever really worried about the magnet rub that apparently the Fliiiight fixes. Also, only had to fiddle with the weights on the rear wheel one time. I would definitely not want to be taking them off and on repetitively, which it sounds like the Fliiiight also fixes. The only two complaints I have with the Halcyon is that the cadence does not report accurately (for a while it never even did report). My understanding is the Fliiiight fixes that, as well. The other is that it literally feels like concrete with the second to second adjustment when you start a ride from standstill or transition out of ERG for a max effort in a training effort on Zwift. The Halcyon has a beta option in their app where you can increase the 7% max incline to 10%. I use it, and get no rubbing from the magnets on my rim. Then again, I never take the rim off.
I would absolutely buy the Fliiiight if the Halcyon wasn’t still so damn functional for me. I’m hoping 4iiii offers some type of affordable upgrade kit for those of us who were early adopters. At a $500 price point, for someone without a smart trainer, this would be an absolute no brainer, based on my experience.
So after a bump of five, first ride successfully in the books. A Zwift structured workout. I haven’t loaded the full data set into the DCR Analyzer yet, but looking at the data in real-time across multiple head units & power meters it looked pretty darn close.
Road-feel was roughly what I remember back in September – not terribly great. Largely ok in ERG mode, but I’ll have to tweak with it a bit in SIM mode (regular Zwift mode) to see if I can find a happy spot. More testing to come all week, along with a bit of optimizing too.
Stay tuned!
What do you mean when you say tweak? Does 4iiii allow you to change the behavior of the trainer? That would be super cool.
I mean dork a bit with the wheel alignment specifically. There’s also some settings in the app that I have no idea what they do yet. They’ve got fancy acronyms like “Change mV/V”
Adrian, Ray,
We’re looking at a few options to customize the experience for different riders. This will allow different people to maximize the experience for their own particular use case. As we update the app, there are a few things that we will be rolling out:
– a startup walkthrough
– getting the most from your trainer
– some additional functionality options that tweak things like ERG response
Most initial usability issues are related to a lack of understanding to how to properly use the trainer. This is something that is on us for providing to the user, so we’re going to make sure that all of the necessary information is relayed to the end user.
Andrew
Has anyone’s Fliiiight trainer shipped after ordering on clevertraining?
Not yet. I ordered on Monday the 11th. Not sure when they are actually getting them in though.
I asked CT when they would ship and they replied ‘ Unfortunately, I can’t give you an exact date as to when this will ship, as it is currently on a back order and we are not sure as to when we will be getting this in stock from the manufacturer. ‘
Given I’m only in the US until 10th December I don’t think I can risk it.
I got an email from CT today. They told me that it will be early December.
On the website they now say Januari 2020. link to 4iiii-innovations.myshopify.com.
Ooof. I ended up ordering from a UK store who said it would be shipped today and with me tomorrow, which would line up with the original 4iiii estimate but I’ve chased the store for a tracking ref with no reply so far..
@Paul W: May I ask which UK store ? I’m looking for a dealer in Europe.
@Havelaar from here: link to cyclepowermeters.com
It’s a good price for an EU seller but be aware:
* they said it was ‘in stock’ when I bought it but it turns out it’s being shipped direct from 4iiii.
* they said it would ship Wednesday for delivery Thursday – that didn’t happen – and they are now saying it will be delivered Friday.
I hope so as I’m away from Saturday for 10 days.
I finally gave up and switched my order to a Kickr Snap. I had to take advantage of that 20% off deal while I could. Should be arriving Friday. :)
I ordered from Power Meter City. Talked to them today and said they should have them today and shipped out when they receive them. Apparently they’ll be the first dealer in the states to get them.
Reading the short review on the Fliiiight was really dissappointing: if you got the statue of a Columbian pro-rider (minus the strength) and assume you only wanna do ERG, this trainer might work for you… well, thats says it all, doesnt it? 4iiii sent a demo ex to maybe 25 influencers, if their feedback was the same as yours, 4iiii will be forced to change something drastically: in its current state it is worse than the Halcyon (compare the trainer road graphs). They might respond with something drastic, for example increase the current or increase the amount of magnets in order to create better resistance and top it off with a larger battery. Considering the delay after delay (October, Black Friday, skip Christmas, thats not even realistic, say January 2020!) the 4iiii team will need the next two months to develop a product which might be intresting for a larger target group.
Johannes,
Where did you read the review at?
link to dcrainmaker.com
I’m wondering what’s going on with the Fliiiight? Units were to ship in October, then this week and now one online retailer is saying Dec 13?
Ray said his review was pretty much ready to go at the beginning of the week pending a chat with 4iiii but here we are at Thursday and still crickets (not a slight at you Ray, I know you have many other things on the go!)
I read the mini blurb in the 5 random things post and wonder why, if it’s spec’d at 2200W it wouldn’t be suitable for more powerful riders?
Anyway, will see what is what when the review comes out as I am quite interested in this trainer.
My suspicion is that 4iiii is taking Ray (and other reviewers’) feedback seriously and making any software changes to keep improving the trainer before official release. Which is good and what you want to hear from a company, but the delay after delay is making me reconsider my pre-order. I’m worried that by the time it gets released, winter will be almost over so I might have to settle for a different trainer.
This is exactly what I was thinking as well, based on the subtle “hints” Ray was dropping about getting in touch with 4iiii before his review goes up. I agree this is a good thing and leads to an overall better and more stable product at release.
I have been using my Cycleops Fluid2 dumb trainer for years with power meter pedals so another month or so won’t hurt, other than tire wear I guess (haha) but I have a fresh set ready to go for the spring anyway :-)
I had a call with them a night or two ago. I think two nights. In short, the target market for this trainer is folks with FTP’s of about 200w. I exceed that.
Which, doesn’t mean it won’t work for me. It’s just that it won’t work as well for me. It works better in TrainerRoad than Zwift.
However, as part of that call they had a tweak for me to try via software config setting that will give me more power/resistance. They had put a fair margin of into how close the magnetic arms get to your wheel rim. They’ve been testing out an option to reduce that margin (which doesn’t impact safety, but could on a non-true wheel get close enough to touch). By using that setting it’ll significantly improve resistance. Though, it won’t really help Zwift, since in that scenario for SIM mode (not ERG mode, it’s fine there), it’ll also reduce road-like feel.
With the DCR Open House this weekend and Black Friday stuffs and recommendations I haven’t had a chance to try it. Hoping tomorrow.
200w. Yeah, not ideal. I exceed that too…
Good to hear about the tweak to improve resistance. I don’t Zwift at all. I tried it, wasn’t too keen TBH, just not my cup of tea. I prefer more structured workouts on the trainer without the temptation to chase rabbits when I’m supposed to be holding a certain wattage, haha. I’m a TrainerRoad guy so ERG mode is most important to me.
Thanks for the follow-up Ray. Good luck with the open house this weekend!
Cheers
I don’t zwift and only use sufferfest. My power is right around 200. Can you clarify on “target market for this trainer is folks with FTP’s of about 200w.” Does it mean if my workout intervals goes into 300+ w, then the trainer won’t provide enough resistance?
200w FTP doesn’t sound right. I’ve been using a Stac Zero for a couple years, riding many hours at 200-300w and many sprints at 500-800w, as my fitness waxes and wanes. It’s mechanically a bit fussy to keep aligned, and I’ve given up on the wheel weights, but it’s worked OK. I’ve ordered a Fliiiight to upgrade to smart trainer, and I expect it’ll work fine with my level of power. Perhaps there will be some teething pains as they work out the software control system for different wheels, and maybe it’s not right for someone with a lot more power, but the technology is sound.
Will report once I get it.
200w is indeed the target point. Remember, unlike STAC, this doesn’t leverage weights.
Note that 200w FTP doesn’t mean it’s limited to 200w, rather, it means that’s the target market. So that 200w FTP athlete may do sprints up to say 500w, or may do work at 300w. But it’s not designed for a 300w FTP person who is doing double or triple that.
Further, the other challenge is attaining those wattages across a broad cadence range. For example, you might be able to coax 800w out of the unit, but only at a crazy high RPM, not something like 90-100RPM, and certainly not lower.
Well – it has arrived. Unboxing photos here: link to photos.app.goo.gl.
There was a firmware update to v3.6 to do.
I am having issues with it clamping too hard onto my wheel – the wheel is rubbing on the magnets and I’m struggling to get it to gap properly. The ‘recenter’ function in the app is clamping it hard on one side and not at all on the other. I’ll check their manuals to see what’s up.
I’m away from Saturday for 10 days so won’t be able to test it any more or respond.. sorry.
With the Halcyon you can physically move your wheel by screwing out one side and screwing in the other. I often had to do that to get things aligned right. Looking at a picture of the Fliiiight, it looks as if you can do the same thing.
Ditto with my Halycon. Axle cup is screwed all the way out on the drive side.
Initially that concerned me but after many rides with bike off/on leaving that side untouched, it’s dialed in.
I haven’t had to re-center the magnets using the app since.
Hi Paul,
If you can send us a support request at link to 4iiii.zendesk.com we’ll get things attended to. What we’re working on is a more comprehensive startup walkthrough that helps address some of the initial setup issues that you may be seeing, as well as understanding how to best use the trainer.
Andrew
New to cycling (triathlons) and have been looking for a trainer for winter use for both me and the mrs. This is where problems begin. She still has an old bike that is a 9 speed whereas I have an 11 speed, so direct drives will be a pain to always switch the cassettes back and forth. So I was looking into wheel on trainers. This really interested me as it would just make things easier without having to change tire (I know it isn’t that hard) and for the more quiet ride. As a result I did preorder it from clevertraining when they had their sale.
I have read your comments and replies and noticed that you DON”T think this trainer will be very good for individuals with FTP around 300.
First year biking and racing tri’s I had a power calculation of roughly 217 watts for 37 mins of racing in stage 2 of the tri. So I am assuming my FTP will be higher than that #. The Mrs. rides at lower power.
We would like to do both ERG and SIM modes with online apps.
Do you think this trainer will be a good option or should I cancel my order and grab another trainer like wahoo kickr snap and just deal with the tire? Or another option?
Thanks
Any updates on this? I have one on order from CT (placed when it said shipped in 5-7 business days) and have heard nothing (going on 9 days). 4iii website now says coming in January 2020?!
Any idea of when your review will post? Sounds like there are some big shifts that could change my mind…
Well, my unit arrived today. I’d so love to give a thumbs up but just didn’t get it to work yet. My issues seem to be connected with the control system and MAY get sorted out via a firmware update (fingers crossed). But the (pretty outdated) Android application doesn’t know anything about smart trainers.. the >new< 4iiii-App is, suprisesurprise, iOS-only. Does anybody know of a way for non-Apple folks to get my firmware updated?
link to 4iiii.com
that’s the link Erika from 4iiii gave me on request to their current version of the android app.
I feel also more like a beta-tester than like a consumer of a fully fledged product.
I’m going to start my 2nd day of trouble shooting now.
I mentioned to them that they should sell the perfect rear wheel directly with the trainer instead of trying to make it work with a largeselection of different wheels. Apparently they will think about it.
I second that though… or sell a wheel separately with weights pre-installed as “High FTP – setup”
No, if they sell a wheel with it the price point goes into the next bracket where there are better trainers readily available to people on IOs and Android. Due to 4iiii’s apparent inability to un-f themselves prior to releasing the unit to CT I’ve cancelled my order. And seeing the few people who have got on it describe their experiences, I’m starting to believe that I made the right decision.
I beg to differ! Offering a near silent trainer doesn’t affect the kitty box. I myself would happily pay the equivalent to a neo 2t if it would be near silent and would offer more or less the equivalent experience of a direct drive. I got two kids, age 1 and 3 and live in an apartment, silence is golden! Furthermore, I’ve seen a lot of strong Asian riders on Zwift exceeding the 200 watt target group and ignoring that market would be a costly mistake… just my two cents on this matter.
You should go somewhere where you can try a 2T. I replaced my Halcyon (Fliiiight predecessor from STAC) with a Neo 2. I don’t think it’s any louder. Most of the noise in both cases is drivetrain noise.
The Android app update is on its way. We’re doing a full refresh on the app, which is the reason that it’s slightly delayed.
For now, we can perform updates through a Chrome plugin, but there should be no need to update the firmware beyond what is supplied from the factory for the time being. We haven’t made any large changes since shipping the first units, and there’s not currently anything that would change functionally. If you are experiencing odd performance, this is something we would love to know exactly what’s causing it, so I would really encourage you to contact our support at: link to 4iiii.zendesk.com This will allow us to help correct any problems, and if it is a major bug, we’ll look at rolling it out to the larger community.
Andrew
Not precisely an ‘agile’ release.. I’m riding with an Halcyon, totally satisfied; yes the weights are crap to have to deal with, but you can do without and stay in a long gear and SIM mode. Not ideal, but if you’re training to then ride outdoors then who cares, and if you’re more a Zwift type then probably who cares at all.. :)
Apart from jokes, the only two features I would have added -apart from the crappy weights- are:
1- a physical button to wide open the magnets when you want to take your bike off
2- a EliteQubo-like release handle on the gear side to instant free your bike
After all, one of the selling points here is that you can train and ride your bike, bike on and bike off, effortlessly.
Silent, no wheel consumption, you keep your wheel on, it promises to take care of road feel aspect, you can put on/off whatever bike you own disregarding the powermeter they sport and still do the next workout with consistent power..
I use it for maintenance as well -actually I’ve recently assembled a bike on it- and of course it’s super convenient to regulate the rear mech as you can open the arrays and let the wheel spin free.. Multi-purpose, in a way.
It just deserved a physical button and a lever for me to do the upgrade.
I see the Fliiiight ships a 2 hours battery.
That’s astonishingly low! I bought mine 2+ years ago and I never ran out of battery or really care when to charge: I’m on the trainer a 4/5 Hours per week and charge every when I happen to remember every couple of weeks or so. I’d say I’ve got 10 hours rocking approx.
2 hours only means charging every single time.. :-/
The Halcyon functions while charging. After I had a battery failure once, I just plugged it in to a big USB battery and didn’t worry about it any more. I assume you can do the same (either battery or a plugged in power brick) with the Fliiiight.
Yup, spot on. That said: Mine shuts off after approx 3min riding when not plugged in, setting the resistance to zero instantaneously. Most probably a hardware failure that 4iiii will correct when i contact them tomorrow (Today is Sunday..).
Funny thing is that i ordered the Fliiiight since the Halcyon was not available any more & i read good things (w.r.t. my needs, of course) about the Halcyon.
Anyone yet whose Fliiiight is up & runniiiing without issues?
I’ve have the Fliiiight for 4 days now and because there’s no real review/information about the device anywhere, here’s my experience so far.
It’s been terrible.
Let me preface this by saying that this is my very first smart trainer and my first experience with one. I’m a tech nerd working in IT though, so that might at least count for something.
Most of the following is stuff I wrote to 4iiii support yesterday. It’s the weekend, so they didn’t reply yet. Maybe they will be able to help me with some of my problems?
I tried around 10-15 rides with it on Zwift and managed to complete just two rides without running into a breaking issue. It’s nearly impossible to do a workout for more than 10 minutes without running into problems.
Stuff I ran into once:
– The charging light started blinking green in the middle of a workout and the Fliiiight dropped connection to my MacBook. It kept blinking until I restarted it. The meaning of this blinking pattern is undocumented (link to 4iiii.zendesk.com).
– The Fliiiight stopped applying resistance and kept reporting a constant wattage to my MacBook for about 1-2 minutes, even after I stopped peddling, then suddenly started working again.
– It shipped with a broken foot (there was no damage to the packaging at all). I reported this to my retailer and they managed to order a new one from you, sending it directly to me. Shit happens, but it’s another moot point on a long laundry list.
Persistent problems:
– It just randomly drops connection to my MacBook. The only way to reset this is to turn it off an on again.
– The Fliiiight doesn’t hold a charge for more than about 10 minutes. It then just turns off. I guess the battery is defective.
– The Fliiiight’s magnets keep touching my rear wheel. This usually stops after a minute of peddling (and me cringing because it feels like it’s damaging my rear wheel), but it’s extremely irritating. It also does this in the middle of a workout sometimes when the resistance changes. I have not yet tried to adjust the bolts as described in the wheel alignment video (link to youtube.com), mainly because it was just released. To me, my alignment looks fine though. I followed the guide a link to 4iiii.zendesk.com.
Notes:
– My wheel is true.
– My rim is not magnetic.
– I’m only using my fastest gear.
– I upgraded to firmware 3.6.0 (altough it sometimes reports as firmware version “unknown”).
– Battery always shows 100% in app.
– In-App diagnostics report shows no issues while peddling.
– I’m using Zwift on my MacBook. It’s about 4 meters away from the Fliiiight. The Fliiiight’s status light flashes shortly twice. I suppose that means that my connection is good.
Let me emphasize this: The random connection drops are very persistant. I just now started a 30 minute workout on zwift and the Fliiiight lost connection to my MacBook after about 25 minutes.
This feels like a very bad beta test.
Just before my Halcyon mysteriously bricked itself in October I began to suffer short disconnections with my Win10 PC running Rouvy. In response to the bricking Erika at Stac Zero Support sent me the instructions to re-flash the firmware to v2006 – this appears to be in advance of the current recommended firmware level of v2005. My original firmware was that installed for the initial EU release in 2018 so pre-v2005.
The new firmware is a huge improvement and with no other changes has virtually eliminated wheel rub! It also sounds completely different more like the magnets may actually be moving in and out with the turning wheel. I’ve also gone into the Android app and changed the max resistance to 10%, but the key as with rollers is to honestly use a highish gear to get appropriate resistance for the gradient being tackled.
Separately to resolve the connection issue Erika got me to purchase a USB extension cable to move my Ant+ sensor much closer to the Power Meter as this apparently is always a good idea due to the potential for wi-fi interference to Ant+ signals – and my PC is only 2m from the power meter!
I have now the fliiiight since one week and I faced almost all the problems that you listed. Here below the solutions that I found for some of them:
– Drop connection with Macbook: Install an application called “Zwift Companion” on your cellphone and connect-it all your bluetooth devices (fliiight, heartrate monitor,…). I did few zwift rides without any connection issue.
– For the magnet touching the wheel: I tighted strongly the rear wheel to the support to avoid any horizontal movement of the wheel during workout. Problem seems to have disappeared.
My main issue is the trainer resistance. Happen to me 2 or 3 times, during Zwift workout the trainer resistance dropped sudently for any reason (elevation in Zwift still the same) and caused a drop of my W and speed…
When this happen I turned legs as crazy and the resistance bringed back….
I guess this kind of problem can be fixed trough firmware update.
When I don’t have this kind of resistance issue the trainer is pretty cool to use. I did yesterday a zwift group workout of 1 hour without any issue, it was great.
I received my Flight trainer in the mail a few days ago. I like some aspects of it a lot, like the silence and zero contact design and USB-C charging. I’ve completed two (and a half) rides so far. I’ve had a few issues, some minor and one major.
Minor: when trying a ride on battery power, the trainer disconnected from my phone (an iPhone X, running Zwift, all software in latest versions) repeatedly, usually after 90 seconds or so. I’d have to power cycle the trainer to get it to reconnect (and then it would just disconnect a minute or two later). This isn’t a big deal for me, because I don’t plan on using it on battery power, but if someone needed that function they’d be cooked. Using the Zwift companion app to connect has solved all connection issues for me (on this trainer and others, FWIW).
Minor: The magnets don’t center on my wheel when I use the app to center them (using the 4iiii app, latest firmware (3.6 I think)). One is much closer (2x) than the other. One is <1cm away and the other is more like ~2cm. I'm not sure if this affects ride quality or not. The fit with my wheel looks good (parallelism, etc.) other than centering issues.
Major: The baseline resistance of the unit is so low it's effectively unusable for Zwift. When racing on a flat, I have to spin super fast to even maintain my FTP (a modest 210w) and going beyond that is a coin flip. Sometimes the unit catches on and ramps my resistance up (but with an unpleasant lag that makes me feel like I'm leaving watts on the table and then with an unpleasant lag in the other direction when I back off) and other times it doesn't, especially on a downhill, where it's often impossible to put out enough watts to keep up, even at very high RPMs. This seems like a software problem to me, because if I manually switch over to the 4iiii app and tell the trainer to give me more resistance, the problem is basically solved. But that's not feasible, because as soon as I switch back to Zwift it goes back to low-resistance spin city on everything but steep hills. My bike is somewhat low-geared (top gear is 11t in the back, 34t up front), but I've used other trainers (like a Saris M2) and had zero issues with this at my power level.
Really frustrated with the low resistance issue–will probably return the trainer if there isn't a fix.
I loved the idea of this trainer and decided worth taking a punt as an early adopter given the tech is tested (previous STAC products).
Using all the correct stuff:
Alu wheels
Correctly setup as per the videos online.
In terms of the ride-ability the there is a huge discrepancy based on your power numbers:
For my GF who has an FTP around 150W it is passable to ride, the “virtual” flywheel does an okay job, reasonably smooth.
For me with a not amazing but passable FTP of 320-330 the ride is pretty horrendous, firstly you need to maintain around 95-100 RPM to get over 300W in your hardest gear (for me 52-11), that in itself isn’t so bad but the “virtual” flywheel at this power and speed is incredibly clunky and I would liken the feel to riding with a badly bent wheel with brake rub at points in the pedal cycle.
At higher wattages the magnets will frequently touch the rims.
There are then some generic issues with it that have affected both of us:
Random bluetooth drop out to her laptop (Zwift) and my phone (Samsung S9).
Random power off when not attached to power socket, random drop outs when connecting to devices.
For me the latter issues are simply software/firmware fixes, but the ride feel and difficulties attaining the stated wattages for me are a no-no.
A lot of my training is SS >270W or intervals at >350W which I am not convinced this device can attain with the current hardware spec (feel free to correct me on this).
I struggled to describe the ride feel for days now, but you did a pretty good job there! As if the resistance constantly changes during one single revolution of the feet (which, i’m pretty sure, it is).
Have observed everything you described + additional connection problems using ANT+ (with the dongle 20cm away from the trainer). The best results i got using the elemnt bolt controlling the trainer. But even then the Flight usually overshoots “hard” intervals by as much as 20% in the first few seconds and undershoots the easy ones.
Precision hitting prescribed wattages (in erg mode that is, with me really trying to keep a constant cadence) also doesn’t seem too stellar compared to a Flux S – but here i don’t know how much smoothing the Flux applies, since my powermeterhub can’t be used for obvious reasons. So it may be that the Flight is just the most honest trainer in this comparison, i lack experience here.
For the record: My FTP is approx. 260W and i keep the wheel spinning at somewhere the equivalent of 41km/h. Firmware v3.6 (which can only be updated via iOS at the moment – i had to ask a friend for this).
While I haven’t had the drop-out issues, what folks are seeing with respect of responsiveness and ability to provide resistance at ‘higher’ levels (as in high 200’s and beyond) is matching my experience/testing.
Review slated for Wednesday right now.
I have been following the saga of this trainer since it was announced and based on intuition and the feedback I’ve read hereI have cancelled my order for the Flight (refuse to hit i 4 times). Too bad ’cause I had a great deal with the heart rate bundle. Thankfully(?) it hasn’t shipped yet and I was able to cancel. Should have known something was amiss when a brand new product is immediately deeply discounted and bundled with other stuff to try and clear stock…
I was waiting for the full review but I was running out of time to cancel and I didn’t want to be stuck with a big paperweight. it looks like this was a case of “over promise, under deliver” or “too rushed to market”. Maybe when/if the issues are sorted, or there’s a hardware v2.0 I’ll have another look at it. I just can’t be bothered to muck about with something that much with the limited training time I have as it is. I just need things to work. The lack of resistance and consistency is a deal-breaker (my FTP, while not pro-grade is still well north of 200w)
It’s too bad because this looked promising but there is just too much uncertainty and what appears to be fiddling around and consumer beta testing to try and get it to work right.
Guess I’m back to the old dumb fluid trainer until I decide on a different smart solution, or the rains stop in May…
I bought a Halcyon on closeout. For what I use it for, it’s good. Not amazing, but good. I use it about once per week, for about 30 min. I was planning to use it more, but I guess that’s the nature of planning.
The best thing about it is the size. It’s a really convenient size. I can fold it up, and slide it under the couch when I’m not using it. It’s not big or heavy, and moving it doesn’t mean I need to re-calibrate anything.
I had intended to use it with Zwift, but I don’t use it enough to justify paying for Zwift.
I use both sets of weights, and I am a 200 FTP rider. I generally use it as a “dumb” trainer, watch a GCN workout, and shift gears to change resistance; or I use it in ERG mode.
The setup is a little annoying. I do have to spend at least 5 min setting it up and adjusting it. I alternate between the trainer and rollers. I swap out the wheel, because I don’t want the wheel weights on when I’m on the rollers. When you factor in getting dressed, swapping wheels, connecting with the app and adjusting it, that could be a 20min setup process.
The Stac app isn’t great, but it’s not bad. The 4iiii app is certainly better than the Stac one. It has a cleaner interface, and it does work with the Halcyon, but it doesn’t tell you whether or not the wheel is centered.
Controlling the resistance with my Wahoo Bolt seems to work the best. I’ve never tried controlling it with Zwift. ERG mode works fine. If I’m in my highest gear, I can raise the resistance to 300 watts before the magnets rub against the rim. If I’m in a lower gear (which I would do to keep a straighter chain line), I can go up to around 200 or maybe 250 before it rubs.
I can’t stand up on the trainer, but I’m not sure if that’s the trainer or me.
It also strikes me that they have sort of built a wheel-off smart trainer without a shell. I bet, if you opened up a Kicker Core, you would probably see a flywheel with a magnet array. This trainer has a magnet array, and it uses your wheel as a flywheel.
Anyway, I bought it over the summer. I’ll keep using it. If I want to use a trainer more, and I feel limited by it, I’ll probably buy a different wheel-off trainer. If I use it just as much as I have been, or if they do a great software update, I’ll keep it.
I must confess to being a reasonably content Halcyon user (with an FTP of around 250W). When it was fairly new my brother-in-law had a test ride, although he really liked the idea of the Halcyon, he bought a Wahoo Kickr simply because of the much higher maximum resistance available – he wanted to practice Alpine passes in the gears and cadence he would actually use. Climbing a 30% slope on the Halcyon at 90rpm on the big ring of a road bike at 2 mph (as I did today) is not realistic, and unfair to my Rouvy rivals almost all of whom will have had a much tougher time than I had. This I feel is the reason why Rouvy are yet to offer the Halcyon as an option on their list of recognised smart trainers.
Prior to the Halcyon I used a light commercial spin bike that had a lovely smooth action via a heavy flywheel with magnetic retardation – sound familiar? However, and I feel this is crucial – as the magnets descended onto the flywheel to increase retardation, there reached a point where the magnets were supplemented by a felt pad that rubbed on the rim of the flywheel. There seemed to be no wear or noise from this pad, and retardation with pad even at low speeds could be significant because ultimately this pad was part of the emergency brake.
The limited resistance of the Halcyon really should have been addressed on the Flight, and I did suggest to Stac Support that perhaps this could have been done on the Halcyon with supplementary friction pads as per my old spin bike. The pads would be fixed slightly inboard of the magnets and would come into play at lower speeds when magnetic drag is less effective yet the magnets are close to the rim. My theory is that the pads would cause the same deflection as the magnetic drag and that this would be picked up by the existing power sensors in the arms so a change that should be relatively easy to implement.
As for the lack of weights on the Flight, it is interesting that extra weights were provided for the Stac Zero to improve the road feel. Trying to go without the weights might well prove to be a step too far for the Flight requiring the optical sensor, and the magnets to move in response presumably to each pedal stroke rather than wheel revolution – and I really can’t see that ending well!
I went without the weights on my Halcyon and it worked surprisingly well. You can distract yourself by watching the magnets pulse (you’re right, they move with the pedal strokes), and only occasionally if my cadence went down for some reason did I wish I had put the weights on because it started to feel choppy. Simply forcing my cadence up solved the problem.
I replaced my Halcyon with a Tacx Neo 2 last month for one particular reason. I had recently tried a couple of times with the Halcyon to simulate rides I had done outdoors. I started with mountain bike rides because they have the long climbs that I wanted to simulate. Of course, my road bike is mounted on my trainer rather than my mountain bike, and it has much higher gearing, so I was a little worried that I wouldn’t actually be able to do it, but it turned out that I shouldn’t have worried. I was able to climb up the “mountains” much faster than I actually could on my MTB or gravel bike, and gave up on one ride after an hour when I had done all three major climbs with only descent left (and of course, Halcyon can’t really simulate descents). In reality it would have taken me about 1:45 to get where I gave up. The Tacx does a better job of ride simulation (to the point where I haven’t dared do a mountain bike ride for the same reason I was worried about the Halcyon). I don’t really understand why trainers force you to shift in simulations (except having to think about what gear to use for some reason makes the time pass much faster), since they could just as easily force you to meet power rather than gradient targets.
In my Halcyon experience in fact the weights are needed only on test sessions where the trainer will be set in resistance mode and you might be forced to use unoptimal cogs. A chance there is that this can be set up differently via the app, I am using the standard config, never got into testing that. Otherwise, top gear and ERG mode and you’re fine without.
So, has this been released yet? I still see only a waitlist on the site?
How about the review? I’m pretty sure the wheel-on unit reviews can wait now. ;)
Yup, it started shipping a few weeks back. And here’s my full in-depth review published last week: link to dcrainmaker.com
Which…is a good reminder – I’m going to close this preview post to new comments, merely to keep the discussion a bit more current and focused. Feel free to continue the conversation of course over on the final in-depth review (4iiii is also responding to comments there too).
Cheers!