In some ways, Pioneer can be easy to forget about in the power meter scene, though I’m honestly not sure why. They’ve consistently delivered a new round of products every year at Interbike – almost as consistent as Apple can be counted on to deliver new iPhones in September. Each year Pioneer tends to announce new crank-arm models, and roughly every other year they drop the price. All while every once in a while announcing new head units.
The real kicker here though is that their pricing scheme and power accuracy is actually quite good, albeit global product availability a little more fragmented than some companies. They’re of course used by a couple of Pro WorldTour teams, but that’s just a function of sponsorship and doesn’t imply accuracy. As for their bike computers? Well, they haven’t exactly been the Beyoncé of bike computers.
But as of today, that might be different. They’ve moved up in class.
Oh, and the power meters? They too got some long-overdue changes to add in Bluetooth Smart and a pile of other features. Here, let me explain. Actually, this quick video I put together covers everything:
Just want the text details? No problem – keep cruising below!
(Side note: Today Pioneer also announced a partnership with Wahoo that lets any Wahoo ELEMNT/BOLT user show Pioneer’s advanced cycling metrics on their Wahoo head units, for any edition Pioneer power meter ever made. I talk about that in this separate post.)
The Head Unit (CA600):
Historically I haven’t been a huge fan of the Pioneer head units. Mostly because they felt outdated and were clunky to use. They did, however, have significant features in them, and a ton of data field flexibility. With the new CA600, Pioneer is clearly aiming to address its shortcomings.
You can see right away these look a heck of a lot better. They have slight similarities to the Wahoo BOLT design in terms of the three inset buttons on the top of the unit closest to the rider, as well as the exterior button layouts.
But the Wahoo similarities get much more defined on the back: They’ve adopted the Wahoo ELEMNT/BOLT mount. This is important because it means you’ve got far more selection when it comes to bike computer mounts. Most mount companies these days make Wahoo-compatible mount plates. Of course, the aforementioned Wahoo partnership is undoubtedly making this bit easy.
Still, the majority of changes are in software – and have nothing to do with Wahoo (both Wahoo and Pioneer confirmed that Pioneer has done 100% of the software on the CA600). Right away you’ll notice the new 2.2” color LCD display. They’ve gone to a more vertical orientation than the wider orientation in the past. And now, they’ve got mapping:
The unit can do breadcrumb trail maps, turn by turn maps, as well as cue sheet directions. Routes can be downloaded from Strava Routes or Ride With GPS. The company says you’ll get course profiles (elevation), off-course alerts, POI’s, and turn by turn messaging. The feature wasn’t enabled yet on the unit I test rode, so I can’t really say how well that piece works yet.
However, they did note that the off-course routing will be similar to Wahoo in that it gives you the direction of your course/route, but won’t give you street-level re-routing to get back on course (compared to something like a higher end Garmin/Sigma/Hammerhead unit that will give you newly generated street names to get back on course).
Where they go beyond their competitors is around friend tracking during a ride. Sure, Garmin and Wahoo both allow you to see where your friends are on a map. But Pioneer also allows you to see their data (up to three riders worth). I didn’t have any friends on my test ride (though you can see the screen on my test unit in the video), but here’s what it’s supposed to look like:
In addition, they’re rolling out Strava Beacon integration (that’s Strava’s Live Tracking platform), as well as Strava Live Segments will be included too.
Like past Pioneer units, you’ll also get all of the advanced cycling metrics around force direction as well. You can see this as I ride along where the bottom of the screen is showing the forces of each pedal stroke.
Similarly, you’re going to get a pile of WKO4 specific training metrics. I wasn’t able to capture these easily out on my test ride (just like my above photo during my ride came out so-so due to the harsh sun). So here’s a slide showing them much better:
(Once back in the Netherlands, the more dreary weather will cooperate for better outdoor mid-ride photos)
In addition to supporting all the standard sensors for ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart (including ANT+ FE-C), they’re doing some crazy cool ANT+ to Bluetooth Smart rebroadcasting of the power meter signal. This means that if you have an existing Pioneer power meter that’s ANT+ only, the CA600 will actually re-broadcast it via Bluetooth Smart so that 3rd party apps can tap into it via Bluetooth Smart.
For lack of anywhere else to stick it – here’s a cool overview of all of the screens you can add in. Keep in mind that you can customize all of them. So this is just like a sampler platter.
Now I would caution that the very early pre-production unit I rode with doesn’t look anywhere near as clear as these screenshots. You can see it a bit in the photos above, but keep in mind that taking photos of almost anything in the harsh desert sun is tough. Also, Pioneer noted that the unit I had was hand-built and hasn’t been tuned for contrast/brightness/clarity yet.
Finally, one of the most interesting technical differentiators they’re rolling out is the inclusion of A-GPS. That’s assisted GPS, and is often used by phones in denser city areas to offset the impact of poor GPS signal. Assisted GPS uses cellular towers and a slew of other data points to determine your location. It has its pros and cons though too.
But what Pioneer is doing is blending the data from standard GPS alongside the assisted GPS (A-GPS) signal from your phone. The idea being that when you ride through crappy GPS signal area (such as a city, like my recent test), you can get a cleaner signal.
I’m not aware of anyone doing this across any sports/fitness devices today. Even with Apple, their A-GPS integration is either/or. You switch over from A-GPS to regular GPS, but it’s a hard-cut (which can also have impacts too).
I’ll be interested in testing this of course. Error correction will be key here. For many conditions going with regular GPS will be better, whereas A-GPS might have limited applicability (but hugely beneficial in those cases). So ensuring that it doesn’t give bad GPS when A-GPS is crap is important too. All things I look forward to testing!
Speaking of testing, the head unit is slated to start shipping later this year in December at $359USD. To be clear, you DO NOT need a Pioneer power for it (just like you don’t need Garmin Vector to use Garmin’s bike computer). It works fully with all ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart common cycling sensors. It weighs 85g and has a claimed battery life of 12 hours.
Power Meters:
While the cool sexy news was up in the previous section, the more practical news for Pioneer power meters is down below here. They’ve now iterated to a new generation of power meters that adds in much needed Bluetooth Smart support, as well as some under the covers changes around the strain gauge design. Plus above the covers (for real) changes to the pod waterproofing to now withstand direct pressure washer forces.
Starting off with the most important bit – Bluetooth Smart, you may remember that up until now the Pioneer units have been a blend of ANT+ and private-ANT transmission. You could toggle between either mode, with the ANT+ mode being the most compatible with all bike computers on the market, while the private-ANT variant was only compatible with Pioneer’s head unit. But, with that private-ANT variant you got the more advanced cycling metrics, including the various force measurement bits. Essentially, all the stuff you see below was from the private-ANT variant:
(Private-ANT simply means they don’t follow a specific ANT+ protocol. For example, Shimano does this with Di2 – instead of following the ANT+ Gear Shifting protocol. In the case of Pioneer, the more advanced cycling dynamics protocol for power meters isn’t done yet, so they roll their own.)
In any event – all this stuff was fine and dandy, but meant that if you had something like Zwift on an Apple TV or TrainerRoad on iOS, you couldn’t connect to the Pioneer power lineup without a bunch of accessories.
Now you can.
The Pioneer power meters from here forward have new hardware in them that allows concurrent ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart. In addition, you’ve still got the private-ANT mode for the added metrics if you want those and have a compatible head unit.
Next, is some behind the scenes bits that might not be sexy, but are actually important. Pioneer has ever so subtly changed the strain gauge design for the latest generation of Shimano cranksets. Now, as opposed to using the same design for the left and right sides, they’ve shifted to having different designs for each side.
The reason? Starting last year with the latest Dura-Ace models they were seeing variances in flex from the materials that Shimano was using for the R9100 generation units, with clear differences between the left and right sides (which could and would impact accuracy). In fact, Pioneer quietly introduced this change last year with those units on those R9100 cranksets.
But this year they’re being more open about it, and also rolling it out to all their cranksets – which they believe gives the greater accuracy across the board on their lineup.
Of course, this little tidbit is actually a somewhat big deal – and something a number of other power meter companies have been grappling with since the Shimano change last year in the new models.
Last up on the changes docket is an increase to the waterproof spec of the units. They’ve increased that to IP66 and IP68 water resistance. The main goal here was protecting against direct water pressure washers. I suspect this came from their work with multiple WorldTour Pro teams, who frequently use such tools for cleaning bikes.
As for availability and such, the Shimano Dura-Ace and Ultegra units will start shipping in November, at the same prices as before (see below). They’ve got both pre-installed kits and kits where you send in your crankset and they install it for you.
They will be shipping this year’s model with a red colored cap, though there are 6 other accessory colors you can get instead if you want.
Updated App:
Just a super quick note since it crosses both of the above sections, they’ve redesigned the app to work with both the power meters as well as the head units. The new app can connect directly to the power meters to not only tweak various settings, but also display real-time power from the power meters. Most notably, the pedaling metrics:
You can also see above the changing of the data fields from the app.
In addition, the app contains many of the details from your workouts as well. Here’s a handful of screenshots from Pioneer:
I didn’t get a chance to fully test out the app, but certainly plan to in the future.
Wrap-Up:
Overall I think this is a very strong showing for Pioneer at Interbike. Rolling out a pile of new products including much-needed updates to support Bluetooth Smart on their power meters, alongside a much improved head unit. And of course that sidesteps the equally important step of having Wahoo Fitness adopt/implement the Pioneer pedaling metrics over on the Wahoo ELEMNT/BOLT head units. That’s huge for Pioneer users, especially ones that already have Pioneer power meters.
Pioneer has always done a solid job of making accurate products, so I’ll be looking forward to seeing whether that continues to hold true with the latest generation of units later this year when I can start testing them. Similarly, I’m hoping that maybe we’ll see some of the influence from Wahoo trickle down to Pioneer’s software group for the head unit, focusing on simplistic and ease of use. At present, things seem to be headed in the right direction for the new CA600.
Look for a review from me later this year, once both are ready to start poking at in more detail.
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I just replaced a Pioneer PM with a Stages a few weeks ago. If I knew his was coming, I’d have stayed with Pioneer. I’ve had two of their power meters and they have been very reliable.
I’m glad to see they are staying current. The new head unit is impressive.
For the head unit, both Wahoo and Pioneer use Android as the base OS on their units. Guessing they are both using lots of the same open source frameworks which makes the units seem similar.
For their updated smartphone app. Any word on when they will support android? They promised android support last year when they announced the app but it never came.
Hi
2 questions:
1) Does the new headunit work with the old Pioneer Power Meters and still get the advanced cycling dynamics (12 points recording pr. rotation) ?
2) Any news of better supply in Europe ? I cant find anywhere in Europe that sells any Pioneer Power Meter products ?
Thanks
Need a deeper dive to determine whether the CA600 is worth replacing my Garmin 1030. Having to use Strava for live tracking is quite a bummer. Glad to see turn-by-turn but rerouting could be a significant gap. Still want a bezel-free, slimmer, full function bike computer. Pioneer pedaling dynamics are game changing for me to the point that I use a CA500 beside the 1030 on solo rides.
Any chance the new head unit displays Varia radar? I’m guessing not, but it appears to be one thing that keeps a lot of people staying with Garmin. Seems like a no brainer.
I have a superseded left leg pioneer. It has one big issue. Massive lag broadcasting ant+ data – usually 5+ seconds. And this is with a magnet. Its even worse when you just use the internal accelerometers. The 4iiii before it never had such a problem. The issue does not exist with private ant transmissions. I wonder if that has been fixed?
Ray, regarding the above ANT+ lag issues, I’m not the only one reporting that problem, but I just deal with it.
If you test the new updated Powermeter. I’m guessing you’ll probably use the wahoo and a pioneer computer, but can you also incude single-leg ANT+ broadcasting to Garmin as one of the use cases?
I never saw the 5-second delays (one can easily see in my charts of those reviews that there’s definitely not that when I compare it to other power meters on the market, it reacts the same). I virtually never used the private variants, all public ANT+.
I’ve always kinda wondered why a handful of people have reported it. Curious to see if I can find a way to repro it on this generation either way.
Hi Ray, I am glad to see others reporting this 5 sec issue. From zero-starting, like a signal start, My Pioneer PM is very slow to start reporting watt value. it looks about 5 sec, (or more) . Contacted to Pioneer support and they say it is expected but I didnt understand why nobody complained about it. If some people including you, is not seeing this 5 sec and there’s some conditions to improve it, that would be really great.
I have dual sided using their private ant to their head unit (the old one) which rebroadcasts as ant+. I see no lag. (No including when using the last x seconds avg field)
Ray, my suspicion (only) is that the pioneer system was designed way back for dual with private ant as its main requirement. Then stages came along and made left-leg only popular. Splitting pioneer into single left leg was a secondary requirement? and causes the delay as its designed to function primarily paired with a right leg? Maybe its designed to wait to hear from its right leg buddy before broadcasting the ANT+ signal?
Again, a guess only.
Thank you Pioneer! What took you so long? The CA600 gives me everything I need: Strava Live segments, BT-Smart, slightly larger screen and mapping. I will be upgrading my CA500 and 9100 dual-sided PM as soon the new pioneer solution is available.
Did you get it? I just took mine out for its first ride on Saturday. It’s REALLY hard to read. The backlight is not strong enough. I did notice that it has a terrible viewing angle when I was at home, but I think I was close enough to straight on. I tried standing when I was on the bike to look at it directly, still hard to see. It’s also hard to find the backlight option in the menu (it’s under the bike settings, as in the bike profile section) but once I did I cranked it. Helped a tiny bit.
I also got mine this weekend. Set up was not as easy as it should be, it just took a little patience. The Android app is kind of wonky and I had to go through the set up prices twice to get everything to save. Customization of screens is pretty easy but wow. There are a LOT of options. Like I feel like I’ve just scratched the surface of what this thing can record.
I have the ant+ only Pioneer meter and calibration of magnets and setup was a little confusing as you had to actually enter your power meter into the computer instead of it just finding it for the pedaling metrics. But once entered it worked flawlessly.
I felt the screen was a little dark as well but I upped my setting and it was much more readable in bright sunlight. However I was wearing polarized sunglasses and when I took them off it wasn’t as “clear.”
I rode for 3ish hours with all of the bells and whistles running and battery was at 81% after. Not bad.
Are you keeping your back light on the entire time? I just bought one and it’s nice when the actual blacklight is on, but once it times out to normal I cant see anything.
While it is still relatively new in its announcement is there anyone with information on Giant Bikes new in house power meter that is coming standard on their higher end 2019 bikes? Or a potential upcoming review?
I am livid. Starting last year with the latest Dura-Ace models they were seeing variances in flex from the materials that Shimano was using for the R9100 generation units, with clear differences between the left and right sides (which could and would impact accuracy). In fact, Pioneer quietly introduced this change last year with those units on those R9100 cranksets. This explains why my power meter shows 80/20 now and one side reads much higher numbers. Pioneer kept this quiet ! Why ? I would expect them to advise all their customers of this and offer to fix it for free. I purchased mine 3.1.17 as one of the first to purchase the DA9100 dual sided. Ironically today I called them and they didn’t even mention this and all they said was for me to send the power meter to them to check it out. That means I will be about 15-20 days most likely without my crankset. I have stages, I have a quarq and I have never had issues with those power meters. They have been consistent and reliable. I am not going to comment on the Pioneer Head Unit I have, or the mobile app, or Cyclo-Sphere or their documentation quality but its really disappointing to read this today when I took a chance with Pioneer because I was told it was the best. I even called two bike shops for support today and all they said they can do is calibrations and everything else Pioneer wants you to send the cranks back. Thank you DC Rainmaker for this info since Pioneer didn’t disclose any of this. I am not the kind that posts negative or positive reviews but this got my blood pressure up.
I think there may be some misunderstanding here. Your unit already has this built-in. It’s a physical hardware change, not a software one. It’s physically a different strain gauge design that was implemented for those cranksets, including the R9100.
In the case of accuracy adjustments, the differences they were seeing were a few percent (like 2-4%), not 30-40%. The reason they didn’t want to disclose it was simple: Competitors had to figure it out themselves. Obviously, there’s no reason to disclose that to end users (no other power meter company discloses their exact stain gauge designs). It’s been obvious over the past year or so that other power meter companies have struggled with this, especially startups.
If you’re seeing 80/20 though, that’s nothing to do with this. That’s simply just something broke. That’s purely a support type item were something is horribly amiss on your unit and they need to sort it out the normal support way.
To the question of the changes in materials change, could this be leading to the L/R balance being off? I am noticing on a new Stages LR that my balance is off by 2-3% to the left compared to my old P1 pedals.
Exactly. I don’t know if Stages accounted for it, though, it trended well for me against both Vector 3 and Assioma. I think I even have some P1 sets in there.
It would be great if you could add alert tone change and alert volume control to your feature eval check list for computers. There are a lot of older riders who would benefit from these features. I have asked Garmin for alert tone/volume control and haven’t gotten any real answer from them. If experts like yourself started asking for these features it could help make it happen sooner. I would consider dumping my Edge 1030 for another brand computer that provides Varia RTL510 alerts that I can hear.
I have a left side Pioneer PM that has worked flawlessly for the last 2 years. So thumbs up for Pioneer.
To the question of the changes in strain gauges due to the materials change, could this be leading to the L/R lance being off? I am noticing on a new Stages LR that my balance is off by 2-3% to the left compared to my old P1 pedals.
Yes, I see, if that is what Von Schlarb referred to. Yes, chainstay clearance is an issue with a number of frames. I did not know that Trek road bikes are affected too, but I looked at the newish Trek Checkpoint SL gravel bike and there is virtually no clearance ‘at all’, so even the tiny 4iiii pod (which I believe is lower profile than both stages and pioneer) will not fit.
dizpark, sorry am just seeing this but John said it better than I could. Trek is notorious for lack of clearance between the cranks and chainstays. The previous version has a Trek compatability chart on their site. I’d just love to see it updated with the newer year models so I could know from them for certain.
Anecdotally, I have an Emonda SLR with the ‘old’ R8000 Pioneer PM and it needs a 1 mm spacer between the crank arm and the BB bearing to clear the chainstay.
That said, I’ve been so happy with the reliability and performance of the Pioneer that I ordered this newest Bluetooth enabled model and am expecting it to fit with room to spare + no spacers.
Hi, Ray. This must be Christmas v3.0 (with Eurobike being Christmas V2.0 one Christmas being V1.0). I’m mega jealous of tech waters in which you swim and the backed goods The Girl provides you at home!
Well the CA-600 be a viable option for people using power meters other than Pioneers? You mentioned in the video that with CA-600 you can record data at faster sampling rates. Do other PMs, like my PowerTap G3 hub transmit data and at faster data rate than my Garmin records? While pedal dynamics hold no interest for me, a higher data rate and other power metrics not available with Wahoo or Garmin are interesting.
Maybe a comparo between the CA-600 and the new Stages head unit offerings might be in store. The two seem the replete with training metrics and maybe training plans?
Does this mean that the new power meters will be able to accept firmware upgrades via the app? Current gen Pioneer PM user here and that is one area I was curious about.
All of the other stuff is great as I am also a Wahoo Bolt user.
I just looked on the Pioneer site, and it now says under the new Ultegra dual leg power meter – link to pioneerelectronics.com
Cyclo-Sphere Simplicity
Installation and setup are a breeze with the Pioneer Cyclo-Sphere Control App. Manage everything – power meter functions, mode switching, magnet calibration, zero calibration, pedal copy and firmware updates simply with our intuitive iPhone or Android interface. It really doesn’t get any easier.
“Android” interface. Still no app. Pioneer has been talking about their Android app since before this computer was announced but there is still nothing. And that’s the only reason I haven’t pre ordered this computer. Hopefully by release they will have it? Maybe that’s why they have pushed the release back twice?
Does it concurrently broadcast private-ANT along with either ANT+ or Bluetooth Smart? It is the force direction/pedalling efficiency metrics which makes Pioneer attractive (at least for those of us trying to figure out injuries on one side) and we would want to be able to see that on a Pioneer or Wahoo computer while still connecting to Zwift etc. Can it do that? In your review, it sounded like private-Ant is an either/or option to concurrent ANT+/Bluetooth Smart.
My understanding from discussions with them is that it’ll broadcast one ANT variant along with Bluetooth Smart, but it won’t dual-broadcast both ANT variants.
Seems like the app will only support Bluetooth connections. So will be useless for those of us with older pioneer power meters. So even if your phone has Ant hardware built in, no power meter connection is possible
Does the pioneer on the map page display the speed of the cadence and heart? I can not wait for this option in Garmin. The map page has only a map view. There is no define additional data for display.
Every Garmin I’ve ever used (Edge 705, 800, 1000) allowed up to 2 data fields on the map page. That’s what I have on my 1000 currently. You’re waiting for something that already exists.
I’ve been wanting to leave the Garmin 1030 due to some major issues they just don’t care to fix (remote disconnects, the dreaded delamination of the screen, etc). However the one thing that keeps me with Garmin is:
1. Custom maps. I don’t want to create a ‘route’ or huge single gpx file to represent a large mountain bike trail network every time I travel somewhere. This is better done with a custom map, which the Garmin allows me to do with 3rd party software after gathering all the GPX files of my local trail networks. Is there any way of loading up a large network of trails to overlay on top of Openstreetmaps, as it’s not always up to date?
2. No plans to show street names? (likely a deal breaker for me, same as Wahoo).
3. Any word if this will do custom apps, like Xert?
4. Will these fancy power metrics work with Stages cranks?
5. This will connect to ANT+ ? If I understand this preview it will, but not while BLE is connected for any other device?
6. Any tests done with full finger gloves, or water?
I have the same problem here in Denmark. Cant find anywhere that sells Pioneer Power Meters. I will be buying my new Pioneer headunit and Power Meter in the US.
I had a Pioneer kit installed on an SG 9100 crank last July. It had a very substantial power imbalance – like 55/45 left-right. I wound up shipping it back and they claimed they recalibrated it, which seems to have fixed the problem. Could they have installed newer designed strain gauges back then?
Interesting. I’ve got the new SBT-PM9100 installed on a brand new dura ace 9100 crank and I am having power balance issues. If I pedal with my left leg only it’ll display 100/0 left/right balance as expected, but if I pedal with my right leg only it fluctuates between 10/90 to 3/97 left/right balance. I have zero calibrated it several times and cannot get it corrected.
But absolutely nothing for android. No information on if they can connect to older Pioneer power meters that are only Ant. (Many android phones have ant chipsets built in and very easy to get an OTG cable to plug a ant stick into an android phone)
They love talking about their athletes on their facebook page but anything technical or updates on their actual products? Nope. Plus if you look at how they promote their athletes they only seem to use their power meter as a basic left right power meter and ignore all the extra data pioneer can give. You would think they would want to promote that, but no….
BTW they promised this whole training assist in the past with training plans but that seems to have only been released for ios users: link to bikerumor.com
(Seemed to be indications they would use their advanced functionality for pedal stroke training)
As a basic true left/right power meter, they seem great, not so sure they care much about the advanced functionality.
Hi Ray, does the new CA-600 head unit require you to set up each bike individually, or does it use a pooled sensor approach, similar to newer Garmin units?
Has anyone managed to get the auto bike swap to work on the CA600? I enable it, but it won’t automatically switch even though the only 2 sensors it can see are on an alternative bike to the one currently set!
I have a ANT+ Pioneer since last year. I am so happy with it but I think their app for IOS is not in world wide store. I can not find it at least. I have been asking them via email, via social media if they have any plans to make this app downloadable world wide but unfortunately, I don’t get any answer.
Do you have any updates regarding application availability world wide?
Hi
The Pioneer apps are not in the Danish store either. But there is a workaround until the release them worldwide: link to imore.com
You can then install the apps. But you will have to change app store each time the apps are updated to get the updates.
Also – I was told the all the first batch of SGX-CA600 is already sold out and next stock will be in february.
Looking forward to your review of the CA600. Got mine out the other day and…unintuitive UX, which I can live with. Back light WAY too dim, which I really can’t. To read any data on it, I had to really look hard, which isn’t exactly safe when you’re out on the road. I need to be able to get the info I’m looking for at a quick glance. It’s possible mine’s defective, and I’ve contacted Pioneer support to see if they can fix it through a firmware update, else I’m going to have to make another Clever Training return. Poor guys, I’ve had a defective power meter, and now this, have to go back to them.
It wasn’t a bright sunny day, either – it was overcast and rainy. I was trying to figure out if it’s a transflective display, as this was a problem the Vivoactive HR had. The back light was strong enough if the light level was low, and in bright light, was fine because it was front-lit in that scenario and looked great (Garmin’s wearable displays, I think, actually look their absolute best in direct sunlight). But in mid-level light you had to strain to see it. There wasn’t enough light in the front to create enough contrast, but there was too much light for the weak back light to overcome.
Note, I did (eventually) pull off and find the back light control and adjust it. Dang setting is in the bike profile section. Who thought that was where it should go? But even at its highest setting it was a no-go. Wondering if you’re having the same problem, Ray.
I have mine too, UI is similar to the 500, bit off a pain to get is setup how you like, but once its setup plain sailing and a nice unit. Had the same issue with regards to contrast, but turning up the brightness helps a lot.
I see in a lot of the press releases it has Strava Beacon, but could not find it – hoping for some exciting firmware updates to come.
Does anyone else have issues with speed when data is uploaded to Strava – mine fluctuates up and down a lot. Speed is smooth in TP and Cycle-sphere, and other devices never had a problem with strava so it seems to be an issue between CS and Strava. Bit annoying – hope they fix it!!
Ah! Hopefully you’ll be getting one for a full review Ray? Not at bad unit overall with some nice features… Only issues so far for me:
Screen contrast could be better (I’ve got used to wahoo)
Doesn’t seem to auto select bike
Speed data glitches in strava
Can’t have celcius and miles at the same time!
Can’t have 20min and 60min max power data fields…
Hi, I’m a Pioneer SGY-PM90 owner, currently using a Garmin Edge 820. I’m extremely dissatisfied with my Edge, mostly due to poor battery performance, and I’m looking to replace it with something. I’m desperate to find reviews on the new SGX-CA600 but it seems nobody has one yet.
The one “killer feature” that keeps me on Garmin is the ability to create my own workouts, for free, without paying for third-party services like Today’s Plan or TrainingPeaks. Pioneer’s website is vague, but it states, “The Pioneer Cycle Computer provides three options for building and completing your interval trainings: Pioneer Training Assist®, Training Peaks and manual setup, which allow you to conduct customized intervals and FTP tests.”
Can anyone comment on this? Can I actually create my own workouts? Is it easy to do? Can I schedule my own training plan? Can I adjust the % based on FTP? Help!
Create a free user on cyclo-sphere.com and use the mobile website. Then you can see what you can create. Pioneers training is not great but I think it is ok – and free.
You can pretty much create what you want. And if you have the CA600 I think it is much easier because you have the cyclo-sphere control app which works great.
I get my CA600 tomorrow ?
I like the unit, not as smooth and sweet as the BOLT yet, but I’m sure the updates will improve the unit as time goes by [Infact the first update came out last night for me]
In regards to training, its kinda a stand alone unit. You can upload from trainingpeaks, or cyclosphere training assist. Or you can program on the unit which is pretty easy for basic intervals. Scheduling only via. TP if I’m correct – or just select your favorite interval set on the unit.
hello Scott. Im about to pull the trigger for this unit… but im not 100% sure, because there are no reviews at all… Now that you have tried it, would you still choose this instead of the bolt? Thanx for the help
I’d like to know anyone’s experience on this vs Garmin Edge 1030.
I assume this unit does *not* do custom maps?
Also, does this unit do anything good with Stages Power Meters? (I’ve already invested them into all my bikes).
Or does it only make sense to get this unit if you have Pioneer power meters?
What I mean is that I can download topography maps from gpsfiledepot.com or create my own maps for Mountain bike networks, and load them to the device. I’m not referring to loading a single GPX of a previous ride. I can do this with my Garmin, but I can’t stand how buggy all my Garmin devices are.
Have you used the Pioneer computer with any non-Pioneer power meters? I assume it still works fine but just gives basic power and L/R efficiency if I use stages?
I dont think you can use other maps than the standard.
I have not used any other power meter than Pioneer. But it should not be any problem. You can read here what info you get with ant+ power meter: link to pioneerelectronics.com
Look under spec and Ant+ power meter.
It comes with contrast/brightness at only 1 and that is a little low.
I have set it to 6 when riding indoor.
I have tried it outdoor in very bright sunshine so I don’t know if it needs to go all the up to 10 outdoor.
I can see all screens perfectly- even the one with 15 datafields.
Also just found out that it can pick up speed from my Wahoo Kickr so now I can have distance when riding indoor. The CA500 could not do that. ?
I have decided to go with Wahoo Element Bolt which is providing the functionalities which I am looking for, Pedaling efficiency and force vector.
It is really embarrassing that such a fantastic Power meter has a bad customer service. I have been understand the availability of hardware and software in Europe but responses are simply disaster (We are working on it, soon, etc).
I think Pioneer should stop targeting only States market. They also to realize that there are people who are using their equipment in the other parts of this world.
I am having a test unit today and will test it. If everything goes smooth, it is Pioneer PM with Wahoo Bolt.
“I think Pioneer should stop targeting only States market”
My impression is that the primary market for Pioneer cycling products is Japan. After taking a quick look at cyclo-sphere, everything there is clearly google-translated from Japanese. The overwhelming amount of information I’ve found regarding the CA600 is from Japanese blogs and youtube videos.
I’ve ordered replacement parts for my power meter from pioneer.com and they are always back-ordered for weeks or months, despite no indication of this when ordering. The links in my order confirmation email don’t even work.
IMHO the only fair assessment of their “targeting the United States” is that there are bike shops in USA which sell Pioneer products. More accurately, there are some bike shops in USA which have access to Pioneer products through a distributor, because I’ve never seen any Pioneer products in stock in any bike shop I’ve ever been to.
Customer service for Japanese products is usually great. I guess it depends where you get it from. I might start writing to Japan instead of US then :)
I live in Europe where there is no Pioneer products at all. They don’t sell in Europe even though they are sponsoring a European world tour team.
I have always been contacting the US support. Sometimes I get answers within a few hours and sometimes it takes days.
I have also bought all my Pioneer products from the US with no problems at all.
I live in Europe where there is no Pioneer products at all. They don’t sell in Europe even though they are sponsoring a European world tour team.
I have always been contacting the US support. Sometimes I get answers within a few hours and sometimes it takes days.
I have also bought all my Pioneer products from the US with no problems at all.
I purchased the Pioneer Power Meter Double-Side through a shop that was recently shut down and had to go to another shop for help. It has not worked since day one even with a Pioneer Head Unit. I called Pioneer to submit a warranty request and it took 3 separate calls, waiting on hold for more than 30 minutes each, to get anywhere with even sending in the unit. The last time I asked for a manager they sent me to a voicemail and I left a message saying it had been a week hearing nothing and they finally did something about a tracking number.
Now, because they had a bad production run of generation 2, they are making me pay $150 (saying it is a deal) on top of the already spent retail money on the unit to replace it. Since then I have not heard anything and they are now holding my power unit with my crank making my bike useless.
Go to Garmin, Stages or any other company before this one as even though you may be getting a deal, it is not worth the 2.5 month pain I have gone through just to have a functioning unit. Now I have no functioning bike.
FWIW, I ended up purchasing the Elemnt Bolt after careful consideration vs. CA600. 100% happy with my decision. Full Cycling Dynamics support with my Pioneer PM in pedal-monitoring mode. No integration with cyclo-sphere, but based on my impression of the website, I don’t think I’m missing out on much. I’m loving this set up a lot, and no regrets leaving my Edge 820 in the drawer.
I was considering buying Wahoo but went for CA600. Very nice unit. Easy to configure and lots of info on the screen. It is not bulky and the buttons are so easy to operate. But as you said, web site is a disaster.
It seems that they pay more attention to their mobile app then their web site but unfortunately it is not available world wide, only in certain countries.
As an overall, I am happy with the unit but not with the customer service from Pioneer. I bought both my PM and head unit from Clevertraining.com so I am covered :)
Would you mind sharing Wahoo pealing monitoring analyze pages’ screen shots?
Sure, here’s a photo I took on the trainer. Sorry for it being a little blurry!
The Pedal Monitoring page allows 5 data fields, the 5th “Pedaling Monitor Metrics” being fixed. The 4 fields at the top are customizable.
One down-side to Pedal Monitoring (Private Ant+) mode is that it is otherwise not compatible with the Wahoo ecosystem. You cannot control your Wahoo Smart Trainer with your Pioneer’s ANT+ power in this mode, and need to switch the PM mode back to “Dual ANT+” first if you want this feature.
I live in a country where the apps is not available. But I have used this guide and I now have both the control and analysis app on my phone and it works great: link to vintaytime.com
Hey Erdal, have you been outside with the CA600? If so, do you find it incredibly hard to see the screen? My Oakley Prizms helped a bit, but still not great. And I haven’t been able to get the TrainingPeaks integration to work, either. I contacted support about that and they just never bothered to respond to me.
I definitely am NOT happy with the unit, I’ve finally given up, I’m nearing the end of the CT return window, and I just have to use it. I wanted to like the CA600, but don’t.
No matter what app I use and transfer the route there is no cue sheets. Under cue sheets there is only start and goal. I have not tried riding yet so I dont know if they show up when you do a real ride outside.
Anyone that can help ?
Ps. Is there any user forums for the CA600 anywhere ?
Hi
I think it may not be the CA600 that is the problem. When I try to import the cue sheets are not included.
But I have found on way to get it to work. I use gpsies.com and export the route as tcx. When exporting I get chose to include cue sheets. When I do that the cue sheets work in CA600 :-)
I have also been looking all over for a CA600 forum/user group. I have not found anywhere there people talk about the CA600.
I have made a Facebook group and hope we can use that for help, tips and tricks. link to facebook.com
Ps. I am not a Facebook expert – so I dont really know what I doing. So maybe some can help out being admin and so on.
It would be good to see a full review of this. Retailers outside of US do not appear to have stock though. Perhaps DC can make queries about worldwide distribution with Pioneer as they are silent about it.
Are you keeping your back light on the entire time? I just bought one and it’s nice when the actual blacklight is on, but once it times out to normal I cant see anything.
Someone knows where to buy it???? I do not find any retailer that have it in stock. In europe it is nowhere to be found and in the rest of the world it is sold out.
I used an Elmnt Bolt but it loses Pioneer’s signal all the time. I know it is not the power meter cause it also loses the speed sensor’s signal and the HR monitor too which are Garmin branded. Looks like wahoo hardware only likes their own.
I had to return to my old SGX-CA500 but I hate to rely on pioneer software analysis on the cloud.
So anyone knows where to buy it??? Even if it is a bit older.
Thanks
Dont know if you know it. But Pioneer sold all there cyle business to Shimano. So the Pioneer products are no longer being sold. So I think the best change is 2nd hand.
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I just replaced a Pioneer PM with a Stages a few weeks ago. If I knew his was coming, I’d have stayed with Pioneer. I’ve had two of their power meters and they have been very reliable.
I’m glad to see they are staying current. The new head unit is impressive.
For the head unit, both Wahoo and Pioneer use Android as the base OS on their units. Guessing they are both using lots of the same open source frameworks which makes the units seem similar.
For their updated smartphone app. Any word on when they will support android? They promised android support last year when they announced the app but it never came.
Editing assistance “I didn’t get a chance to fully test out the app, but certainly
Wrap-Up:”
I think a few words might be missing in the first sentence. :)
Did you get any pictures of the non-drive pod? i heard a rumor that it might be a lower profile design…
Can’t tell for sure but looks the same:
link to pioneerelectronics.com
link to pioneerelectronics.com
92.5 × 34.7 × 8.7
But then they may still need to update the page as they seem too identical (no mention of BLE)
Other news sites have said they slimmed it down and pics look like it is slightly different to make it thinner (I have a pioneer)
Hi
2 questions:
1) Does the new headunit work with the old Pioneer Power Meters and still get the advanced cycling dynamics (12 points recording pr. rotation) ?
2) Any news of better supply in Europe ? I cant find anywhere in Europe that sells any Pioneer Power Meter products ?
Thanks
Need a deeper dive to determine whether the CA600 is worth replacing my Garmin 1030. Having to use Strava for live tracking is quite a bummer. Glad to see turn-by-turn but rerouting could be a significant gap. Still want a bezel-free, slimmer, full function bike computer. Pioneer pedaling dynamics are game changing for me to the point that I use a CA500 beside the 1030 on solo rides.
Anyone managed to use Turn-by-Turn, with strava routes ???
Secondly don’t think we are getting Strava live tracking……. :-(
Really like the unit now I have it all working.
While on the subject of power meters….
Anything stepping up or releasing soon for MTBs? The current pickings are mighty slim.
Any chance the new head unit displays Varia radar? I’m guessing not, but it appears to be one thing that keeps a lot of people staying with Garmin. Seems like a no brainer.
Will the ca600 headunit rebroadcast any ant+ device via Bluetooth smart or does it have to be pioneer specific?
I have a superseded left leg pioneer. It has one big issue. Massive lag broadcasting ant+ data – usually 5+ seconds. And this is with a magnet. Its even worse when you just use the internal accelerometers. The 4iiii before it never had such a problem. The issue does not exist with private ant transmissions. I wonder if that has been fixed?
Ray, regarding the above ANT+ lag issues, I’m not the only one reporting that problem, but I just deal with it.
If you test the new updated Powermeter. I’m guessing you’ll probably use the wahoo and a pioneer computer, but can you also incude single-leg ANT+ broadcasting to Garmin as one of the use cases?
Many thanks.
I never saw the 5-second delays (one can easily see in my charts of those reviews that there’s definitely not that when I compare it to other power meters on the market, it reacts the same). I virtually never used the private variants, all public ANT+.
I’ve always kinda wondered why a handful of people have reported it. Curious to see if I can find a way to repro it on this generation either way.
Hi Ray, I am glad to see others reporting this 5 sec issue. From zero-starting, like a signal start, My Pioneer PM is very slow to start reporting watt value. it looks about 5 sec, (or more) . Contacted to Pioneer support and they say it is expected but I didnt understand why nobody complained about it. If some people including you, is not seeing this 5 sec and there’s some conditions to improve it, that would be really great.
I have dual sided using their private ant to their head unit (the old one) which rebroadcasts as ant+. I see no lag. (No including when using the last x seconds avg field)
Ray, my suspicion (only) is that the pioneer system was designed way back for dual with private ant as its main requirement. Then stages came along and made left-leg only popular. Splitting pioneer into single left leg was a secondary requirement? and causes the delay as its designed to function primarily paired with a right leg? Maybe its designed to wait to hear from its right leg buddy before broadcasting the ANT+ signal?
Again, a guess only.
Thank you Pioneer! What took you so long? The CA600 gives me everything I need: Strava Live segments, BT-Smart, slightly larger screen and mapping. I will be upgrading my CA500 and 9100 dual-sided PM as soon the new pioneer solution is available.
Did you get it? I just took mine out for its first ride on Saturday. It’s REALLY hard to read. The backlight is not strong enough. I did notice that it has a terrible viewing angle when I was at home, but I think I was close enough to straight on. I tried standing when I was on the bike to look at it directly, still hard to see. It’s also hard to find the backlight option in the menu (it’s under the bike settings, as in the bike profile section) but once I did I cranked it. Helped a tiny bit.
I also got mine this weekend. Set up was not as easy as it should be, it just took a little patience. The Android app is kind of wonky and I had to go through the set up prices twice to get everything to save. Customization of screens is pretty easy but wow. There are a LOT of options. Like I feel like I’ve just scratched the surface of what this thing can record.
I have the ant+ only Pioneer meter and calibration of magnets and setup was a little confusing as you had to actually enter your power meter into the computer instead of it just finding it for the pedaling metrics. But once entered it worked flawlessly.
I felt the screen was a little dark as well but I upped my setting and it was much more readable in bright sunlight. However I was wearing polarized sunglasses and when I took them off it wasn’t as “clear.”
I rode for 3ish hours with all of the bells and whistles running and battery was at 81% after. Not bad.
Are you keeping your back light on the entire time? I just bought one and it’s nice when the actual blacklight is on, but once it times out to normal I cant see anything.
If a very long ride I am not because of battery life (6-12 hours). But my normal weekend rides it is on all the time.
While it is still relatively new in its announcement is there anyone with information on Giant Bikes new in house power meter that is coming standard on their higher end 2019 bikes? Or a potential upcoming review?
link to giant-bicycles.com
I am livid. Starting last year with the latest Dura-Ace models they were seeing variances in flex from the materials that Shimano was using for the R9100 generation units, with clear differences between the left and right sides (which could and would impact accuracy). In fact, Pioneer quietly introduced this change last year with those units on those R9100 cranksets. This explains why my power meter shows 80/20 now and one side reads much higher numbers. Pioneer kept this quiet ! Why ? I would expect them to advise all their customers of this and offer to fix it for free. I purchased mine 3.1.17 as one of the first to purchase the DA9100 dual sided. Ironically today I called them and they didn’t even mention this and all they said was for me to send the power meter to them to check it out. That means I will be about 15-20 days most likely without my crankset. I have stages, I have a quarq and I have never had issues with those power meters. They have been consistent and reliable. I am not going to comment on the Pioneer Head Unit I have, or the mobile app, or Cyclo-Sphere or their documentation quality but its really disappointing to read this today when I took a chance with Pioneer because I was told it was the best. I even called two bike shops for support today and all they said they can do is calibrations and everything else Pioneer wants you to send the cranks back. Thank you DC Rainmaker for this info since Pioneer didn’t disclose any of this. I am not the kind that posts negative or positive reviews but this got my blood pressure up.
Hi Christian-
I think there may be some misunderstanding here. Your unit already has this built-in. It’s a physical hardware change, not a software one. It’s physically a different strain gauge design that was implemented for those cranksets, including the R9100.
In the case of accuracy adjustments, the differences they were seeing were a few percent (like 2-4%), not 30-40%. The reason they didn’t want to disclose it was simple: Competitors had to figure it out themselves. Obviously, there’s no reason to disclose that to end users (no other power meter company discloses their exact stain gauge designs). It’s been obvious over the past year or so that other power meter companies have struggled with this, especially startups.
If you’re seeing 80/20 though, that’s nothing to do with this. That’s simply just something broke. That’s purely a support type item were something is horribly amiss on your unit and they need to sort it out the normal support way.
Cheers.
Ray:
To the question of the changes in materials change, could this be leading to the L/R balance being off? I am noticing on a new Stages LR that my balance is off by 2-3% to the left compared to my old P1 pedals.
Thanks,
RV
Exactly. I don’t know if Stages accounted for it, though, it trended well for me against both Vector 3 and Assioma. I think I even have some P1 sets in there.
It would be great if you could add alert tone change and alert volume control to your feature eval check list for computers. There are a lot of older riders who would benefit from these features. I have asked Garmin for alert tone/volume control and haven’t gotten any real answer from them. If experts like yourself started asking for these features it could help make it happen sooner. I would consider dumping my Edge 1030 for another brand computer that provides Varia RTL510 alerts that I can hear.
I have a left side Pioneer PM that has worked flawlessly for the last 2 years. So thumbs up for Pioneer.
Ray:
To the question of the changes in strain gauges due to the materials change, could this be leading to the L/R lance being off? I am noticing on a new Stages LR that my balance is off by 2-3% to the left compared to my old P1 pedals.
Thanks,
RV
Need to know that Trek compatibility though.
I am curious, what is it about trek compatibility?
Carbon frame Trek road bikes can have chainstay clearance issues with “chunky” crank-arm mounted power meters.
Yes, I see, if that is what Von Schlarb referred to. Yes, chainstay clearance is an issue with a number of frames. I did not know that Trek road bikes are affected too, but I looked at the newish Trek Checkpoint SL gravel bike and there is virtually no clearance ‘at all’, so even the tiny 4iiii pod (which I believe is lower profile than both stages and pioneer) will not fit.
dizpark, sorry am just seeing this but John said it better than I could. Trek is notorious for lack of clearance between the cranks and chainstays. The previous version has a Trek compatability chart on their site. I’d just love to see it updated with the newer year models so I could know from them for certain.
Anecdotally, I have an Emonda SLR with the ‘old’ R8000 Pioneer PM and it needs a 1 mm spacer between the crank arm and the BB bearing to clear the chainstay.
That said, I’ve been so happy with the reliability and performance of the Pioneer that I ordered this newest Bluetooth enabled model and am expecting it to fit with room to spare + no spacers.
Hi, Ray. This must be Christmas v3.0 (with Eurobike being Christmas V2.0 one Christmas being V1.0). I’m mega jealous of tech waters in which you swim and the backed goods The Girl provides you at home!
Well the CA-600 be a viable option for people using power meters other than Pioneers? You mentioned in the video that with CA-600 you can record data at faster sampling rates. Do other PMs, like my PowerTap G3 hub transmit data and at faster data rate than my Garmin records? While pedal dynamics hold no interest for me, a higher data rate and other power metrics not available with Wahoo or Garmin are interesting.
Maybe a comparo between the CA-600 and the new Stages head unit offerings might be in store. The two seem the replete with training metrics and maybe training plans?
Does this mean that the new power meters will be able to accept firmware upgrades via the app? Current gen Pioneer PM user here and that is one area I was curious about.
All of the other stuff is great as I am also a Wahoo Bolt user.
I haven’t heard of any inline app updates yet.
I just looked on the Pioneer site, and it now says under the new Ultegra dual leg power meter – link to pioneerelectronics.com
Cyclo-Sphere Simplicity
Installation and setup are a breeze with the Pioneer Cyclo-Sphere Control App. Manage everything – power meter functions, mode switching, magnet calibration, zero calibration, pedal copy and firmware updates simply with our intuitive iPhone or Android interface. It really doesn’t get any easier.
“Android” interface. Still no app. Pioneer has been talking about their Android app since before this computer was announced but there is still nothing. And that’s the only reason I haven’t pre ordered this computer. Hopefully by release they will have it? Maybe that’s why they have pushed the release back twice?
Does it concurrently broadcast private-ANT along with either ANT+ or Bluetooth Smart? It is the force direction/pedalling efficiency metrics which makes Pioneer attractive (at least for those of us trying to figure out injuries on one side) and we would want to be able to see that on a Pioneer or Wahoo computer while still connecting to Zwift etc. Can it do that? In your review, it sounded like private-Ant is an either/or option to concurrent ANT+/Bluetooth Smart.
Thanks.
My understanding from discussions with them is that it’ll broadcast one ANT variant along with Bluetooth Smart, but it won’t dual-broadcast both ANT variants.
Seems like the app will only support Bluetooth connections. So will be useless for those of us with older pioneer power meters. So even if your phone has Ant hardware built in, no power meter connection is possible
Does the pioneer on the map page display the speed of the cadence and heart? I can not wait for this option in Garmin. The map page has only a map view. There is no define additional data for display.
Every Garmin I’ve ever used (Edge 705, 800, 1000) allowed up to 2 data fields on the map page. That’s what I have on my 1000 currently. You’re waiting for something that already exists.
but two are not enough, four are the best :)
I’ve been wanting to leave the Garmin 1030 due to some major issues they just don’t care to fix (remote disconnects, the dreaded delamination of the screen, etc). However the one thing that keeps me with Garmin is:
1. Custom maps. I don’t want to create a ‘route’ or huge single gpx file to represent a large mountain bike trail network every time I travel somewhere. This is better done with a custom map, which the Garmin allows me to do with 3rd party software after gathering all the GPX files of my local trail networks. Is there any way of loading up a large network of trails to overlay on top of Openstreetmaps, as it’s not always up to date?
2. No plans to show street names? (likely a deal breaker for me, same as Wahoo).
3. Any word if this will do custom apps, like Xert?
4. Will these fancy power metrics work with Stages cranks?
5. This will connect to ANT+ ? If I understand this preview it will, but not while BLE is connected for any other device?
6. Any tests done with full finger gloves, or water?
Looking forward to a full review!
really hard (impossible) to find a shop to buy or a place to send the crank to install the unit. here in europe(italy).
I have the same problem here in Denmark. Cant find anywhere that sells Pioneer Power Meters. I will be buying my new Pioneer headunit and Power Meter in the US.
I had a Pioneer kit installed on an SG 9100 crank last July. It had a very substantial power imbalance – like 55/45 left-right. I wound up shipping it back and they claimed they recalibrated it, which seems to have fixed the problem. Could they have installed newer designed strain gauges back then?
Interesting. I’ve got the new SBT-PM9100 installed on a brand new dura ace 9100 crank and I am having power balance issues. If I pedal with my left leg only it’ll display 100/0 left/right balance as expected, but if I pedal with my right leg only it fluctuates between 10/90 to 3/97 left/right balance. I have zero calibrated it several times and cannot get it corrected.
So they have the app for the iphone:
to connect to the power meter:
link to itunes.apple.com
to view your history:
link to itunes.apple.com
But absolutely nothing for android. No information on if they can connect to older Pioneer power meters that are only Ant. (Many android phones have ant chipsets built in and very easy to get an OTG cable to plug a ant stick into an android phone)
They love talking about their athletes on their facebook page but anything technical or updates on their actual products? Nope. Plus if you look at how they promote their athletes they only seem to use their power meter as a basic left right power meter and ignore all the extra data pioneer can give. You would think they would want to promote that, but no….
BTW they promised this whole training assist in the past with training plans but that seems to have only been released for ios users:
link to bikerumor.com
(Seemed to be indications they would use their advanced functionality for pedal stroke training)
As a basic true left/right power meter, they seem great, not so sure they care much about the advanced functionality.
Hi Ray, does the new CA-600 head unit require you to set up each bike individually, or does it use a pooled sensor approach, similar to newer Garmin units?
Individual bike, same as the 500 unit – easy.
Has anyone managed to get the auto bike swap to work on the CA600? I enable it, but it won’t automatically switch even though the only 2 sensors it can see are on an alternative bike to the one currently set!
Hi
I have a ANT+ Pioneer since last year. I am so happy with it but I think their app for IOS is not in world wide store. I can not find it at least. I have been asking them via email, via social media if they have any plans to make this app downloadable world wide but unfortunately, I don’t get any answer.
Do you have any updates regarding application availability world wide?
Hi
The Pioneer apps are not in the Danish store either. But there is a workaround until the release them worldwide:
link to imore.com
You can then install the apps. But you will have to change app store each time the apps are updated to get the updates.
Also – I was told the all the first batch of SGX-CA600 is already sold out and next stock will be in february.
Looking forward to your review of the CA600. Got mine out the other day and…unintuitive UX, which I can live with. Back light WAY too dim, which I really can’t. To read any data on it, I had to really look hard, which isn’t exactly safe when you’re out on the road. I need to be able to get the info I’m looking for at a quick glance. It’s possible mine’s defective, and I’ve contacted Pioneer support to see if they can fix it through a firmware update, else I’m going to have to make another Clever Training return. Poor guys, I’ve had a defective power meter, and now this, have to go back to them.
It wasn’t a bright sunny day, either – it was overcast and rainy. I was trying to figure out if it’s a transflective display, as this was a problem the Vivoactive HR had. The back light was strong enough if the light level was low, and in bright light, was fine because it was front-lit in that scenario and looked great (Garmin’s wearable displays, I think, actually look their absolute best in direct sunlight). But in mid-level light you had to strain to see it. There wasn’t enough light in the front to create enough contrast, but there was too much light for the weak back light to overcome.
Note, I did (eventually) pull off and find the back light control and adjust it. Dang setting is in the bike profile section. Who thought that was where it should go? But even at its highest setting it was a no-go. Wondering if you’re having the same problem, Ray.
I have mine too, UI is similar to the 500, bit off a pain to get is setup how you like, but once its setup plain sailing and a nice unit. Had the same issue with regards to contrast, but turning up the brightness helps a lot.
I see in a lot of the press releases it has Strava Beacon, but could not find it – hoping for some exciting firmware updates to come.
Does anyone else have issues with speed when data is uploaded to Strava – mine fluctuates up and down a lot. Speed is smooth in TP and Cycle-sphere, and other devices never had a problem with strava so it seems to be an issue between CS and Strava. Bit annoying – hope they fix it!!
Have you seen similar Ray?
Example attached….
I don’t have one yet unfortunately. Sorry!
Ah! Hopefully you’ll be getting one for a full review Ray? Not at bad unit overall with some nice features… Only issues so far for me:
Screen contrast could be better (I’ve got used to wahoo)
Doesn’t seem to auto select bike
Speed data glitches in strava
Can’t have celcius and miles at the same time!
Can’t have 20min and 60min max power data fields…
Colin.
Really hope you will make a full review.
Pioneer have come a long way.
Any idea when the device will be available in Europe? So far, I couldn’t find a trace of it.
I don’t think they currently import them into Europe. I ordered one from clever training and it arrived in 5 days though :)
I got mine from the US as well.
Hi
Anyone know what the firmware update for the powermeter does?
Mine updated from 1008 to 1009.
Can’t find any info anywhere.
Hi, I’m a Pioneer SGY-PM90 owner, currently using a Garmin Edge 820. I’m extremely dissatisfied with my Edge, mostly due to poor battery performance, and I’m looking to replace it with something. I’m desperate to find reviews on the new SGX-CA600 but it seems nobody has one yet.
The one “killer feature” that keeps me on Garmin is the ability to create my own workouts, for free, without paying for third-party services like Today’s Plan or TrainingPeaks. Pioneer’s website is vague, but it states, “The Pioneer Cycle Computer provides three options for building and completing your interval trainings: Pioneer Training Assist®, Training Peaks and manual setup, which allow you to conduct customized intervals and FTP tests.”
Can anyone comment on this? Can I actually create my own workouts? Is it easy to do? Can I schedule my own training plan? Can I adjust the % based on FTP? Help!
Create a free user on cyclo-sphere.com and use the mobile website. Then you can see what you can create. Pioneers training is not great but I think it is ok – and free.
You can pretty much create what you want. And if you have the CA600 I think it is much easier because you have the cyclo-sphere control app which works great.
I get my CA600 tomorrow ?
I like the unit, not as smooth and sweet as the BOLT yet, but I’m sure the updates will improve the unit as time goes by [Infact the first update came out last night for me]
In regards to training, its kinda a stand alone unit. You can upload from trainingpeaks, or cyclosphere training assist. Or you can program on the unit which is pretty easy for basic intervals. Scheduling only via. TP if I’m correct – or just select your favorite interval set on the unit.
If the CA600 is like the CA500 it will have many firmware updates. The CA500 had so many features coming with new firmware updates.
hello Scott. Im about to pull the trigger for this unit… but im not 100% sure, because there are no reviews at all… Now that you have tried it, would you still choose this instead of the bolt? Thanx for the help
I’d like to know anyone’s experience on this vs Garmin Edge 1030.
I assume this unit does *not* do custom maps?
Also, does this unit do anything good with Stages Power Meters? (I’ve already invested them into all my bikes).
Or does it only make sense to get this unit if you have Pioneer power meters?
What are customs maps?
I have used the CA600 for the first time today and can only say – I love it. I had the CA500 and have to say this is a huge upgrade.
If anyone have questions just write and I will try to answer.
What I mean is that I can download topography maps from gpsfiledepot.com or create my own maps for Mountain bike networks, and load them to the device. I’m not referring to loading a single GPX of a previous ride. I can do this with my Garmin, but I can’t stand how buggy all my Garmin devices are.
Have you used the Pioneer computer with any non-Pioneer power meters? I assume it still works fine but just gives basic power and L/R efficiency if I use stages?
I dont think you can use other maps than the standard.
I have not used any other power meter than Pioneer. But it should not be any problem. You can read here what info you get with ant+ power meter:
link to pioneerelectronics.com
Look under spec and Ant+ power meter.
Benja, Ice been reading and looks like the contrast or brightness of the screen is terrible.
Any comments? Is it true?
It comes with contrast/brightness at only 1 and that is a little low.
I have set it to 6 when riding indoor.
I have tried it outdoor in very bright sunshine so I don’t know if it needs to go all the up to 10 outdoor.
I can see all screens perfectly- even the one with 15 datafields.
Also just found out that it can pick up speed from my Wahoo Kickr so now I can have distance when riding indoor. The CA500 could not do that. ?
Forgot a “not”:
I have not tried it outdoor in very………
I have decided to go with Wahoo Element Bolt which is providing the functionalities which I am looking for, Pedaling efficiency and force vector.
It is really embarrassing that such a fantastic Power meter has a bad customer service. I have been understand the availability of hardware and software in Europe but responses are simply disaster (We are working on it, soon, etc).
I think Pioneer should stop targeting only States market. They also to realize that there are people who are using their equipment in the other parts of this world.
I am having a test unit today and will test it. If everything goes smooth, it is Pioneer PM with Wahoo Bolt.
“I think Pioneer should stop targeting only States market”
My impression is that the primary market for Pioneer cycling products is Japan. After taking a quick look at cyclo-sphere, everything there is clearly google-translated from Japanese. The overwhelming amount of information I’ve found regarding the CA600 is from Japanese blogs and youtube videos.
I’ve ordered replacement parts for my power meter from pioneer.com and they are always back-ordered for weeks or months, despite no indication of this when ordering. The links in my order confirmation email don’t even work.
IMHO the only fair assessment of their “targeting the United States” is that there are bike shops in USA which sell Pioneer products. More accurately, there are some bike shops in USA which have access to Pioneer products through a distributor, because I’ve never seen any Pioneer products in stock in any bike shop I’ve ever been to.
Customer service for Japanese products is usually great. I guess it depends where you get it from. I might start writing to Japan instead of US then :)
I live in Europe where there is no Pioneer products at all. They don’t sell in Europe even though they are sponsoring a European world tour team.
I have always been contacting the US support. Sometimes I get answers within a few hours and sometimes it takes days.
I have also bought all my Pioneer products from the US with no problems at all.
I live in Europe where there is no Pioneer products at all. They don’t sell in Europe even though they are sponsoring a European world tour team.
I have always been contacting the US support. Sometimes I get answers within a few hours and sometimes it takes days.
I have also bought all my Pioneer products from the US with no problems at all.
Can this upload rides to RideWIthGPS after a ride is completed or only to Strava?
I dont think it can upload automatic. But you can always import manually RideWIthGPS.
But it can get rides from RideWIthGPS automatic.
Don’t Buy this product.
Awful product, terrible customer support, incredibly irresponsible company.
I purchased the Pioneer Power Meter Double-Side through a shop that was recently shut down and had to go to another shop for help. It has not worked since day one even with a Pioneer Head Unit. I called Pioneer to submit a warranty request and it took 3 separate calls, waiting on hold for more than 30 minutes each, to get anywhere with even sending in the unit. The last time I asked for a manager they sent me to a voicemail and I left a message saying it had been a week hearing nothing and they finally did something about a tracking number.
Now, because they had a bad production run of generation 2, they are making me pay $150 (saying it is a deal) on top of the already spent retail money on the unit to replace it. Since then I have not heard anything and they are now holding my power unit with my crank making my bike useless.
Go to Garmin, Stages or any other company before this one as even though you may be getting a deal, it is not worth the 2.5 month pain I have gone through just to have a functioning unit. Now I have no functioning bike.
Thanks a lot Pioneer.
FWIW, I ended up purchasing the Elemnt Bolt after careful consideration vs. CA600. 100% happy with my decision. Full Cycling Dynamics support with my Pioneer PM in pedal-monitoring mode. No integration with cyclo-sphere, but based on my impression of the website, I don’t think I’m missing out on much. I’m loving this set up a lot, and no regrets leaving my Edge 820 in the drawer.
I was considering buying Wahoo but went for CA600. Very nice unit. Easy to configure and lots of info on the screen. It is not bulky and the buttons are so easy to operate. But as you said, web site is a disaster.
It seems that they pay more attention to their mobile app then their web site but unfortunately it is not available world wide, only in certain countries.
As an overall, I am happy with the unit but not with the customer service from Pioneer. I bought both my PM and head unit from Clevertraining.com so I am covered :)
Would you mind sharing Wahoo pealing monitoring analyze pages’ screen shots?
Thanks
Hi Erdal,
Sure, here’s a photo I took on the trainer. Sorry for it being a little blurry!
The Pedal Monitoring page allows 5 data fields, the 5th “Pedaling Monitor Metrics” being fixed. The 4 fields at the top are customizable.
One down-side to Pedal Monitoring (Private Ant+) mode is that it is otherwise not compatible with the Wahoo ecosystem. You cannot control your Wahoo Smart Trainer with your Pioneer’s ANT+ power in this mode, and need to switch the PM mode back to “Dual ANT+” first if you want this feature.
I live in a country where the apps is not available. But I have used this guide and I now have both the control and analysis app on my phone and it works great:
link to vintaytime.com
Thank you.
Hey Erdal, have you been outside with the CA600? If so, do you find it incredibly hard to see the screen? My Oakley Prizms helped a bit, but still not great. And I haven’t been able to get the TrainingPeaks integration to work, either. I contacted support about that and they just never bothered to respond to me.
I definitely am NOT happy with the unit, I’ve finally given up, I’m nearing the end of the CT return window, and I just have to use it. I wanted to like the CA600, but don’t.
Hi there,
Yes I have been riding outside in the middle of desert and zero issues with the screen. I also have my integration to TP and Strava works flawlessly.
The only problem I had was not able to mount it to my Madone Trek but I had adapter printed in 3D printer and that’s all resolved.
As of now, I am so happy with my unit.
Hi
I cant the the cue sheets to work.
No matter what app I use and transfer the route there is no cue sheets. Under cue sheets there is only start and goal. I have not tried riding yet so I dont know if they show up when you do a real ride outside.
Anyone that can help ?
Ps. Is there any user forums for the CA600 anywhere ?
I had the same issue, with Strava, have not tried RWGPS, it might give the 600 the info it needs for navigation.
Wahoo guys have a google forum for community support, could do the same thing …
Hi
I think it may not be the CA600 that is the problem. When I try to import the cue sheets are not included.
But I have found on way to get it to work. I use gpsies.com and export the route as tcx. When exporting I get chose to include cue sheets. When I do that the cue sheets work in CA600 :-)
I have also been looking all over for a CA600 forum/user group. I have not found anywhere there people talk about the CA600.
I have made a Facebook group and hope we can use that for help, tips and tricks.
link to facebook.com
Ps. I am not a Facebook expert – so I dont really know what I doing. So maybe some can help out being admin and so on.
It would be good to see a full review of this. Retailers outside of US do not appear to have stock though. Perhaps DC can make queries about worldwide distribution with Pioneer as they are silent about it.
Are you keeping your back light on the entire time? I just bought one and it’s nice when the actual blacklight is on, but once it times out to normal I cant see anything.
Someone knows where to buy it???? I do not find any retailer that have it in stock. In europe it is nowhere to be found and in the rest of the world it is sold out.
I used an Elmnt Bolt but it loses Pioneer’s signal all the time. I know it is not the power meter cause it also loses the speed sensor’s signal and the HR monitor too which are Garmin branded. Looks like wahoo hardware only likes their own.
I had to return to my old SGX-CA500 but I hate to rely on pioneer software analysis on the cloud.
So anyone knows where to buy it??? Even if it is a bit older.
Thanks
Dont know if you know it. But Pioneer sold all there cyle business to Shimano. So the Pioneer products are no longer being sold. So I think the best change is 2nd hand.
Here’s that old post, just as an FYI: link to dcrainmaker.com