(Note: Please, please, please read the entire post before ‘investing’. Especially my concerns in the last two full sections…not paragraphs, sections.)
As each year passes, we continue to see drops in power meter prices. One only needs to look at my recent post on power meter pricing to see these plainly obvious pricing trends (in picture-graph format no less!). Which doesn’t mean power meters are getting more inaccurate, nor does it mean there’s a race to the bottom. In fact, power meters have never been more accurate (on the whole) than now. The technology of power meters a decade ago can’t do much of what today’s power meters do – for example, accurate temperature compensation, or high-speed data analytics. Neither of which are reserved for only the most expensive units either.
Still, there continues to be progress made on lowering the barrier to entry in the power meter world. And in the case of today, that’s coming from a Dutch company called IQ2, and their power meter that just launched on Kickstarter.
Of course – if you’re a regular around here you know I have a (perhaps unhealthy) fascination with digging into crowdfunded power meter projects. But my basis is simple: Show me the goods.
Specifically, I generally take the approach with power meters that unless I can touch and feel it in my hands, it’s not real. Same goes for data too – if I can’t see actual data with my own eyes…it’s probably not baked yet.
So where does IQ2 fit in that paradigm? Well, I went for a 50KM bike ride to find out.
But first, if text isn’t your thing – then this video explains it all nice and quickly (even including the full installation):
Ok, on with the text.
The Technology:
In many ways, the IQ2 power meter is a blend of power meter concepts we’ve seen before. It’s part Limits and part Vector/WatTeam. By that, I mean that it uses a small pedal spacer akin to Limits, while shifting the communications/battery portion to an attached ‘pod’ that aligns next to your crank arm (like WatTeam or Vector 1/2). Of course, other companies have used pods previously – including Polar and Look. IQ2’s pod is powered by a standard CR2032 coin cell battery used by countless others. Battery life’s minimum floor is 200 hours, but they’re hoping for 250-300hrs.
IQ2 notes that by shifting to a wholly enclosed pod design they significantly minimize the number of variables to deal with, in comparison to a glued on crank arm design (à la Stages/4iiii/Avio/etc…). And they’re right. Any of those companies will tell you that one of the biggest challenges is dealing with variances in crank arm manufacturing, especially for carbon designs. Whereas with a totally encapsulated pod design like IQ2 has, they completely remove any crank arm uniqueness aspects from the equation. Mostly.
The portion they’ll still have to deal with is crank arm thickness and depth variances. This was an area that Garmin ultimately had to have two separate SKU’s for their original Vector system to accommodate for. I don’t believe IQ2 will end up with that situation, but they will likely end up with having to include additional spacers (as Garmin does for Vector 3), to accommodate thinner crank arms. This would have the negative impact of further increasing q-factor (which we’ll get to in a moment).
The IQ2 power meter can be purchased either in a single-leg or dual leg configuration, like most dual systems on the market today. When purchasing single-leg you can even select whether that’s left or right you want. As with others, it simply doubles your single leg power to get total power. If you purchase the dual-leg system then it comes with two sets of sensors, one for each side.
Installation of the system is pretty simple. You’ll start by inserting into your crank arm an interior pedal adapter of sorts. This takes about 8-10 seconds using the small tool provided. This effectively decreases the width of the pedal attachment point in the crank arm. You can see below (right) that it doesn’t quite look like a normal pedal from the backside.
Next, you’ll attach your pedal to the IQ2 pod using a pedal wrench (before attaching anything to the bike). The pod is inclusive of the spacer. This takes about 10-12 seconds because of the pedal wrench bit:
And finally, you’ll attach your pod/pedal combo dish to the crank arm and insert a bolt through the back using a hex wrench:
Entire installation time – 60 seconds including brief breaks to rest. This is quite a bit cleaner than the Limits installation was, though it does draw on some of the same overall concepts.
At this point you’ll notice the obvious: The entire setup has bumped out your pedals away from the crank arm. It’s done that 16mm on each side. In most cycling circles, that’d be considered ‘a crapton’.
This increase in distance is part of what’s known as your q-factor. Or essentially the distance between the pedal attachment points on both sides of the bike. Note above how the silver pod in between the pedal and the crank arm extends your stance outwards .
Since Limits came aboard, there’s been plenty of debates about q-factor (since that increased it as well). Most of these debates overlook the most basic thing: If you have multiple types of bikes, your q-factor already varies significantly. For example, a road bike has a q-factor generally of ~150mm, while a mountain bike has a q-factor of 170mm. Jump on that WattBike? It’s got a q-factor of 173 but the Atom is 160. But wait, your gym spin bike has a different q-factor, and that’ll vary by brands and models too. Schwinn’s AC Performance is 170mm, while Keiser’s M3 is 197mm. Thus, if you switch bikes – then things are already changing.
Though, IQ2 does seem to have an answer for this. They’re looking to simply produce/OEM pedal spindles for a few of the major brands, with a shorter length – thus putting you back to the original q-factor. They don’t have this ready for their Kickstarter campaign, but they did have some prototypes of it available when I visited them. Obviously, there could be downsides with this approach, but that’s probably a different discussion for a different day.
Next, when it comes to the tech side of things, the unit will broadcast dual ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart, like virtually every other power meter on the market today. It does this using the same chipsets that most others do, a Nordic nRF51 communications stack. It’ll broadcast power and cadence like most power meters. Though other extended metrics aren’t quite yet announced.
The system is designed to be portable and easily moveable between bikes. Though, every non-crank based power meter has stated that in their marketing campaigns for years, and very rarely has it actually been true. Sure, they’ve been portable, but not as easily swappable as something you’d do every day (a somewhat often request I hear). Looking at the structure of this design, I wouldn’t have any concerns swapping it every few weeks between bikes, but like most threaded gizmos, I wouldn’t want to do it every week between bikes.
There’s simply too much possibility of getting sand or grit into the threads and then deforming the threads. Especially since there are three sets of threads to consider here (versus one on a single pedal). This recommendation is no different than when I look at pedal based power meters like Garmin Vector or PowerTap P1. There’s eventually going to be a day when you’re in a rush and don’t catch those few grains of sand because the light was bad that day and everything goes to crap.
On the bright side, with the planned pricing of IQ2 – you can probably afford to outfit multiple bikes more easily than Vector 3 (which costs 4 times the price).
Finally – what about stated accuracy? Well, that’s kinda a funny one. Nowhere on their Kickstarter page is it mentioned, so I asked and didn’t exactly get an answer initially. Instead, I got a question back: “What do you want it to be?”.
Founder Keesjan Klant went on to explain that based on the specific strain gauges they’re using that they had an accuracy tolerance well under +/-0.1%. And that’s true if you were looking at purely the strain gauge itself (inclusive of temperature shifts). Unfortunately, it’s not as easy as that. One also has to account for aspects like accelerometers and their associated algorithms too. Ultimately, Keesjan stated that their goal was a system which was ‘under +/-1.0%’, but that it would depend on getting production units tested.
A Test Ride:
Now remember when I said I went for a 50KM bike ride? That’s true. That was the distance between Amsterdam and Wassenaar, where I rode to meet with the founder of IQ2. It was unfortunately not however the distance I rode with an IQ2 unit.
See – at this stage, no production-sized IQ2 units have been outside for a ride yet and transmitted power data to a computer. Thus, neither I nor they have any data from that. They have put together some larger prototype units as shown in their Kickstarter campaign (and a screenshot of which is below), but I wasn’t able to ride that either.
Compounding things – the company isn’t releasing any data at this point. You heard that correct, no power data at all. Instead, they prefer to do that with production models down the road.
Now, some have criticized me for ‘requiring’ companies show goods and prototypes at an early stage. And that’s true. But there’s also a simple reality to that requirement. In exchange for the visibility a company gets here, I need to validate it’s not vaporware. After all, the reason people come here is to get my opinion on whether a product is viable or worth your cash. And there’s simply no way I can do that unless I’ve seen the product first-hand. Photos won’t do it justice, nor a phone call.
So, there was no ride with the IQ2. But I did ride home. Or most of the way home anyway until I ran out of light and ended up using the excellent Dutch railway system for the remainder.
Going Forward:
Meeting with the founder Keesjan Klant was without question interesting. He’s part Elon Musk and part Dr. Emmett Brown from Back To the Future. I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off. He and his team are certainly smart enough – and he’s got a long resume of far greater and more complex engineering projects to work from.
But, like Elon Musk, I suspect he’s underestimating the difficulties in this product and the timelines involved. There’s a long trail of companies that have tried and failed to develop power meters. And many that have succeeded. And every…single…one of them has had delays and complexities along the way (yes, even SRM). No matter the money invested (Garmin), or the time in the industry (PowerTap or Quarq). Making power meters is far more difficult than people realize.
Like Elon – he’ll get there, and the product will likely be great in the end. But, it probably just won’t happen when you think it will. On the bright side, a power meter is generally considered easier than re-landing rockets on a floating platform in the ocean.
So the real question is whether or not you put out the money now for a unit. For that, I turn to my general rule on crowd funded campaigns: Expect to lose your money and get nothing. Thus, your expectations are such that anything above and beyond that is a success. Kinda like investing in crypto currencies such as Bitcoin – treat it all like money in Vegas.
My money would say that IQ2 will succeed in a power meter, that they’ll probably deliver next spring (2019). If/when they do that with an accurate unit, they’ll notably shift the market pricing at the same time. Competitive pressure doesn’t occur in this market until a new entrant actually ships an accurate product.
When it comes to the underlying technology in their unit – it all sounds great from a hardware standpoint, but none of it will matter without corresponding software to account for all of the environmental and human variables that have caused so many others to stumble.
So yes – if you’ve got 149€ to spare (or 199€ for the dual-leg) and don’t need a power meter this year – then give the wheel of Kickstarter fortune a spin. It might just pay off. But, if you’re looking for something to train and race in 2018, then consider a product already on the market today.
With that – thanks for reading!
FOUND THIS POST USEFUL? SUPPORT THE SITE!
Hopefully, you found this post useful. The website is really a labor of love, so please consider becoming a DC RAINMAKER Supporter. This gets you an ad-free experience, and access to our (mostly) bi-monthly behind-the-scenes video series of “Shed Talkin’”.
Otherwise, perhaps consider using the below link if shopping on Amazon. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. It doesn’t cost you anything extra, but your purchases help support this website a lot. It could simply be buying toilet paper, or this pizza oven we use and love.
Like with that other one that went in between the pedal…. Not sure how it’ll compensate for the pedal offset. All the spindle based sensor units (vector and Look and assioma) use two strain gages offset a distance between them to create a differential bending beam, and then have multiple around for sensitivity / angle compensation. So minimum of 4 needed, 8 for angle, and 16 for sensitivity and angle as 4 sensors. It’s hard to believe this would have that necessary offset for two gages in that space, thus it’ll end up having the same issues as that other one I suspect – Limits or whatever. I do find it interesting they are using the same ADC (ADS1247) I used in my original Accuity design 5+ years ago.
Your are completely right ! It is impossible to measure a force with only one measuring point in the axis direction; they are just measuring a torque between pedal and crank arm, so the force, and than the power precision should not be better than 20% ? and depending on the pedal offset and the way of pedalling : sitting, standing …
Regarding what we really see working, to me it seems they have a fairly nice mechanical prototype, but the rest … proto of a data logger on a strain gage Wheatstone bridge, a configuring phone application I am not even sure is connected to anything ? Even the cadence early prototype seems to use a magnet (the product is not supposed tu have one on the frame, is supposed to use accelerometers)!
If they had a usable proto, they would have showed it ! I am nearly sure they do not have any …
How do you know they are using à ADS1247 ? You have seem it on photos ?
What we have learned from previous power meter projects is that the hardest part is not to make a working prototype, but to mass-produce power meters. We analyzed why it is so difficult to mass-produce a power meter, and our conclusion is the inconsistency of the current glued strain gauges.
Every power meter with a glued strain gauge has different characteristics that needs extensive calibration and complex software.
With this knowledge, we did things different, we started our design from the end to the start and found a way to make every power meter exactly the same in mass production. The solutions is a laser trimmed thin film deposited strain gauge that is molecular bonded to our titanium adapter. This thin film strain gauge is, compared to normal strain gauges, immune to temperature changes and has exactly the same linearity, every power meter again.
We think it is not fair to give data of our prototype and show the world we can build a prototype that works, instead of showing the world we can mass-produce a power meter that is accurate in every condition and affordable for every cyclist.
When the first mass production power meters are produced, we certainly give accuracy data to our backers. We hope you have just as much trust in our new approach as we have!
In addition, we cannot thank you enough for your support, without your support we were not able to give every cyclist the opportunity to ride with a power meter.
“””””””””””
From what I understand they’re not measuring strain on the spindle outside of the crank but on the insert/adapter which is located in fixed position inside the crank arm pedal thread (basically at the end of the spindle, inside the crank arm). Hence compensating for pedal offset is not necessary.
I am not sure I understand all you said ?
For power, we need torque in the centre of rotation (bottom bracket), it is why it is possible directly measure torque on crank arm … (if your are not where is applied the force to the crank arm : the pedal thread/spindle).
It is why on the pedal spindle it is needed to measure the perpendicular force, and calculate the torque with the length of the crank. But what I understand is they only measure torque on spindle (witch is depending were and how is applied force), and thus need to estimate perpendicular force…
From what I have seen, all precise pedals are measuring 2 torques to have force.
The thing is they don’t really measure it on the spindle. Technically measuring point is in the crank arm (adapter/insert with strain gauges is inside the crank arm pedal thread which is inside the crank arm, not outside of it like the rest of the spindle).
On drawings/plans/photos I see they are on a free ring between : the thread for the pedal, and the part in the the crank arm. It seems logical, as bending would be dependent of other pats in front of the threads.
Were did you see it was inside ?
I’ve seen they mentioned it on their kickstarter page in a discussion with backers. Now I’ve seen photos where in fact strain gauge is outside of the crank but exactly on the point where screwed in pedal thread ends.
So tempted, but given the Limits fiasco (last ‘communication’ was Nov 2017) I am worried this will go the same way.
At least, unlike the Limits Indiegogo campaign, you can cancel your pledge before the campaign ends, if they have no numbers to show by then.
I am also unsure whether these pods are compatible with pedals that only use a hex wrench, for example my current Look Keo Max pedals – is there a hole through the adapter to attach the pod and pedal?
I know, and I plan on doing just that if I have too many doubts in the last few hours of the campaign.
200 Euros for dual-sided is way cheaper than anything else I can get here (less than half the cost of Powertap P1S pedals, for example), BUT… I can get them and they have been proven to work.
29 days to come up with believable data. No pressure ;)
It looks like a refined Limits powermeter.
Pros: 199€ for the dual-leg it’s a real deal! It’s compatible with any road/mtb pedal and it’s easily moveable.
Cons: 16mm q-factor increase, no power data at this moment, have to wait 1 year.
I think I’m going to wait until they show accurate power data.
But the 16 mm or 1,6 cm attachment distance/thickness to the side can cause significant leg positioning issues… And I can imagine, that in some cases the cleat adjustment won’t solve this issue.
On the other hand, the benefit can be on triathlon races in T1, in a combination of flat pedal with cage and running shoes. Because running shoes are wider then road shoes…
I think when it comes to Q-factor, users fit in to one of four groups:
Never heard of it
Know what it is but not bothered about it
Know what it is and like to think it’s a significant factor in their cycling
Know what it is and it actually is a significant factor in their cycling
I’d suggest that the last group is pretty small and doesn’t have to worry about choosing and buying PMs, especially low-cost ones.
True, and interesting that my schooling on Q factor comes from DCR University.
Specific leg/knee/ankle/hip injuries can be a significant bike fitting Q factor, and of course it is a smaller segment of the population. There too there are other power meters that has zero Q impact.
Still, glad to see the first two groups helping to pull down power meter prices.
“When purchasing single-leg you can even select whether that’s left or right you want.”
does that mean that the dual-leg could be split to one left and one right single leg?
I also have this question. It might be interesting. You’re essentially buying a two-pack of single leg meters for a little more than the cost of one. Also wondering if they could be mixed. I have a Stages left crank already. Could I put the right side one on that bike and get a dual-leg system and then put the left one on another bike?
I’ve pledged for the L&R package and asked this very question – I don’t think it will be possible out of the box though. Looking at the bundles you can choose an L or an R not just a generic single sided option which suggests that they’re different somehow. They could be daisy chained together from a broadcasting point of view I suppose but could it be more likely to do with thread direction on the adaptors?
Just realised we were talking at cross purposes – I was referring to using the right pod from the dual bundle on the left pedal of a second bike not using the left on one and the right on the second. I’m not sure how good an idea this would be though, would it not introduce further inaccuracies when comparing, say, your race and training bikes? If you’ve a 52/48 L/R split then that’ll be quite a significant difference – 2×52% v 2×48% of your total?
They talk about a set of a left and a right unit as if they are separable, technically does not seem to be any reason they couldn’t be used on 2 bikes. Given the ease with which they can be moved, it would be easy enough to use on one bike to check your left right balance, then use them on two different bikes. Hopefully we will get a difinitive answer.
Yup. After the LIMITS debacle I will say that they are apparently being far more honest about where they are. Having said that, I’ll quite happily crowdfund a campaign to take a product from prototype to production, I’m no longer interested in crowdfunding things from idea to working prototype. Right now it looks like they have a non-working mockup if its never actually left the lab, and that’s just not enough.
The left or right only are not an early bird special (no limit). The combo of L & R is only about $60 more, if early bird. Although it’s moving pretty quickly. You can still withdraw your pledge ;)
Looks like this could be an option for MTBing, provided as HdB earlier questioned, they work with hex wrenched pedals. If I had the $250ish to spare, I would be on this. Especially with the ability to give 30 days to show data and hear Ray’s thoughts.
Well, I was far more hopeful than this. Supposedly they were releasing a GCN youtube release special. Don’t see it. Strange these guys knew the rules, “get Ray on board”. And yet, no power data whatsoever. So, it appears GCN won’t run their spectacular release video and Ray is not on board. Pretty much sums it up for me.
That said, I was already very skeptical. I understand the purpose of kickstarter for new ideas from small unfunded folks. But here, these guys have significant means at their disposal. Why a kickstarter then? Why not just bring it to market? Now we learn they built a dummy shell but don’t have the tech to put the works inside it. That’s false advertising folks. That would be fraudulent and a crime in any other market. I’ll sell you sum beach front property here in Oklahoma, it looks just like Hawaii. I’ll send you pictures, I promise.
Love you Ray, but I am a little surprised you would give another ultra low cost powermeter the “First Look” treatment without any numbers whatsoever. Undoubtedly many folks will (mistakenly) view this video as a pseudo endorsement and give them money. When a product is really all about the numbers/software, not sure it makes sense to even give them a First Look until you see at least a little evidence that indicates it has a chance of being successful. I say this with peace and love!
I suspect it’s less Ray wanting to do a first look, and more not being able to put up with the volume of reader requests on a product people know is being made right on his doorstep, especially when there is a Kickstarter deadline involved. Easier to throw up one post than answer hundreds of emails!
Perhaps there’s some confusion, though honestly I can’t think how someone who read through this post would arrive at the conclusion that they’ll hit their timelines. I explicitly say that, including the following:
“Compounding things – the company isn’t releasing any data at this point. You heard that correct, no power data at all. Instead, they prefer to do that with production models down the road.”
“My money would say that IQ2 will succeed in a power meter, that they’ll probably deliver next spring (2019).”
“But, like Elon Musk, I suspect he’s underestimating the difficulties in this product and the timelines involved. There’s a long trail of companies that have tried and failed to develop power meters.”
“When it comes to the underlying technology in their unit – it all sounds great from a hardware standpoint, but none of it will matter without corresponding software to account for all of the environmental and human variables that have caused so many others to stumble.”
Note, these are roughly my definitions for post categories:
First Look: Brief hands-on time in a non-active/ride setting. This includes trade shows and the like where I can’t do my own thing and take it for a workout/etc.
Hands-on: Where I can go and do my own thing, but the product isn’t ready for review yet (meaning, beta/etc…)
In-Depth Review: Final product hardware/software, me doing my own thing.
It’s not a perfect definition thing, but by and large it’s worked fairly well. I was super clear in both the post and the video that a ride didn’t happen and that I was disappointed about that.
Ultimately, I’m trying to be fair and present both sides of any product I touch. As I noted earlier in this comment, I think my piece is super clear on the pitfalls here. In fact, all but the first paragraph of my entire summary section is basically saying be incredibly careful.
I think you were abundantly clear. Folks, take notes from Ray’s sentences: No power data, they might succeed a year after they say they will, they don’t entirely understand what they are doing, and they don’t have the software and this will cause them to fail like many others. Pretty clear to me.
So, I went ahead and backed this. Not only is the price where I think power meters need to be, the described production process seems to eliminate a lot of the variances that need to be compensated for in other systems. The Kickstarter campaign says:
“Our thin film strain gauge is of an entirely different caliber. Instead of being hand-glued, it requires no human interaction because it is directly deposited on the surface of the part, molecularly bonded and trimmed by laser. All our strain gauges are exactly the same when they come out the production process. It’s a revolutionary technology used in situations with zero error tolerance, such as in medical, military and harsh environments.”
Ray (or anyone else), have you heard of this before? Or know if it has been used on power meters before. Seems to make sense, if it is real. (If not – I’d like to know, before the campaign completes)
It’s true in comparison to something like a Stages/4iii/etc that are glued onto a crank arm, but that’s different from how someone like Vector or the PowerTap P1 – which are fully automated.
Said differently: It doesn’t really matter in the real world. And since they haven’t shown any outside data, we don’t really know where they stand there.
I am excited to see how this product pans out. I have been hoping to get a power meter for awhile now but the prices have been to high. I also backed it but will wait to see how the accuracy is and cancel if it is turning into another Limits and of course getting the approval of my wife which may be a challenge :)
Hey Ray, as always thanks for the in depth review! I currently have Garmin Vector 2 left pedal, would I be able to buy a right legal by IQ2 and see dial power meter results on my Garmin/in Garmin connect? I have a Fenix 5x.
Jason,
I think it’s pretty common knowledge that you cannot connect two power meters, two cadence monitors, two heart rate monitors, etc. to one head unit at the same time. I know your not the first to ask this or something similar but I’m a little dumbfounded by these questions as both units would have their own separate bluetooth and/or ant+ ids/streams. Kindalike, you can’t listen to two radio broadcasts from the same radio at the same time. Just one channel at a time. If I understand it correctly, dual power meters talk to each other and transmit only one stream to the head unit. And, they have to be programmed to talk to each other, i.e. same manufacturer.
I’ve been using/testing it a bit lately, but it has some minor bugs/limitations that doesn’t allow it to connect to six-digit ANT+ ID’s, so I can’t connect to my Vector 3 unit (which happens to be six digits, other folks may be 5 or less digits).
Note that as OKRunner said however, it doesn’t ‘merge’ the data into one stream, instead, just plots two piles of it. Unfortunately, there is no standard for dual-sided units to talk between two halfs.
Appreciate the response okrunner, but could have done it without the condescending tone. It’s clearly not common knowledge to everyone, or people wouldn’t keep asking it. Sorry I can’t keep up with every comment on the site.
Sorry if I cam across condescending. I know everyone here is to obtain knowledge surrounding fun/sports. Please don’t take me too seriously. Sorry again.
I backed the dual package. I already use the PowerPod, but would like something to verify it. Im pretty patient so I would not mind waiting until 2019 or whenever. Also, I didnt have the pleasure of experiencing the Limits fiasco.
The project got backed. Lets see how they communicate R & D in the next 30days. They have a video on their kickstarter showing a unit mounted to a mountain bike and a road bike. They show it paring to an app and riding with it showing power data. So the prototype must be further than we know so far…Ray did they give you any info? The video is from April 8th…
Yeah, that’s a little concerning. Ray’s ride was on the 11th, and he couldn’t use it yet, but they are showing videos of it working on the 8th. Something is wrong with this picture. Even if that is a prototype of how it is supposed to work, when it is actually done, they do not make that clear. It appears they are actually using a prototype to receive power data on their software. If that is not the case, they may be posting intententionally misleading videos. That has got to be against the KS rules.
It was slated to go live on Kickstarter last Tuesday, but got held up in a queue by Kickstarter, hence was pushed to this Tuesday.
That initially put my visit to them only a few days prior.
As noted in my post numerous places, I definitely have concerns about lack of access to data – both on the miniaturized variant as well as the lab variants.
Yes, my concern is certainly not with your post. My concern is that in the gallery, along with other photos, they have a video showing Keesjan installing what is referred to as a Design Prototype on to a Mountain Bike, configuring it with an IQ2 app on an iPhone, connecting it to the Strava iPhone app and then producing power data as the bike is ridden down the street. Unless that video is a fake, why couldn’t he have shown that to you (with whatever qualifiers necessary). The video suggests they have a functioning design prototype, producing data.
Agreed. If they had tested it outside the lab then it would be worth taking the risk. As it stands, i think this is a product that will be better when it reaches a second iteration. Good luck to them though – I hope they manage to do something different as well as bringing prices down.
Kickstarter doesn’t require I validate it, but rather, the company has validated it. They show some of that in their video – whether or not it’s real I can’t say.
I’d say it’s different from vaporware in that they’ve got a miniaturized design complete, which may have flaws, but that’s up to them to sort out. Keith’s very first comment in this post illustrates that they have all the core components to make something in the realm of a power meter. And their prototypes they’ve shown in the lab are collecting power data (again, we don’t have that though).
Just like one could argue that since the final-looking design of AeroPod is just an empty shell, it’s not terribly different than this from a pure Kickstarter standpoint (since AeroPod didn’t share data on Kickstarter either).
Of course, I’ve held and used a non-final variant of AeroPod and it’s producing something believable, so that’s a key difference.
But I think the last two sections of this post make my thoughts pretty clear.
Ray, thanks for your response, and most certainly your job doesn’t include Kickstarter compliance! (though you acting in that role would increase any project’s credibility by at least ten times) :-)
I’m guessing that every company that has ever tried to make a power meter has correctly figured out the required core components, and also has built proof-of-concept prototypes.
But that last 1%…many years ago I remember attending an Interbike where a very credible company, with really smart people, was demonstrating its new PM; on a test stand was their prototype, generating very believable power numbers. About 3 years later, they finally got it to market.
I’ll rather say this is a pure engineering company without or missing software knowledge. When looking at the current number of backers, I believe they can invest soon into software development engineers to create a working product.
Like any Kickstarter project, there’s a sometimes fuzzy line between goal and current. Really no different than most non-Kickstarter projects too for that matter. Be it Garmin, Wahoo, or Apple – all tend to be ‘hopeful’ in their longer range projections for products that aren’t immediately available.
Over $300000 in 12h. Double their goal. I have a feel that they have a functional prototype but kept things more closed up. Production facilities are secured in UK and Netherland. With a big backing like this I wonder what the next week will bring from them. Lots of pressure until May 24th.
602,505$ and 27 days to go. let me tell you something: looking at Kickstarter I was 150% confident and convinced they have working prototype and all is missing are $ to start mass production to make it less expensive.
Ray did awesome job in explaining he didn’t have a chance to ride with their product or even look at the data produced by their product.
It is hard to say they if they are that dumb not to let Ray ride with their product because they simply “forgot” or they know there is serious problem to be solved and they do not have it at all.
I’m sure if they would let Ray ride what they have and there would be small accuracy issue, he would say: good product needs some algorithm tweaking but prototype looks good and produces data. Same as in the case of AeroPod which I backed up just because of his video and actual ride with the product.
he said I have no clue about accuracy, but here is how it works now.
mass production has started for the titanium adapter with the strain gauge based on kickstarter and a link to their production partner. link to smdsensors.com
I’m more than happy to once I have a unit I can do so with. It doesn’t sound like that’s going to happen for some time (either by their timelines, or my timelines – what I consider to be realistic timelines).
Hey man! Thanks for your obective review, I haven’t read it all at the begining, but its very realistic. So lets better wait and see what they get at the end, so we know if it’s worth it.
As a slight side question… are there any pedal-based power meters that work with SPD-patterened cleats? This meter looks like a perfect compromise for me. I’m a Crank Brothers user for MTB and CX and ride almost no road (except on a CX bike with slicks). Does anybody make a pedal-based meter that can work with something other than Look-Keo cleats? I’m never going to use road shoes for any purpose so Look-Keo isn’t an option. Maybe it’s going to have to be a spindle-based meter (I am a sucker for Race Face/Easton equipment)…
A lot of food for thought here:
The Kick Starter is currently near 5x Goal with 28 days to run – Demand is validated and financing is assured.
Q factor – I’m dimly aware of it’s existence but it’s not in my consciousness when swapping between bikes.
A bit of Googling suggests that you can buy ‘knee saver’/pedal extenders that increase q factor. So you can validate whether this would make a difference to you while waiting for the product delivery or before dropping coin on it.
I’m a bit risk averse and the target retail price still seems quite sensible. I’ll wait and see how this pans out into a delivered and tried product. When I first see people out riding with them I’ll try to catch up, ask how they are working out, and congratulate them on getting in early on a good deal.
Apologies if this is a stupid question, but if purchasing a single sided power meter, which side is best to choose (given you have the choice?). Left side as its the non chain-ring side?
Also, given the impact to Q-Factor, would singe sided here be a bad option, as it would make you slightly lop-sided?
On the lop-sided question, I believe that IQ said they’ll be providing a ‘spacer’ for the other side to balance it. They also said they might sell after market spaces so in theory you could split a L&R pack into two single-sided packs (if you bought two spacers)
As I see, you have many doubts concerning the success (in time) of the project.
but what I have learned in my business life now for many years: never underestimate the Dutch
It’s silly that they invited you and then didn’t even share with you their power data or even let you ride and record the power data from the device, even if the power data has issues we all know this is a pre-production model that was tested and it’s more then likely that the final production version will iron out the issues.
If they have done that, I would’ve backed and I’m pretty sure many others as well.
There’s a slight issue there in that if you want to swap between bikes you need to helicoil each bike. This means that if you are someone who travels with pedals and kit and rents bikes, you’ll need the tools to remove it ASSUMING they’re using free running helicoils and they’re that easy to remove.
No need for that. The entire installation process is as fast as you see in the video (I think I only cut a few seconds out of it while I refocused camera). Simply bring the tiny little tool (about the size of a grape), and you’re good.
So you’re saying that yes, you do need to helicoil rentals or indeed all your bikes you intend to use it on. Not saying it’s a big deal but they do say that they will sell extra helicoil sets precisely for this reason (I asked the question).
Yup, I actually met with them last fall in fact for a meeting*. They showed me how their tech worked, which was certainly interesting. And they did send me two brief snippets of comparative data later on (they weren’t awesome, but they weren’t horrible either – showed signs of needing some smoothing and such).
To be honest, I can’t quite remember why I didn’t end up writing about them, but I can’t find the Indiegogo campaign at this point that they had launched (looks like it got pulled?). They may have pulled the campaign before I got a chance to write about it. Not sure.
What I do remember from the convo (without digging up notes) is that I thought they were on the right track, but too early to launch from a schedule standpoint. Their industrial design wasn’t quite to the same point as IQ2, though, at least they could share some data.
Thinking about single sided power meters in general and the fact that there maybe 5% – 20% difference between legs. Which side should you put a single sided meter on, the leading or weaker?
I’d argue spend 50EUR more and get dual-sided…it’s worth it.
Generally though, most people are in the order of 2-6% variance per side, 20% is almost unheard of (except injury recovery). And most people tend to vary how much a given leg is dominant as well through varying conditions.
Watching the Kickstarter for this project is amazing.
It is like a house fire that you just can’t stop watching.
That said, I see what Slipstream Sports did wrong in their crowd funding last year.
They didn’t include a vaporware power meter as one of the rewards.
I sure hope this turns out well for the huge number of people who are buying into it.
Just my $.02.
Nice to see that they’ve completed their kickstarter campaign, started an Indiegogo campaign, and still haven’t shown any data.
I also loved their claims that they couldn’t make a functional prototype because it was too expensive to make a one off, so they’re going to do the first full run and hope they can fix everything in post.
I am very interested in this. My reason is having spent over $2000 for Garmin 2S about 4 years ago – they cost me new pods because the originals broke easily (cast alloy) and ow I find that my Durace compact crank (50:34) and 180 on my Specialised S works, the right side pod connection on the inside of the crank will not clear the chain when in the 50:11 gear. I have sheared off two connectors beofre I relaised it does not fit.
So while there might not be many people using 180 cranks with Garmin 2S on a Tarmac, it fundamentally is $2000 wasted. So I will not be buying Garmin again – irrespective of the ‘new’ pedals. This solution allows me to at least continue using the pedals but without the power from them. So bring it on in fact I would like to trial them – one or two sided – even thought the Q factor is increased.
Fwiw – most of the time Garmin support (specifically, Vector support) is pretty happy to help folks out and swap out parts, even in cases of self-inflicted wounds. I’d really consider giving them a call/e-mail/something.
Hi,
The KickStarter campaign ended with 3,536 backers and €932,732 pledged!!
They have started also an Indiegogo campaign.
I think that part of their success is also yours Ray ;-)
Is possible to ask your opinion Ray?
Out of curiosity have you ever spoke with them?
Received a kickstarter email update. There was no data in the email, just production updates.
Everything is “on schedule”.
Plastic molds have come together.
They are selecting electronics based on availability.
They have created and submitted the molds for low pressure molding technique.
Their production lines in the UK are on schedule.
Any updates on this, Ray? Price is not €149 /199 anymore, it’s €159/259 now for single/double. I see they are testing now, have you been in contact with them for a test unit?
Nothing new here. As others noted on their Kickstarter page they said they just started testing/comparative testing outdoors.
Thus, I think given that I suspect my earlier concerns about next year sometime seem pretty accurate. Most power meter companies will spend about 1-2 years in that phase.
If a road bike is typically 150mm and a mountain bike 170mm, that’s a difference of 2 cm switching between bikes assuming your SPD cleats are in same position relative to the crank arms.
Adding 16mm (5/8″) to both sides means a change of 32mm (1-1/4″) overall.
What production bikes have a Q factor of 200mm plus? 170 + 32 = 202
If you only purchase a unit for one crank, how comfortable will most riders be with one foot 16mm (5/8″) off center from the other?
I like the idea of a low-cost power meter that works with any bike but I’d feel a lot better about an OEM pedal solution even if it costs more.
they just released test data today using your comparison tool. Are you reviewing the power meter again?
Or could you give us an update and let us know what you think about the provided data samples?
I saw that, via an Instagram spam post. I know the tool is open to anyone. You know the tool is open to anyone. But to me it feels like they’re trying to imply some kind of endorsement. Until there’s some independent data, I’d not trust anything.
From iQ2’s Indiegogo campaign: “Keep in mind that we’ve only been willing to share test data that comes directly from a ‘real’ power meter, meaning one that comes from our production line. So, what you are looking at here is exactly what you’ll receive at home.”
Not a prototype then, but an actual production unit. Wow. Anyone else a little uneasy that Ray doesn’t have the unit to say nothing of the lack of correspondence with him? My money stays in my pocket until he receives the meter.
Its been a week since your post above, Ray, still nothing? Would you be able to tell us when/if you receive the unit or does that go beyond your usual protocol? I’d understand if it does.
I really soured on these guys when they sent out an email to their Kickstarter supporters saying, “Oopsies, Shimano is suing us for modifying thier pedals and reselling them.” It just shows a lack of business acumen and common sense. In the end, it looks like they lost my order for the pedals, so no harm done there. But when I called BS and said I wanted my money back (which, to their credit, they volunteered to do before I asked), they asked for my bank routing and account info via email. Again, super bush league. As Ray suggested, I am going to assume my investment is gone and will be pleasantly surprised if I receive a pair of halfway decent power meters, albeit with a fat Q factor, sometime next Spring.
That’s data released by a manufacturer. How do you know, for example, that the data is actually from their power meter? How do you know that they didn’t look through hundreds of trials to find the absolute best one, or portion of one, to display? I’m not saying they did that in this case, but I always trust independent third party tests much more than closed tests released by a manufacturer. When Ray and others get a hold of a production unit for testing, then we’ll see how well it actually works. I hope it works well, but the past has shown that power meters are hard to do.
At least looks like the production is started (see link with pics bellow). May be iQ2 guys will not match the 29th November but I guess if not surprise with some cage component, they should be OK for shipping in December 2018.
What concerns me is that they avoid all questions related to data captured by the sensors. And still only state that they will only publish data from a production unit. Apparently at this stage they still don’t have one!
Instead they are only show pictures of the machinery they will be using to build the sensor, with bold claims.
At the same time some things don’t make sense, like advancing a date for delivery for the second time. Getting excuses about missing the September date due to a third party not being able to deliver a titanium part.
But then in October 10, they proudly present the “custom injection molds machine” (they recently received) and will be used produce the sensors casing. October10?? What about the september date? They didn’t had the molds machine by that time.
The project is delayed badly….
I guess this is starting to follow the route of Limits and Brim Brothers product fails.
But then this was a known risk. And I accepted it.
What I don’t accept is their silence and constantly hiding the problems they are facing.
For sure they were optimistic … but it is often the case on kickstarer.
My concern is about the consistency of the precision, and they give clues …
To use the product, they say we need to give the length of pedals (Q factor), witch means the measure is dependent of were we push.
Were we apply force is dependent of the length of the pedals, but also dependant : of the shoes, of the position of the cleats on the shoe, of the way of pedalling (standing..), …
Ray,
Has there still been no contact with you – no offer of a beta product?
Have you contacted them for an update in the last weeks, and have they engaged with you?
Thanks in advance, Dave.
I’m a sponsor of the IQ2 project… I’m assuming I will either never receive a product (unlikely) or receive one that’s basically non-functional and unsupported once they go out of business (likely).
I don’t really have sour grapes with IQ2 — Kickstarter projects are crap shoot and I knew that going in. But the debacle with pre-ordering modified Shimano pedals was very, very close to inexcusable. You can’t modify and sell another company’s products without consulting them, and this is what put IQ2 on my sh*tlist. This is real basic stuff that any businessperson understands.
That said…
Ray: First (shameless sucking up) – You are a huge asset to the cycling community and although I realize maintaining and running dcrainmaker is no longer just a hobby, it’s still commendable. Second, would you be willing to reach out to IQ2, just one more time, with perhaps some sort of ultimatum-ish verbiage? As another poster said, you probably put real cash in their pockets by mentioning the Kickstarter campaign in the first place and they really should be kissing your ass to review test and review their product.
Your last sentence says it all and begs the obvious question: For all Ray has done for IQ2 why should he be reaching out to them not the other way? I understand why, as a backer, you’re seeking his leverage to peel the onion and expose reality, I just don’t know if it’s a smart or worthwhile move for him. He’s set the table, they need to deliver the vittles.
I view crowd-funding projects like venture capital. More important than the concept/idea/product is the quality, experience and previous success of management. I can find nothing that this CEO has done to convince me to throw money his way. I put out a request here for anyone to tell me otherwise. Silence
Have you ever backed a crowdfunded project? Delivery very rarely occurs when it’s “estimated”. I’m still waiting for something I backed at Kickstarter much simpler than a power meter that was “estimated” for October 2017. Highly unlikely anyone “normal” will be getting one next month.
Hi Seth,
I saw the comments of Ray, but as I already saw productions units in the video and as Ray is not a Normal person ( Guru instead) , I sent the link to him in case he can ask them, What is going on? and then tell us.
Jorge, my reading of Ray’s posts is that he’s waiting for IQ2 to reach out to him. In other words, “Send me a working unit when it’s ready.” My opinion is that Ray, with this First Look, has done considerable legwork exposing IQ2 to a much larger audience — myself included. He owes the company nothing, but it, on the other hand, should be eager to send him a unit pronto, IF (in 20 pt type) it is ready for prime time.
I’m not yet a backer, FWIW, but I’d like to be. I’m still skeptical in part because there’s been no contact with Ray. I’m also leery since my research on Keesjan Klant has come up empty on the successful start-up front. By that I’m wondering if has he turned his inventions into enough currency to bet on him again. Mega Windforce is one of his companies but I don’t think it’s been monetized. Open to being pointed in the right direction.
They start asking “bakers” their delivery address.
I see it two ways:
– The sensor is about to be shipped by the end of next week.
– It’s another mkt maneuver to calm down “investors”. Somewhere mid next week they will come up with another excuse / issue and delivery will be postponed another month.
Lets wait and see ….
It is common for a Kickstarter/Indiegogo project to confirm delivery address before they begin shipping. It might even be a required step.
My last Indiegogo gamble ended up 3 years late and in that time I had moved so I am glad they asked.
Data Collection & Production Practicalities
Posted by Astrid (Collaborator)
Hi everyone,
We promised you an extensive data update last week, but we’ll need an extra week.
Collecting Data
Co-founder Woud Vleugel, both triathlete and electrical engineer, has been going out on almost a daily basis cycling with multiple finished-product power meters and a backpack filled with electronics. Simultaneously, another independent party has been performing some final calibration tests in lab conditions, such as calibrating applied force and nullifying temperature, humidity & torque effects on the threads. We can’t wait to share the outcomes, but are still working on the report.
We’re still extremely excited about the test results! Below is a new picture of the data of a short bike ride, comparable to an earlier update. This time, as many of you requested it, we added a link ( link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com ) to the DC Rainmaker analyzing tool, where you can find and access this graph in high resolution and more detail.
Tying Production Together
Now, as all production, testing and practical usage processes are starting to come together… we do have another important topic to discuss: we’re going to need a little bit more time to deliver the first power meters. We’d like to share with you the main reason below and hope you understand, as your support is a huge motivating factor for us.
As you know, iQsquare is creating a one of a kind, mass-produced product. It’s one of the most rewarding and challenging journeys our team has ever been on! We work together with almost 20 manufacturers and our timeline was pretty tight from the beginning. Our collective dream had to start somewhere, right? :) As we are getting really close to our final product and the delivery date, a few of our production partners have been encountering some practical obstacles in the manufacturing process.
One example of this is the placement of a component of the printed circuit board. It’s been recommended that we move it to another location on the board as to have a better fit with the low-pressure molding technique. In short, moving the component provides the best way to guarantee a dust free and waterproof power meter. Obviously, that’s a quality we’re looking for.
First Half of January
So, yes. The good news is that we have a power meter that is showing accurate results; we’ll update you on that in more detail next week. The bad news is that tying together all separate processes isn’t only exact science, but sometimes a bit of an art. We’re putting in the work and are excited about seeing it all come together, but we have to admit it’s a bit of a tough pill to swallow when you’re this close to delivery.
Anyway, we expect the delay to be about three weeks. Taking Christmas and New Year holidays into account, with factories closed, we estimate to have the power meters ready during the first half of January.
It’s not fun to accept that sometimes these setbacks come with startup territory, no matter how hard we want to cross that finish line! Send us your comments, concerns, support…. anything you like. We love hearing from you and it keeps us involved in your thought process as well, which is very important to us.
I don’t suppose you could send Ray a set of meters to test with the components in the “old” location? At least to give us something to look forward to? I’m very interested in this meter since I don’t really road ride (CX and MTB only) and don’t have silly road cleats/pedals/shoes to work with. Since I’m a Crank Brothers user and also can’t justify a US$600+ expense for a crank-based power meter, the iQ^2 looks like a great option but I think most of us would at least like /some/ third-party verification that this is going to work. Even if Ray can’t publish full power numbers yet, at least something that he could test and report on, saying “Yes, these are real and while there is still a little polish to be applied for the final shipping units, you can be assured that this group is on the right track.”
I think doing something like this would go a loooooong way to giving all of us greater confidence in your product.
I guess sometime maybe around next year’s Eurobike you’ll have something production ready to show and sell. Until then we will get escuses over and over again…
I just wanted to point out that the communication above from IQ2 is a copy of a recent email communication from IQ2 sent to “investors” by DCRainmaker member, Markus K. If we want to encourage IQ2 to reach out to Ray, we should be contacting IQ2 directly.
I posted a while back asking Ray to reach out one, final time to IQ2 and have since changed my tune. It’s not Ray’s responsibility to be reaching out to manufacturers. In fact, they should be begging him to review their products, given the influence he has in the cycling community.
What’s the rush? IQ2 will need to take what ever time it takes to get their product to market.
Then they will use the backers as beta testers and possibly adjust some Firmware before they are ready for normal distribution. There are many examples of this first phase ending up in a revised product which performs as expected and a lot of backers being a bit disappointed. At this time when they have a real product available to the market it will for the first time be interesting for them to get tech reviewers to look at the product. Recent events elsewhere have shown that a lot of so called tech review experts on high volume sites are mostly interested in their own revenue and don’t care much about accuracy – its nearly only about being first with the review and to be controversial and generate clicks and hits.
Per my experience and opinion Ray is the only reviewer I know about with a real honest approach, maybe the lama guy is equally honest as well, but that’s it. The rest of them is not really useful for a crowd funded company unless you have a near perfect finished product available. Its no upside to balance the risk of being slaughtered with an alpha or beta product. If you look at RAY and LAMA previews on IQ2 so far its not really contributing that much to IQ2’s interests. They are, maybe correctly, quite low on their expectations that this will succed as a PM product. Hence maybe IQ2 see litle benefit in providing more info until they feel assured they can deliver something which will get a good review conclusion.
They will deliver a product to backers first which are in on the fact that they take risk on this and know they might not be totally satisfied. We are OK with that (I’m a backer), anyone which is not should wait it out. Its not like this is a new product type – there are plenty of PM’s out there. This is just a bit less expensive and the reason for that is that you are willing to wait and take risk. Expect the IQ2 deals to go up in price when normal retail starts. No risk – no opportunity apply here as well.
Also we shouldn’t forget that Ray is living of clicks and ads, he has a real interest in presenting info about IQ2 to generate clicks but without selling out to the industry or to the consumers – he needs to be balanced. The day he loses track of that or appear to not cater for his readers he will loose out. I am not saying this happens here, but expecting the world to come to him sounds a bit like the first step towards that.
If I get the IQ2 product in January I will be surprised, and I expect the firmware will need to be updated at least once before it will be useful in real life. But I have some expectations that I will use the PM during the spring and summer and that’s OK for me.
The last update on IQ2 was more than disappointing. Lets not forget, the product has been in development for more than 2 years and there still is no verifiable power data. I would implore DC at this time to take a more active stance. Indeed he is better placed geographically than anyone else being a mere 50km from IQ2 and within cycling distance a route he has already covered to meet with Keesjan. The issue as I see it is that although DC didn’t endorse the product, what he did do was to endorse the individual behind the campaign Keesjan Klant in his own words “He’s part Elon Musk and part Dr. Emmett Brown from Back To the Future. I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off”. This is an incredibly powerful statement. The success of the campaign is ultimately down to this. I have tried to find evidence of the eminence of Keesjan, however draw a blank. I hope that DC will follow up and alley peoples concerns, even to visit and to see the current progress. Perhaps as backers we should be asking IQ2 to invite DC to visit again they did at the start and that was 6 months ago so I don’t see why not?
Pedro, I asked some time ago here if anyone can find evidence of Klant’s previous successes because I come up empty in my pursuits, just as you have. Nothing back.
Ray’s statement comparing him to Elon Musk leapt off the page when I first read it. It indeed was powerful. The more I come up empty on Klant the more I’m curious about the basis of that pronouncement.
That said, I still don’t think it’s Ray’s obligation to pre-emptively visit or contact the company. It’s up to them to provide a working prototype or market-ready device. It hasn’t.
I’m not a backer and Klant may still succeed. From my remove, however, I’m not comfortable with the way things are proceeding with IQ2. LIMITS redux? Hope not.
I’m certainly up for chatting with them once they have a product that they’re ready to ship. Or, if they want to send over units now and allow me to talk about them (good or bad). Not a review, but a ‘state of where things stand’.
Else, at this juncture it’d just be them trying to leverage me for marketing benefit.
I will say I guess I’m confused as using some of my selective quotes as to why one backed the project. Literally the very next sentences explain why I don’t think the timelines are accurate. I guess I can’t force people to read the article, but man, folks can’t blame me when one doesn’t.
Agree, it’s definitely not on you at all. In all honesty, I would have backed the project until I read your article and skepticism on the delivery timelines. So for me, I am very grateful for your full article, as it stopped me from losing my money.
Just as a (very) minor update. I did e-mail last week basically offering to either provide private feedback/testing, or public thoughts (in other words, same as I do for any other company).
I did notice in a tweet the week prior this to someone else: link to twitter.com
“Sam, when the first power meters are out, we’re going to send a review unit to DC Rainmaker, Global Cycling Network, GP Lama and other respected influencers. We’re looking forward to their opinion/blessing.”
No, that’s just them using the DCR Analyzer like any other person (link to dcrainmaker.com). I don’t have a unit/set nor have I looked at their data (aside from what they’ve posted on their Kickstarter updates).
Seth good to see we are reading off the same page, albeit our belief that DC has more or less skin in this. Anyway I wont spend anymore time on this as for me it is now a lost cause, I only wish I hadn’t invested, anyway c’est la vie.This is a marketing machine that sweeps us up along with our cash. I really am surprised DC was caught up in this and hope that he can unravel from this as the end will be messy.
So 2 years working with a titanium spacer only to state that it is too expensive! Why would they reduce the product cost EUR150 for a dual, the Ti spacers don’t cost this. I can buy 2 Ti pedal spindles for US$29 retail weighing 70 gram, so total of 140 gram so what price would that make the spacer US$5?
They are now desperate, why would they make the announcement of the change and cost reduction, they want to drive more sales to their site as they are seeing a slow down on Indiegogo.
I am gravely concerned that they will prioritise their paying customers as they will have consumer rights that Crowd funding backers don’t have. So don’t expect to see your product anytime soon, if ever. By the week it just gets worse and worse. Does anyone have any updates on Keesjan aka Elon Musk he has gone quiet?
Isn’t the strain gauge mounted on the titanium spacer?
I think they should have gone with stainless steel to begin with especially if that accelerates production.
If IQ2’s strain gauge tech turns out to be valid and easier to mass produce they’re best off licensing it to manufacturers for integration into pedal spindles.
The only loose end to spindle design is how to charge the battery or replace it. The tech needs to be good enough to last for years with a rechargeable battery or button batteries are easily replaced by removing an end cap. Perhaps self-charging could be built into the design. As long as you pedal the battery stays charged. Watts to volts as needed. ;-)
BTW I waited 3+ years for my last Indiegogo project to be delivered and it was a lot less complicated than new power meter tech.
Another surprisingly update. Now an online shop for something that don’t exists yet but will be delivered by the end of January. Another version of their “smoke” product using steel axles instead of titanium which has different density and will affect tuning and calibration. At this point for they are sending a message….
– They need more money.
– They are preparing ground to come up with another lousy excuse to delay everything. This time something around the lines. yeah now we have to deal with 2 different axles and will be a plus for you but we will need another couple of months to get it perfectly with the 2 versions of the product.
So as Ray told us from the beginning will be lucky if everything ships by April 2019. Another guy in the comments at kickstarter mentioned eurobike / September 2019.
What about April 2020?
Sweet dreams….
Merry Christmas to all
Cali, of graver concern is that on looking at this and doing some basic calcs, it would appear Ti isn’t strong enough. That is great as everyone will be getting a St Steel model so will be due a big rebate from IQ2. There is no other reason that they are changing, it is nothing to do with price of the Ti it is everything to do with the fact that the Ti material isnt strong enough. So conclusion is that with St Steel spacer everyone will be given the new low price, I also dont care for 15g saving I prefer to sweat some more, can lose this in sweat in 5 minutes, so good result I will be getting a rebate of EUR150.
Agreed. If the metallic components are the same dimensions a titanium version cannot be as strong as stainless steel. Perhaps they found this out the hard way. ;-)
In DCR’s video it appears the pedal/pod assembly simply slides into the adapter. The only thing holding everything together is a hex bolt. It doesn’t seem logical to do that without bolt and crank adapter tightened to specific torque values. The fit between adapter and pod assembly also needs to be extremely tight. More like a press fit. Perhaps the hex bolt draws the assembly into the adapter and torque doesn’t matter since the device is calibrated after each installation.
Guess we’ll find out soon.
3 weeks with no update and with shipping due to commence mid January 2019.
Cali on further reviewing the profile of the individuals involved nothing more on Keesjan but something very interesting on the Brand Director. Astrid Peters is in fact the Director of a Company Whites Oak Media:- White Oaks Media specialize in developing CEO branding.
A special bond CEO Branding means exactly what it says: turning the CEO of a corporation into a best-selling brand. In talking to some 75 leaders from diverse industries as a media freelancer, I personally discovered that CEOs are often so smart, enigmatic, kind and fun that I’d much rather follow them as people than only hear about their company through a carefully cultivated corporate marketing strategy. Obviously, branding the CEO is marketing too. But it’s the kind that lets you connect to a respectable person first, and his or her products and services second.
It would be interesting to know if DC met with Astrid she is the one who is selling us Keesjan as the next Elon Musk. Hats off to IQ2 for duping everyone with their very clever marketing strategy.
I don’t feel so foolish to being duped now, knowing how they have achieved their success, it is all down to Astrid Peters congratulations Astrid tremendous job.
I don’t know who this Astrid person is, nor do I care.
And quite frankly, having met Keesjan – he definitely hasn’t been groomed like most other CEO’s. Seriously, he’s an engineer first, and anyone who’s met him would immediately realize he’s not a c-suite type. So, not sure why you get that impression. My comments in relation to Elon were pretty straight forward: A super-smart dude who will ultimately build what he sets his mind on, but likely over-commits on what’s possible in the time frame he’s given himself.
It’s amazed me how many people keep taking that out of context or mis-reading it. It’s in plain English above and super clear. Re-read it if it’s confusing. It’s not some magical conspiracy. It’s just a typical Kickstarter/Indiegogo project. Over committing and delays are the name of the game.
In any case, I did exchange two e-mails with Keesjan in the last few weeks, but am essentially waiting just like everyone else.
I wasn’t expecting a response dude, appreciated as I know that you are very busy. If you exchanged emails, then that would imply that he responded to your email? So he basically wasn’t able to advise when we can expect to see product although I would be more interested to see power data? The campaign is starting to turn and there is growing cynicism amongst backers. I am eagerly awaiting next weeks debacle. My thinking is that they will conclude that they cant get titanium to work and that everyone will need to wait for St Steel and a 3 month delay, I could be wrong I haven’t over thought this it is merely me stating my opinion. Lets wait and see.
DC it would seem that Astrid does know you, unless she is deluded or you have a bad memory? I stand by my previous statement she has done a tremendous job to bring in the cash for IQ2 and continues to do so? She has also done a tremendous job to bring on board product influencers and to groom Keesjan only time will reveal the truth.
I’ve never met an Astrid, nor a single e-mail from anyone named Astrid (ever). Seriously. In my entire Inbox, nobody named Astrid has ever sent me an e-mail (and I never delete anything).
It’s plausible someone said hi to me at some trade show or something somewhere, but given I’ve never seen IQ2 at any trade shows – that seems unlikely (and given how many people say Hi at trade shows every hour…). Either way, I’m not seeing anything anywhere that says she knows me? Just because she lives in the same country as me? There’s approximately 17 million people in this country. Or is it because she said my name somewhere on the internet? Many hundreds of people say/post my name every day across the internet.
She hasn’t brought on board any influencers. Neither Shane/GPLAMA or I have been ‘brought onboard’, and if you’ve listened to what we’ve said/wrote – you’d see that. GCN was a paid advert. So obviously, IQ2 paid their ~$25K for that segment and that was that. Just like every other brand you see on GCN, all disclosed on GCN mostly properly these days.
Ultimately, I feel like you’re slowly sliding into tin-foil conspiracy land here. IQ2 is just another Kickstarter project that’s late. That’s it. Maybe they’ll succeed, maybe they’ll fail. The path before them is littered with both. That’s what Kickstarter is about – and the risks I outlined in my post.
DC in the immortal words of Shakespeare me thinks “thou dost protest too much” from the tin foil wrapper___have a good weekend, hope the campaign delivers!
Zosim, delivery Feb’19 you are deluded do you seriously expect to receive your product in February 2019 I was quoting what was on the campaign. Everyone seems to forget that IQ2 were to give us power data 6 months ago, they have moved the focus to delivery and not power data claiming power data can only be shown on production models. Give us power data, why not, they only have issue with production delivery but not product so no reason why we cant be shown power data. The reason is they cant show power data, they don’t have. Lets not forget they are now 6 months late and that is into a 2 year development. So after 2.5 years they cant show any power data. What surprises me even more is that no one spends the time to look through previous posts to state the obvious, there are so many inconsistencies that it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Zosim, why not spend the time to review previous posts to do just that instead of criticizing me?
“Everyone seems to forget that IQ2 were to give us power data 6 months ago”
They did do this. At least, technically speaking they did release some data (a few times I think).
Was it complete untouched .FIT files? No. Was it the actual links to the DCR Analyzer? No. But, it was data nonetheless.
Don’t get me wrong, I do wish they’d release more data (untouched .FIT files specifically), but, it seems somewhat part for the course for this project, since they didn’t release data from Day 0.
As said elsewhere it’s Kickstarter; getting upset by delays is just pointless. They will either deliver or they won’t. I backed a mudguard which is ( currently) a year late. I’ve had a refund but only because I don’t own a bike with QR any more so I can’t use the guards.
I wasn’t upset at the creator, it’s inevitable that first time makers will be late. The only on-time Kickstarter I’ve had was from Knog (although their shipping was dire).
As an aside. Given they did upload to the analyzer, are you not able to see the source info or does your t&c prohibit this (kudos if so as I guess that’s a blurry boundary between software provider and hardware reviewer)
Wouldn’t matter if he did. They uploaded a binary file in a documented format. It’s easy enough to edit it before uploading to change the source.
I’ve had good luck with the 20+ I’ve backed Kickstarters except for one, which it’s clear now will never deliver a product. Most are on time or near on time (one, MST3K, even got moved to Netflix).
RE: “are you not able to see the source info or does your t&c prohibit this”
Nope, I don’t look at any users/companies/whatevers data in the Analyzer, period. That’s their data. Plus, I’ve got too much of my own data to deal with first.
(Obviously, if someone sends me a link to look at, I’ll help them out.)
RE: Faking .FIT files
It’s true, you could edit the source. I find that’s more challenging than it looks though, especially if there’s other data (cadence/HR/speed/GPS), in order to validate it’s not real. Removing simple 1-sec power spikes is easy work and mostly hard to detect. But doing anything more than a few seconds is pretty tricky when there are other data metrics.
I wasn’t thinking that they edited the entire file. If they were getting desperate, they could simply record a track using an known good power meter, and then change the sensor id to their own (or probably, to “Unknown power meter” since they probably don’t have one yet). I don’t think they did that, but I do think that they might have cherry picked the data to show. As I said earlier, I’ll believe the data once it comes from 3rd party testers in real world conditions.
It would be great if you could do a follow up on this. Surely there has been some new developments at IQ2 as their website says they expect to start shipping units by March?
I placed an order for a SS unit yesterday. I’m glad I didn’t jump last year because the waiting would have been too much to bear. As it is, several requests for a timeframe have gone unanswered and I’m hoping (but not counting) on it to arrive in February. I also anticipated niggles as every start up has. Still, I’m interested in this succeeding and hope to be a part of the first group. Some of that requires a bit of faith
Still no power data and still the same lame excuse that until they have production units they wont send to reviewers. Good luck with that, this to me seems the biggest Ponzi scheme ever and Keesjan is a very convincing guy who continues to bring in revenue by discounting once again the units to EUR129. That is how to drive sales it pissses me off as an early investor that they are now discounting and offering cheaper product and for presales they will be shipped before the Kickstarter and Indiegogo backers units as legally they will be requited to.
Its February and they should be already shipping units to first backers and neither Ray nor Lama received the unit for test and review. I want to order one too, but this holding me back, its bad sign.
Daniel, its a wise decision, don’t move forward yet.
There are still a lot of days til the end of February. If they ship something on the 28th its still February.
But as usual around the 25 I believe the shipment date will be pushed forward again blaming some 3rd party.
These guys have better marketing skills than engineering or “production” ones, so, if they already had a real working unit working – “The ONE” – that would be mass cloned without flaws, for sure they have posted several details and metrics about it with lots of hype.
But we only get push forwards and the recent drop of price at their WebShop raises me concerns. They are selling something which doesn’t exists yet with a discount price. I wonder if thats a sign the “dough” is running out.
Some guys here talk about “Keesjan Klant” this and that. I did my own digging and this guy is a Concept Design Engineer. How many awesome/amasing “design concepts” turn into real production goods at a low cost?
– Very few ;-/
Lowering the price before delivering the first unit is not promising and counter-intuitive to the crowd funding structure. I.e., “You take the risk, we give you a rock-bottom price, never to be offered again.” Klant has to be short of capital. Going back to this well also suggests there were no private stashes he could tap — something that would be a lay-up if he had a finished, accurate and working product. Troubling.
You’re spot on about Klant. He has yet to show an ability to monetize his designs. Any of them
When I looked at IQ2’s team of 6 half a year ago, 50% were in promotion not product. I’ve kept my powder dry since.
I always end my posts on this subject with, I hope I’m wrong. Long have I been in the market for a truly affordable power meter. I hope I’m wrong.
So I did a little bit of social media stalking by myself and found some more or less interesting facts: since last July, IQ² is the main sponsor of a Dutch 2en division triathlon team (Triathlon Vereniging Haarlemmermeer). Later on, they founded a new pro triathlon team (link to trikipedia.nl) with complete sponsoring including a house (!) for the athletes to live in. Some of these guys participated in the 2019 Dubai Ironman 70.3 challenge and posted about this on facebook. Since they linked the official IQ² FB-page in their posts, you can find it there. In one post, the athlete (Milan Brons, finished on place 15 in Dubai, great job!) confirmed that even the pro team didn’t received their units yet. However, on the Instagram account of one of their employees (according to linkedin he is the R&D Manager at IQ²,the Instagram account was public until Tuesday, now it’s private) was a pic of the guy testing the power meter on his bike (you can still find the links to the pics on his twitter account). It seems to me that they are now practice a more restricted policy regarding their social media appearances, even the linkedin profile from Mr Klant was turned to private. To keep a long story short: it looks to me that they actually got a finished product but they are still testing internal. Maybe we will see them shipping out the first units this month :-)
I wonder if the folks at iq2 recognize that getting you a production unit amounts to probably a 10% sales boost. I imagine there are a lot of people waiting on a review (and actual shipping units) to make a decision.
There is a question on their Twitter Page, if they plan to send units to reviewers for testing and iq2 team replied on 29/01 that as soon as first units is ready, they will send it to Ray, GP Lama and a few others. So it indicates , that they still don’t have it done + price drops… Cali was right, when wrote – If they would have “The ONE” – for sure they have posted several details and metrics about it with lots of hype.
It depends. There’s the “Lets get everything out there ASAP” approach where people shoot you to pieces because they don’t believe it or there’s something not 100% yet (aka Minimum Viable Product). Or there’s the “Lets wait until it’s done” approach where people shoot you to pieces because they don’t believe you.
I don’t think IQ2 have much chance. They’ve said all along that when they have their final production units ready to be shipped, they’ll send review models from this batch. So far they’ve stuck to their word but it’s supposition to suggest it’s either they are just doing what they said or that they have nothing or are struggling.
This thread (and others) are just filling the void that is left by a lack of public statements. Unremitting negativity is as bad as unrelenting optimism.
An interesting clause in the T&C’s for the pre-order of IQ2. I would doubt whether anyone has even bothered to read these.
2. Payment
You will be charged the full Price of the Products at the time of placing the Pre-Order. If iQsquare is unable to commence shipping the Products on or before the one-year anniversary of your placing the Pre-Order, iQsquare shall process a full refund to you. Your placing of a pre-order constitutes your express agreement to iQsqaure of charging the full Price of the Producs at such time.
So basically they are so confident to ship in April’19 that they have put this clause to state that full refund would be available after one year from order placement this is far from standard.
Full refund is available any time a purchaser wants if they are unhappy with delays or just because they want their money back, see clause 6. Its pretty standard to include a clause ensuring agreements don’t go stale I wouldn’t read too much into this.
I would like to believe that iq2 team delivers PM on time, but fact that it has been February and no update from developers, PM was discounted before even started to sell…. doesnt help me to stay optimistic. I am really considering to order Powertap g3, which is on uk amazon now for only 223 pounds.
I saw an update on their Facebook page this morning stating GPLama and DC Rainmaker will be getting production units soon, so we can see some real life test data.
I for one can’t wait, as I really want to get some feedback from them both before committing to purchase.
I would love to believe that this product will deliver as promised and I am sure many of my friends will jump on this opportunity when it arises, IF it is up to standard.
Until then however, there is one major aspect that I fail to understand from an economic point of view and which makes me quite sceptical on whether this hype will result in an actual and reliable product: the pricing strategy.
I would totally understand that to enter an established market and to either “cannibalize” on the competitors (i.e. gaining market share from zero to reach critical mass) or to stimulate the market by creating new customers who did not have the money for a PM until now (which benefits all producers, but the newcomer the most), would justify such a low price, which at 150 EUR is about a third that of a Stages powermeter, at most. However, the move to actually LOWER that price even further to 130 EUR seems mindboggling to me, irrespective of the rationales on alternative materials used! The real advertising value was the implicit message that an accessible and RELIABLE powermeter can be mass-produced and sold at a third the price of that of the competition. Too low of a consumer price would at some point raise more questionmarks and disbelief about reliability and become counter-productive, since there is no such thing as a free lunch and potential buyers would simply not believe that the competition had such profit margins on their products (or such bad technology) to justify a 3-5 times higher price-point. To give a further discount on something that is already extremely cheap, has no justification whatsoever from a sales point of view, especially since production has limitations due to the mentioned process of molding and the production process, as mentioned by the developers. To actually lower the price at this point, either means an extremely immature financial planning or market entry strategy, or the more likely scenario: damage control. In other words, that the product (concept) is failing and the developers deem it suitable to either limit the financial damage as part of their exit plan (perhaps due to a legal ceiling of the amount they can still justifiably keep in pocket for “work delivered”, meaning the creative process until now), or to actually (purposefully) try to hold back orders, to avoid a fiasco in case they cannot deliver. I am sure that if any of the readers knows EU law on taxation and lawsuits, they would find interesting paragraphs regarding financing through crowdfunding, who knows whether this is something that is aimed at right now by lowering prices? Speculation aside, fact is that currently the firm is artificially decreasing their income and even bring their own rationales why they want to earn less. Does this make sense?..
Hopefully it is just a (logistical) delivery issue and their strategy is aimed at curbing enthousiasm and decreasing order numbers until they get their things in order, perhaps until they actually have their first batch out and consumers can beta-test these sufficiently until an acceptable end-product is being produced. I’m afraid though that even if that is the case, the consumer will be the victim of such guinea-pig practices either way: crowd-funding a concept that is still a dream, but not reality yet. In that sense, this product still does not exist, except in the minds.
I for one will only buy such a product once its functioning has been proven, without bias and media/developer manipulation.
Peka, you might want to consider that they merely want to push revenue and to achieve a target of say EUR2M. Once this target is achieved they will bring in equity investment, I would think EUR500K to fill the hole. They are losing their shirt on a retail price of EUR129. Ignoring all of this and of graver concern is, where is the POWER DATA. IQ2 have clearly focused on marketing to pull in sales and continue to do so even after months of failing to deliver. The one thing that would drive sales for sure is comparative power data with the industry leaders and yet nothing and if even more incredulous no one asking for data, everyone has forgotten this.
I think you have misunderstood the essence of my remark: if they would want to “push” revenue by lowering prices of the cheapest option even more, one would have to assume that this results in increase in both sales and total revenue. My opinion is that at this pricepoint, those who are buying the product due to its low price, have already done it, or are new buyers that heard of it by chance, previously unaware of the products previous 150 EUR price. I don’t believe that there is a significant threshold around the 130-150 EUR mark, where suddenly they would sell that many more pieces: the threshold likely lies arounf the 200 EUR mark and anything below that is extra but does not further stimulate sales of the target group. Considering a regular Gauss-curve for sales, the additional sales volume resulting from lowering this already quite favourable price, should be minimal. It has virtually no marketing value as it does not result in any media coverage, so the only potential (additional) buyers are either those who did not find the 150 EUR acceptable, but do so for 130 EUR or new/incremental buyers. The 20 EUR lost revenue per sales for the incremental buyers (who would have bought it anyway, for 150 as well) would have to outweight the profits of the first group (who are buying it because of the 20 EUR discount), since they do need to pay the production price and their overheads. Such a low price could indicate, as you said, that they are already making a loss on this. So how would a further negative result improve their revenues, when they need to pay bills?.. Every company’s initial period is the most capital intensive, due to the overheads, patents, production guarantees, blueprints, advertising/PR, etc. Since production is limited, it would only work if they do not actually deliver, but collect the revenues for the virtual sales, without guarantee. Which means the new buyers are basically buying on credit, since they are last in line (on paper, at least)..
Raising venture capital only works if you convince the investors with a solid business plan. No money can be raised by simply showing for higher revenues, as towards the investors this does not go with increased chances of a successful market launch. Investors are convinced through a solid financial picture and a business plan that nails it, definitely not by these irrational discounts right at the start.
IQ team announced new update with picture of first batch, which will be delivered soon. It looks promising, however I would not be to optimistic. The promised to start ship on February, which will not happen as they want to test is first. Nothing against it, but another delay. I contacted them regarding shipping volume of each batch, delivery time for e-shop orders – (they still say March), app release date on Google play and apple store, sending units to Ray and Shane Miller. I got prompt answer, but there is not a single specific information. Just empty words. It seems to me at least suspicious, that at time, when they have started to received first complete units, still have nothing specific to say, cannot answer simple question, which the should know answer for (when/if production started). I find the way they communicate wrong and dishonest and don’t believe a word in their updates anymore, nevertheless wish and hope in their success. I don’t play down complexity and difficulty to produce something like that and am aware that some complications naturally occur, but don’t like to lied and even if they eventually bring functional product, this should be change. But what I know, I don’t work in public relations , so maybe that’s the way it is.
I think they have an established pattern of not committing to a specific date until they’re ready to ship and nothing has changed. With all due respect toRay and Shane I don’t see them getting units as the critical path for me getting a unit.
The point is not that Ray or Shane NEED TO get a unit… the point is: without independent review, how do you know if the data you receive from the unit is accurate?
At this price point and whatever has not happen yet from the IQ2 who promised “the heaven” and so far only shown b###it, keep pushing forward whats important, do any of you believe the IQ2 will have an accuracy of 1% as they state? I won’t, but then I don’t care, I want one to train with power for myself not to compare to somebody else’s power.
What if the accuracy is off by 5% or more. These independent reviewers will slam the product down and that will kill future sales (check GPLama review about the ronda/xcadey stages clone for example) . IQ2 is afraid of these guys if their product is not as good as they are promoting it. For promoting their mass pre-sales GPlama and DCRain mkt pushes were all the pitch they needed to “attract the herd”.
If we all waited so far , waiting a couple of more month will be the same. In the meantime maybe they’ll finally ship something and who knows…. The sensor is as good as they stated. They will be genius, sales rates will ramp up. And I and all the other non-full-believers are just haters.
i’m dreaming awaked!!!
Have fun
Agreed! For that price I’m fine with 5%. But without any independent reviewing it could be 30% and no consistency (which obviously does matter), and I still wouldn’t know. I just want to know what we’re getting :-)
Eventually the independent reviewers will have access to a unit and we’ll known their opinions. Being ignorant I would say Ray’s is also a baker of this product and like all the bakers will someday receive his unit.
If the units are indeed within the promised specs they’ll want to have good reviews from anyone to drive new sells. Iq2 has being driven their dream product based on pure arrogance and hype. They are fast posting valueless facts and keep hiding the real ones.
As much as I like Rays and specially Shane’s reviews, these guys have too much media power. For manufactures they are a double edge knifes. They can drive sales madly or crash and burn any product they are not to found of.
A week past their latest “promised” ship date and no word from the company. Guessing the tests on the “production” units didn’t go so well and there are fatal flaws that they don’t know how to fix. Maybe they shouldn’t have spent money on that tri team. I want to be pleasantly surprised, but right now, they are acting like a company in serious trouble.
DC, time for you to call this one out for what it is? You endorsed Keesjan Klant that is surely now in question? Given their most recent announcement, I would question that they will ever ship a product. It will be interesting to see once the forensic accountants pick this one apart as they did with Zano, where the cash has been spent. I am sure there are more surprises than on a Tri team in Dubai. Bet Astrid Peters could reveal a thing or two on this?
DCR did not endorse the product, he said “So yes – if you’ve got 149€ to spare (or 199€ for the dual-leg) and don’t need a power meter this year – then give the wheel of Kickstarter fortune a spin. It might just pay off. ”
Thats different entirely. It not Rays job to “call this out”. The market will decide, when it all becomes clear.
I decided to cancel my order and get a 2nd hand stages so I can train with power this season, but I watch with interest. (& hope for my other bike).
Justin and I quote:-
Meeting with the founder Keesjan Klant was without question interesting. He’s part Elon Musk and part Dr. Emmett Brown from Back To the Future. I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off. He and his team are certainly smart enough – and he’s got a long resume of far greater and more complex engineering projects to work from.
If that isn’t an endorsement then what is, not of the product but of the individual behind the campaign. DC states he has zero question, that means he has no doubt that Keesjan will deliver so I rest my case. You clearly didn’t ultimately invest but cancelled your order, but many did and I am sure based on this endorsement. You might want to question Keesjan’s background, please list the projects that have been so convincing to DC, a patent for a universal adaptor?
Finally I am interested to note that you cancelled your order, how, you cant cancel Kickstarter or Indiegogo nor can you cancel your pre order, so please can you tell me how to cancel, I am sure 10K individuals would be interested to know how you did cancel to get a refund.
Ultimately, people read what they want and ignore what they don’t want to hear.
If one analyzed my summary section, you’ll find 7 paragraphs (plus one line). One paragraph is positive towards IQ2, 5 paragraphs are negative towards their plans, and one paragraph is mixed.
Ultimately, as I note in the post multiple times – it’s a Kickstarter project. Treat it as a gamble at Vegas, and never expect it on time. I outlined numerous times in the post that I thought they had a lot of work to do and that hitting their timelines was unlikely. They’re doing exactly what I said they’d do. Re-read what I wrote. Nothing has changed.
There’s nothing to call out – I’ve discussed it in live streams, podcasts, and plenty of other places. It’s exactly the same as it was nearly a year ago. We wait, as simple as that.
In theory it is possible to cancel the pre-order any time: “6. CANCELLATION
You or iQsquare may cancel this reservation by terminating the Pre-Order at any time for any or no reason prior to our notice to you that your Product is ready for delivery. If you do so prior to our notice of delivery, you will obtain a refund of the purchase Price without interest. If iQsquare cancels your reservation you will receive a full refund of the purchase Price without interest. Cancelling can only be done by sending an email to info@iqsquare.com.”
As promised last week, here’s another update. We’d firstly like to address the frustration that some of you have expressed, both here and on our social media channels. We completely understand you. If we weren’t the inventors of this product, but instead waiting on the other side as backers, we’d be equally disappointed by the shifting delivery dates and perceived lack of technical information.
Having acknowledged that, we do want you to understand that we don’twant to communicate any solid dates without being able to back them up. We did that in the beginning and it backfired a few times, leaving you surprised and somewhat suspicious in the process. So instead, we poured effort and time into getting two wonderful guys on our team as customer support, Glen and Kenneth. This way, everyone has access to information while we, as a startup company, work on the solutions. As for the community offering to help with our technical challenges, it’s very much appreciated :) We’re already working with (inter)national experts who are guiding us through some of the latest challenges, so we’re covered in that department.
Now, on to the update!
We mentioned last week that we experienced some hiccups that were challenging to solve with software. This week, after running multiple tests – inside, outside, pedal-focused, product-focused, crank-focused and more – we are a lot closer to reaching a conclusion on how to fix it. It seems there are possibilities within rewriting part of the software that will help minimize any inconsistencies in power readings. This should be good news!
As soon as we reach our conclusion, we’ll be back on here sharing it with everyone. We look forward to a positive result.
Well that was a suprise, IQ2 are now proposing a pedal based Keo compatible pedal. It would be interesting to know what you think of the complete turnaround DC? Does that fit with your statement “I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off”. I note many individuals on Indiegogo, Kickstarter and on FB are now more than unhappy.
IQ2 will no longer be able to offer a low cost solution, they are offering a pedal and will be offering this at a comparable price to the competition. It took Garmin 7 years to develop their pedal based system, IQ2 are underestimating the task ahead of them, good luck and lets see ultimately what Klant can deliver. He will run out of money long before the product is ready? I see on FB many have requested refunds and these are not forthcoming, doesn’t bode well. Will you now call this for what it is?
IQ2 would do well to watch the following link to youtu.be of real concern is his comments on the new pedal solution, it doesn’t bode well. As for the product ready in August 2019 you are entirely right in what you say assuming they still have the money to complete and I would seriously doubt that.
I swim, bike and run. Then, I come here and write about my adventures. It’s as simple as that. Most of the time. If you’re new around these parts, here’s the long version of my story.
You'll support the site, and get ad-free DCR! Plus, you'll be more awesome. Click above for all the details. Oh, and you can sign-up for the newsletter here!
Here’s how to save!
Wanna save some cash and support the site? These companies help support the site! With Backcountry.com or Competitive Cyclist with either the coupon code DCRAINMAKER for first time users saving 15% on applicable products.
You can also pick-up tons of gear at REI via these links, which is a long-time supporter as well:
Alternatively, for everything else on the planet, simply buy your goods from Amazon via the link below and I get a tiny bit back as an Amazon Associate. No cost to you, easy as pie!
You can use the above link for any Amazon country and it (should) automatically redirect to your local Amazon site.
Want to compare the features of each product, down to the nitty-gritty? No problem, the product comparison data is constantly updated with new products and new features added to old products!
Wanna create comparison chart graphs just like I do for GPS, heart rate, power meters and more? No problem, here's the platform I use - you can too!
Think my written reviews are deep? You should check out my videos. I take things to a whole new level of interactive depth!
Smart Trainers Buyers Guide: Looking at a smart trainer this winter? I cover all the units to buy (and avoid) for indoor training. The good, the bad, and the ugly.
Check out
my weekly podcast - with DesFit, which is packed with both gadget and non-gadget goodness!
Get all your awesome DC Rainmaker gear here!
FAQ’s
I have built an extensive list of my most frequently asked questions. Below are the most popular.
You probably stumbled upon here looking for a review of a sports gadget. If you’re trying to decide which unit to buy – check out my in-depth reviews section. Some reviews are over 60 pages long when printed out, with hundreds of photos! I aim to leave no stone unturned.
I travel a fair bit, both for work and for fun. Here’s a bunch of random trip reports and daily trip-logs that I’ve put together and posted. I’ve sorted it all by world geography, in an attempt to make it easy to figure out where I’ve been.
The most common question I receive outside of the “what’s the best GPS watch for me” variant, are photography-esq based. So in efforts to combat the amount of emails I need to sort through on a daily basis, I’ve complied this “My Photography Gear” post for your curious minds (including drones & action cams!)! It’s a nice break from the day-to-day sports-tech talk, and I hope you get something out of it!
Many readers stumble into my website in search of information on the latest and greatest sports tech products. But at the end of the day, you might just be wondering “What does Ray use when not testing new products?”. So here is the most up to date list of products I like and fit the bill for me and my training needs best! DC Rainmaker 2023 swim, bike, run, and general gear list. But wait, are you a female and feel like these things might not apply to you? If that’s the case (but certainly not saying my choices aren’t good for women), and you just want to see a different gear junkies “picks”, check out The Girl’s Gear Guide too.
Like with that other one that went in between the pedal…. Not sure how it’ll compensate for the pedal offset. All the spindle based sensor units (vector and Look and assioma) use two strain gages offset a distance between them to create a differential bending beam, and then have multiple around for sensitivity / angle compensation. So minimum of 4 needed, 8 for angle, and 16 for sensitivity and angle as 4 sensors. It’s hard to believe this would have that necessary offset for two gages in that space, thus it’ll end up having the same issues as that other one I suspect – Limits or whatever. I do find it interesting they are using the same ADC (ADS1247) I used in my original Accuity design 5+ years ago.
Your are completely right ! It is impossible to measure a force with only one measuring point in the axis direction; they are just measuring a torque between pedal and crank arm, so the force, and than the power precision should not be better than 20% ? and depending on the pedal offset and the way of pedalling : sitting, standing …
Regarding what we really see working, to me it seems they have a fairly nice mechanical prototype, but the rest … proto of a data logger on a strain gage Wheatstone bridge, a configuring phone application I am not even sure is connected to anything ? Even the cadence early prototype seems to use a magnet (the product is not supposed tu have one on the frame, is supposed to use accelerometers)!
If they had a usable proto, they would have showed it ! I am nearly sure they do not have any …
How do you know they are using à ADS1247 ? You have seem it on photos ?
For information in the kickstarter comments :
“””””””””””
Keesjan Klant Creator 1 day ago
What we have learned from previous power meter projects is that the hardest part is not to make a working prototype, but to mass-produce power meters. We analyzed why it is so difficult to mass-produce a power meter, and our conclusion is the inconsistency of the current glued strain gauges.
Every power meter with a glued strain gauge has different characteristics that needs extensive calibration and complex software.
With this knowledge, we did things different, we started our design from the end to the start and found a way to make every power meter exactly the same in mass production. The solutions is a laser trimmed thin film deposited strain gauge that is molecular bonded to our titanium adapter. This thin film strain gauge is, compared to normal strain gauges, immune to temperature changes and has exactly the same linearity, every power meter again.
We think it is not fair to give data of our prototype and show the world we can build a prototype that works, instead of showing the world we can mass-produce a power meter that is accurate in every condition and affordable for every cyclist.
When the first mass production power meters are produced, we certainly give accuracy data to our backers. We hope you have just as much trust in our new approach as we have!
In addition, we cannot thank you enough for your support, without your support we were not able to give every cyclist the opportunity to ride with a power meter.
“””””””””””
=> so there is not any usable prototype …
From what I understand they’re not measuring strain on the spindle outside of the crank but on the insert/adapter which is located in fixed position inside the crank arm pedal thread (basically at the end of the spindle, inside the crank arm). Hence compensating for pedal offset is not necessary.
I am not sure I understand all you said ?
For power, we need torque in the centre of rotation (bottom bracket), it is why it is possible directly measure torque on crank arm … (if your are not where is applied the force to the crank arm : the pedal thread/spindle).
It is why on the pedal spindle it is needed to measure the perpendicular force, and calculate the torque with the length of the crank. But what I understand is they only measure torque on spindle (witch is depending were and how is applied force), and thus need to estimate perpendicular force…
From what I have seen, all precise pedals are measuring 2 torques to have force.
The thing is they don’t really measure it on the spindle. Technically measuring point is in the crank arm (adapter/insert with strain gauges is inside the crank arm pedal thread which is inside the crank arm, not outside of it like the rest of the spindle).
On drawings/plans/photos I see they are on a free ring between : the thread for the pedal, and the part in the the crank arm. It seems logical, as bending would be dependent of other pats in front of the threads.
Were did you see it was inside ?
I’ve seen they mentioned it on their kickstarter page in a discussion with backers. Now I’ve seen photos where in fact strain gauge is outside of the crank but exactly on the point where screwed in pedal thread ends.
So tempted, but given the Limits fiasco (last ‘communication’ was Nov 2017) I am worried this will go the same way.
At least, unlike the Limits Indiegogo campaign, you can cancel your pledge before the campaign ends, if they have no numbers to show by then.
I am also unsure whether these pods are compatible with pedals that only use a hex wrench, for example my current Look Keo Max pedals – is there a hole through the adapter to attach the pod and pedal?
I believe in KS you can cancel, until the campain has reached its goal.
On KS you can cancel your pledge at any time until the campaign is finished.
I know, and I plan on doing just that if I have too many doubts in the last few hours of the campaign.
200 Euros for dual-sided is way cheaper than anything else I can get here (less than half the cost of Powertap P1S pedals, for example), BUT… I can get them and they have been proven to work.
29 days to come up with believable data. No pressure ;)
I am mostly looking for an option to use mountain bike pedals with an easy to install power-meter.
I just switched to keo cleats on my road bike because of the Powertap P1. I was quite happy with my SPDs before that.
It looks like a refined Limits powermeter.
Pros: 199€ for the dual-leg it’s a real deal! It’s compatible with any road/mtb pedal and it’s easily moveable.
Cons: 16mm q-factor increase, no power data at this moment, have to wait 1 year.
I think I’m going to wait until they show accurate power data.
But the 16 mm or 1,6 cm attachment distance/thickness to the side can cause significant leg positioning issues… And I can imagine, that in some cases the cleat adjustment won’t solve this issue.
On the other hand, the benefit can be on triathlon races in T1, in a combination of flat pedal with cage and running shoes. Because running shoes are wider then road shoes…
On the maxim of 95% is easy, the last 5% is the killer – it feels like these guys are 70%?
I think when it comes to Q-factor, users fit in to one of four groups:
Never heard of it
Know what it is but not bothered about it
Know what it is and like to think it’s a significant factor in their cycling
Know what it is and it actually is a significant factor in their cycling
I’d suggest that the last group is pretty small and doesn’t have to worry about choosing and buying PMs, especially low-cost ones.
True, and interesting that my schooling on Q factor comes from DCR University.
Specific leg/knee/ankle/hip injuries can be a significant bike fitting Q factor, and of course it is a smaller segment of the population. There too there are other power meters that has zero Q impact.
Still, glad to see the first two groups helping to pull down power meter prices.
“When purchasing single-leg you can even select whether that’s left or right you want.”
does that mean that the dual-leg could be split to one left and one right single leg?
I also have this question. It might be interesting. You’re essentially buying a two-pack of single leg meters for a little more than the cost of one. Also wondering if they could be mixed. I have a Stages left crank already. Could I put the right side one on that bike and get a dual-leg system and then put the left one on another bike?
I’ve pledged for the L&R package and asked this very question – I don’t think it will be possible out of the box though. Looking at the bundles you can choose an L or an R not just a generic single sided option which suggests that they’re different somehow. They could be daisy chained together from a broadcasting point of view I suppose but could it be more likely to do with thread direction on the adaptors?
Just realised we were talking at cross purposes – I was referring to using the right pod from the dual bundle on the left pedal of a second bike not using the left on one and the right on the second. I’m not sure how good an idea this would be though, would it not introduce further inaccuracies when comparing, say, your race and training bikes? If you’ve a 52/48 L/R split then that’ll be quite a significant difference – 2×52% v 2×48% of your total?
They talk about a set of a left and a right unit as if they are separable, technically does not seem to be any reason they couldn’t be used on 2 bikes. Given the ease with which they can be moved, it would be easy enough to use on one bike to check your left right balance, then use them on two different bikes. Hopefully we will get a difinitive answer.
Left and right pedals have different thread directions, so there’d be no way to put a right pedal unit on the left.
Yup. After the LIMITS debacle I will say that they are apparently being far more honest about where they are. Having said that, I’ll quite happily crowdfund a campaign to take a product from prototype to production, I’m no longer interested in crowdfunding things from idea to working prototype. Right now it looks like they have a non-working mockup if its never actually left the lab, and that’s just not enough.
Getting in a price-range where it would difficult to justify not getting one :)
199€($243) for Dual Leg, so about $150 less than Watteam Powerbeats.
Of course this is currently non-existent, and who knows what their actual pricing will be. Is it worth $150 and 5 months to bet on possible vaporware?
Hope it isn’t vaporware, because it would probably force other manufacturers to lower their prices.
Very appealing but it could turn into another “Limits” nightmare. This will be inside my head for some days tough!
I would suggest you pledge at the lowest price, then give them 30 days to show some data. If not, withdraw your pledge.
The left or right only are not an early bird special (no limit). The combo of L & R is only about $60 more, if early bird. Although it’s moving pretty quickly. You can still withdraw your pledge ;)
Looks like this could be an option for MTBing, provided as HdB earlier questioned, they work with hex wrenched pedals. If I had the $250ish to spare, I would be on this. Especially with the ability to give 30 days to show data and hear Ray’s thoughts.
Watched video — yeas hex wrenched pedals work!
Well, I was far more hopeful than this. Supposedly they were releasing a GCN youtube release special. Don’t see it. Strange these guys knew the rules, “get Ray on board”. And yet, no power data whatsoever. So, it appears GCN won’t run their spectacular release video and Ray is not on board. Pretty much sums it up for me.
That said, I was already very skeptical. I understand the purpose of kickstarter for new ideas from small unfunded folks. But here, these guys have significant means at their disposal. Why a kickstarter then? Why not just bring it to market? Now we learn they built a dummy shell but don’t have the tech to put the works inside it. That’s false advertising folks. That would be fraudulent and a crime in any other market. I’ll sell you sum beach front property here in Oklahoma, it looks just like Hawaii. I’ll send you pictures, I promise.
GCN did discuss this PM briefly on this week’s GCN show. Briefly is the key word.
Love you Ray, but I am a little surprised you would give another ultra low cost powermeter the “First Look” treatment without any numbers whatsoever. Undoubtedly many folks will (mistakenly) view this video as a pseudo endorsement and give them money. When a product is really all about the numbers/software, not sure it makes sense to even give them a First Look until you see at least a little evidence that indicates it has a chance of being successful. I say this with peace and love!
I suspect it’s less Ray wanting to do a first look, and more not being able to put up with the volume of reader requests on a product people know is being made right on his doorstep, especially when there is a Kickstarter deadline involved. Easier to throw up one post than answer hundreds of emails!
+1, it may come back to bite him, but I’m glad he gave us the heads up.
Perhaps there’s some confusion, though honestly I can’t think how someone who read through this post would arrive at the conclusion that they’ll hit their timelines. I explicitly say that, including the following:
“Compounding things – the company isn’t releasing any data at this point. You heard that correct, no power data at all. Instead, they prefer to do that with production models down the road.”
“My money would say that IQ2 will succeed in a power meter, that they’ll probably deliver next spring (2019).”
“But, like Elon Musk, I suspect he’s underestimating the difficulties in this product and the timelines involved. There’s a long trail of companies that have tried and failed to develop power meters.”
“When it comes to the underlying technology in their unit – it all sounds great from a hardware standpoint, but none of it will matter without corresponding software to account for all of the environmental and human variables that have caused so many others to stumble.”
Note, these are roughly my definitions for post categories:
First Look: Brief hands-on time in a non-active/ride setting. This includes trade shows and the like where I can’t do my own thing and take it for a workout/etc.
Hands-on: Where I can go and do my own thing, but the product isn’t ready for review yet (meaning, beta/etc…)
In-Depth Review: Final product hardware/software, me doing my own thing.
It’s not a perfect definition thing, but by and large it’s worked fairly well. I was super clear in both the post and the video that a ride didn’t happen and that I was disappointed about that.
Ultimately, I’m trying to be fair and present both sides of any product I touch. As I noted earlier in this comment, I think my piece is super clear on the pitfalls here. In fact, all but the first paragraph of my entire summary section is basically saying be incredibly careful.
I think you were abundantly clear. Folks, take notes from Ray’s sentences: No power data, they might succeed a year after they say they will, they don’t entirely understand what they are doing, and they don’t have the software and this will cause them to fail like many others. Pretty clear to me.
So, I went ahead and backed this. Not only is the price where I think power meters need to be, the described production process seems to eliminate a lot of the variances that need to be compensated for in other systems. The Kickstarter campaign says:
“Our thin film strain gauge is of an entirely different caliber. Instead of being hand-glued, it requires no human interaction because it is directly deposited on the surface of the part, molecularly bonded and trimmed by laser. All our strain gauges are exactly the same when they come out the production process. It’s a revolutionary technology used in situations with zero error tolerance, such as in medical, military and harsh environments.”
Ray (or anyone else), have you heard of this before? Or know if it has been used on power meters before. Seems to make sense, if it is real. (If not – I’d like to know, before the campaign completes)
It’s true in comparison to something like a Stages/4iii/etc that are glued onto a crank arm, but that’s different from how someone like Vector or the PowerTap P1 – which are fully automated.
Said differently: It doesn’t really matter in the real world. And since they haven’t shown any outside data, we don’t really know where they stand there.
I am excited to see how this product pans out. I have been hoping to get a power meter for awhile now but the prices have been to high. I also backed it but will wait to see how the accuracy is and cancel if it is turning into another Limits and of course getting the approval of my wife which may be a challenge :)
Hey Ray, as always thanks for the in depth review! I currently have Garmin Vector 2 left pedal, would I be able to buy a right legal by IQ2 and see dial power meter results on my Garmin/in Garmin connect? I have a Fenix 5x.
Jason,
I think it’s pretty common knowledge that you cannot connect two power meters, two cadence monitors, two heart rate monitors, etc. to one head unit at the same time. I know your not the first to ask this or something similar but I’m a little dumbfounded by these questions as both units would have their own separate bluetooth and/or ant+ ids/streams. Kindalike, you can’t listen to two radio broadcasts from the same radio at the same time. Just one channel at a time. If I understand it correctly, dual power meters talk to each other and transmit only one stream to the head unit. And, they have to be programmed to talk to each other, i.e. same manufacturer.
Fwiw – there is actually a Connect IQ app that can plot both on Garmin Connect:
link to apps.garmin.com
I’ve been using/testing it a bit lately, but it has some minor bugs/limitations that doesn’t allow it to connect to six-digit ANT+ ID’s, so I can’t connect to my Vector 3 unit (which happens to be six digits, other folks may be 5 or less digits).
Note that as OKRunner said however, it doesn’t ‘merge’ the data into one stream, instead, just plots two piles of it. Unfortunately, there is no standard for dual-sided units to talk between two halfs.
Thanks Ray! I learn something new everyday here. However, sadly, I don’t own one of the compatible devices.
Appreciate the response okrunner, but could have done it without the condescending tone. It’s clearly not common knowledge to everyone, or people wouldn’t keep asking it. Sorry I can’t keep up with every comment on the site.
Sorry if I cam across condescending. I know everyone here is to obtain knowledge surrounding fun/sports. Please don’t take me too seriously. Sorry again.
I backed the dual package. I already use the PowerPod, but would like something to verify it. Im pretty patient so I would not mind waiting until 2019 or whenever. Also, I didnt have the pleasure of experiencing the Limits fiasco.
The project got backed. Lets see how they communicate R & D in the next 30days. They have a video on their kickstarter showing a unit mounted to a mountain bike and a road bike. They show it paring to an app and riding with it showing power data. So the prototype must be further than we know so far…Ray did they give you any info? The video is from April 8th…
Good call not to release the video on April the first :-)
Yeah, that’s a little concerning. Ray’s ride was on the 11th, and he couldn’t use it yet, but they are showing videos of it working on the 8th. Something is wrong with this picture. Even if that is a prototype of how it is supposed to work, when it is actually done, they do not make that clear. It appears they are actually using a prototype to receive power data on their software. If that is not the case, they may be posting intententionally misleading videos. That has got to be against the KS rules.
It was slated to go live on Kickstarter last Tuesday, but got held up in a queue by Kickstarter, hence was pushed to this Tuesday.
That initially put my visit to them only a few days prior.
As noted in my post numerous places, I definitely have concerns about lack of access to data – both on the miniaturized variant as well as the lab variants.
Yes, my concern is certainly not with your post. My concern is that in the gallery, along with other photos, they have a video showing Keesjan installing what is referred to as a Design Prototype on to a Mountain Bike, configuring it with an IQ2 app on an iPhone, connecting it to the Strava iPhone app and then producing power data as the bike is ridden down the street. Unless that video is a fake, why couldn’t he have shown that to you (with whatever qualifiers necessary). The video suggests they have a functioning design prototype, producing data.
Yeah, I don’t know why there.
Agreed. If they had tested it outside the lab then it would be worth taking the risk. As it stands, i think this is a product that will be better when it reaches a second iteration. Good luck to them though – I hope they manage to do something different as well as bringing prices down.
From your review it seems like:
1) They did not show you a working device that uses the small circuitboard and case (if it worked, wouldn’t they be testing with that?)
2) The device with all the wires on it you did not get to ride or otherwise validate that it works–something that Kickstarter guidelines require
3) You did not see data supporting their claims of accuracy and battery life
4) Their founder reminds you of Elon :-)
Based on what you saw, what persuades you this is different from vaporware?
Kickstarter doesn’t require I validate it, but rather, the company has validated it. They show some of that in their video – whether or not it’s real I can’t say.
I’d say it’s different from vaporware in that they’ve got a miniaturized design complete, which may have flaws, but that’s up to them to sort out. Keith’s very first comment in this post illustrates that they have all the core components to make something in the realm of a power meter. And their prototypes they’ve shown in the lab are collecting power data (again, we don’t have that though).
Just like one could argue that since the final-looking design of AeroPod is just an empty shell, it’s not terribly different than this from a pure Kickstarter standpoint (since AeroPod didn’t share data on Kickstarter either).
Of course, I’ve held and used a non-final variant of AeroPod and it’s producing something believable, so that’s a key difference.
But I think the last two sections of this post make my thoughts pretty clear.
Ray, thanks for your response, and most certainly your job doesn’t include Kickstarter compliance! (though you acting in that role would increase any project’s credibility by at least ten times) :-)
I’m guessing that every company that has ever tried to make a power meter has correctly figured out the required core components, and also has built proof-of-concept prototypes.
But that last 1%…many years ago I remember attending an Interbike where a very credible company, with really smart people, was demonstrating its new PM; on a test stand was their prototype, generating very believable power numbers. About 3 years later, they finally got it to market.
Power meters are hard.
I’ll rather say this is a pure engineering company without or missing software knowledge. When looking at the current number of backers, I believe they can invest soon into software development engineers to create a working product.
I’m backing it. Their Kickstarter now lists accuracy of 1% with a range of up to 2600W.
Got to be worth a punt if you ask me.
They cant put this on the kick starters website unless its true right? or is this a “goal”?
Like any Kickstarter project, there’s a sometimes fuzzy line between goal and current. Really no different than most non-Kickstarter projects too for that matter. Be it Garmin, Wahoo, or Apple – all tend to be ‘hopeful’ in their longer range projections for products that aren’t immediately available.
Over $300000 in 12h. Double their goal. I have a feel that they have a functional prototype but kept things more closed up. Production facilities are secured in UK and Netherland. With a big backing like this I wonder what the next week will bring from them. Lots of pressure until May 24th.
602,505$ and 27 days to go. let me tell you something: looking at Kickstarter I was 150% confident and convinced they have working prototype and all is missing are $ to start mass production to make it less expensive.
Ray did awesome job in explaining he didn’t have a chance to ride with their product or even look at the data produced by their product.
It is hard to say they if they are that dumb not to let Ray ride with their product because they simply “forgot” or they know there is serious problem to be solved and they do not have it at all.
I’m sure if they would let Ray ride what they have and there would be small accuracy issue, he would say: good product needs some algorithm tweaking but prototype looks good and produces data. Same as in the case of AeroPod which I backed up just because of his video and actual ride with the product.
he said I have no clue about accuracy, but here is how it works now.
mass production has started for the titanium adapter with the strain gauge based on kickstarter and a link to their production partner. link to smdsensors.com
For the $50 bucks difference between backing and final product, why not just wait..
For dual sided, it’s more like $200.
Could you make a review comparisson with another Power Meters in the market, so you can test the accuracy of this product?
I’m more than happy to once I have a unit I can do so with. It doesn’t sound like that’s going to happen for some time (either by their timelines, or my timelines – what I consider to be realistic timelines).
Hey man! Thanks for your obective review, I haven’t read it all at the begining, but its very realistic. So lets better wait and see what they get at the end, so we know if it’s worth it.
Life is short; get a 4iiii and go riding now.
As a slight side question… are there any pedal-based power meters that work with SPD-patterened cleats? This meter looks like a perfect compromise for me. I’m a Crank Brothers user for MTB and CX and ride almost no road (except on a CX bike with slicks). Does anybody make a pedal-based meter that can work with something other than Look-Keo cleats? I’m never going to use road shoes for any purpose so Look-Keo isn’t an option. Maybe it’s going to have to be a spindle-based meter (I am a sucker for Race Face/Easton equipment)…
A lot of food for thought here:
The Kick Starter is currently near 5x Goal with 28 days to run – Demand is validated and financing is assured.
Q factor – I’m dimly aware of it’s existence but it’s not in my consciousness when swapping between bikes.
A bit of Googling suggests that you can buy ‘knee saver’/pedal extenders that increase q factor. So you can validate whether this would make a difference to you while waiting for the product delivery or before dropping coin on it.
I’m a bit risk averse and the target retail price still seems quite sensible. I’ll wait and see how this pans out into a delivered and tried product. When I first see people out riding with them I’ll try to catch up, ask how they are working out, and congratulate them on getting in early on a good deal.
Apologies if this is a stupid question, but if purchasing a single sided power meter, which side is best to choose (given you have the choice?). Left side as its the non chain-ring side?
Also, given the impact to Q-Factor, would singe sided here be a bad option, as it would make you slightly lop-sided?
On the lop-sided question, I believe that IQ said they’ll be providing a ‘spacer’ for the other side to balance it. They also said they might sell after market spaces so in theory you could split a L&R pack into two single-sided packs (if you bought two spacers)
great job on sharing the tech!
As I see, you have many doubts concerning the success (in time) of the project.
but what I have learned in my business life now for many years: never underestimate the Dutch
Your post somehow reminded me of this video:
link to youtube.com
Would never happen in my country where just a simple road repair takes weeks if not months.
So yeah, them being Dutch makes me also think they could actually pull this off. The schedule seems pretty tight so I guess we’ll know soon enough…
It’s silly that they invited you and then didn’t even share with you their power data or even let you ride and record the power data from the device, even if the power data has issues we all know this is a pre-production model that was tested and it’s more then likely that the final production version will iron out the issues.
If they have done that, I would’ve backed and I’m pretty sure many others as well.
There’s a slight issue there in that if you want to swap between bikes you need to helicoil each bike. This means that if you are someone who travels with pedals and kit and rents bikes, you’ll need the tools to remove it ASSUMING they’re using free running helicoils and they’re that easy to remove.
No need for that. The entire installation process is as fast as you see in the video (I think I only cut a few seconds out of it while I refocused camera). Simply bring the tiny little tool (about the size of a grape), and you’re good.
So you’re saying that yes, you do need to helicoil rentals or indeed all your bikes you intend to use it on. Not saying it’s a big deal but they do say that they will sell extra helicoil sets precisely for this reason (I asked the question).
Yeah, certainly if you buy extras it’ll save you a tiny bit of time. But as seen in the video we’re only talking a few seconds.
Hi Ray,
Thanks for this report. For me it’s a wait and see thing…
In this category, did you hear about that link to magnes.ch ?
Cheers !
J.
Yup, I actually met with them last fall in fact for a meeting*. They showed me how their tech worked, which was certainly interesting. And they did send me two brief snippets of comparative data later on (they weren’t awesome, but they weren’t horrible either – showed signs of needing some smoothing and such).
To be honest, I can’t quite remember why I didn’t end up writing about them, but I can’t find the Indiegogo campaign at this point that they had launched (looks like it got pulled?). They may have pulled the campaign before I got a chance to write about it. Not sure.
What I do remember from the convo (without digging up notes) is that I thought they were on the right track, but too early to launch from a schedule standpoint. Their industrial design wasn’t quite to the same point as IQ2, though, at least they could share some data.
*https://twitter.com/magnesCH/status/905779036928045056
That 16mm+ to the Q-Factor may not be favorable for crit racing, depends on BB drop and crank length.
Thinking about single sided power meters in general and the fact that there maybe 5% – 20% difference between legs. Which side should you put a single sided meter on, the leading or weaker?
I’d argue spend 50EUR more and get dual-sided…it’s worth it.
Generally though, most people are in the order of 2-6% variance per side, 20% is almost unheard of (except injury recovery). And most people tend to vary how much a given leg is dominant as well through varying conditions.
You need to wave your arm more on the next video.
Great idea for us!!!!
Watching the Kickstarter for this project is amazing.
It is like a house fire that you just can’t stop watching.
That said, I see what Slipstream Sports did wrong in their crowd funding last year.
They didn’t include a vaporware power meter as one of the rewards.
I sure hope this turns out well for the huge number of people who are buying into it.
Just my $.02.
Nice to see that they’ve completed their kickstarter campaign, started an Indiegogo campaign, and still haven’t shown any data.
I also loved their claims that they couldn’t make a functional prototype because it was too expensive to make a one off, so they’re going to do the first full run and hope they can fix everything in post.
I am very interested in this. My reason is having spent over $2000 for Garmin 2S about 4 years ago – they cost me new pods because the originals broke easily (cast alloy) and ow I find that my Durace compact crank (50:34) and 180 on my Specialised S works, the right side pod connection on the inside of the crank will not clear the chain when in the 50:11 gear. I have sheared off two connectors beofre I relaised it does not fit.
So while there might not be many people using 180 cranks with Garmin 2S on a Tarmac, it fundamentally is $2000 wasted. So I will not be buying Garmin again – irrespective of the ‘new’ pedals. This solution allows me to at least continue using the pedals but without the power from them. So bring it on in fact I would like to trial them – one or two sided – even thought the Q factor is increased.
Fwiw – most of the time Garmin support (specifically, Vector support) is pretty happy to help folks out and swap out parts, even in cases of self-inflicted wounds. I’d really consider giving them a call/e-mail/something.
Very good review (as always), DCRainmaker. Thanks a lot. -{db}.
Do you think this will be compatible with Zwift?
“the unit will broadcast dual ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart, like virtually every other power meter on the market today”.
These are the protocols supported by Zwift and almost every telemetry application.
Thanks Jorge. Makes sense although not all ant+ or BLE sensors are the same to zwift (I.e. Jetblack Whisperdrive)
Hi,
The KickStarter campaign ended with 3,536 backers and €932,732 pledged!!
They have started also an Indiegogo campaign.
I think that part of their success is also yours Ray ;-)
Is possible to ask your opinion Ray?
Out of curiosity have you ever spoke with them?
Received a kickstarter email update. There was no data in the email, just production updates.
Everything is “on schedule”.
Plastic molds have come together.
They are selecting electronics based on availability.
They have created and submitted the molds for low pressure molding technique.
Their production lines in the UK are on schedule.
Hi,
Any updates on this, Ray? Price is not €149 /199 anymore, it’s €159/259 now for single/double. I see they are testing now, have you been in contact with them for a test unit?
Indiegogo campaign: link to indiegogo.com
Regards,
Audun
Nothing new here. As others noted on their Kickstarter page they said they just started testing/comparative testing outdoors.
Thus, I think given that I suspect my earlier concerns about next year sometime seem pretty accurate. Most power meter companies will spend about 1-2 years in that phase.
Seems they are finally starting the tests…
If a road bike is typically 150mm and a mountain bike 170mm, that’s a difference of 2 cm switching between bikes assuming your SPD cleats are in same position relative to the crank arms.
Adding 16mm (5/8″) to both sides means a change of 32mm (1-1/4″) overall.
What production bikes have a Q factor of 200mm plus? 170 + 32 = 202
If you only purchase a unit for one crank, how comfortable will most riders be with one foot 16mm (5/8″) off center from the other?
I like the idea of a low-cost power meter that works with any bike but I’d feel a lot better about an OEM pedal solution even if it costs more.
I believe they come with a spacer for the non-drive side if you purchase the single sided option.
Thanks for the info.
Hey DC Rainmaker,
they just released test data today using your comparison tool. Are you reviewing the power meter again?
Or could you give us an update and let us know what you think about the provided data samples?
Best,
ab
I haven’t heard a single peep or e-mail from them since I posted this post back in April.
Cool they’re using the tool though!
I wouldn’t post a new post about their unit until I’ve got hands-on with something I could ride, even if beta.
Alright, I understand.
But could you just take a look at the data samples they published and give us an opinion/interpretation?
I saw that, via an Instagram spam post. I know the tool is open to anyone. You know the tool is open to anyone. But to me it feels like they’re trying to imply some kind of endorsement. Until there’s some independent data, I’d not trust anything.
From iQ2’s Indiegogo campaign: “Keep in mind that we’ve only been willing to share test data that comes directly from a ‘real’ power meter, meaning one that comes from our production line. So, what you are looking at here is exactly what you’ll receive at home.”
Not a prototype then, but an actual production unit. Wow. Anyone else a little uneasy that Ray doesn’t have the unit to say nothing of the lack of correspondence with him? My money stays in my pocket until he receives the meter.
Its been a week since your post above, Ray, still nothing? Would you be able to tell us when/if you receive the unit or does that go beyond your usual protocol? I’d understand if it does.
I’ll second that!
Yeah, I’d love to see an update based on there sample data.
I really soured on these guys when they sent out an email to their Kickstarter supporters saying, “Oopsies, Shimano is suing us for modifying thier pedals and reselling them.” It just shows a lack of business acumen and common sense. In the end, it looks like they lost my order for the pedals, so no harm done there. But when I called BS and said I wanted my money back (which, to their credit, they volunteered to do before I asked), they asked for my bank routing and account info via email. Again, super bush league. As Ray suggested, I am going to assume my investment is gone and will be pleasantly surprised if I receive a pair of halfway decent power meters, albeit with a fat Q factor, sometime next Spring.
I bought a unit from Tempo. Works great. It’s not a prototype, but a shipping production unit.
Jim, please post link to where you bought it. Thanks.
I guess Seth’s talking about short spindles not the PM.
Jorge, I was actually talking about the PM which now won’t be shipping till the end of November, so I was curious as to how Jim bought one.
They have now released data using you comparison tool…. Would love to know your thoughts…..
link to kickstarter.com
That’s data released by a manufacturer. How do you know, for example, that the data is actually from their power meter? How do you know that they didn’t look through hundreds of trials to find the absolute best one, or portion of one, to display? I’m not saying they did that in this case, but I always trust independent third party tests much more than closed tests released by a manufacturer. When Ray and others get a hold of a production unit for testing, then we’ll see how well it actually works. I hope it works well, but the past has shown that power meters are hard to do.
At least looks like the production is started (see link with pics bellow). May be iQ2 guys will not match the 29th November but I guess if not surprise with some cage component, they should be OK for shipping in December 2018.
link to indiegogo.com
What concerns me is that they avoid all questions related to data captured by the sensors. And still only state that they will only publish data from a production unit. Apparently at this stage they still don’t have one!
Instead they are only show pictures of the machinery they will be using to build the sensor, with bold claims.
At the same time some things don’t make sense, like advancing a date for delivery for the second time. Getting excuses about missing the September date due to a third party not being able to deliver a titanium part.
But then in October 10, they proudly present the “custom injection molds machine” (they recently received) and will be used produce the sensors casing. October10?? What about the september date? They didn’t had the molds machine by that time.
The project is delayed badly….
I guess this is starting to follow the route of Limits and Brim Brothers product fails.
But then this was a known risk. And I accepted it.
What I don’t accept is their silence and constantly hiding the problems they are facing.
For sure they were optimistic … but it is often the case on kickstarer.
My concern is about the consistency of the precision, and they give clues …
To use the product, they say we need to give the length of pedals (Q factor), witch means the measure is dependent of were we push.
Were we apply force is dependent of the length of the pedals, but also dependant : of the shoes, of the position of the cleats on the shoe, of the way of pedalling (standing..), …
Ray,
Has there still been no contact with you – no offer of a beta product?
Have you contacted them for an update in the last weeks, and have they engaged with you?
Thanks in advance, Dave.
I haven’t talked to them or heard from them since I posted this post back in April.
I’m a sponsor of the IQ2 project… I’m assuming I will either never receive a product (unlikely) or receive one that’s basically non-functional and unsupported once they go out of business (likely).
I don’t really have sour grapes with IQ2 — Kickstarter projects are crap shoot and I knew that going in. But the debacle with pre-ordering modified Shimano pedals was very, very close to inexcusable. You can’t modify and sell another company’s products without consulting them, and this is what put IQ2 on my sh*tlist. This is real basic stuff that any businessperson understands.
That said…
Ray: First (shameless sucking up) – You are a huge asset to the cycling community and although I realize maintaining and running dcrainmaker is no longer just a hobby, it’s still commendable. Second, would you be willing to reach out to IQ2, just one more time, with perhaps some sort of ultimatum-ish verbiage? As another poster said, you probably put real cash in their pockets by mentioning the Kickstarter campaign in the first place and they really should be kissing your ass to review test and review their product.
Thanks!
-Steve
Nicely said Steve.
Your last sentence says it all and begs the obvious question: For all Ray has done for IQ2 why should he be reaching out to them not the other way? I understand why, as a backer, you’re seeking his leverage to peel the onion and expose reality, I just don’t know if it’s a smart or worthwhile move for him. He’s set the table, they need to deliver the vittles.
I view crowd-funding projects like venture capital. More important than the concept/idea/product is the quality, experience and previous success of management. I can find nothing that this CEO has done to convince me to throw money his way. I put out a request here for anyone to tell me otherwise. Silence
Hope I’m wrong.
Hi Ray
The product is on sale in : link to indiegogo.com,
One update from your side when you have the time, will be very appreciated for every body
Delivery for normal people in november.
Jorge, I’m guessing you didn’t see Ray’s update from 2 days ago which is just above yours?
Have you ever backed a crowdfunded project? Delivery very rarely occurs when it’s “estimated”. I’m still waiting for something I backed at Kickstarter much simpler than a power meter that was “estimated” for October 2017. Highly unlikely anyone “normal” will be getting one next month.
Hi Seth,
I saw the comments of Ray, but as I already saw productions units in the video and as Ray is not a Normal person ( Guru instead) , I sent the link to him in case he can ask them, What is going on? and then tell us.
Jorge, my reading of Ray’s posts is that he’s waiting for IQ2 to reach out to him. In other words, “Send me a working unit when it’s ready.” My opinion is that Ray, with this First Look, has done considerable legwork exposing IQ2 to a much larger audience — myself included. He owes the company nothing, but it, on the other hand, should be eager to send him a unit pronto, IF (in 20 pt type) it is ready for prime time.
I’m not yet a backer, FWIW, but I’d like to be. I’m still skeptical in part because there’s been no contact with Ray. I’m also leery since my research on Keesjan Klant has come up empty on the successful start-up front. By that I’m wondering if has he turned his inventions into enough currency to bet on him again. Mega Windforce is one of his companies but I don’t think it’s been monetized. Open to being pointed in the right direction.
My views
They start asking “bakers” their delivery address.
I see it two ways:
– The sensor is about to be shipped by the end of next week.
– It’s another mkt maneuver to calm down “investors”. Somewhere mid next week they will come up with another excuse / issue and delivery will be postponed another month.
Lets wait and see ….
I am not sure why they would need my address. I thought they already had the information via kickstarter
I don’t think KickStarter stores address records.
At least they are not on the account profile views.
It is common for a Kickstarter/Indiegogo project to confirm delivery address before they begin shipping. It might even be a required step.
My last Indiegogo gamble ended up 3 years late and in that time I had moved so I am glad they asked.
Data Collection & Production Practicalities
Posted by Astrid (Collaborator)
Hi everyone,
We promised you an extensive data update last week, but we’ll need an extra week.
Collecting Data
Co-founder Woud Vleugel, both triathlete and electrical engineer, has been going out on almost a daily basis cycling with multiple finished-product power meters and a backpack filled with electronics. Simultaneously, another independent party has been performing some final calibration tests in lab conditions, such as calibrating applied force and nullifying temperature, humidity & torque effects on the threads. We can’t wait to share the outcomes, but are still working on the report.
We’re still extremely excited about the test results! Below is a new picture of the data of a short bike ride, comparable to an earlier update. This time, as many of you requested it, we added a link ( link to analyze.dcrainmaker.com ) to the DC Rainmaker analyzing tool, where you can find and access this graph in high resolution and more detail.
Tying Production Together
Now, as all production, testing and practical usage processes are starting to come together… we do have another important topic to discuss: we’re going to need a little bit more time to deliver the first power meters. We’d like to share with you the main reason below and hope you understand, as your support is a huge motivating factor for us.
As you know, iQsquare is creating a one of a kind, mass-produced product. It’s one of the most rewarding and challenging journeys our team has ever been on! We work together with almost 20 manufacturers and our timeline was pretty tight from the beginning. Our collective dream had to start somewhere, right? :) As we are getting really close to our final product and the delivery date, a few of our production partners have been encountering some practical obstacles in the manufacturing process.
One example of this is the placement of a component of the printed circuit board. It’s been recommended that we move it to another location on the board as to have a better fit with the low-pressure molding technique. In short, moving the component provides the best way to guarantee a dust free and waterproof power meter. Obviously, that’s a quality we’re looking for.
First Half of January
So, yes. The good news is that we have a power meter that is showing accurate results; we’ll update you on that in more detail next week. The bad news is that tying together all separate processes isn’t only exact science, but sometimes a bit of an art. We’re putting in the work and are excited about seeing it all come together, but we have to admit it’s a bit of a tough pill to swallow when you’re this close to delivery.
Anyway, we expect the delay to be about three weeks. Taking Christmas and New Year holidays into account, with factories closed, we estimate to have the power meters ready during the first half of January.
It’s not fun to accept that sometimes these setbacks come with startup territory, no matter how hard we want to cross that finish line! Send us your comments, concerns, support…. anything you like. We love hearing from you and it keeps us involved in your thought process as well, which is very important to us.
Kind regards,
Team iQsquare
I don’t suppose you could send Ray a set of meters to test with the components in the “old” location? At least to give us something to look forward to? I’m very interested in this meter since I don’t really road ride (CX and MTB only) and don’t have silly road cleats/pedals/shoes to work with. Since I’m a Crank Brothers user and also can’t justify a US$600+ expense for a crank-based power meter, the iQ^2 looks like a great option but I think most of us would at least like /some/ third-party verification that this is going to work. Even if Ray can’t publish full power numbers yet, at least something that he could test and report on, saying “Yes, these are real and while there is still a little polish to be applied for the final shipping units, you can be assured that this group is on the right track.”
I think doing something like this would go a loooooong way to giving all of us greater confidence in your product.
And good luck with the continued development!
nick
I guess sometime maybe around next year’s Eurobike you’ll have something production ready to show and sell. Until then we will get escuses over and over again…
I just wanted to point out that the communication above from IQ2 is a copy of a recent email communication from IQ2 sent to “investors” by DCRainmaker member, Markus K. If we want to encourage IQ2 to reach out to Ray, we should be contacting IQ2 directly.
I posted a while back asking Ray to reach out one, final time to IQ2 and have since changed my tune. It’s not Ray’s responsibility to be reaching out to manufacturers. In fact, they should be begging him to review their products, given the influence he has in the cycling community.
What’s the rush? IQ2 will need to take what ever time it takes to get their product to market.
Then they will use the backers as beta testers and possibly adjust some Firmware before they are ready for normal distribution. There are many examples of this first phase ending up in a revised product which performs as expected and a lot of backers being a bit disappointed. At this time when they have a real product available to the market it will for the first time be interesting for them to get tech reviewers to look at the product. Recent events elsewhere have shown that a lot of so called tech review experts on high volume sites are mostly interested in their own revenue and don’t care much about accuracy – its nearly only about being first with the review and to be controversial and generate clicks and hits.
Per my experience and opinion Ray is the only reviewer I know about with a real honest approach, maybe the lama guy is equally honest as well, but that’s it. The rest of them is not really useful for a crowd funded company unless you have a near perfect finished product available. Its no upside to balance the risk of being slaughtered with an alpha or beta product. If you look at RAY and LAMA previews on IQ2 so far its not really contributing that much to IQ2’s interests. They are, maybe correctly, quite low on their expectations that this will succed as a PM product. Hence maybe IQ2 see litle benefit in providing more info until they feel assured they can deliver something which will get a good review conclusion.
They will deliver a product to backers first which are in on the fact that they take risk on this and know they might not be totally satisfied. We are OK with that (I’m a backer), anyone which is not should wait it out. Its not like this is a new product type – there are plenty of PM’s out there. This is just a bit less expensive and the reason for that is that you are willing to wait and take risk. Expect the IQ2 deals to go up in price when normal retail starts. No risk – no opportunity apply here as well.
Also we shouldn’t forget that Ray is living of clicks and ads, he has a real interest in presenting info about IQ2 to generate clicks but without selling out to the industry or to the consumers – he needs to be balanced. The day he loses track of that or appear to not cater for his readers he will loose out. I am not saying this happens here, but expecting the world to come to him sounds a bit like the first step towards that.
If I get the IQ2 product in January I will be surprised, and I expect the firmware will need to be updated at least once before it will be useful in real life. But I have some expectations that I will use the PM during the spring and summer and that’s OK for me.
The last update on IQ2 was more than disappointing. Lets not forget, the product has been in development for more than 2 years and there still is no verifiable power data. I would implore DC at this time to take a more active stance. Indeed he is better placed geographically than anyone else being a mere 50km from IQ2 and within cycling distance a route he has already covered to meet with Keesjan. The issue as I see it is that although DC didn’t endorse the product, what he did do was to endorse the individual behind the campaign Keesjan Klant in his own words “He’s part Elon Musk and part Dr. Emmett Brown from Back To the Future. I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off”. This is an incredibly powerful statement. The success of the campaign is ultimately down to this. I have tried to find evidence of the eminence of Keesjan, however draw a blank. I hope that DC will follow up and alley peoples concerns, even to visit and to see the current progress. Perhaps as backers we should be asking IQ2 to invite DC to visit again they did at the start and that was 6 months ago so I don’t see why not?
Pedro, I asked some time ago here if anyone can find evidence of Klant’s previous successes because I come up empty in my pursuits, just as you have. Nothing back.
Ray’s statement comparing him to Elon Musk leapt off the page when I first read it. It indeed was powerful. The more I come up empty on Klant the more I’m curious about the basis of that pronouncement.
That said, I still don’t think it’s Ray’s obligation to pre-emptively visit or contact the company. It’s up to them to provide a working prototype or market-ready device. It hasn’t.
I’m not a backer and Klant may still succeed. From my remove, however, I’m not comfortable with the way things are proceeding with IQ2. LIMITS redux? Hope not.
I’m certainly up for chatting with them once they have a product that they’re ready to ship. Or, if they want to send over units now and allow me to talk about them (good or bad). Not a review, but a ‘state of where things stand’.
Else, at this juncture it’d just be them trying to leverage me for marketing benefit.
I will say I guess I’m confused as using some of my selective quotes as to why one backed the project. Literally the very next sentences explain why I don’t think the timelines are accurate. I guess I can’t force people to read the article, but man, folks can’t blame me when one doesn’t.
Agree, it’s definitely not on you at all. In all honesty, I would have backed the project until I read your article and skepticism on the delivery timelines. So for me, I am very grateful for your full article, as it stopped me from losing my money.
Just as a (very) minor update. I did e-mail last week basically offering to either provide private feedback/testing, or public thoughts (in other words, same as I do for any other company).
I did notice in a tweet the week prior this to someone else: link to twitter.com
“Sam, when the first power meters are out, we’re going to send a review unit to DC Rainmaker, Global Cycling Network, GP Lama and other respected influencers. We’re looking forward to their opinion/blessing.”
Hi DCR,
I noticed a analyzer page with IQ2/Stages/Powertab comparison. Was this with a provided test unit? I cant find any commentary to support?
No, that’s just them using the DCR Analyzer like any other person (link to dcrainmaker.com). I don’t have a unit/set nor have I looked at their data (aside from what they’ve posted on their Kickstarter updates).
Cheers!
Seth good to see we are reading off the same page, albeit our belief that DC has more or less skin in this. Anyway I wont spend anymore time on this as for me it is now a lost cause, I only wish I hadn’t invested, anyway c’est la vie.This is a marketing machine that sweeps us up along with our cash. I really am surprised DC was caught up in this and hope that he can unravel from this as the end will be messy.
So 2 years working with a titanium spacer only to state that it is too expensive! Why would they reduce the product cost EUR150 for a dual, the Ti spacers don’t cost this. I can buy 2 Ti pedal spindles for US$29 retail weighing 70 gram, so total of 140 gram so what price would that make the spacer US$5?
They are now desperate, why would they make the announcement of the change and cost reduction, they want to drive more sales to their site as they are seeing a slow down on Indiegogo.
I am gravely concerned that they will prioritise their paying customers as they will have consumer rights that Crowd funding backers don’t have. So don’t expect to see your product anytime soon, if ever. By the week it just gets worse and worse. Does anyone have any updates on Keesjan aka Elon Musk he has gone quiet?
Isn’t the strain gauge mounted on the titanium spacer?
I think they should have gone with stainless steel to begin with especially if that accelerates production.
If IQ2’s strain gauge tech turns out to be valid and easier to mass produce they’re best off licensing it to manufacturers for integration into pedal spindles.
The only loose end to spindle design is how to charge the battery or replace it. The tech needs to be good enough to last for years with a rechargeable battery or button batteries are easily replaced by removing an end cap. Perhaps self-charging could be built into the design. As long as you pedal the battery stays charged. Watts to volts as needed. ;-)
BTW I waited 3+ years for my last Indiegogo project to be delivered and it was a lot less complicated than new power meter tech.
Another surprisingly update. Now an online shop for something that don’t exists yet but will be delivered by the end of January. Another version of their “smoke” product using steel axles instead of titanium which has different density and will affect tuning and calibration. At this point for they are sending a message….
– They need more money.
– They are preparing ground to come up with another lousy excuse to delay everything. This time something around the lines. yeah now we have to deal with 2 different axles and will be a plus for you but we will need another couple of months to get it perfectly with the 2 versions of the product.
So as Ray told us from the beginning will be lucky if everything ships by April 2019. Another guy in the comments at kickstarter mentioned eurobike / September 2019.
What about April 2020?
Sweet dreams….
Merry Christmas to all
Cali, of graver concern is that on looking at this and doing some basic calcs, it would appear Ti isn’t strong enough. That is great as everyone will be getting a St Steel model so will be due a big rebate from IQ2. There is no other reason that they are changing, it is nothing to do with price of the Ti it is everything to do with the fact that the Ti material isnt strong enough. So conclusion is that with St Steel spacer everyone will be given the new low price, I also dont care for 15g saving I prefer to sweat some more, can lose this in sweat in 5 minutes, so good result I will be getting a rebate of EUR150.
Agreed. If the metallic components are the same dimensions a titanium version cannot be as strong as stainless steel. Perhaps they found this out the hard way. ;-)
In DCR’s video it appears the pedal/pod assembly simply slides into the adapter. The only thing holding everything together is a hex bolt. It doesn’t seem logical to do that without bolt and crank adapter tightened to specific torque values. The fit between adapter and pod assembly also needs to be extremely tight. More like a press fit. Perhaps the hex bolt draws the assembly into the adapter and torque doesn’t matter since the device is calibrated after each installation.
Guess we’ll find out soon.
3 weeks with no update and with shipping due to commence mid January 2019.
Cali on further reviewing the profile of the individuals involved nothing more on Keesjan but something very interesting on the Brand Director. Astrid Peters is in fact the Director of a Company Whites Oak Media:- White Oaks Media specialize in developing CEO branding.
A special bond CEO Branding means exactly what it says: turning the CEO of a corporation into a best-selling brand. In talking to some 75 leaders from diverse industries as a media freelancer, I personally discovered that CEOs are often so smart, enigmatic, kind and fun that I’d much rather follow them as people than only hear about their company through a carefully cultivated corporate marketing strategy. Obviously, branding the CEO is marketing too. But it’s the kind that lets you connect to a respectable person first, and his or her products and services second.
It would be interesting to know if DC met with Astrid she is the one who is selling us Keesjan as the next Elon Musk. Hats off to IQ2 for duping everyone with their very clever marketing strategy.
I don’t feel so foolish to being duped now, knowing how they have achieved their success, it is all down to Astrid Peters congratulations Astrid tremendous job.
Woah dude, you’ve overthought this.
I don’t know who this Astrid person is, nor do I care.
And quite frankly, having met Keesjan – he definitely hasn’t been groomed like most other CEO’s. Seriously, he’s an engineer first, and anyone who’s met him would immediately realize he’s not a c-suite type. So, not sure why you get that impression. My comments in relation to Elon were pretty straight forward: A super-smart dude who will ultimately build what he sets his mind on, but likely over-commits on what’s possible in the time frame he’s given himself.
It’s amazed me how many people keep taking that out of context or mis-reading it. It’s in plain English above and super clear. Re-read it if it’s confusing. It’s not some magical conspiracy. It’s just a typical Kickstarter/Indiegogo project. Over committing and delays are the name of the game.
In any case, I did exchange two e-mails with Keesjan in the last few weeks, but am essentially waiting just like everyone else.
I wasn’t expecting a response dude, appreciated as I know that you are very busy. If you exchanged emails, then that would imply that he responded to your email? So he basically wasn’t able to advise when we can expect to see product although I would be more interested to see power data? The campaign is starting to turn and there is growing cynicism amongst backers. I am eagerly awaiting next weeks debacle. My thinking is that they will conclude that they cant get titanium to work and that everyone will need to wait for St Steel and a 3 month delay, I could be wrong I haven’t over thought this it is merely me stating my opinion. Lets wait and see.
If you were a backer who checked their email or the kickstarter you’d see their current expecting ship date is in February
DC it would seem that Astrid does know you, unless she is deluded or you have a bad memory? I stand by my previous statement she has done a tremendous job to bring in the cash for IQ2 and continues to do so? She has also done a tremendous job to bring on board product influencers and to groom Keesjan only time will reveal the truth.
I’ve never met an Astrid, nor a single e-mail from anyone named Astrid (ever). Seriously. In my entire Inbox, nobody named Astrid has ever sent me an e-mail (and I never delete anything).
It’s plausible someone said hi to me at some trade show or something somewhere, but given I’ve never seen IQ2 at any trade shows – that seems unlikely (and given how many people say Hi at trade shows every hour…). Either way, I’m not seeing anything anywhere that says she knows me? Just because she lives in the same country as me? There’s approximately 17 million people in this country. Or is it because she said my name somewhere on the internet? Many hundreds of people say/post my name every day across the internet.
She hasn’t brought on board any influencers. Neither Shane/GPLAMA or I have been ‘brought onboard’, and if you’ve listened to what we’ve said/wrote – you’d see that. GCN was a paid advert. So obviously, IQ2 paid their ~$25K for that segment and that was that. Just like every other brand you see on GCN, all disclosed on GCN mostly properly these days.
Ultimately, I feel like you’re slowly sliding into tin-foil conspiracy land here. IQ2 is just another Kickstarter project that’s late. That’s it. Maybe they’ll succeed, maybe they’ll fail. The path before them is littered with both. That’s what Kickstarter is about – and the risks I outlined in my post.
DC in the immortal words of Shakespeare me thinks “thou dost protest too much” from the tin foil wrapper___have a good weekend, hope the campaign delivers!
Zosim, delivery Feb’19 you are deluded do you seriously expect to receive your product in February 2019 I was quoting what was on the campaign. Everyone seems to forget that IQ2 were to give us power data 6 months ago, they have moved the focus to delivery and not power data claiming power data can only be shown on production models. Give us power data, why not, they only have issue with production delivery but not product so no reason why we cant be shown power data. The reason is they cant show power data, they don’t have. Lets not forget they are now 6 months late and that is into a 2 year development. So after 2.5 years they cant show any power data. What surprises me even more is that no one spends the time to look through previous posts to state the obvious, there are so many inconsistencies that it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Zosim, why not spend the time to review previous posts to do just that instead of criticizing me?
I’m not sure I follow Pedro, re:
“Everyone seems to forget that IQ2 were to give us power data 6 months ago”
They did do this. At least, technically speaking they did release some data (a few times I think).
Was it complete untouched .FIT files? No. Was it the actual links to the DCR Analyzer? No. But, it was data nonetheless.
Don’t get me wrong, I do wish they’d release more data (untouched .FIT files specifically), but, it seems somewhat part for the course for this project, since they didn’t release data from Day 0.
As said elsewhere it’s Kickstarter; getting upset by delays is just pointless. They will either deliver or they won’t. I backed a mudguard which is ( currently) a year late. I’ve had a refund but only because I don’t own a bike with QR any more so I can’t use the guards.
I wasn’t upset at the creator, it’s inevitable that first time makers will be late. The only on-time Kickstarter I’ve had was from Knog (although their shipping was dire).
As an aside. Given they did upload to the analyzer, are you not able to see the source info or does your t&c prohibit this (kudos if so as I guess that’s a blurry boundary between software provider and hardware reviewer)
Wouldn’t matter if he did. They uploaded a binary file in a documented format. It’s easy enough to edit it before uploading to change the source.
I’ve had good luck with the 20+ I’ve backed Kickstarters except for one, which it’s clear now will never deliver a product. Most are on time or near on time (one, MST3K, even got moved to Netflix).
RE: “are you not able to see the source info or does your t&c prohibit this”
Nope, I don’t look at any users/companies/whatevers data in the Analyzer, period. That’s their data. Plus, I’ve got too much of my own data to deal with first.
(Obviously, if someone sends me a link to look at, I’ll help them out.)
RE: Faking .FIT files
It’s true, you could edit the source. I find that’s more challenging than it looks though, especially if there’s other data (cadence/HR/speed/GPS), in order to validate it’s not real. Removing simple 1-sec power spikes is easy work and mostly hard to detect. But doing anything more than a few seconds is pretty tricky when there are other data metrics.
I wasn’t thinking that they edited the entire file. If they were getting desperate, they could simply record a track using an known good power meter, and then change the sensor id to their own (or probably, to “Unknown power meter” since they probably don’t have one yet). I don’t think they did that, but I do think that they might have cherry picked the data to show. As I said earlier, I’ll believe the data once it comes from 3rd party testers in real world conditions.
That’s true, and that’s a heck of a lot easier to do.
But ultimately – totally agree, the only data I’m interested in is 3rd party data sources I trust.
Why are u so angry and negative all the time Pedro. It is Kickstarter and expections are clear when you sign up…
It would be great if you could do a follow up on this. Surely there has been some new developments at IQ2 as their website says they expect to start shipping units by March?
Nothing new unfortunately at this point. We continue to wait for IQ2 to produce testable units.
I placed an order for a SS unit yesterday. I’m glad I didn’t jump last year because the waiting would have been too much to bear. As it is, several requests for a timeframe have gone unanswered and I’m hoping (but not counting) on it to arrive in February. I also anticipated niggles as every start up has. Still, I’m interested in this succeeding and hope to be a part of the first group. Some of that requires a bit of faith
I’m seeing 2pedal and 1pedal sets. What is the difference? Does the 2 pedal set give you more data that 1 pedal doesn’t?
Trying hard to not order one until there’s actual reviews of the units. Noticed on the website they’ve dropped the price from 149 EUR to 129 EUR.
discounting an unreleased produce worries me more than the delays
Still no power data and still the same lame excuse that until they have production units they wont send to reviewers. Good luck with that, this to me seems the biggest Ponzi scheme ever and Keesjan is a very convincing guy who continues to bring in revenue by discounting once again the units to EUR129. That is how to drive sales it pissses me off as an early investor that they are now discounting and offering cheaper product and for presales they will be shipped before the Kickstarter and Indiegogo backers units as legally they will be requited to.
I don’t think you understand what a Ponzi scheme is.
Its February and they should be already shipping units to first backers and neither Ray nor Lama received the unit for test and review. I want to order one too, but this holding me back, its bad sign.
Daniel, its a wise decision, don’t move forward yet.
There are still a lot of days til the end of February. If they ship something on the 28th its still February.
But as usual around the 25 I believe the shipment date will be pushed forward again blaming some 3rd party.
These guys have better marketing skills than engineering or “production” ones, so, if they already had a real working unit working – “The ONE” – that would be mass cloned without flaws, for sure they have posted several details and metrics about it with lots of hype.
But we only get push forwards and the recent drop of price at their WebShop raises me concerns. They are selling something which doesn’t exists yet with a discount price. I wonder if thats a sign the “dough” is running out.
Some guys here talk about “Keesjan Klant” this and that. I did my own digging and this guy is a Concept Design Engineer. How many awesome/amasing “design concepts” turn into real production goods at a low cost?
– Very few ;-/
Cali, I think you nailed it.
Lowering the price before delivering the first unit is not promising and counter-intuitive to the crowd funding structure. I.e., “You take the risk, we give you a rock-bottom price, never to be offered again.” Klant has to be short of capital. Going back to this well also suggests there were no private stashes he could tap — something that would be a lay-up if he had a finished, accurate and working product. Troubling.
You’re spot on about Klant. He has yet to show an ability to monetize his designs. Any of them
When I looked at IQ2’s team of 6 half a year ago, 50% were in promotion not product. I’ve kept my powder dry since.
I always end my posts on this subject with, I hope I’m wrong. Long have I been in the market for a truly affordable power meter. I hope I’m wrong.
Correction: 2/3’s of IQ2’s team is in promotion (not 1/2), not product development or manufacturing.
So I did a little bit of social media stalking by myself and found some more or less interesting facts: since last July, IQ² is the main sponsor of a Dutch 2en division triathlon team (Triathlon Vereniging Haarlemmermeer). Later on, they founded a new pro triathlon team (link to trikipedia.nl) with complete sponsoring including a house (!) for the athletes to live in. Some of these guys participated in the 2019 Dubai Ironman 70.3 challenge and posted about this on facebook. Since they linked the official IQ² FB-page in their posts, you can find it there. In one post, the athlete (Milan Brons, finished on place 15 in Dubai, great job!) confirmed that even the pro team didn’t received their units yet. However, on the Instagram account of one of their employees (according to linkedin he is the R&D Manager at IQ²,the Instagram account was public until Tuesday, now it’s private) was a pic of the guy testing the power meter on his bike (you can still find the links to the pics on his twitter account). It seems to me that they are now practice a more restricted policy regarding their social media appearances, even the linkedin profile from Mr Klant was turned to private. To keep a long story short: it looks to me that they actually got a finished product but they are still testing internal. Maybe we will see them shipping out the first units this month :-)
I wonder if the folks at iq2 recognize that getting you a production unit amounts to probably a 10% sales boost. I imagine there are a lot of people waiting on a review (and actual shipping units) to make a decision.
There is a question on their Twitter Page, if they plan to send units to reviewers for testing and iq2 team replied on 29/01 that as soon as first units is ready, they will send it to Ray, GP Lama and a few others. So it indicates , that they still don’t have it done + price drops… Cali was right, when wrote – If they would have “The ONE” – for sure they have posted several details and metrics about it with lots of hype.
It depends. There’s the “Lets get everything out there ASAP” approach where people shoot you to pieces because they don’t believe it or there’s something not 100% yet (aka Minimum Viable Product). Or there’s the “Lets wait until it’s done” approach where people shoot you to pieces because they don’t believe you.
I don’t think IQ2 have much chance. They’ve said all along that when they have their final production units ready to be shipped, they’ll send review models from this batch. So far they’ve stuck to their word but it’s supposition to suggest it’s either they are just doing what they said or that they have nothing or are struggling.
This thread (and others) are just filling the void that is left by a lack of public statements. Unremitting negativity is as bad as unrelenting optimism.
An interesting clause in the T&C’s for the pre-order of IQ2. I would doubt whether anyone has even bothered to read these.
2. Payment
You will be charged the full Price of the Products at the time of placing the Pre-Order. If iQsquare is unable to commence shipping the Products on or before the one-year anniversary of your placing the Pre-Order, iQsquare shall process a full refund to you. Your placing of a pre-order constitutes your express agreement to iQsqaure of charging the full Price of the Producs at such time.
So basically they are so confident to ship in April’19 that they have put this clause to state that full refund would be available after one year from order placement this is far from standard.
Full refund is available any time a purchaser wants if they are unhappy with delays or just because they want their money back, see clause 6. Its pretty standard to include a clause ensuring agreements don’t go stale I wouldn’t read too much into this.
Mike, one easy way to check, if any of the pre sales want to try to get a refund go ahead and prove that Clause 6 is adhered to.
I would like to believe that iq2 team delivers PM on time, but fact that it has been February and no update from developers, PM was discounted before even started to sell…. doesnt help me to stay optimistic. I am really considering to order Powertap g3, which is on uk amazon now for only 223 pounds.
I saw an update on their Facebook page this morning stating GPLama and DC Rainmaker will be getting production units soon, so we can see some real life test data.
I for one can’t wait, as I really want to get some feedback from them both before committing to purchase.
I would love to believe that this product will deliver as promised and I am sure many of my friends will jump on this opportunity when it arises, IF it is up to standard.
Until then however, there is one major aspect that I fail to understand from an economic point of view and which makes me quite sceptical on whether this hype will result in an actual and reliable product: the pricing strategy.
I would totally understand that to enter an established market and to either “cannibalize” on the competitors (i.e. gaining market share from zero to reach critical mass) or to stimulate the market by creating new customers who did not have the money for a PM until now (which benefits all producers, but the newcomer the most), would justify such a low price, which at 150 EUR is about a third that of a Stages powermeter, at most. However, the move to actually LOWER that price even further to 130 EUR seems mindboggling to me, irrespective of the rationales on alternative materials used! The real advertising value was the implicit message that an accessible and RELIABLE powermeter can be mass-produced and sold at a third the price of that of the competition. Too low of a consumer price would at some point raise more questionmarks and disbelief about reliability and become counter-productive, since there is no such thing as a free lunch and potential buyers would simply not believe that the competition had such profit margins on their products (or such bad technology) to justify a 3-5 times higher price-point. To give a further discount on something that is already extremely cheap, has no justification whatsoever from a sales point of view, especially since production has limitations due to the mentioned process of molding and the production process, as mentioned by the developers. To actually lower the price at this point, either means an extremely immature financial planning or market entry strategy, or the more likely scenario: damage control. In other words, that the product (concept) is failing and the developers deem it suitable to either limit the financial damage as part of their exit plan (perhaps due to a legal ceiling of the amount they can still justifiably keep in pocket for “work delivered”, meaning the creative process until now), or to actually (purposefully) try to hold back orders, to avoid a fiasco in case they cannot deliver. I am sure that if any of the readers knows EU law on taxation and lawsuits, they would find interesting paragraphs regarding financing through crowdfunding, who knows whether this is something that is aimed at right now by lowering prices? Speculation aside, fact is that currently the firm is artificially decreasing their income and even bring their own rationales why they want to earn less. Does this make sense?..
Hopefully it is just a (logistical) delivery issue and their strategy is aimed at curbing enthousiasm and decreasing order numbers until they get their things in order, perhaps until they actually have their first batch out and consumers can beta-test these sufficiently until an acceptable end-product is being produced. I’m afraid though that even if that is the case, the consumer will be the victim of such guinea-pig practices either way: crowd-funding a concept that is still a dream, but not reality yet. In that sense, this product still does not exist, except in the minds.
I for one will only buy such a product once its functioning has been proven, without bias and media/developer manipulation.
Peka, you might want to consider that they merely want to push revenue and to achieve a target of say EUR2M. Once this target is achieved they will bring in equity investment, I would think EUR500K to fill the hole. They are losing their shirt on a retail price of EUR129. Ignoring all of this and of graver concern is, where is the POWER DATA. IQ2 have clearly focused on marketing to pull in sales and continue to do so even after months of failing to deliver. The one thing that would drive sales for sure is comparative power data with the industry leaders and yet nothing and if even more incredulous no one asking for data, everyone has forgotten this.
I think you have misunderstood the essence of my remark: if they would want to “push” revenue by lowering prices of the cheapest option even more, one would have to assume that this results in increase in both sales and total revenue. My opinion is that at this pricepoint, those who are buying the product due to its low price, have already done it, or are new buyers that heard of it by chance, previously unaware of the products previous 150 EUR price. I don’t believe that there is a significant threshold around the 130-150 EUR mark, where suddenly they would sell that many more pieces: the threshold likely lies arounf the 200 EUR mark and anything below that is extra but does not further stimulate sales of the target group. Considering a regular Gauss-curve for sales, the additional sales volume resulting from lowering this already quite favourable price, should be minimal. It has virtually no marketing value as it does not result in any media coverage, so the only potential (additional) buyers are either those who did not find the 150 EUR acceptable, but do so for 130 EUR or new/incremental buyers. The 20 EUR lost revenue per sales for the incremental buyers (who would have bought it anyway, for 150 as well) would have to outweight the profits of the first group (who are buying it because of the 20 EUR discount), since they do need to pay the production price and their overheads. Such a low price could indicate, as you said, that they are already making a loss on this. So how would a further negative result improve their revenues, when they need to pay bills?.. Every company’s initial period is the most capital intensive, due to the overheads, patents, production guarantees, blueprints, advertising/PR, etc. Since production is limited, it would only work if they do not actually deliver, but collect the revenues for the virtual sales, without guarantee. Which means the new buyers are basically buying on credit, since they are last in line (on paper, at least)..
Raising venture capital only works if you convince the investors with a solid business plan. No money can be raised by simply showing for higher revenues, as towards the investors this does not go with increased chances of a successful market launch. Investors are convinced through a solid financial picture and a business plan that nails it, definitely not by these irrational discounts right at the start.
Peka, quite a treatise on supply/demand. Is this part of a PhD thesis? Phew.
Try Gresham’s Law, it may be more applicable here.
Cheers
IQ team announced new update with picture of first batch, which will be delivered soon. It looks promising, however I would not be to optimistic. The promised to start ship on February, which will not happen as they want to test is first. Nothing against it, but another delay. I contacted them regarding shipping volume of each batch, delivery time for e-shop orders – (they still say March), app release date on Google play and apple store, sending units to Ray and Shane Miller. I got prompt answer, but there is not a single specific information. Just empty words. It seems to me at least suspicious, that at time, when they have started to received first complete units, still have nothing specific to say, cannot answer simple question, which the should know answer for (when/if production started). I find the way they communicate wrong and dishonest and don’t believe a word in their updates anymore, nevertheless wish and hope in their success. I don’t play down complexity and difficulty to produce something like that and am aware that some complications naturally occur, but don’t like to lied and even if they eventually bring functional product, this should be change. But what I know, I don’t work in public relations , so maybe that’s the way it is.
I think they have an established pattern of not committing to a specific date until they’re ready to ship and nothing has changed. With all due respect toRay and Shane I don’t see them getting units as the critical path for me getting a unit.
The point is not that Ray or Shane NEED TO get a unit… the point is: without independent review, how do you know if the data you receive from the unit is accurate?
At this price point and whatever has not happen yet from the IQ2 who promised “the heaven” and so far only shown b###it, keep pushing forward whats important, do any of you believe the IQ2 will have an accuracy of 1% as they state? I won’t, but then I don’t care, I want one to train with power for myself not to compare to somebody else’s power.
What if the accuracy is off by 5% or more. These independent reviewers will slam the product down and that will kill future sales (check GPLama review about the ronda/xcadey stages clone for example) . IQ2 is afraid of these guys if their product is not as good as they are promoting it. For promoting their mass pre-sales GPlama and DCRain mkt pushes were all the pitch they needed to “attract the herd”.
If we all waited so far , waiting a couple of more month will be the same. In the meantime maybe they’ll finally ship something and who knows…. The sensor is as good as they stated. They will be genius, sales rates will ramp up. And I and all the other non-full-believers are just haters.
i’m dreaming awaked!!!
Have fun
Agreed! For that price I’m fine with 5%. But without any independent reviewing it could be 30% and no consistency (which obviously does matter), and I still wouldn’t know. I just want to know what we’re getting :-)
Eventually the independent reviewers will have access to a unit and we’ll known their opinions. Being ignorant I would say Ray’s is also a baker of this product and like all the bakers will someday receive his unit.
If the units are indeed within the promised specs they’ll want to have good reviews from anyone to drive new sells. Iq2 has being driven their dream product based on pure arrogance and hype. They are fast posting valueless facts and keep hiding the real ones.
As much as I like Rays and specially Shane’s reviews, these guys have too much media power. For manufactures they are a double edge knifes. They can drive sales madly or crash and burn any product they are not to found of.
I’m pretty sure that it’s the girl who is the baker, not Ray ;-)
Definitely, I’m not allowed to bake in our household.
Technically, making pizza in a pizza oven is baking…
Did they even comtact you recently?
Not yet. I presume they will when they’re ready to ship something.
A week past their latest “promised” ship date and no word from the company. Guessing the tests on the “production” units didn’t go so well and there are fatal flaws that they don’t know how to fix. Maybe they shouldn’t have spent money on that tri team. I want to be pleasantly surprised, but right now, they are acting like a company in serious trouble.
“It seems that one of the power meter components influences the power readings in a way that is challenging to fix with software.”
Not looking promising!
Agreed. As someone who bought a couple of them, this line in the update is most concerning.
DC, time for you to call this one out for what it is? You endorsed Keesjan Klant that is surely now in question? Given their most recent announcement, I would question that they will ever ship a product. It will be interesting to see once the forensic accountants pick this one apart as they did with Zano, where the cash has been spent. I am sure there are more surprises than on a Tri team in Dubai. Bet Astrid Peters could reveal a thing or two on this?
DCR did not endorse the product, he said “So yes – if you’ve got 149€ to spare (or 199€ for the dual-leg) and don’t need a power meter this year – then give the wheel of Kickstarter fortune a spin. It might just pay off. ”
Thats different entirely. It not Rays job to “call this out”. The market will decide, when it all becomes clear.
I decided to cancel my order and get a 2nd hand stages so I can train with power this season, but I watch with interest. (& hope for my other bike).
Justin and I quote:-
Meeting with the founder Keesjan Klant was without question interesting. He’s part Elon Musk and part Dr. Emmett Brown from Back To the Future. I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off. He and his team are certainly smart enough – and he’s got a long resume of far greater and more complex engineering projects to work from.
If that isn’t an endorsement then what is, not of the product but of the individual behind the campaign. DC states he has zero question, that means he has no doubt that Keesjan will deliver so I rest my case. You clearly didn’t ultimately invest but cancelled your order, but many did and I am sure based on this endorsement. You might want to question Keesjan’s background, please list the projects that have been so convincing to DC, a patent for a universal adaptor?
Finally I am interested to note that you cancelled your order, how, you cant cancel Kickstarter or Indiegogo nor can you cancel your pre order, so please can you tell me how to cancel, I am sure 10K individuals would be interested to know how you did cancel to get a refund.
Ultimately, people read what they want and ignore what they don’t want to hear.
If one analyzed my summary section, you’ll find 7 paragraphs (plus one line). One paragraph is positive towards IQ2, 5 paragraphs are negative towards their plans, and one paragraph is mixed.
Ultimately, as I note in the post multiple times – it’s a Kickstarter project. Treat it as a gamble at Vegas, and never expect it on time. I outlined numerous times in the post that I thought they had a lot of work to do and that hitting their timelines was unlikely. They’re doing exactly what I said they’d do. Re-read what I wrote. Nothing has changed.
There’s nothing to call out – I’ve discussed it in live streams, podcasts, and plenty of other places. It’s exactly the same as it was nearly a year ago. We wait, as simple as that.
In theory it is possible to cancel the pre-order any time: “6. CANCELLATION
You or iQsquare may cancel this reservation by terminating the Pre-Order at any time for any or no reason prior to our notice to you that your Product is ready for delivery. If you do so prior to our notice of delivery, you will obtain a refund of the purchase Price without interest. If iQsquare cancels your reservation you will receive a full refund of the purchase Price without interest. Cancelling can only be done by sending an email to info@iqsquare.com.”
Of course, this applies to purchases made on the web store only.
And… I can confirm that the refunds for the pre-orders made on the web do work (after some insistence).
Latest Update (updates can be viewed here as well): link to kickstarter.com :
Hi all,
As promised last week, here’s another update. We’d firstly like to address the frustration that some of you have expressed, both here and on our social media channels. We completely understand you. If we weren’t the inventors of this product, but instead waiting on the other side as backers, we’d be equally disappointed by the shifting delivery dates and perceived lack of technical information.
Having acknowledged that, we do want you to understand that we don’twant to communicate any solid dates without being able to back them up. We did that in the beginning and it backfired a few times, leaving you surprised and somewhat suspicious in the process. So instead, we poured effort and time into getting two wonderful guys on our team as customer support, Glen and Kenneth. This way, everyone has access to information while we, as a startup company, work on the solutions. As for the community offering to help with our technical challenges, it’s very much appreciated :) We’re already working with (inter)national experts who are guiding us through some of the latest challenges, so we’re covered in that department.
Now, on to the update!
We mentioned last week that we experienced some hiccups that were challenging to solve with software. This week, after running multiple tests – inside, outside, pedal-focused, product-focused, crank-focused and more – we are a lot closer to reaching a conclusion on how to fix it. It seems there are possibilities within rewriting part of the software that will help minimize any inconsistencies in power readings. This should be good news!
As soon as we reach our conclusion, we’ll be back on here sharing it with everyone. We look forward to a positive result.
Kind regards, team iQsquare
link to iqsquare.com look like they gave up and went full pedal waa waa
Well that was a suprise, IQ2 are now proposing a pedal based Keo compatible pedal. It would be interesting to know what you think of the complete turnaround DC? Does that fit with your statement “I have zero question in my mind he’ll be able to pull this off”. I note many individuals on Indiegogo, Kickstarter and on FB are now more than unhappy.
IQ2 will no longer be able to offer a low cost solution, they are offering a pedal and will be offering this at a comparable price to the competition. It took Garmin 7 years to develop their pedal based system, IQ2 are underestimating the task ahead of them, good luck and lets see ultimately what Klant can deliver. He will run out of money long before the product is ready? I see on FB many have requested refunds and these are not forthcoming, doesn’t bode well. Will you now call this for what it is?
You can find my full post/thoughts on it here: link to dcrainmaker.com
IQ2 would do well to watch the following link to youtu.be of real concern is his comments on the new pedal solution, it doesn’t bode well. As for the product ready in August 2019 you are entirely right in what you say assuming they still have the money to complete and I would seriously doubt that.
Update 5/22/2019:
link to kickstarter.com
could you please do an update on them? My friend and me are still… neither getting our money back nor getting any powermeter units. :/
Kickstarter backers will never see that money so the only hope is we do get the pedals. I’m not holding my breath though.