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December 2017 – Heads up – you can now find my full in-depth review of Garmin Vector 3 here!
Today Garmin announced their third generation of power meters, Vector 3. This new unit brings sweeping changes both easily seen outside, but also internally as well. In fact, I’d argue the internal changes are far more important than the new pod-less design on the outside.
I’ve been riding with them for over a month now – and have a pretty good grasp on where things stand with the latest power meter to hit the market (the second power meter announced this week at Eurobike).
Given it’s a busy day here at Eurobike (and the show doesn’t even start till tomorrow), let’s dive straight away into the details.
What’s New:
This is the rare case where you can actually judge a book by its cover. Though, there’s an equal amount going on under the covers that you won’t find apparent or in any press release. First though, let’s start outside. Captain Obvious statement, the pods are gone:
Yes, external pods that housed the battery and communications pieces have evaporated, and are now housed totally within the pedal. You can see the difference above between Vector 1/2 and Vector 3.
After that, the changes get much more subtle. In having a conference call with the Vector team, one quote at the beginning stuck out, the Vector product lead saying:
“What are the things we don’t like in the reviews currently about the pedals. What are the things that hold us back from being the best power meter, the best pedal based power meter?”
As part of that list, there was everything from the pod design, to the spindle body, to bike stores dealing with multiple SKU’s, to even the pedal body.
So to capture all those changes, here’s a bulleted list I’ve put together based on that conference call, because everyone likes bulleted lists:
– No longer using Exustar pedals: Instead they internally developed the pedal. The Vector team said that while Exustar served them well, their goal with the pedal body “aimed to be considered like Shimano & Look”. You can see the new pedal just looks really clean now – and I’d say that at least from a looks standpoint they achieved that (it’ll likely take me a year or so to find out if that’s true from a durability perspective).
– Contains Bluetooth Smart: This is used both for firmware updates, as well as connectivity to head units using Bluetooth Smart (i.e. to a Polar or Suunto watch, or Zwift on iOS, or similar). See more notes on those down in the next section.
– Elimination of pods also eliminated SKU’s: If you didn’t buy Vector you may not know there were actually multiple Vector SKU’s, based on pod sizes. This in turn meant bike shops had to stock these multiple SKU’s and try and figure out who might buy what size. Vector 3 eliminates that, there’s only one SKU.
– Decreased weight: The unit now weighs 162g, versus the previous 179g.
– Changed bearing type: Previously they were bronze bearings inside, now they’re needle bearings.
– Totally different spindle body: Simply put, it’s all different both inside and out. Much of this of course is the result of changing everything else within the pedal, like the bearings.
– Increased rider weight: The certified weight is 105KG (231 lbs) for rider weight, previously it was 90KG (198 lbs). That may not sound like a lot, but that’s actually a fair bit different.
– Update pedals via phone or Edge: Previously you had to use the desktop or Edge device to update your firmware. Now you can use the Garmin Connect Mobile app to update Vector 3 firmware. That’s due to inclusion of Bluetooth Smart.
– Slight increase in spacer size: I think Garmin learned that people put too few spacers on, so you’ll notice the Vector 3 ones are a hair bit thicker so that if someone only puts one on, it’s still safe.
– Slight decrease in battery life: Previously it was 150 hours on Vector 1/2, however with Vector 3 it’s roughly in the 120 hour range with Cycling Dynamics and Bluetooth Smart enabled. If you don’t use a Cycling Dynamics capable head unit (it’s smart enough to know that now), it’ll get you closer to 150 hours again with just normal bike power. Also, they’re looking at allowing users to enable/disable the Bluetooth Smart power transmission if they want to eke out a few more hours as well.
Do keep in mind that if you first used Vector 1, a lot has changed since then. About a year after the initial Vector 1 released (but well before Vector 2), they ran through all of the hardware changes they made in the first 6-12 months internally. And of course, much of those learnings went into the totally revamped Vector 3.
Phew, got all that? Good. Let’s move onto the next section and talk through setting it up and using it out on a ride.
The Basics:
Starting with getting the unit installed, it’s as simple as taking out any pedal wrench and twisting the pedals on. You’ll want to stash a spacer in between as usual (they come with it), to ensure the pedal body doesn’t rub against the crank arm. This is the norm for all power meter pedals:
You do NOT need a torque wrench for this any more. It used to be with Vector 1 and 2 (yes, 2 also), that you needed a torque wrench to get accurate measurements. Or you at least needed to be sure that you cranked them down really hard. I showed in my original Vector review what happened if you didn’t torque to specs.
All of that’s gone now. Just wrench till it feels fine. Yes, I’m being ambiguous on purpose, because no, it hasn’t seemed to matter in my testing. I’ve tightened them to ‘barely snug’, and then gone out and done a single 4-6 seconds hard effort, and the power numbers look on-point.
As an aside, I went on a quest to try and find a pedal wrench that would travel in carry-on luggage (most are too big for TSA/etc security rules). Astoundingly, I actually found one that will work (no knives or anything in it):
So if you want to travel carry-on with just your pedals – there ya go!
In any event, with that done you’ll notice the inside of each pedal has a small LED status indicator. This helps for everything from troubleshooting to figuring out if the batteries have died.
Speaking of which, those batteries are now internal to the pedal body, in a small compartment that’s accessible with a simple Allen key/hex wrench:
Sometimes getting this little cap thing back in without the batteries falling out can be tricky. Not a deal-breaker, and only an issue if you’re trying to do it when the bike itself is perfectly level (like on a trainer).
The batteries have shifted from CR2032 coin cell to LR44 coin cell batteries. Two per pedal, four in total.
Closing that back up, we’ll go ahead and pair the pedals to the Edge unit. At present I’m doing that via ANT+, though with the new Edge 1030 I could do that with Bluetooth Smart (same goes with Fenix 5 and FR935). However, the current firmware doesn’t have Bluetooth Smart power broadcasting enabled quite yet. Garmin has a target date of mid-October at the latest for this, as they want to be sure it’s available for the trainer season.
They noted that they don’t see a ton of value for existing Edge users in using Bluetooth Smart transmission over ANT+ (and I’d agree, there’s actually reasons not to use that for power meters). However, they do see value in using Bluetooth Smart to connect to apps like Zwift, TrainerRoad, and others on devices (Apple/iOS) that don’t support ANT+. Hence why Bluetooth Smart power is in Vector 3.
So why might you not want to use Bluetooth Smart with Vector 3? Well mainly you’ll get less metrics. No standard exists on the Bluetooth Smart side for Pedal Smoothness, Torque Efficiency, or the whole of the Cycling Dynamics suite. Of course – one can argue all day long whether any of those metrics are useful – but if you’re paying for Vector 3 over others, you might as well at least record those things. Someday someone might figure out how to use them.
Back to pairing though. It’ll show up on your Edge unit like any other ANT+ power meter. In this case, I’m using the Edge 1030…simply…because.
As always with pedal based power meters, you’ll want to set your crank length. In my case that’s shifting from the default 172.5mm to 175mm.
I like to do a zero offset at this juncture. You’ll do that via the calibrate button:
With that done – you head out and ride. I typically do 1-2 very short (4-8 second long) sprints with any new power meter on the first ride, but especially pedal based ones. This helps tighten things up. I then do another zero offset, mostly out of habit. At which point, I’m ready to roll.
While riding you’ll get all your normal power meter metrics like total power, power balance, and cadence. You’ll also get all of the Cycling Dynamics details too. This includes things like platform center offset, seated/standing time, and so on. These can be individually picked up and added to data fields, and grouped onto a single Cycling Dynamics page:
And finally, afterwards you’ll get these same metrics on a portion of Garmin Connect (here’s a link if you want to look at it):
Here’s another indoor ride if you want to check that out too.
As you can see, everything is simple and straightforward. If you can use a hex wrench twice, you can pretty much use these pedals.
Initial Accuracy Tests:
Now I actually flip-flopped a fair bit on whether to have this be a full in-depth review, or just a first look/hands-on. Ultimately though, I decided on hands-on since I don’t yet have final hardware – and the final hardware I should receive in a few hours or so fixes a couple minor issues I saw in testing.
Still, I’ve got a boatload of rides on it – since late July I’ve been alternating rides between this and other units. The degree of careful I’ve had to be with all my photos over the past month or so has been nuts! Every Instagram and Strava pic ever so carefully cropped!
In any event, I’ve been comparing/testing it against a variety of other power meters, including:
4iiii Dual
Power2Max NG
Power2Max NG ECO
PowerTap G3
Stages (left-only)
Elite Direto Trainer
Tacx NEO Trainer
Wahoo KICKR Trainer
Wahoo KICKR SNAP Trainer
And, I’m probably forgetting something else too. But yeah, a lot of rides with a lot of variety.
And overall – things are really strong. I’ve experienced only a single spike – once – on a firmware just shy of a month old. Garmin says they’ve fixed conditions that could have led to that power spike in a firmware update that I received a few weeks ago, and I haven’t seen any other spikes. Also, I’ve made a very specific point of swapping the living crap out of these pedals between bikes and even back to the same bike – all without a torque wrench. I’ve never used a torque wrench in any of my Vector 3 tests. Just did it ’til it felt normal-snug.
In any case, let’s look at some data.
First is an outdoor ride I did. After doing some warm-up loops, I crossed the city – complete with cobblestones, followed by loops at a popular spot for cyclists, and then returning again across the city. I mostly went out of my way to find rough spots of road. Here’s the DCR Analyzer link for those that want to dig into the data themselves.
In this case, I’m comparing data against the 4iiii Precision (dual), as well as the PowerTap G3 hub. I’m also dual-recording the Vector on both the Edge and the FR935, to validate those numbers match.
Let’s dive into a few of the sprints, starting with this one.
As you can see, all the units track really nicely here. I’m seeing a little bit of separation between the 4iiii dual Precision prior to this sprint, but it seems to stabilize after.
Here’s another sprint – the same thing – all units come to almost exactly the same point. Note that as usual with max sprint power figures, you’re going to get a slight bit of difference on timing, due to the way head units and power meters transmit. So you’ll see they differ within 1-second, but get to that same point regardless.
If we crack open some cadence data from this ride, you’ll see things are very consistent here. All are within 1RPM at virtually all times, save the PowerTap G3 hub. But since that’s estimated cadence, we know it varies a little bit more, especially if you back off power briefly.
Finally, a glance at the mean-max graph for this set…which looks really solid. Note you do see a slight dip on the graph for the 4iiii unit, which is totally my fault when I accidentally paused it in traffic for about 2 minutes. Since there weren’t any sprints there it’s barely noticeable on the mean-max graph.
Next, let’s head inside for an indoor ride. Here’s the DCR Analyzer link for that. This one includes the Wahoo KICKR as well as the Power2Max NG ECO power meter.
As you can see, I was just sorta cruising along on the trainer here for much of it – not a super hard workout. But I was specifically looking at whether or not there was any drift in the unit – and doing something like this makes it really easy to see.
Let’s dive into that sprint at the end though, as that’s the fun part.
Here you see a bit of a spread of about 23w in total on 915w (so 2.5%). That’s somewhat normal, though in this particular case I might have expected to see the Vector unit on the upper end of this, given the way power loss works. Either way, for total accuracy we’re within range of the combined unit accuracy ratings.
I did a couple more smaller surges after this point, and you can see things are pretty darn similar:
Some slight reaction time differences of a second or so between different units, but basically all coming to the same numbers each time.
As you can see though – overall things look pretty good. But since this is pre-prod hardware I’m interested in doing a bunch of riding over the next month on the final hardware to see if that holds true. And of course, I’ll stack in a bunch more data as well for that final in-depth review.
Wrap-Up:
As noted, while I’m technically on beta hardware, overall things are looking very solid. This is basically the Vector that everyone wanted years ago before technical limitations came into play (aka: Reality). It’s small, lightweight, and transmits on ANT+ & Bluetooth Smart. It doesn’t require a torque wrench, nor does it have pods floating off the side.
So what are the downsides? Well, mainly just price I suppose. I’m concurrently working on finishing up writing my Favero Assioma pedals review, and that unit is really solid when it comes to accuracy. But it’s not so much the accuracy that’s attractive there – it’s the price: $735USD. Whereas Vector sits at $999USD. Meanwhile, the PowerTap P1 pedals have instantly priced themselves out of the game at $1,199USD (though, I suspect that’ll shift quickly). Note they are also selling the usual ‘S’ variant of Vector (Vector 3S), which is a left-only solution and down to $599USD.
Looking at those three pedals though, the Garmin unit is easily the slimmest of the bunch, and the one that looks the most like a regular pedal. At the same time, the PowerTap P1 has been in the market about two years, so it’s more of a known quantity. And Favero has been out about a month – and things look pretty solid there. Said differently: It’s a really interesting three-way race for pedal-based power meters.
Right now the plan is for units to start shipping in late September, so I’ll probably aim for a full in-depth review around then based on final production hardware and software.
With that – thanks for reading, and feel free to drop any questions below!
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Thanks for reading! And as always, feel free to post comments or questions in the comments section below, I’ll be happy to try and answer them as quickly as possible. And lastly, if you felt this review was useful – I always appreciate feedback in the comments below. Thanks!
What cleats are they using? Something unique to them? Or still friendly with the Keo cleats?
Still friendly with Keo.
Nice. Thanks for another solid review! Is the stack height much taller than a Keo 2 Max Blade?
Will the Wellgo RC-7 work? That is what I am currently using due to good price and durability. Those seem to be generic Look cleats, and what PowerTap includes in the box with P1 pedals.
What about shimano cleats (yellow)
Yellow shimano cleat compatibility would be superb
Chris, if you look at the 3-way comparison Ray noted that he’s used the RC7 cleats in the Vector3 without issue. FYI.
Advantages of each that I’m seeing…
Favero Assioma: chargeable, lighter, Look cleat compatible, less expensive
Garmin: no pod, nice looking
I don’t know much about the Assioma (so please correct me if this is out of line!) but my instinct would be that rechargeable batteries mean a poor battery life; not to mention degradation of that rechargeable battery’s capacity over time.
Personally, I’d rather switch out a disposable coin-cell battery every few months than have to charge it every couple of weeks.
Adam, that concern was covered in the comments of the Assioma thread. Favero and others have pointed out that any re-charge degradation concerns can be laid aside.
However, in a pinch, it is nice to be able to just swap out batteries instead of having to wait for a charge… assuming you have batteries to swap out. Environmentally speaking, I like the idea of recharging vs consuming more batteries.
I use Favero Bepro since March 2017 and have had to charge them approximately once a month. For the riding I do, it’s basically at every third Garmin 520 charge. Nothing of a problem IMHO.
I was easily able to ride home for three hours after the “power meter battery low” warning.
They’ve (allegedly) doubled the battery life on the Assioma pedals, so I’d have to charge them every 6-8 weeks. Considering the fact how often we charge our phones or other devices, that’s nothing.
Vector 2 -> 3 upgrade path or no dice this time around?
I’m not aware of anything.
I’d be surprised. Given that the pedal pods in the original (and v2) Vectors contained the hardware to transmit data to the head unit, I can’t see how an upgrade path would be possible, short of swapping over the entire unit. An upgrade to feature parity whilst retaining the pods MIGHT be possible, but that would mean another lot of hardware Garmin would need to keep around for spares into the future.
No, I think that if you want to upgrade to the v3 Vectors, you’ll need to shell out for the new units. The only reasons I’d have for doing so (Bluetooth support and dropping the need for torquing up) aren’t sufficient for me to fork over the dosh at this stage, but that’s me – you might be different.
If you were on your 4th set of Vectors like me, due to bearing crapping out, then you might see it differently….
Park Tool makes a more usable pedal wrench that should travel just as easily, the SS-15
link to parktool.com
That won’t work….there is no way to remove the wrench from the pedal after tightening.
My mistake I found it, sorry
thank you Ray – I had Vector 2’s and they were ok from accurancy (not great). Now I am out for a new pedal based and P1 not my choise since they are bulky, expensive and heavy. I am looking possitive for Assioma or V3 but I wait for your review to decide.
Price is important and if Assioma are accurate I probably go with them. I dont like V3 are still using the 15mm pedal wrench instead of allen wich is far more practical to carry and use.
” It used to be with Vector 1 and 2 (yes, too also)”.
Maybe that should be: It used to be with Vector 1 and 2 (yes, two also)
You mention that there are reasons to specifically choose ANT+ over Bluetooth Smart for power meter communications, could you elaborate on this? Based on the TrainerRoad podcast (I think), I’d been led to believe that Bluetooth was preferable to ANT+ due to less issues with signal drop-out due to interference.
Agghh, ok, you answered my question in the next paragraph. Sorry about that :-(
Hi Ray, what about oval (QXL and Q-Rings) Chainrings?
Same as previous, so no support.
What is the issue with using pedal based power meters with oval chanrings?
If oval chainrings are your thing, you should definitely check out PowerTap P1 pedals..
Hi Ray, do you know if Garmin plan to offer some sort of upgrade path from the 2 to the 3? I just purchased my Vector 2 at the end of July. Haven’t had them a month yet. Unfortunately, I don’t have the original packaging so I can’t return them. :o( -marc
SPD-SL compatibility?
Waterproofing level?
Thanks!
No, just Look Keo compatible.
IPX7 for waterproofing.
Hi Ray!
Do you know why Garmin don’t have SPD version? Maybe copyright problems?
If Garmin dispose the Vector 3 with SPD cleats, I’ll probably a Vector 3 user. Today I have a Power2max in my road and a Powertap hub in my TT. And I looking for a power meter for use in my TT and eliminate the problem for use only one wheel (today I use only a 88 mm profile wheel mounted with my PT hub).
Thanks Ray!
Does that mean the pedal body isn’t replaceable? That’s one thing I like about my V1s
The Keo tie-in is too bad. I detest the inevitable Keo Creak. (Admittedly, it takes longer to show up these days than it used to.) The Shimano conversion kit is what sold me the Vector 2.
Keep in mind it’s not an official Keo pedal. So any specific Keo manufacturing problem wouldn’t likely be seen here.
Understood. I’ve had the creaks with Keo Keos, and I’ve had the creaks with generations 1 & 2 of the Vectors. Admittedly, they took a much longer time to develop in the Vectors. But no creaks with the Vectors converted to Shimano pedals.
The PowerTap P1 can often be had for $959.20 plus taxes and S&H from backcountry.com when they do a 20% off coupon. That’s how I snagged a pair.
True, but that’s also true of any other power meter when Clever Training does their twice-annual 20% off sale too. So it’s all relative.
“Starting today [August 29, 2017] you can get the P1’s at $999 and P1 Single Sided at $599.”
link to powertap.com
So, they were right on the heals of this release and your review, Ray :P
See the last line in #8 of the link above.
Ray,
Which time of the year do those sales come along?
Roughly May and October or November.
wait, so if im 240lbs i cant use these?
Correct.
I’m 220 and haven’t had any issue with my V2’s. OTOH, my FTP is in the low 200’s, so I’m not putting a lot of stress on them
Weight Limits- I exceed the limit on both V1 & V2 without issues. At 6’8″ @ 255lb, often standing on hill often push 900-1100 or more watts without issue. After a year on V2, I discovered there was a weight limit on Vectors. Purchased a pair of P1’s that state no weight limit. Continue to use both, I like the pedal metrics of Vector. Needless to say, Garmin rated limit has large safety margin. Not stating to use overweight, just that I haven’t encountered any breakage or issues.
Fwiw, the weight limit is actually more focused on the internals of the power sensor spindle than it is a safety issue.
Ray, good to know… makes sense. Although between V2 and P1, same routes produce similar results in power. Not identical but consistent in differences… off hand I can’t recall which was a little higher or lower.
These look like a great pedal, let’s hope they are accurate and robust!
Just noted this bit in your review Ray, I’m 99.9% certain I didn’t install washers onto my P1 pedals, so I wonder if I should?
>> You’ll want to stash a spacer in between as usual (they come with it), to ensure the pedal body doesn’t rub against the crank arm. This is the norm for all power meter pedals:
Yes, yes, yes, yes…definitely.
The key thing is you don’t want the pedal to ‘rub’ against the outside of the crank arm. For most cranksets, 1 washer will do, but occasionally you need two.
Interesting, I don’t think I have either, and I’m fairly sure there is any rubbing going on. I’ll double check and get the spacers installed.
I need a set of power pedals, these folks are all making it tough to decide which ones.
Hmm, cheers Ray, just re-read the P1 instructions and they say only use a washer with a carbon crank arm….
I’ll ask the P1 lead in a few. He’s seated about 10 people from me in the room I’m in.
Greg, that’s what I remembered as well: no washer for Shimano 685l00/6850.
Excellent timing :)
I know this is a bit late but I just got my Vector 3’s. I looked at the manual online and it says to use the washers if the back of the pedal doesn’t have enough clearance from the chain. link to www8.garmin.com
Does it support oval chainrings? More precisely, does Vector 3 accurately measure the power output with oval chainrings?
How about bearing/spindle replacement?
I consider pedals a consumable since the bearings eventually wear out and need replaced. I’d hate to have to buy new $750 pedals every few years.
Hmm, lack of a pod makes me want to speculate about the possibility of a mountain bike pedal on the horizon. Probably not for a while, though.
Did you do any tests with these using any of the Elemnt units?
I don’t believe so. Is there something specifically your interested in? I’ve got a BOLT with me at Eurobike.
Just wanted to make sure everything worked with the Elemnt head units (setup, power data, etc.) and Garmin hasn’t done anything goofy to prevent competitors from connecting or having access to all the data.
Gotchya. At present keep in mind Garmin Cycling Dynamics is limited to Garmin head units. That’s the stuff like Platform Center Offset and Seated/Standing time.
So on Wahoo today you’re talking core stuff: Power, Power Balance, Cadence, Torque Efficiency, Pedal Smoothness.
Do they calibrate ok with the bolt, for example, how do you set the installation angles or is that a thing of the past. Will the bolt require an update before use?
Will the bearings be owner serviceable? If not, what is the life expectancy. I can’t really see any reason to go for p1 at all anymore, if the bearings hold up well. P1 had some problem with this, and they used needle bearings as well, did they not? I guess, only time will tell, if Garmin has not tested this thoroughly.
For maintenance, the spindles can be removed to grease the bearings. There will be service kits, which include the bearings and cartridge already pressed into a replacement pedal body.
Awesome! This is the pm for me then.
Thanks Ray.
That’s good. so now I’m simply waiting for a price drop on the vector 2s upgrade ; hoping that I will finally know if I’m balanced between my 2 legs :)
Gerome, I’ve got a set of Vector2 for sale. Contact me.
Ray, you didn’t mention who makes that multi-tool with the 15mm wrench. Who’s the maker? Thanks!
BTW, is it possible to statically check the pedals with a known weight?
Sorry, my bad – here’s the link: link to amzn.to
It’s some random no-name brand. It required intense Amazon googling!
As for static check, yup, same as before (like this: link to forums.garmin.com)
Not sure how much leverage the multi tool gives, but another compact option would be a cone wrench like the Park DCW-4 or PT-09 in 15mm.
Hi Ray,
Do you think the V3 has a better accuracy that the V1 & V2?
Thanks
Great first look Ray. I am curious why your testing protocols lack comparison to an SRM such as the Dura Ace 9000 or similar? Despite the obvious higher pricing of the SRM models, as a long time SRM customer, many (myself included), still consider the SRM to be the gold standard for powermeters.
I’m not aware of anyone (except perhaps SRM themselves) in the power meter or sports technology industry these days that considers SRM the gold standard for power meters.
To be fair however, “no one considers SRM the good standard anymore” without a scientific review and comparison to other current power meters seems hollow.
Why not review the SRM, compare it to others as you have done with these power meters, and put it to the test once and for all?
As a longtime SRM owner I have been interested in seeing how other power meters compare so I can make a decision if it’s time to move on or continue purchasing in the SRM family.
However I’m not going to do that if sites like yours refuse to review current market models against the competition, make comments about how SRM isn’t the good standard, but resist backing that up with a review.
It just strikes me as odd, and disappointing, that a review site of all places would take such a stance…..
Malik,
I’m not Ray, but here his words:
“Would I buy it: While I do own one, I certainly wouldn’t recommend someone else buy one. With the exception of very specific technical use-cases that other power meters can’t fulfill (higher speed recording rates with older head units), I feel that for 98% of the market today, there are more budget friendly options that are just as accurate. I don’t subscribe to the “gold-standard” concept, maybe at one historical point, but not in this market. And as the Pro Peloton has proved, virtually every other power meter in this list is just as good as an SRM (if not better).”
link to dcrainmaker.com
Thanks, I had read last year’s roundup, but that was just that. A roundup with commentary.
It’s not a scientific review like this. I haven’t seen one for SRM in years on this site. Let alone when comparing against new competition.
Again, that strikes me as odd….
I actually do own an SRM power meter and pull it out occasionally.
But there’s simply no demand for such a review. I think I’ve seen one request for an SRM power meter review in the last year, that’s it.
And when it comes to things like temperature compensation without stopping, they aren’t industry leading (in fact, it’s easy to trick an SRM power meter). Whereas others do compensate for that, and that matters if you’re doing a long climb where the temperature drifts – especially in a race where you don’t stop.
All of which ignores other features that people care about: Following the ANT+ standard (which SRM doesn’t do properly all the time), having Bluetooth Smart support (at all), or aspects like not requiring a magnet.
Well now you have two additional requests for a review. Not only on its own merits but when compared to other products like the ones you’ve listed here. :-)
If I could get no compromise SRM quality for a fraction of the price I will do that. But I need an actual scientific review from sites like this to understand that.
There has been a rather thorough comparison of power meters. The abstract is here:
link to thieme-connect.de
The full paper is linked to in a Wattage thread here (see the third post):
link to groups.google.com
While I think the study made good ground, it was undercut by the fact that they didn’t have ownership of the models – and thus couldn’t attest to whether a unit was valid or not. Also, some of the models were too generic. Meaning categorizing all Quarq or Power2max units as one is like saying all Toyota cars are the same.
Well, long time readers of DCRainmaker know that there are two cases when one must not have unlimited trust to Mr Rainmaker’s writings – namely Wahoo and SRM. Wahoo has always positive reviews no matter what and never gets any real critique (even if the first gen Kickr was really unaccurate and basically flawed design and even if Wahoo doesn’t follow ANT+ standard correctly). And SRM gets always the bashing, no matter what.
Sounds like you haven’t read my most recent Wahoo bike computer post.
But then again, I find that most people who make statements like yours generally don’t actually read what I write.
As for Wahoo not following the ANT+ standard correctly, I’ve honestly got no idea what your talking about. Care to elaborate?
Note that it’s not so simple to test power meters to determine which is the most accurate and the most precise. For the former, you need a device whose power output has been calibrated, and by calibration I don’t mean the calibration done in-house at each power meter manufacturer but instead a calibration done in a traceable way by, usually, a national measurement and standards agency or someone certified by such an agency. That’s the only way you can reliably certify such a power source. That might be expensive. While I’ve know doubt that Mrs. Rainmaker’s cupcake shop rakes in piles of dosh (this is based on my belief that cupcakes are the supreme version of cake, especially with they’re covered in delicious mounds of icing, and as such cupcake makers should be richly rewarded), I certainly can’t say what Ray would spend on test equipment.
Ray can certainly do tests of precision, and I think that his power plots using multiple power meters are a good proxy of a precision test.
Do you plan on doing another powerpod review.
How do you think the accuracy of it stands up against the v3 or the stages
I don’t plan to do another review at this point. Aside from some improvements made on road vibration, it’s still essentially the same. Nothing wrong with that, but just where I stand on prioritization.
Can you please let us know if you still need to put these pedals on with a specific torque or can you just fit them like normal pedals? thanks :-)
Seems pretty clear in the text Rob under the Basics section Ray typed:
>> You do NOT need a torque wrench for this any more.
Was any preliminary testing done on the single pedal (3S)? If balance is not important to one, I wonder if there are any other advantages of the dual pedal. I realize ultimate accuracy might be a little better, but only a little. I am more interested in response and smoothing times.
I never realized the low weight limit on the Vector and Vector 2. Sure 198 lbs is kind of a lot, but for anyone over 6’3″ it isn’t too crazy to think (plus I tend to want some amount of margin)
Glad to see they’ve bumped it up here.
Also glad to see the extra competition, maybe my next PM will be pedal based rather than crank (still living on old powertap training wheels for now).
Great review. Thanks.
really no spd version?
Interesting pricing choice. If the V3 turn out to be accurate and reliable, P1 must not simply match the USD999, but go below, I think. Or maybe match with a relatively persistent ‘sale’ price. But what would that price be? I’d still pick a reliable/accurate V3 at USD999 over the well-known P1 at USD899. Maybe USD799 would get me to pick P1. Then, is the Assioma in the fight at USD735? I think that it also must go lower, USD 699 or even USD 649. Thoughts on pricing?
Powertap respond!
link to powertap.com
Starting today you can get the P1’s at $999 and P1 Single Sided at $599.
Not quite as much a drop as I was hoping for from Powertap on the P1. Same as the Vector 3, but ~$300 more than the Assioma.
Garmin screwed me over with v1 and v2… thx but no thx. P1 are bulky but they haven’t failed me in two years!!!
I am waiting for the assioma review tho.
Ray, is there no pedal based PM manufacturer that works with Speedplay still?? Such a huge market is waiting for whoever can come out with one, is it so hard to do??
Nope, the only one that was in that camp was Brim Brothers, but they never hit market.
I haven’t paid much attention to the pedal-based meters because I use Speedplay as well. I always assumed because you could flip them over it was not really conducive to adding a “pod”. Now that the pod appears to be gone, I was hoping they would work toward something like Speedplay in upcoming versions. (fingerscrossed)
Any chance we get a Vector 3 vs Vector 3S comparison chart? I could justify $599 specially when comparing it to other left only solutions and the convenience of a pedal based solution.
How about a “battle of the left” pm on your annual recommendation? it would be useful for those of us in a limited budget
Yup, I’ll be adding in all of those.
Is there an option for Shimano cleats? eg like the Ultegra conversion with the Vector2 ?
Considering how the V3 pedal body incorporates a battery compartment whereas Shimano bodies (just like V2) don’t I would not hold my breath. The Shimano option might hold the V2 market alive for quite some time (used, leftover stock and maybe even new production).
I don’t know anything, but I suspect that Shimano could be bound by some “basic principles” Look IP that they can’t sublicence without Look’s consent even if they wanted. In that case, Look could force all third party powermeter pedals onto Keo until the patents run out. As I said, I don’t know (alternatively, Shimano might just be a little stubborn), but the general awkwardness of the V2 conversion gives quite some ground for speculation.
Ray,
The Vector2 pedals (based on Exustar bodies) had an optional part available from Garmin to adapt the axles to Shimano Ultegra 6800 SPD-SL pedal bodies. Can you ask Garmin if this is possible or planned with their new Vector3 in-house pedal design?
I got distracted while posting. AliP beat me to it.
I would like to know about that too!
link to twitter.com
P1 $999
Hi Mark, great pre.review :)
1. I know it’s hard question for you due that you need carefully choose wording but anyway what will you choose Garmin Vector 3 or Power tap P1 as they lowered price to same level ?
2. Does Garmin Vector 3 in current firmware support “Oval chainrings” or as many others just empty promises that it will be added later on (in realitty never :( ?
3. Do you know for any EU pre-order shop for Vector 3, with perhaps any discount as on “Clevertraining” in US?
Thank you.
PS: will you test it also with Garmin 1000, now as you have 1030?
Sorry, I mean Ray (not Mark) :) :)
NO reply ?
1) I give some thoughts on pricing and pedal choices here: link to dcrainmaker.com
2) No support there.
3) CT UK is still waiting for Garmin UK to get listing information for the Vector 3. But once they have it, then the links will be up and the DCR coupon code for 10% off will apply there (since it’s non-US).
4) I actually have done some Vector 3 testing with the Edge 1000 – no issues.
Thanks for reply, 3) CT is from USA so when ordering into EU I will need to pa py additional customs and taxes?
There’s actually Clever Training US (out of Florida), and Clever Training Europe, which is based in the UK.
So when ordering from CTUK, it’s all within the EU and thus everything is handled already.
The question I guess is when will Powertap P2 pedals be out….
Ray, thanks once again for your thoughts on the new vector PM. Garmin sold a conversion kit to allow shimano pedal bodies to be used with the vector spindle. Do you know if the V3s are compatible or if Garmin are intending on releasing an updated conversion kit?
Hi,
thanks for your work. Because of my fenix 5 and stages issues I’d like to change to Assioma or Vector 3.
You did your testing with Edge and Forerunner 935. Is there a chance that you try both powermeters with a fenix 5. I’d like to know if there are also ant+ issues, before I decide.
And…former vector pedals had problems with temperature adaption. I think I read that Assioma has no problems with that…how about the vector pedals?
Thanks!
How would these hold up gravel racing?
I’m not Ray, but in my experience I would expect the main problem with these pedals and riding gravel would be the hike-a-bike sections (i.e. road pedals aren’t terribly conducive to walking a bike through unridable muddy sections.)
* road _cleats_ aren’t terribly conducive to walking a bike through unridable muddy sections
Well, they sort of go together :-). Look/Keo pedals at least, deal pretty poorly with dirty cleats.
P1 are actually $999.99 now, so they dropped them, would be nice if Vector could be installed with a hex wrench instead of a pedal wrench.
How does the stack height for these three compare?
How do they do with temperature compensation? I do a lot of rides where the temp can easily swing 10F-20F+ degrees in an hour or two. It’s one of the reasons I have stuck with Stages. Thanks Ray!
The strain sensitive elements and electronics are largely immune to temperature effects. Any residual (secondary) effects are addressed by active temperature compensation. The active temperature compensation is performed using calibration tables that are generated during manufacturing and are specific to each Vector unit.
I currently use PowerTap P1s and I’m scared to death of powering through tight corners because I have had the bottom of both pedals hit the road. The first time it happened (the first day I used them) it was *hard* contact, causing the rest of the bike to lift up and get shoved to the side. It was a miracle that it didn’t flip me into oncoming traffic at high speed. It was a pucker moment for the books!
After that I made sure to not pedal in tight corners, but still misjudged just how far I had to back off some months later, scraped the other side (more lightly this time).
So, the relative pedal depth would be nice to hear about with all these new pedal-based power meters coming to market. For those of us with 175+cm cranks, it could be a matter of life and death )-:
I made that mistake of pedaling through a decent turn the other day on my P1 pedals. Freaks you out a bit when hitting the ground. I also have 175 cranks. Ground a couple corners off the bottom of the pedals.
No compatible with the Edge 1000?
According to the Garmin official site, the Edge 1000 is not on the compatible items list.
?
Ray, you got any details about that?
Interesting, on the US website it is listed, on the other countries’ sites it is not. I assume it is compatible then. Never mind my previous comment and thank you for the great review.
One more thing thing though; If you had to make a choice, would you take the V3 or the Favero Assima? -The price difference is quite big and they both seem to do an accurate job (according to your reviews)
Ray,
Any idea if Garmin will follow a loyalty-user type program and promote the Vector 3 to current Vector 2 users and do a trade-in/swap for a reduced price? It woudl certainly keep people onside to what looks like a vastly improved product for a UX point of view; no pods, no torque wrench. they have been the bain of my life since the start.
I’m in the same camp – was an early adopter of Vector 1. Was frankly the biggest nightmare of a product from the start.
Then in a fit of mindlessness / foolishness I bought the Vector 2 upgrade. Again, a product that was totally unfit for purpose. As you say, the bain of my life, everytime I need a few more watts I think about my Vectors and the rage duly delivers.
Finally, on the third iteration they look like they have cracked it. But i find myself questioning my sanity that I am actually considering going down this road again, being punished by Garmin again for my naivety… Ray needs to reassure me that these things really are (finally, finally, FINALLY) the real deal?!
This is very interesting; I placed an order for favero assioma. And still waiting for delivery. Seeing the Garmin pedals, I think maybe I should cancel the assioma order and pre-order Garmin. My reason being in three years time when the rechargeable battery in the assioma is no longer charging. Getting them replaced will be a mission.
Why should it stop after 3 years? Maybe its capacity will drop a bit but nothing dramatic
link to dcrainmaker.com
link to bepro-favero.com
It may drop a bit after three years. but from that point onwards degradation is inevitable. I would not want to buy new power meter every 5 years if I can avoid that.i would much rather replace the batteries. it will be good to know if favero will have a service where by you can send your pedals for battery replacement.
where is the review of the assioma pedals???? im torn between the p1 and those, need to see whole review please ray. lol
Three Look-compatible pedal-based power meters. I see an aero test coming. Should be interesting.
Hmm…maybe…just maybe…I need to find someone that specializes in that. :)
Hi Ray,
Excellent round up, as always.
Do you have any word on UK pricing (be it confirmed or likely)?
Thanks
Liam,
It’s on their website:
link to buy.garmin.com
£499.99 single sided, £849.99 double sided
Really love to upgrade my two sets of Vector 2 but I doubt it will ever be possible.
A real shame.
Nick
Any chance of testing at higher cadences especially in the sprints up to say 130 or 140 like we would see on a velodrome
Is it possible to see cycling dynamics on a computer with an ant+ USB dongle?
No.
Do these pedals transmit anything that the Edge 520 can’t interpret/ display?
Yup, all good there. All data will be shown.
Finally it appears as though Garmin does something right.
I’m pretty impressed with the look of these pedals. Way nicer than the power tap stuff. BLE transmission, I didn’t see that coming! Now the 1030…I doubt its going to work very well. Pair these with the Vector 3 + Edge 520 would be a good combo.
Hi Ray,
Thanks for the great summary.
Million dollar (or at least $999.99) question – which of the Vector 3 or P1 Powertap pedals are better value at $999.99?
I’m a (severely) burnt Vector 1 & 2 customer. Do I now have reason to believe?
I talk about that here a bit: link to dcrainmaker.com
Do you think it would be technically possible to have SPD (the “mtb” variant) pedals with power? Personally I would _love_ a Vector3 or alike (easily transferable to a different bike) for SPD.
Not interested if there is no Shimano SPD PEDAL
Did Garmin fix the massive delayed cadence and power reporting issues? I believe the delay was about 6-12 second with a Quarq being around 2.5 to 3 seconds to report any changes on the head unit display. It was so bad that I took off the cadence and power fields from my headhunt while using the Vectors. Garmin couldn’t identify the issue and gave up.
I’ll be honest, I’ve never heard anyone say that before. Ever.
Easy test. Start pedaling for 10 seconds then stop. How long does it take for each PM to report 0 on the head unit. The same situation occurred with power. The Vectors would continue to report X wattage 6-12 seconds after pedaling stopped, but the Quarq reported it within 2.5 to 3 seconds. The delay also occurs on the front and back end of the test.
Yeah, I put them on other units and they start reporting immediately. As did Vectors too honestly. Again, I really haven’t heard what you’re referring to. :(
Weird. Garmin sent me two sets of complete pedals and couldn’t resolve the issue before refunding it. I was using the pedals with an Edge 510. It could have been a weird headunit compatibility issue or fixed in a later version of the Vector code. I did see a reference to improved sync time between pedals, but the problem has been fixed is the important fact.
As an Android user I hate having to somehow find an iOS device to update my P1s… that’s pretty awesome you can update these Vectors via the head unit!
You can use the Android version of the Rouvy app to update your P1 pedals. It was released a few months ago.
link to powertap.com
Yep, not just the new Vectors…the old ones were updatable via my Garmin Edge too.
Now that the pods are gone, is the Shimano SPD upgrade kit also off the table? I’d love the Vector with my Shimano pedals but the pods kept me away from the Vector. Now it seems that the pods are gone, and the Shimano upgrade kit also won’t work.
So… waiting for Vector 4 I guess :-)
It’s not in the shortm-term realm unfortunately.
Apart from the obvious physical changes, is there any software advantage to these over V2s? Are we likely to see future dynamics that are V3 only? (though I guess there’d be nothing to stop Garmin putting in an artificial restriction anyway).
Just trying to work out if it’s worth paying the extra for the V3s over the V2s when the V2’s pods or ease of installation wouldn’t really be an issue for me.
Do you think the new Apple Watch will be able to display power/cadence data from the Vector 3 now with its addition of Bluetooth Smart?
Definitely not natively. However, like today I believe 3rd party apps could. I’m not sure off-hand if any 3rd party Apple Watch apps can connect to power meters today. Maybe CycleMeter?
More importantly, how does the Vector 3 power track against the Vector 2, massively important for those upgrading. I’d rather it match Vector 2 rather than being more accurate s all my historic power numbers will be out of the window
It’d be technically impossible to compare Vector 3 and Vector 1/2 at the same time.
However, I’ve never really seen accuracy issues with Vector 1/2, assuming you torque-wrenched/installed properly.
damn, i really would like this to be a shimano type as i have used for so many years and on every single bike!
Hi, first of all many thanks for your excellent reviews. They are very helpful in deciding which product to buy…
That said I have a question regarding the powermeter pedals:
Do you know if there are any plans of the manufacturers to bring Shimano cleats compatible pedals one the market?
Thanks and best regards
Christian
Does anybody know if these pedal might be compatible with a Wahoo headunit? I’m loathe to buy pedals & then another Garmin just to use them!
Pre-ordered via Clever Training. Hopefully these don’t develop much cartridge/body play like the Vector 2 did.
no such option in EU store
I guess my other comment got lost in the flow. Let me try this again.
Ray, unbiased; Vector 3 or Favero Assioma 2?
It’s really a matter of what you prefer the most – a slimmer/smaller form factor (sans-pods of the Assioma), or the price. Obviously Assioma is about $250-$300 cheaper than Vector – but with the pods. For many people, that’s a solid deal and they don’t care about the pods
On the flipside, Vector 3 has cycling dynamics which may be of use to some.
I don’t see accuracy concerns with either at this juncture.
No long term durability issues? rechargeable batteries don’t last forever and while a gps head unit may be upgraded to something much better a few years down the road when the battery wears out a power meter is still just as useful then as now, just need a new battery
None that I’ve seen with either.
The rechargeable battery thing was discussed a bit recently on the Favero post. In short, given the number of charge cycles they were looking at, coupled with their warranty to top it off – just not any actual concerns there. The math for a unit like that was in the decades realm (battery-wise).
Hi Ray
are the Vector 3 pedals compatible with edge 810 it is not listed at Garmin website as compatible? Would be nice if you could test it if you still have such an old head unit ;)
What about the Edge 520?
Hi,
Any opinions on whether I should choose a quarq d-zero or the garmin vector 3’s?
I like the transferability of the pedals (even though I don’t have a second bike I would want to transfer them to as my other bike is a CX bike) but I really like Shimano cleats and don’t want to go through the hassle of changing brands and refitting them. Quarq on the other hand would be much more difficult to transfer and would need the same bottom bracket on another bike or assorted spacers. Which way would you go?
Forgot to add I have a garmin 510 so not sure if any the quarq or vectors are compatible
Like the previous comment. I checked the website and it doesn’t list 810 on the list. I also have a element bolt which is missing too. Hope they are covered.
The main difference as I understand it for the 810 is the lack of dedicated/consolidated Cycling Dynamics data page on your unit (that the newer units have). This kinda explains it: link to support.garmin.com
But you can still get that data via data fields individually, just not with some of the pretty layouts of the newer head units.
Whereas for 3rd party head units, they don’t support Cycling Dynamics, so all the extra data points like Platform Center Offset, Seated/Standing time and so on you won’t get.
You will get the standard fields though of: Power, Power Balance, Cadence, Torque Efficiency, Pedal Smoothness.
Great. It’s the basic data I need. Thanks.
The vector 1 &2 reliability & durability was apalling. This wasnt just because of the pods anf was excaserbated by Garmin’s appalling customer service here. It got so bad that local bike shops refused to stock them because of the hassle post sale. Clearly on a review of a new product you dont know if these issues have been resolved but it would be fair to reference them.
I disagree. I have two sets of vector 2. Always reliable and robust. Any problems I’ve had Garmin have been helpful & responsive. They a quick to resolve any issues.
I’ve had them a couple of years and they are still working well.
I kinda agree with Nick here.
Everyone knows I’m not at all a Vector 1/2 fan compared to the P1’s. But if there’s a single thing I’ll give the Vector team credit for, it’s honestly support. Seriously, check out the forums or the responses of folks who have actually talked to support. Almost every instance shows the Vector team going far out of their way, way more than other Garmin groups.
There are plenty of things to criticize Garmin on, but when it comes to Vector, support frankly isn’t one of them.
The reason shops didn’t like Vector 1/2 as much was due to the number of SKU’s they had to stock. But ultimately, even that’s a bit misleading, because these small bike shops sold a crapton of Vector units, given how they rocketed towards the top of the Kona bike count. There was also the issue of shops not knowing how to install Vector with a torque wrench. Seriously, shops were worse than end-consumers here. To the point that Garmin originally put out notices to shops on how to install Vectors. You can see this in the comments of my initial Vector review where numerous LBS’s would incorrectly install Vector.
In any case, all that’s sorta old news these days.
Hey do you know if the release of version 3 will decrease the price of version 2? I’m thinking of buying vector pedals, wondering if I should wait til this decreases the price of vector 2 pedals
With the Vectors the crank length is set in the bike computer like an Edge 520.
Once set, are the Vector 3s then broadcasting the right power values to other head units, where you can’t set the crank length, e.g. Ambit2? Or will the Edge doing the math only internally and don’t store this setting at the power unit itself?
For this scenario the Assiomas got an app to set the crank length for head units who lacks this setting.
I believe the Garmin Connect mobile app will enable this.
Hi Ray,
So the big question. Vector 3 Vs Favero Assioma?
What would you buy for cost Vs performance?
Thanks Lee
Simply put for cost, i’d go Assioma.
For performance, if you find value in the Vector 3 Cycling Dynamics data, then obviously that’s the better bet. But in terms of accuracy, I consider both a wash.
I’m working on a post for a few days from now outlining all three options more deeply.
I currently have a Edge 810 and have on order a Hammerhead Karoo. From what I have read above I am screwed on Cycling Dynamics on both counts :-)
I have an edge 500, are the Vector 3 pedals compatible and what data can I expect to receive?
Thanks
You won’t get Cycling Dynamics, but you’ll get total power, cadence, left/right power, and off-hand I’m pretty sure also Torque Efficiency and Pedal Smoothness. It’s been a while since I’ve loaded one up and can’t quite remember when those metrics were added.
Looks like the revamped Vector 3 is very appealing. I wounder if the Shimano adaptor for Vector 2 would be compatible for Vector 3 or would another one come out?
No, the Vector 2 one won’t work. There’s not currently one in the plans for V3 (or at least, any public plans they’ll share).
Hello Ray,
I absolutely love your power meter reviews.
On http://www.fiets.nl
I found al link to a power meter accuracy test performed by:
International Journal of Sports Medicine.
link to thieme-connect.de
“…the mean deviations of the power meters were –0.9±3.2% (mean±SD) with 6 power meters deviating by more than±5%…”
Have you read this study? Could you comment on it?
Super short version:
Interesting attempt at things – and overall the right direction. But they didn’t maintain ownership of the units (kinda loaners), and didn’t track the models. So they’re all grouped together in many cases and we don’t know if it’s a Power2Max original (7 years old), or one from last year. Nor were they all static checked to ensure they were valid (meaning, since not owned, we don’t know condition).
I talked to the team a little bit, and it’s interesting work – but I think the above variables definitely impacted their study a bit. I like the structure overall, I just would want to see it performed on ‘known good’ units (meaning, not something sitting on someone’s bike unmaintained for 7 years).
Sitting unmaintained for a few years in some way is a good test in that people will keep using their power meters for awhile so would be good to know if they stay reliable. None of these should really need maintenance to still work right.
This ignores the consistency between units being important (one brand is new units, another is old) and older units not on the market any more may not be as good as new units currently being sold as the company learned their lesson on what didn’t work like the first gen quarks.
I’m more concerned about people donating/loaning units that were tossed aside for unknown reasons.
While I think it’s certainly an interesting study to see how things age, that’s a very different question to blindly comparing a 7 year old unit to a brand new one and not knowing which is which. Or comparing a unit 4 generations older to one that takes lessons learned from it, but groups them all as one brand.
After all, people aren’t going out and buying 5-7 year old power meters.
Hi!
Does the Vector 3 has a temperature compensation?
Thanks for a short reply.
We do perform active temperature compensation across the operating temperature range on the Vector 3 system.
DC great write up, as always. Can you explain why these will not work with oval rings? You had me drooling until I read the comments. Through discussions with the crank based systems folks, despite the fact that they don’t advertise it, their systems will provide data using Osymetric or Rotor non-round rings. Having just watched Chris Froome stare at his power meter for the last 21 days, while he pedals Osymetrics, there must be some hope for us squished oval folks.
Thanks in advance, from a devoted Osymetric lover.
Nope, almost no power meters properly support non-round rings, not even Stages that Froome uses.
About the only power meters that do properly support it are:
ROTOR 2INPower/INPower
PowerTap P1 Pedals
PowerTap G3/related hubs
WatTeam and Power2Max claim to support it, but I’ve never seen any evidence they do, I believe they misunderstand it. Others like SRM, Quarq, etc.. .don’t support them.
In short, it’s variable based on cadence, and so unless a power meter takes that cadence variability as it’s factored into angular velocity into account (and most don’t), it won’t be accurate.
Thanks Ray – I’m not sure if that’s on your comparison tool, but it’s made my decision on what meter to upgrade to a whole lot easier. I wanted one that I can use across bikes, and for race days, so it looks like it’s the P1 pedals for me.
Your use of the term “angular velocity” is not correct. The correct term is “rotational speed.” Angular velocity would take into account rotation of the crank as well as changes in bicycle direction and lean.
-ilan
Great review! I would have liked to heard about more about integration with other head units. The Wahoo Elemnt family appears to have data points similar to the cycling dynamics presented on the Garmin. Are there any significant differences in using a non-Garmin head unit?
Cheers!
Unfortunately Garmin hasn’t yet unlocked Cycling Dynamics for other 3rd parties. As such Wahoo can’t really display any of that stuff. Just the basics.
Hi,
Just wondering is there a possibility to connect these Vector3 units simultaniously to 2 different units like Edge 520 + Fenix 5(X)? Reason for this would be that Fenix 5 contain all the training information but Edge 520 would be beneficial during the ride and able to provide more detailed information about cycling.
I have understood that this would be the easiest way to cover this as you cannot combine ine training in 2 ynits in other way.
Br Mika
Yup, no problem. I do this on almost every ride right now (Edge 820/1030 and FR935 all paired to Vector 3 at once).
Great review! I’m about to buy a power meter for my road bike and deciding between Stages Super Record crank meter versus the Garmin Vector 3 which comes out to about the same price. Which would you recommend?
With the Super Record, that’s a left-only solution (Stages LR is their dual solution). Whereas Garmin Vector 3 is a dual leg solution. As a general rule of thumb I don’t prefer left-only solutions.
Hi Ray
As always – great review. On one of the pictures, dcs 0991, I think it shows sensor details for V3, one can see “Auto Zero” is set to off. Did Garmin just introduce auto zero offset fit the V3 there?
Hello,
I’m looking to get a powermeter on my bike but don’t have the 1000+ euros to put into it.
What are the limitations of the Vector 3S compared to the 3? and is an upgrade possible later on?
Thanks for your in deepth reviews (even if I’m more looking at your videos ;-) )
Cheers from Paris (still haven’t bump into you yet even if I running along the river too quite often… )
Gautier
I would have been interested in a further elaboration on: ” So why might you not want to use Bluetooth Smart with Vector 3? Well mainly you’ll get less metrics.” My intrest would be to use the Vector 3 in combination with the V800. Brand compatibility is an intresting test case as well, imo.
It’s mostly because there are less metrics on the Bluetooth Smart power meter standard. Not to mention there’s no Cycling Dynamics either on Polar. Said differently, it’s mostly just a lack of maturity on the BT power meter profile standard compared to the ANT+ one at this point. Of course, the ANT+ one has had a huge multi-year head start.
As part of my in-depth review, I’ll likely touch on it a bit for 3rd party compatibility over BLE.
Thanks. I haven’t found a list of supported metrics with either standard. Looking forward to the indepth review!
FYI there appears to be a rather substantial difference between LR44 (Alkaline) and SR44 (Silver Oxide) batteries. They are the same physical size, both will work. But given they have different chemistries there have different discharge curves and total capacity. I’d expect the LR44 to not last as long.
link to data.energizer.com – SR44
link to data.energizer.com – LR44
The SR44 seems to be what’s most commonly found in drug stores. Where the cheaper LR44 is what I’m mostly finding at Amazon. I think this explains my bad “luck” with Amazon LR44 batteries in other devices.
Just something to file away for the future if/when folks start seeing shorter battery life with cheap/Amazon LR44 cells.
which is the right one to use, LR or SR?
From the specs, I’d use SR44, the silver oxide version. Higher capacity and more consistent voltage as it discharges.
link to amazon.com
Garmin has no preference
link to support.garmin.com
They will both work. And in many cross references they are marked as identical, despite this conflicting with the standard naming convention.
link to en.wikipedia.org
But the specs are clear. And my personal experience with these cells other devices agree. When mine arrive I’ll look at what they ship with.
This difference goes back decades to my HP15C, for which the owners manual was clear:
“The HP-15C is powered by three batteries. In “typical” use, the HP-15C has been designed to operate 6 months or more on a set of alkaline batteries. The batteries supplied with the calculator are alkaline, but silver-oxide batteries (which should last twice as long) can also be used.
A set of three fresh alkaline batteries will provide at least 60 hours of continuous program running (the most power-consuming kind of calculator use ). A set of three fresh silver-oxide batteries will provide at least 135 hours of continuous program running. ”
Not sure it’s relevant with the Vector 3’s having such long battery life to start.
FYI, some background I found when trying to figure out why my digital calipers were going through the Amazon batteries so quickly: link to davehylands.com
When I had their older powertap, without the SR batteries, batteries would die every few days. When I had mailed them they had suggested that I get the sr44 batteries instead of the LR44.
The stated expectation for battery life is for an ANT+ two pedal system with cycling dynamics enabled and LR44 batteries.
Some details about Vector 3 battery life:
– Turning cycling dynamics off increases battery life
– Single pedal systems have a longer battery life
– SR44 batteries will have a longer battery life
– Bluetooth will reduce the battery life.
We are at end of September and still no availability in Stores :S
This German retailer now says: ” as per Garmin November delivery “.
link to powermetershop.de
Sigh.. I wish they would be in the stores already.
Will the Vector 3 pedals work as well with a Wahoo head unit, like the Bolt, as with a Garmin unit, like the 820?
Yes, though, no Cycling Dynamics at this time.
Garmin has the owners manual online now: link to support.garmin.com
Interesting to see how the pedal is assembled. The pedal spindle is self contained, impressive!
On page 2 in the manual, it says: The Vector system automatically calibrates after each ride.
Does this mean auto-zero-offset finally made it to Vector? Does anyone know that?
The power meter data can be inaccurate due to temperature changes affecting the strain gauges. Do the Garmin Vector 3 Power Meter pedals compensate for temperatures changes automatically or do you need to re-zero prior to every ride ?
Does the vector 3s version come with a just a single pedal or does it include a “dumb pedal” along with the sensor pedal? Also if using the dual sided vector 3 version, is it possible to only move one pedal to a second bike and use it single sided mode for the Triathlete who occasionally pretends to be a roadie?
Vector pricing seems to make sense. With so many people committed to Garmin gear, and the Vector finally looking good as well as working well, that’s enough excuse for many Garmin users to purchase Vector. Once Garmin has captured those sales, they can begin to adjust pricing to adapt to competition. So, they maximize ROI while keeping current customers in the fold, then adjust, perhaps a year later.
What about pedal life? Expensive to replace when the pedals needs replacement unless the power meter components can be used on a new set of pedals. What are your thoughts?
Any word on release date?
They obviously have some serious problems with their product !
Curious how/why you think there are ‘serious problems’? Because they’re a whole two weeks behind planned shipping date?
Do you believe me now ?
Ummm…you know they’ve been shipping for almost a month now, right?
Amm, where if no no ome can get it (just empty promises and delays..).
Except people are getting them. You can see folks in the comments with them here in fact.
The product is pretty heavily backordered though, and as usual, Garmin typically slow-rolls the first few weeks of production to minimize issues if there is an issue.
C’mon, really who is getting Vector 3 ???
They will not be available at least until next year (JAN), do you believe me now (my first comment)?
A reader forwarded me their shipping confirmation just last night actually, as they were excited about it. Units are going out. Readers here are welcome to post as they see fit (and others have already).
We are currently shipping Vector 3 systems to retailers, though a high initial demand for the product has created a backorder situation and caused some delays in Vector 3 availability. Production is well underway and we are working hard to fulfill backorders as quickly as possible. We totally understand the frustration while you wait to receive your set, and appreciate your patience.
Ray, did you do any testing with the Fenix 5 or 5s? As you know there are continuing reports of data dropouts with these two watches for Stages and Watteam Powerbeat powermeters. I would hope Garmin would make this work with their own stuff but they really seem to be having X-product coordination problems lately.
I’ve done a little with the Fenix 5 (but not the 5S or 5X). I haven’t seen any issues with it there, though I haven’t done a ton of testing on that unit. Mostly using Edge devices or the FR935.
The Garmin Vector 2 after some use developed an issue with bearing or pedal body play.
link to youtube.com
Has Garmin addressed this issue with the new Vector 3 ?
Vector 3 is a complete redesign in bearing, axle and pedal body. By previous made statements, bearings would also appear to be user serviceable.
These power meter pedals come supplied with a set of red Exustar E-ARCR2 Road Cleats with 6 degrees of float. Garmin market them as Vector™ Cleats. Has anyone had any experience using these cleats ? Are they durable ?
What are they like in comparison to Look Keo Cleats ? Will your feet disengage from the pedals during hard efforts ? Are they actually FULLY Look Keo compatible ?
From the three way shoot out:
“Garmin Vector 3, they use Look Keo cleats as-is, with no additional requirements. They also include a pair in the box too.”
.
The supplied cleats are not Look Keo Cleats. Have a look at the image of the Cleats above
in the review, they are marked ARCR2.
Vector™ Cleats: link to buy.garmin.com
Vector™ Cleats: link to evanscycles.com
Exustar E-ARCR2 Road Cleats: link to exustar.com
Exustar E-ARCR2 Road Cleats: link to amazon.com
EXUSTAR E-ARCR2 ANTISLIP CLEATS ( KEO COMPATIBLE ): http://www.exustar.co.uk/exustar-e-arc-r2-antislip-cleats–keo-compatible–134-p.asp
As you can see the Vector™ Cleats and the Exustar E-ARCR2 Road Cleats are the same.
The Cleats supplied with this product are Exustar E-ARCR2. The Vector Pedal bodies are
produced by Exustar.
link to exustar.com:
Are Exustar’s EPS-R cleats compatible with Look Keo Pedals?
Some Exustar cleats are compatible, some are not. Look’s Keo pedal range has become more varied. Always choose replacement cleats carefully to ensure compatibility. Using incompatible cleats is potentially dangerous.
Compatibility Guide:
EPS-R Look Keo-style cleats are compatible with all Look Keo pedals, including Blade and Blade Carbon.
EPS-R Look Keo-style Wide Beam cleats are incompatible with Look Keo Blade Carbon pedals.
Exustar Replacement Cleats for Look Keo Pedals: link to exustar.com
“The Vector Pedal bodies are produced by Exustar.” – Incorrect per Ray’s article.
Garmin claims that the included Exustar cleats and Keo cleats work well. Somewhere Ray commented that the Xpedo cleats from P1/Assioma work here as well.
You are correct, my mistake, thanks for pointing that out.
On page 2 in the manual, it says: The Vector system automatically calibrates after each ride.
Does this mean that auto-zero-offset finally made it to Vector?
@Ray
Can you confirm that?
The Vector 3 owner’s manual is correct. Vector will perform an offset after each ride. There are specific conditions that must be met in order for the pedals to determine a bad offset.
Im in the market for Powermeter, the pedals ones seem ideal. The only question i have is wear and tear. I presently pack my bike in the back of a truck, laying on its side. How durable are these pedals and pedals in general. Would it effect the reading, damage the pedals?
Possibly a very ignorant question but I assume I can use a smartphone with these? All reviews show a Garmin or another advanced cycle computer. Can I just use an iPhone in the interim?
You will be able to. Garmin had a self-imposed date of rolling out Bluetooth Smart sensor support by mid-October, but that also assumed they would ship by the end of September. I don’t know how the slip has impacted (if at all), those software efforts.
Either way, I suspect you’ll be able to soon after ship – since the main reason for including BT sensor support on Vector 3 was to handle indoor training platforms.
Hi Ray,
Would you have an idea, whether they work well with fixed gear? Or are there flaws to be considered with them?
I don’t know off-hand if there are any limitations there on Vector 3. I can try and find out.
I just wanna know your opinion, is it worth its price? Thx
I think it is.
In unrelated news, I heard from Garmin yesterday that they did start shipping, specifically, at Kona last week at the expo. They also started shipping to ship to other retailers/distributors as well.
I see Ray posted above that Garmin has started shipping.
Anyone got a pair yet?
Still waiting on my order.
Processing time on Garmin.com still showing 3-5 weeks which was the same for the order that was placed 3 weeks ago.
Hi Ray,
I have obtained Vector3 in kona and tried to pair with Polar V800.
However, my V800 could not find Vector3.
Have your V800 been able to connect with Vector3?
Vector 3 doesn’t yet broadcast Bluetooth Smart. They had planned to do that by mid-October, but that date has slipped a bit with the shipping date having slipped a bit. They shot me a note on Monday saying they’ll work to get me a new/updated date shortly.
Looking forward to hearing new firmware release.
Thanks for the review. I am confused between the vector 3s and the quarq d zero.
Pros for vector: easy to install and move around
Cons: however I will have to change my pedals. I am unsure on that.
Pros for quarq: it will just disappear within my current set up
Cons: not so easy to install and move around.
What are your thoughts?
Also Ray why do you prefer left and right power meters compared to left only?
If you don’t plan to upgrade from 3S to full 3, I’d go Quarq.
The challenge I have with left-only units is that they vary too much because you as a human varies too much. Things like fatigue and intensity will cause variations in left/right split. Which means that once they just simply double the left leg, it becomes more apparent.
I am reading here: link to buy.garmin.com that the V3 wont be compatible with 910XT !
Do you think its true or an oversight on the listing ?
It’s half and half. It won’t do things like Cycling Dynamics, but will do regular power.
How much data can we actually see if we dont use Garming computer? I have Wahoo Elemnt Bolt and I use strava for my app.
As a rider of 110kg will this cause a problem if I purchase ie invalidate warranty or effect readings or worse.
Thanks
Chris Smith
link to buy.garmin.com
WARNING: The maximum weight limit of the cyclist using the Vector system is 231 lbs (105 kg).. Cyclists over this weight limit risk personal injury and property damage.
Could you please explain the rider weight limit specified by Garmin. This does not make sense to me, in particular, a powerful rider outputting 2000W during a standing start is putting a lot more force on the pedals than any > 100kg random person during normal riding (not from a standing start).
Thanks,
-ilan
From my understanding, they pretty much picked a specific weight limit as their max target demographic, and then did engineering testing based on that. Their goal was based on ensuring they could hit that limit with that individual putting out serious power (I don’t know what the exact wattage ultimately is/was).
They didn’t say “How far can we push this until we break out’, but rather, picked their target weight limit and validated they could hit that.
Thanks Ray for taking time to answer my question.
I don’t envisage hitting ridiculous wattage and am assured, by your reply, that I will be ok to use them.
Thanks again and keep up the great reviews.
I just asked Garmin support. The chat ended like this:
Matthew:
Explanation of force does not exist. That is what you are wanting.
-ilan
Ok, but this weight limit still makes no sense. Force on the pedal doesn’t depend on weight unless you’re out of the saddle, and it is proportional to power and inversely proportional to cadence. So a large force to the pedals is not done by a seated heavy rider but a powerful rider out of the saddle at low cadence.
Anyway, I don’t see how any amateur heavy rider could ever apply more force to the pedals than a strong track like this guy who is supposed to be 90kg, so under the Garmin weight limit.
-ilan
As another example of why this weight limit makes no sense, just compare wattage numbers produced by professionals with those of > 105kg riders. I will use the standard power to weight ratio table.
Marcel Kittel supposedly weighs 85kg, and according to the table, has functional threshold (power sustainable for one hour) which is at least 5.5 * 8.5 W = 467.5W. To achieve the same power, a 115kg rider would need to have a power to weight ratio of 4.06, which puts him almost at USA amateur Cat II. Now I have seen a lot of amateur races, but I’ve never seen anyone who weighs 115kg (250+ lb. !!), and certainly not in Cat III or Cat II races (ok, maybe Jerry Malone).
Note that Kittel is not Froome, so does not climb at high cadence, and is climbing slowly for the gearing used by professionals, so is probably at a fairly low cadence.
-ilan
Rider weight limit is related only to the allowable rider weight and not impacted by input or torque on the system.
Hi Ray,. I am thinking that the Vector 3 are the pedestrian of choice however I will be using either a Garmin 810 or Hammerhead Karoo head unit. Is the Vector additional cost for it with these two head units as I won’t get the additional cycling dynamics. What would you buy with this setup. Bike is a Canyon AERoad.
Wear and Tear on these Pedals. What people opinion of these ? maybe someone who has had the 2’s before.
I often lay my bike in the back of a truck, laying on its side. so the pedals would be touching the bottom floor of truck, though usually on a soft mat. Whats the chances of this damaging the pedals?
I think it’s honestly a bit tough to know at this point, meaning, it’s too early.
That said, the current set I’ve had for about 8 weeks now, and I’ve beaten the crap out of them. Transferred them a bunch, and generally thrown them about and just ruffed them up. They seem fine, and look quite nice still.
But again, come back to me in a year and see where we are.
Thats great answers my question. Im more concerned of breaking them and would likely be more carefull than that. Thanks.
You should worry about the cranks: link to youtube.com
-ilan
That’s interesting. I’ve seen that happen to a rider while in the same race as him. I was riding beside him and all of a sudden his left leg came away from the bike with the left pedal and crank attached to his cleat. He managed somehow to stay upright. I was looking at the crank after the race to see what had happened. The crank axle had broken right in the middle. I think it was a Shimano Ultegra crankset as far as I can remember. So it does happen but fortunately these occurrences are rare.
At this point with late time to order and receive the new vector 3 are worth to buy the vector 2 pedals? and according to you at what price? regards luca
That accident had consequences, all French professional teams stopped using Campagnolo. I’m not sure if they ever used them ever again, that’s 35 years ago.
-ilan
Has Garmin provided an updated release date?
They started shipping over two weeks ago, at Ironman Hawaii (Kona).
I’ve looked online and either they’re not listed for sale or only pre-orders.
That’s because they’re likely backordered. Being almost exactly two months since announcement, units are slowly trickling out.
For example, Clever Training has been shipping out units this week from pre-orders, based on date of order.
I am thinking to buy a 2 sided set, but hoping I can transfer onto a second bike (equipped with a standard Look Keo pedal) by just swapping one pedal over to speed it up.
For that to work, I have two concerns:
-Simplicity for the dual sided vector to easily switch to single sided power (i.e. double the output) when there is no second vector pedal detected
-Similarity to a standard Look Keo/KEo2Max, in terms of geometry? (q factor, stack height)
Any thoughts?
You can’t split the pair and have it on two bikes, if that’s what you’re looking for. The left pedal is the master, and thus it has to be there to transmit onwards. So I’m not sure there’s a lot to be gained by splitting the pair unfortunately.
I just have Keo’s floating around, and no Keo2Max’s to compare to. :(
Thanks for the reply, but that’s not quite what I meant…
As an example: Bike A has both pedals (L& R). I want to occasionally take the master L pedal and switch it over to Bike B, without also switching the R pedal, and then use bike B in single leg power mode. When I’m finished, I would switch L pedal back to bike A, and benefit again from dual leg power.
I don’t expect to get any reading from R only.
Yeah, you can do that. It’ll basically act as if the battery is dead on the right leg and just double as you noted. I only know this works because I’ve done a ride or two with a dead battery on the right side.
That said, having just swapped it on a bike a minute ago, it really only takes 15-30 seconds per side to do.
Thanks for the clarification
I’m basically too lazy to swap two pedals between my good weather and bad weather bikes. Being able to swap just one pedal and still get some kind of output would be appealing.
Now the only uncertainty is whether there’s any kind of geometric peculiarity of using a vector pedal on the left, and a regular keo on the right.
You receive a non power pedal for the right side.
Got an email today from Evans Cycles, my Vectors have been delayed until 16th November :(
New Email this morning says 26th November… tick tock tick tock….
Hi DCR,
Can you please share some insight from you testing? Does the V3’s need to be manually zero offset before every ride? Or can the pedals now do that automatically (like i.e. P2M)?
In advance, thanks for you reply
I bought the Vector 3’s from Clever Training early in the pre-order and have been riding on them since last week. They are awesome! I wanted them for travel but only if the data was comparable to my other power meters. After getting nowhere with the P1s, I was a little apprehensive about the Vector 3’s but now I’m quite happy with them.
Unfortunately my data never lines up as nicely as Ray’s– there must be something he is doing that I’m not doing. Probably, it’s the series of hard sprints after each pedal change to “settle” things and ensure the threads are tight. In any event, I wanted to know if the tightness of the pedals made any difference. Also, does the thick washer improve the data or make it worse? To find out, I rode a series of short stable 8-10 minute efforts in ERG mode on a Computrainer and compared the Vector 3’s against a Quarq DFour and a PowerTap G3 power meter. I also made sure to recalibrate all three power meters after each adjustment (i.e. at the start of each 8-10 minute effort). The result? Pedal tightness and washer thickness doesn’t make a huge difference. A few observations:
(1) The Vectors line up with the DFour’s most closely. While that might not seem like a surprise given drivetrain power losses, the PowerTap often reported wattage that was a good deal higher than the others (not expected).
(2) Using the thick washer that comes with the Vectors seems to make the data line up a little more closely than using the thin washer that came with my Quarq. Not by much but a little.
(3) Oddly, I got the best results from not tightening the pedals too tight (not what I expected).
Two other things that I noticed seemed to correlate with better data. First, use plenty of grease on the threads. When I used no grease originally, the data was a lot more scattered. Second, on my Forerunner 935, my Vectors got picked up a lot better if I made sure to turn off every other power meter in the watch settings.
@ Ken Nakata,
Can you share some light on auto zero offset? Does the V3 do that? Or are you promted that before each ride to ensure accuracy?
In advance, thanks
Hi Thomas,
Nope. The Vectors don’t prompt you for that. I just assumed it was a form auto-calibration. It appears to support auto zero offset as I can toggle the setting in Garmin Connect when I have the pedals connected to my iPhone via bluetooth).
–Ken
The prompt actually comes from the head unit. It’s an option under your power meter settings.
Auto zero offset is finally enabled…!
Read more here: link to forums.garmin.com
Hey Ray, is that something that shows up in the Edge devices? I don’t see a setting for it on my FR935 and my FR935 has never prompted me. Thanks!
Definitely on Edge devices. I don’t have a FR935 in front of me at this exact moment, so can’t double check it there.
Hi Ken,
I just saw your comment.
Does this mean that you do not need a separate head unit for calibration?
Just use your iPhone with Garmin Connect, connect the pedals via BLE and set the “Auto zero offset”?
That would be great news and definitely a big plus compared to the Assioma, which is not able to calibrate with the app.
Chris
Hi Ken.
Thank you very much for your detailed real world report/experience with the Vector 3’s, most appreciated.
I have a pair of Vector 2’s that are inconsistent from ride to ride, eventually this got so bad that I gave up on them and now have a DFour which I swap from bike to bike. This has proved to be a fantastic/reliable power meter but it would be nice to be able to get the same consistency/confidence by just changing pedals.
So I am a little bit weary of buying the Vector 3’s for fear of a similar problem to last time. Having now had your pedals for over a month have you noticed any ride to ride differences between the Vector 3’s and your other power meters? Any further insights/thoughts into the washers or tightness of fitting the pedals or any other factors which seem to affect the reported readings?
Also do the cycling dynamics feel accurate and consistent? This was another area where mine would vary from ride to ride and sometimes just felt wrong and would be way out of with what my legs/body was saying to me.
Many thanks for your help and I look forward to your reply.
Kind regards
Karl
Hey (European) Folks-
Just as a super quick heads up, since a number have asked over the last 60 days, Clever Training Europe/UK finally has listings now for the Vector 3/3S. As always, for Euro folks* you can use the DCR discount code of DCR10BTF to get 10% off the price, plus of course free European shipping. All of which helps support the site. Oh, and they’re in stock today.
Euro Link: link to clevertraining.co.uk
And on the US side, that links’ been there forever, but is available here: link to clevertraining.com
You can’t get 10% off on the US side due to Garmin restrictions, but you can get 10% back in points with the VIP program (link to dcrainmaker.com). And free shipping. All of which basically just makes you awesome.
Oh, and for those wondering on the in-depth review from, that should be up next week*. Spoiler: I don’t see any issues. Secondary spoiler: You can actually find most of my recent Vector data throughout various review posts on other products in the last few weeks.
Thanks for the support!
*Unless The Girl has a baby today or the next day or two, in which case that might delay things a few days.
Thanks Ray! :) :)
Just ordered it today. I really hope the stock was up to date, since in Europe no-one else has them yet.
Same here – immediately ordered with a 10% discount – LOVE IT – and are now waiting for dispatch. Would be totally awesome to get the pedals next week, as no one else have them in Europe right now.
PS – Ray, congrats with the coming child. I hope everything goes well.
Hi Thomas, how about yours? Still processing?
I have a feeling that the in stock flag was a site bug :(
Still processing… I wrote them an email and waiting for reply. I’ll let you know their feedback…
Same here, also wrote a mail :)
In talking with them a few minutes ago, I think there was an error there on the stock listing (which is what I followed what I posted above). They’re sorting through it. I should have an update for you shortly, and they’ll send out a note to folks that ordered as well with the updated arrival date (sounds like just next week). Sorry about that, and thanks for the support!
Any clue on US release date? Nobody seems to have them
Thanks
RAcycles and Clever said they should receive some by end of this week, but mid November seems more realistic.
I hope our order is part of delivery plan, since I now cancelled my 3 weeks old order at Evans…(!)
I got a note from CleverTraining that they expect enough units in the week of Nov. 6 to fill all orders they have now. I will report when I get the shipping notice next week (hopefully).
Thanks for your exceptionally detailed and in-depth reviews, Ray. They certainly helped me make my choice, as well as educated me a bit. Just placed my order with CT Europe. Let’s hope third time’s the charm for Garmin.
Any news on the implementation of BLE yet? To start off, I plan on using the V3’s with Trainerroad on my iPad Pro, as we’re quickly heading into the “indoors only” season in Sweden now. The extra cost of getting ANT+ to work properly on newer IOS devices, with the Wahoo dongle and Apple’s original lightning adapter, is not insignificant. Likely I’ll be getting an Edge 1030 come springtime.
Thanks for the support!
As for BLE, I’ll shoot over an e-mail now and see what the date is. I know it was pretty high priority for exactly what you stated.
Now, for some esoteric voodoo black magic reason, of which they’re unwilling to investigate, Clever Training UK cancelled my order. Leaving me with 8500 skr (£765) of my money just floating around in bank limbo, waiting several days (possibly weeks) to bounce back.
I wanted to support the site and take advantage of the discount. But after several unpleasant mails with CT UK, this has been such a terrible experience, I think I’ll just wait until Wiggle starts selling them.
I buy stuff off of UK-based cycling retailer all the time. Because frankly, all the Swedish ones suck. Never had something like this happen to me before though.
Very disappointed with Clever Training UK.
Hi Sandra-
Thanks for the support, I do appreciate it! I checked with CT UK about what happened here, and it sounds like there was a snag in the fraud detection piece. While rare, this does occasionally happen and thus why someone had to get involved manually to review it. I know that can be a pain, but they did escalate it to release all funds as quickly as possible. Sorry it didn’t work out – but hopefully next time it’ll be smoother.
Thanks again!
P.S. – On BLE support for Vector 3, I tried out the beta version today on a ride with Zwift and it did well (including properly doing total power, versus just left/right only pairing like some other BLE pedals do). Garmin says they plan to submit it to the Bluetooth certification realm on Friday, and they expect it to take about 2-3 weeks to get approval, at which point they’ll release it publicly (so ideally by end of month).
Honestly CT UK is ridiculous. They never came back to me, modified the availability to December now on their website. Already paid them decent amount of money. I can’t reach them on the phone, neither on e-mail.
Ray, can we have some contact to them? Would be good to know if they can send the pedals as they promised in ealry november or not and if not…I’d like to get my money back and would buy vector 3 later next year when it will be on stock…
CT’s communication and customer care is 1*…the site support and 10% looks great , but this service honestly..sucks.
Ray,
We need your help here.
I did also write them, twice, but without any answer in counting 5 days now. That sucks… :-(
Hi Frank and Thomas-
I’m not sure what’s up with communications there on your specific e-mails, but I talked at length multiple times yesterday and people were getting answers back and forth. I have it on the radar first thing in the morning when they get into the office (US side) in about an hour.
As for Vector availability, I can confirm that further units for CT UK won’t be arriving till December now. This basically falls into two buckets. First is that last week when the listings were put up, it incorrectly listed in stock, versus what it should have been as this week. Then this week Garmin UK came back to CT and told them of further delays for stockage, pushing things to December. It’s not clear why. Note that US and UK are handled as separate entities from a stock standpoint, due to the way Garmin structures things.
Sandra’s hiccup was purely due to a fraud alert being triggered, and while that is frustrating, it’s largely automated as to why a given transaction gets flagged.
In any event, CT UK should be sending out a mass e-mail today to all backorders of Vector 3 with the exact current status.
Thanks for the support!
Thanks Ray, really.
One thing I would expected on our orders is clear communications and option to offer a refund or anything. Since paying the full amount early november and receiving the pedal MAYBE in December (honestly I don’t beleive it anymore due to the early October, late October, early November, …and so on changes). I’d rather get my money back and buy next year when the stock is back to normal..till that point I survive with HR based training :)
Frank
Thanks Ray
Much appriciated though not the info I had hoped for. This is not your fault. I’m in no rush with the pedals, so I’ll just hold on to a great price for the pedals, once they arrive.
Let’s see what CT UK writes to me later…
I do not understand what you mean with “beta version”.
Will I be able to upgrade the pedal with a new firmware to fully support BLE standard for Zwift? Can I do this over an iPhone or do I need a Garmin head unit for this?
My understanding is that you’ll be able to do it via Garmin Connect Mobile. In my case, I just did it with an Edge unit since it was simpler for them to send me the files.
Are the Garmin vector 3 pedals compatible with the garmin 920xt? if they are how well do they transmit the data, i.e speed and accuracy and if not what garmin unit would be suitable that wouldnt break my bank balance, thanks
Yup, they are!
However, the FR920XT doesn’t display Garmin Cycling Cynamics on it (on the screen). But it does record it all for later analysis on Garmin Connect/etc… Personally, I rarely find much value while I’m actually riding, so I think this is a perfectly reasonable compromise, especially since at the holidays you often find the FR920XT sub-$200.
Does it display real time power numbers on the screen at all? Or is it also only visible later when you have connected to your phone or computer aswell thanks for the reply
It display real-time power just fine. It just doesn’t display the Cycling Dynamics specific information. That’d be things like seated/standing time, platform center offset, and power phase.
However, aspects like left/right power, cadence, and total power are shown no problem in real-time.
Sounds like a perfect solution for me! I need an approx 23m left pedal crank insert to clear a damaged ankle. Do you think the Vector 3 will work screwed into a steel insert?
Hi, Ray:
Vector 3 looks great and your article provides helpful information. I’m in doubt about which powermeter purchase, wheter Vector 3 or still waiting for the promised shoe-based power meter from Luck (link to luck-bike.es). Have you information about the Luck gadget
I haven’t seen any information that suggests Luck is set to start shipping (or already shipping). Everything I have is kinda the perpetual “almost ready to ship” that they’ve been in for the better part of 2-3 years.
Thanks for your answer. In 2016 I saw the prototype at the Unibike and they also said me that “it will be available this winter”…
Can you go through the calibration process etc from a forerunner 935? or do you need an edge to configure the pedals?
Works just fine with a FR935 from a calibration standpoint.
Got a mail today….. :-( :-(
Dear Clever Training Customer
Thank you for your recent order for the Vector 3/3s Pedal Based Power Meter. We regret to inform you that these units have been unexpectedly delayed and will not be available to ship the beginning of November, which was stated at the time you completed your order. Based on the most recent information provided by Garmin, we look forward to fulfilling your order before the middle of December.
Please note, pre-order product availability can regrettably change and is completely out of our control, however we will continue to work closely with the manufacturer and provide you with weekly updates, every Wednesday, until your order is fulfilled.
We truly apologize for the unexpected delay and for any confusion or frustration this may have caused. Should you have any further questions concerning your order, please feel free to contact the Customer Service team at sales@clevertraining.co.uk.
What really bugs me a bit is: if it had been a pre-order they would’ve charged me when stage is prep. for shipping.
Now they charged my card and the money is gone before Christmas :( not saying I won’t survive , but not fair..especially based on their policy.
I received the same CT email today as well…
Dear Clever Training Customer
Thank you for your pre-order for the Garmin Vector 3 Pedal-Based Power Meter. We truly regret to inform you of a sudden and major delay in production as indicated by the manufacturer. This regrettably has caused your order to be delayed. Based on the information we have received from Garmin, we estimate fulfilling your order the middle of December. We realize this is a sudden change in the information provided last week and are very sorry to have to provide such undesirable news…
I asked Garmin in the Netherlands and they told me that they will start shipping from the 13th of november. But it will be limited..
I asked why webshops have no stock untill mid december, but that’s the agreement between Garmin and the shops. And has also to do something with the moment of purchase by the shops.
So the Vectors are coming but we have to be patient…
I just received a similar email form US Clever Training saying that an unexpected manufacturing delay has pushed expected order fulfillment out to mid December. I appreciate the weekly communication from CT, but I am still bummed by Garmin’s delays because I was hoping to get in at least a little bit of outside riding before going to the trainer for the winter. As a former manufacturing quality professional, I’m glad Garmin isn’t shipping the product if it isn’t ready, but I wish they would have identified the delays earlier so I wouldn’t repeatedly get false hope.
According to Garmin Netherlands they start shipping on the 13th of november.. Very limited…
Hello, Ray,
Has the coupon disccount for Clever Training any limit in time to use?
Nope, totally open (on the European side) – 10% all the time.
Ordered one (dual) and used the coupon.
Many thanks Ray!
Let’s hope for quick delivery ?
Thanks for the support!
Any updates on CT’s inventory? I got the same email mentioned above about the additional/further delay.
They’re actually continuing to get units and ship them out, I know a crapton came in on Wednesday or Thursday and shipped out.
But, the message was mostly because they have low confidence in what Garmin will give them in the upcoming weeks in terms of exact unit shipments/allocations. As always, CT tends to be super-conservative on ship dates until they have tracking numbers in-hand with invoices showing exact units on the way.
Thanks Ray!
I’m patiently-ish waiting… I know the delay is not not on CT… Like everyone else, I’m just eager to get my paws, or feet rather, on the new tech goodness.
My pedals shipped late last week and will be here today. Ray was right, they seem conservative on what they promised.
Hello all:
As the Spanish Garmin technical support service has said me via email, the warranty period for all the Garmin devices purchased in UK is of only 1 year, instead of 2 years, as is usual in all others countries in the European Union. I suppose this affects the devices purchased through Clever Training. Anyone has other info about?
Garmin service Netherlands told me the same story…
I’ve asked for clarification as well.
Garmin (Europe) will not deliver untill the beginning of january 2018…
They told this today to a webshop owner I know… :-(
Regarding those with questions about availability – we are currently shipping Vector 3 systems to retailers, though a high initial demand for the product has created a backorder situation and caused some delays in Vector 3 availability. Production is well underway and we are working hard to fulfill backorders as quickly as possible. We totally understand the frustration while you wait to receive your set, and appreciate your patience.
Any idea when the Vectors will be available for purchase on the garmin website?
Same question, if all is “ok”; if you already shipping (dont know to which customers if just few persons in the world have it) why is not avaiable on official page? We are deep in Q4!
Garmin USA changed the delivery into 5 – 8 weeks. See their website.
But on the Dutch version it is still Q4
Here’s the yesterdays email from Clevertraining.uk…
Based on the most recent information provided by Garmin, we look forward to fulfilling your order before the middle of December.
Sigh…
Read my previous comments and dont believe to others. Ray just wants that you order as much as possible and every week than you will get email that it was postponed as for last two months :(
I’m trying to figure out your angle Mark. Numerous people here and others have shown that Vector is shipping. I don’t really care what you order. Heck, there are more expensive power meters here than Vector – so in some odd theory I’d rather you order those.
I’m not sure why you’re so stuck on believing Vector isn’t shipping when everyone is telling you it is (across multiple places/forums). Not as fast as people want, sure, but units are going out every week from Garmin to retailers, and retailers to real life users.
Did you actually order something? And if so – via what retailer on what date?
Then please explain why on garmin eu official page you can not order it? It’s now 2 months of delays, every additional week new delays and only few persons actually have it. Which EU retailer acctually have it, how you know it?
Your promotion of clevertraining eu was not fair, as a lot of users order it i hope they will get it “next week” but after that “soory we can not deliver it etc”….There were too many “fails” and empty promises in this vector 3 comments group.
Mark,
Garmin webpages are always the last place to get their devices. Was the same with the Fenix 5 and the 935 from when I was looking to buy.
DC is not the man to blame here. Garmin have clearly got themselves into a mess here and DC has tried to help as an intermediary. The lesson, dear DC, is to continue with your excellent unbiased product reviews and leave the manufacturers to sort their own messes. The Marketing guys are never going to admit to a problem. I’ll wait till I can try a pair in my LBS.
Dont understand me wrong – I dont blame him for what already happened and I completely agree with you.
Greg is correct. We’re focused on shipping all of our current inventory to retailers and won’t turn on Garmin.com orders until we have enough on hand inventory that allows us to both keep them stocked and fulfill direct orders from customers. You’re seeing varying lead times across Garmin.com locales because the timing can vary by region due to a number of factors. Again, we are working to get caught up with demand as fast as we can and appreciate your patience!
Shawn, please, please, please make as fast as possible Vector 3 MTB version, I do not care which brand MTB cleats are used, but we how are looking for some confort (easiness to walk…) would like to purchase these as well!!!
link to lookcycle.com
link to lookcycle.com
These are ok for walking around and work with the Vectors (1 & 2 anyway so presumably with 3). The downside is cleat angle is non-adjustable – at least on the keo-city I have.
K
But why is the delivery time on Garmin Europe/Netherlands website still Q4? The retailers in the Netherlands are told that they don’t get any until the beginning of 2018.
That’s not far….
…because Garmin EMEA in general has the coordination and timeliness of a drunk chicken.
I’m not entirely kidding there. As any retailers or customer can tell you, the ability to order things on Day 1 at launch for Garmin products in Europe is always wonky – often taking weeks till things are available to order (where in the US, it’s the exact second a product goes live). So getting dates updated for Garmin EMEA would inversely follow a similarly slow process.
The challenge is that EMEA basically runs their own sales ‘house’ here in Europe, and Garmin US has surprisingly little control or influence over much of it. So when things seem weird with Garmin Europe, it’s almost always out of clumsiness, and rarely out of malice or intentional coordination.
Dave – thanks for the review. I’ve enjoyed my Vector 2 pedals, but having just bought a new Kickr, I am seeing 10+ W difference between Kickr and Vectors. Are the Vector 3 pedals likely to be any closer? I want to have consistent indoor and outdoor power and don’t want the hassle of changing peddles between indoor bike and outdoor, so was thinking I’d need to bite the bullet and get a 2nd pair of Vectors so I have one set on each bike. That just leaves the question whether the two sets of Vectors will match up. Any thoughts?
Also, what were the Vector 3 pedals like swapping on and off bikes? I find with the current pedals that once they go on the bike, the first ride they give fairly low readings so I always work on the basis they need a ride to “bed in” before I can rely on the readings.
A 10w difference between Vector and KICKR would be expected (on say, 200-250w), ideally with Vector being 10w higher. Drivetrain efficiency loses tend to be in the 2-3% range, plus the stated accuracy of each unit in the +/- 1.5-2.5% range.
Swapping Vector 3 between bikes takes less than 60 seconds in most cases, assuming it’s not crazy tight on (using a standard pedal wrench). I haven’t seen any bed-in issues with Vector 3 (unlike Vector 1/2 and other pedal units). I’ve been constantly swapping between bikes on purpose.
P.S. – Not sure who Dave is. ;)
Thanks for quick reply – brain fuddle on Dave!!
Sadly the 10W difference is the other way round – Kickr is reading higher than Vector 2 pedals… I’ve done half a dozen rides, pulled second-by-second power data from each one and matched the two profiles up to work out the average difference and consistently getting 10-15W more on Kickr. Really annoying as I’d been hoping to be able to keep the Garmins on the outdoor bike and use the Kickr PM for the indoor one..
Hmm, for that I have no real good explanation. :(
For Vector:
– Check that you have the crank length entered correctly.
– Make sure you’ve done a static zero calibration.
After doing a zero calibration, the Edge head units will display a number that is the calculated torque on the pedal. You can hang a (accurately known) weight from either pedal and then validate that the torque measurement is correct. Ray has the procedure described somewhere, and it’s also available through the Garmin knowledge base.
If you see a consistent error from either pedal that is larger than the expected error in the power meter (and also outside of your uncertainty in the weight you’ve hung), you can tweak the scale factor (slope) to bring it closer to your expectations. However, if the measurement is within your expectations then you need to look at the Kickr as the source of difference between the measurements. Other than spin down I’m not sure what methods are available to adjust or validate its performance.
Hi, I would like to mount Vector 3S on my Kettler Racer 3 Spinner bike for indoor trainings. Could you please tell me is it mandatory to have cycling shoes (i.e. the ones with cleats) in order to Vector properly measures a power ? Does the Vector depend on locked-on cleats in order to measure power correctly ?
Or I can just ride barefoot or with my everyday sneakers ? (I will not)
I know the question is funny/silly but I would like to invest in power meter first and later maybe in shoes. I’m not cyclist and don’t intend to be, I’m just using my spinner for improving cardio after knee injury but would like to track the progress via power.
Thanks
Sorta it’ll work. Meaning, it’ll capture that power just fine.
But honestly, I wouldn’t focus on that. Nor would I spend the money given what you’ve got today. Instead, I’d focus on more simplistic power gathering – and look at something like the PowerCal. It’s down to around $50 these days, and will give you the gist of what you’re looking for and work with various 3rd party apps.
Just my two cents!
Could you please just tell does PowerCal pair with Garmin Fenix 5X (I suppose it does via BT) and can I get out of it my FTP and cycling VO2max readings (as it is basically a HR monitor chest strap) ?
Thank you very much
Yup, it will on all accounts there.
A) It’s a HR strap
B) It’s a power meter of sorts (or from an ANT+/BLE technical standpoint, simply a power meter).
Cheers.
Hello:
I’m some doubts about http://www.clevertraining.co.uk. The user can change the currency of the web, so if GPB is selected the dual leg Garmin Vector 3 costs 850 £ which are today 953.9 € (link to xe.com). But if I select EUR as currency the listed price is 1000 €. If apply the Ray coupon the 10% discount is applied in both cases using the selected currency. But if I purchase the pedals from other European country different to UK and I select GPB as currency, which price will be applied? Are the different prices a bug in Clever Training web?
Do you know any about it, Ray?
Weird, I’ll ask what’s up. It *may* be a situation where a company requests that if the price is shown in a given currency, it has to be at a given/default price. I know Wahoo is that way. No, it’s not logical. It’s just what the manuf requests.
Ok, I checked here. It is indeed exactly what I suspected. Garmin has joined that band and is now showing in the RRP price for that currency.
However, you can pay in whatever currency you want to get whichever deal is most favorable for you. :)
Thank you Ray. Some days ago, we talked about the warranty offered by Garmin for products purchased in UK. It is 1 year instead of the usually 2 years for the rest of EU countries. Do you know if the pedals purchased through http://www.clevertraining.co.uk have 1 or 2 years warranty?
Thanks
Sorry if this has been asked already but I’m setting up my new Vector 3 pedals and seem to be able to use a regular 1mm spacer to keep the chain the requisite 2mm from the end of the pedal spindle when in the smallest cassette ring. With that said, the q factor now seems a bit narrower than it was on my vector 2 pedals. Its there anything to support my propioceptive sense (and increased heel rub)?
Another solid review- thanks. About to go down the path of Madone 9.9- LBS suggesting crank based (Quarq D4) for power. I am using a Garmin 1030 head unit and like the concept of cycling dynamics- any thoughts on which way to go? Quarq I have now, can’t fault it but with a $600 difference in favour of Garmin, leaning towards pedal based power.
Both are good. If you want a power meter today, Quarq might be better. Whereas if you’re willing to wait a few weeks (or whenever stock catches up), then Vector probably gives you more flexibility for bike swaps and such. I see no differences in accuracy.
What about real consistency ? comparing to a sirius unit like p2m and srm ?
the garmin vector 2 had issues with every time there was a software update for edge 520 units
i bought them september 2015 and worked just fine comparing to my p2m wich i use with both powermeters for checking
after june2016 520 upgrade, garmin vectors readings somewere between -30 to +30 watts. i gave up trying to figure thme out….
every time garmin changes a softwere for edge we have to check if the readings are correct ? whats on with the vector 3 models ?
As part of my in-depth review I will have data comparing it on nearly three months of riding to:
Quarq D-Zero
PowerTap G3 Hub
Power2Max
Wattbike
Wahoo KICKR3
Elite Direto
And a bunch of others I can’t think of right now.
I haven’t seen what you’re seeing in terms of any shifts (and to be honest, not even on previous Garmin’s either, unless you didn’t calibrate after major temp shifts or putting unit on/off, or if not tightened).
Wuuuup
I have a package in the mailhouse from UK. It must be V3….!
I ordered from Clevertraining with DCR discount, so I guess they’re shipping them out by now…
My order status say complete :) as well..I’ll ask if any tracking info is available
Got mine yesterday from Evans Cycles UK. My first PM \o/
Got mine today :-)
(delivered fom CT.uk)
BTW
Ray, what about that in-depth review…? Must be about time now, right?
Working on it as my train whisks across the country-side…
Hey Folks!
Just as a heads up for those subscribing in the comments, I’ve just released the Garmin Vector 3 in-depth review. You can find it all here: link to dcrainmaker.com
Enjoy!
As usual for preview posts, I’ll be closing the comments here in the next day or so. But of course, feel free to post any Vector 3 comments on the full in-depth review. Just helps to keep things tidy for people. Thanks!
Hey Ray, was wondering if you happened to try to pair with a garmin 910xt. not in the compatibility guide but need to start somewhere with the power meter, not sure I can spring for the head unit and the pedals all at once.
I didn’t, but you’ll get total power/balance/cadence, but not Cycling Dynamics.
Thanks for very useful (& sometimes amusing…) info’
I race a lot of crits and end up grazing the ground with my pedals as I pedal through turns. Based on the photos, it looks like this pedal might decrease the ground clearance. I have 2 questions. Without actually holding these, it’s hard to tell if this is the case. If you should clip a pedal, would you be concerned about heavily damaging these pedals? It looks as though I’d be hitting the battery port opening so perhaps a pedal based power meter system isn’t the best solution for me. Do you think this is a valid concern?
Check out my pedal power shootout post here: link to dcrainmaker.com
I show the ground clearance angles for each one. Some might have issues with the clearance if they pedal through the turns (as noted in the comments).
What are the recommended operating conditions? I.e. would cold and/or wet weather be potential issues with these pedals? I’m imaging not, but would like to confirm because I didn’t see anything immediately obvious on the Garmin product site…
Hiiii DC,
I just got my Vector 3.
Have you experienced your pedals not spinning freely out of the box?
It’s VERY different from my V2, which spins freely…
The V3 gets stuck in whatever angle I put them….
Garmin says that this static friction disappears at 80rpm…
Do you buy it ? Have you heard about it ?
Thanks
Congrats for everything you make.
A few people have reported that (though not everyone). It’s not clear to me if any of those peopel that reported that reported back what happens after a ride or so.
I know that on all three sets I’ve used up till this point, all spun freely. I have my final set that I ordered myself that shipped out Friday, should arrive in a couple days.
Mine does not spin freely, but actually I like it.V2s was way too much.
Hi Ray,
Shane Miller posted a video on his YouTube channel with some very troubling info regarding the accuracy of the Vector’s (I say troubling, because I ordered a pair, so this directly affects me). Here’s a link to that video: link to youtu.be
Later on in the video, the power values match up perfectly and there’s no 10% difference. What’s do you think is the issue here?
Yeah, I saw that in one of his rides, not sure why. He showed one of my sets having an offset, but it was only 8w on 258w, which is 3% which is exactly what I’d expect between Neo/Vector 3 due to drive train loses.
(Side note: Realized I forgot to close this post to new comments and redirect folks over to the full in-depth review for future comments, which is here: link to dcrainmaker.com)
I do that anytime I publish a review, just to keep things tidy.